The Beginner Photography Podcast

From Creative Burnout to Capturing the Joy of Work with Brian Doben

• Raymond Hatfield

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#568 Brian Doben is a celebrated commercial photographer whose journey into the craft was driven by pure instinct and a love for observing life—what he calls the “greatest romance” of his life aside from his marriage. Key themes throughout the episode include Brian’s unexpected entry into photography after realizing his first passion, professional cycling, wouldn’t pan out. He credits his success to a willingness to follow instinct, embrace humility, and prioritize listening—to both his own creative impulses and to clients.

KEY TOPICS COVERED

  1. The Role of Instinct and Human Connection in Photography - Brian recounts how his instinct led him to pick up a camera during a period of personal uncertainty. He has since trusted his intuition not only in what he photographs but in how he forms connections with his subjects. Takeaway: Success in photography relies as much on empathy and actively listening as it does technical skill.
  2. Professional Development and Navigating the Photography Industry - The episode discusses Brian's transition from student to professional, the value of assisting, and how humility and a willingness to start from the bottom are essential for long-term career success. Doben highlights lessons learned through real-world experiences—such as working in demanding client settings and building resilience.
  3. Personal Projects and Creative Renewal: The "At Work" Project - Brian shares the origin and evolution of his personal project, “At Work,” which helped reignite his passion after creative burnout. He describes his process for finding subjects, the importance of curiosity over agenda, and how personal storytelling elevates his portraiture. Real-world anecdotes illustrate how life experiences, vulnerability, and setbacks inform creative vision.

IMPORTANT DEFINITIONS & CONCEPTS

  • Instinctual Photography: Trusting one’s gut feelings and spontaneous creative urges rather than rigid planning; essential to finding authenticity in both subject matter and method.

DISCUSSION & REFLECTION QUESTIONS

  1. How can following your instincts guide your creative or career choices in photography?
  2. What strategies can photographers use to build authentic connections with clients or subjects, especially in high-pressure environments?
  3. In what ways can personal setbacks or life events inform and enrich your photography or storytelling?

RESOURCES:
Visit Brian Doben's Website - https://www.briandoben.com/
Follow Brian Doben on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/briandoben/
“At Work” Project and Gallery -  https://www.atworkproject.com/
“At Work” Book by Brian Doben – https://www.amazon.com/At-Work-Brian-Doben/dp/195196330X

Learn What Camera Settings to Use in our free guide!
https://perfectcamerasettings.com/

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Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Brian Doben:

A lot of the younger photographers don't wanna do is to assist. And I understand it's not as glamorous, but if you wanna have a longevity in this industry, it's important to understand the steps. You have to understand its own system before you throw it away. You have to understand dynamic range of a chip before you decide if you wanna over or under expose or what your iso should be. You have to know these things if you really care about this craft.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield, and today we're chatting with editorial photographer Brian Dobin about capturing portraits of people who are passionate about their work. But first, the Beginner of Photography podcast is brought to you by Cloud Spot. With Cloud Spot, you can impress your clients with a beautiful gallery that is easy to view, share, and download on any device. You can control image size at a watermark and download limits too. So grab your free forever account today over@deliverphotos.com and only upgrade when you are ready. I think it's easy for some people to look at photographers and say like, wow, you have the best or the easiest job in the whole world. You know? Especially with people like editorial photographers, you get to hang out with celebrities, go to cool locations, and get paid to quote unquote press a button. And I think it's, it's easy to look at a food truck worker, a painter, a mime, a hairstylist, a cartoonist. And maybe say the same thing, right? Like, wow, you have such an amazing job. And while they're not necessarily easy jobs, they require somebody who is passionate about the work that they do. Today's guest, Brian Dobin, has been photographing people who are passionate about their work for years and has just released a brand new book called At Work. And as you'll hear in this interview, I'm a big fan of the book and Brian's work, and I encourage you to check it out too. In fact, there's a link in the show notes to check out, not only his book, but also a beautiful video that, Brian shared with me of him shooting and connecting with some of his subjects. I know that's a big thing for a lot of photographers. You wanna see how other photographers work so that you can get some ideas and bring that into your photography. So be sure to check that out in the show notes. For the links, there's also a link to Brian's Instagram as well where you can see some more of his work. And before we get on into this interview, I just want to take a moment to give you a round of applause. I applaud you for taking the time to listen to the Beginner Photography podcast and to do something for yourself and your creativity and not just waste your time doom scrolling or watching tv, or being bored. You're making the right choice towards being the person who you want to become. So again, round of applause. Alright, with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Brian Dobin. Brian, when did you know that photography was gonna play an important role in your life?

Brian Doben:

Well, it's a little bit of a story, but essentially I wanted to be a professional, cyclist. I wanted to ride in the Tour de France and that life, that seemed to not be my, ending in the sense where, or it wasn't gonna be for me just genetically. I didn't have what it took. I was in, a state school in New York called SUNY Purchase, getting a liberal arts degree or starting to, and just had an instinct to pick up a camera and just try something new. I was starting over in terms of what I thought my future would be, so I didn't really know where and what I would be doing. And, it was a rainy day and I just decided to go out and take a photo and see what happens. And it literally turned into, the greatest romance of my life, aside from my wife. But it's been truthfully, it was love at first sight.

Raymond Hatfield:

Tell me more about that instinct that you had. It had to have came from somewhere. Did you photograph much at all when you were a kid? Did your parents always have a camera around? Why do you think you just picked up a camera as opposed to anything else? I.

Brian Doben:

Raymond, that's a great question and I don't know the answer'cause truthfully, I had no artistic thoughts, in terms of what I, you know, I never, sketched, I never took photos. I didn't pick up a film camera. I never went to museums. I loved walking around, the streets of Brooklyn, which is where I'm from. I loved biking through New York City, and just observing, it was an unconscious drive, I guess, within me to just absorb everything around and then just. don't know. Honestly, I don't know what it was that drew me to picking up a camera, but I just, I had this instinctual feeling and instincts have always been something I lived by up until then and continually is that I don't, I try not to overthink things I do at times. It's, we're humans,

Raymond Hatfield:

It's human. Yeah.

Brian Doben:

head, but I try to really follow what I believe is the path for myself. And I said, I just, I borrowed a camera and I just went for a walk with a friend and we just started walking around and I saw this leaf with a, a one raindrop on it. The photo's right next to me here, matter of fact, it's not the greatest photograph, but it's literally. the first photograph I took and it, was just, I said to myself, if I can make something of this moment, there's something here. I went to the dark room. I asked a classmate how to, I didn't have a photo. I wasn't taking a class. I just asked him how I developed film. it just started. It just, I couldn't believe that I was able to take my ideas and bring them to life. I never knew that I had a voice. just thought of myself as, um, in the machine, if you will.

Raymond Hatfield:

Really, but you were going to school for a liberal arts degree. So like what was your intention?

Brian Doben:

At the time it was, either psychology or law. That's what I thought that I wanted to do. and I quickly realized that neither one filled my bucket. and I just started to completely obsessed to the point where I had to transfer out of the school because I had taken by my junior year, I had taken photo class, I had taken every class that a master's student would get. There was nothing left for me to do at the school. I would spend days on end. I was hospitalized for spending so much time in a dark room. I just was all in everything about me.

Raymond Hatfield:

You were hospitalized from spending so much time in the dark room from what? Inhaling all the chemicals I.

Brian Doben:

yeah, yeah. I had a, a, I guess a poisonous level in my, bloodstream from working, or in my oxygen. It was a whole thing. It was very dramatic. I was, sharing a dark room with a, a student and, she had covered the black and white chemicals, I was doing color, so I was just using the dark room to, to eliminate onto the paper and then go to the machine. While I was so accustomed to the smells, I didn't even smell chemicals and the vent was off. And I remember waking up on the floor, scratching at the door because I had passed out and I was immediately rushed to the hospital. It's pretty dramatic. but that's kind of my, I would say that gave me street cred right there.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. For sure. I've never heard anybody share a similar story, so that definitely gives you some street cred. So I guess the next question is, was your first thought maybe I should give this up or, oh, I gotta get back in that room.

Brian Doben:

I didn't even think about it. I just went right back to it. There was nothing, along this journey except for one moment where I thought it's time to try something different. but I've been in love with this from day one. It's the only thing I know my truth. And, I'm very, very fortunate to, call myself a professional photographer.

Raymond Hatfield:

That is amazing. So, okay, let's now talk about that transition from student into professional photographer. what was that like? Did you go straight out of, of college? What happened?

Brian Doben:

I'll tell you, it was a moment in which I really got a handed, reality.'cause in college a lot of times, you know, give you this kind of idea that you can leave here and just become a professional and go in the world. I went to New York. My girlfriend now my wife, we moved to New York City, which is where I'm from. and we couldn't even get an apartment because at the time, it was very difficult for renters to get an apartment. There seemed to be an abundant of renters to apartments. So they were able to choose perfect candidate for the apartment. this was 1996. and so we were sleeping on couches for the entire summer. Couldn't get a job, couldn't find a place to live, and realized I'm just another person back in New York. This is not like, guaranteed anything. I. and through and friends, I was able to find my first assistant gig, which was sweeping the darkroom floor of a photographer that I admired. And that's where it really started. I went from being a student and having a big portfolio to sweeping a floor then printing for him to then packing his equipment before he leaves and then going on the road with him. So each one of those steps took weeks, if not months, to get to the next step. And it was such an important learning lesson, and it was such a great reset for me from an ego perspective especially, but also it gave me the ability to really learn beyond just the technical, which is what you learn in school now. It's real life. And now you see how lights are used, how lenses and cameras are actually utilized in, in the field. And then on top of that, how to work with clients, which I think most photographers really don't understand. ones.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's'cause we get so excited about the, we have this idea, oh, I see something in this world that I can capture. You learn the tool and then you think, quote unquote, my work should speak for itself and people should come to me. But that's just as we know, not the case as time and that there is a human element to photography and that photography is a service as more so than it is a product. So learning how to work with clients is incredibly important. So before we get on into the second phase of your life and talking about your new book here, what is one of the most important things that you think, new photographers need to know about working with clients?

Brian Doben:

Listen to their words. and respect it because, they have a point of view whether they truly understand to bring that to life. It's important to understand this is their story, that it's their baby. They're handing it to you. job is to elevate it, make it better than they thought it could be, but keep it within their truth. it's critical for us to keep our ego at check understand that we are a craftsperson who is using our art to bring it to life, but it's not all us. It's a collaborative experience. Right or wrong. the dance with art and commerce. It's the understanding that, that yes, you're getting paid and you could be getting paid a lot of money or very little. You still put the same effort out, you still put the same, time into it. And our job is truly to take that baby that seed and watch it flourish. That's really what we do. And that's, really the way my experience after 27 years, in the industry is, is that's how you have repeat clients, is for them to feel heard.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hmm. What does that look like in, in an editorial sense? Because correct me if I'm wrong, I know that you've worked with some large national, international brands before. so how does that work? Let's just take, apple or Chase for example. They don't come to you. They have another company that comes to you like an art director or somebody else who comes to you, finds you, to do the work, and then now you have to listen to them and hope that they listened to their client correctly. Is sounds like a game of telephone.

Brian Doben:

unfortunately the, the paradigm has shifted quite a bit and it seems as of the past, unfortunately, oh, quite a while now, the agency's voice is, becoming less and less and it, the client is overpowering the agency. And that's a really dangerous, we're in a dangerous place because

Raymond Hatfield:

How so?

Brian Doben:

the days of old, there was the client who would sit, you know, I'm talking about now we're on set, the client who would be there, but they don't really say much because now they've signed off on it. Now they're just letting their professionals do what they do. Now, unfortunately, that line has been crossed and it seems as though there is no barrier. And so the client is standing with the art director or creative director, or executive creative director, speaking directly to me, about their ideas rather than it going through the natural filter, which used to be, and it is very inefficient client to a account person to producer within the agency, to the producer of my shoot to me. So there was all those buffers. A lot of it's wasted, but there was a reason for all of that. And it's now you're on set dealing with agency and client directly. and it's a really, it's just the world we're in. It's not gonna change. And so we have to accept it and just really be collaborative. I was on a project, years ago now, I was in London at the Natural History Museum photographing for Bing the web server. And they wanted to do this big shot of the whale skeleton. It's a very famous skeleton, blah, blah, blah. So they were doing a TV commercial and they were doing some stills alongside, and I was doing the stills and the client walks up to me and the image, I loved it. And in the end, it actually, it's what ran. But the, this is a great example of listening. The client came to me and said, I'm sorry, I don't like this image that you're doing. I said, that's okay. I said, what is it you don't like? And she said, I don't know. I'm not a creative, but I was sent on this shoot. I just don't like it. I said, okay, that's very fair. Let me find something you might like. So I kind of gave her a few different angles to kind of get a sense of what she was liking. And then we went for it. In the end, she felt respected and heard, which is what we should be doing, she ended up choosing the image that I had done from the beginning. So it's just the process. Is it frustrating at times? Yes, because we're wasting our time, chasing our tail when we should be making it better and better. But it's also really, like I said, it's listening to them and making sure that they're heard and that their point of view is respected and and taken into consideration.

Raymond Hatfield:

that can be difficult. I mean, I know just from shooting weddings, which obviously doesn't have the same amount of weight as working with, say international brands,

Brian Doben:

I disagree.

Raymond Hatfield:

they can be argued, but like, I think it's hard working with people who oftentimes are not as visually literate as us as photographers, and we kind of have to act as this cipher to figure out what is it that you're trying to tell me and how can I deliver on this thing that you're not able to clearly communicate. and I think that that's probably the mark of a professional, just somebody who has the experience, somebody who's been there, somebody who's had to, I guess be quote unquote battle tested, to do that. And that only comes from experience. You know, we can't read about it in the book and suddenly know exactly what to do next time or watch a YouTube video, but it has to be experienced. And I'm glad that, glad that you have a lot of that to share with us. So,

Brian Doben:

Well, and Raymond, on that point, I think that's the critical part that a lot of the younger photographers don't wanna do is to assist. And I understand it's not as glamorous, but if you wanna have a longevity in this industry, it's important to understand the steps. You have to understand its own system before you throw it away. You have to understand dynamic range of a chip before you decide if you wanna over or under expose or what your iso should be. You have to know these things if you really care about this craft, and that comes from learning, being on set as an assistant on some level for some time. There's no time limit and there's, there's no minimum or maximum to the time, but you have to give it that time so that when you're in those situations, you know how professionals handle it. one wrong word, it's over.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm

Brian Doben:

matter how good the image is, if you're not playing the game, you're not part of the team.

Raymond Hatfield:

mm.

Brian Doben:

And it's important to understand that, it doesn't make me a better photographer. It gives me the experience to handle more situations. And after all these years, I mean, I don't know of a situation I probably haven't witnessed on some level. So it's important to really put yourself in as many scenarios as possible so that you could then handle it one day yourself.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's beautiful. Brian, I got a copy of your book at Work, your new book, So first of all, let me just say thanks for, for having that sent over. It is a wonderful book to look at, and I love looking at, photo projects that there's something, in say, commissioned work, right? Like, I can look at a, a whole book of wedding photography, but like, if I'm not connected to any of these people, it's just beautiful images and that's it. But then when somebody brings a project. And then they share it to the world. Just a personal project, something that they wanted to do themselves. It has a different feel to the images, and I have such a hard time putting my finger on exactly what it is, but it's that quote unquote it factor, you know? So looking at your work, there's this liveliness to it. There's this element of, not so much joy, but, maybe appreciation for life. Like, in the subjects that you're photographing, it's, they love that they get to do what it is that they're doing. And I think that a lot of people can look at photographers and say, their life must be amazing. They must love every day that they go to work, because all that they gotta do is set up some, you know, some lights, a camera photograph, some fancy people. But I was fascinated to learn that in the intro to the book, that that wasn't the case for you. So tell me about this shoot that, you share in the book that you had in Nashville that kind of started this whole project.

Brian Doben:

Well, essentially what happened was I was in Nashville doing an editorial shoot, with a country artist, famous country artist, Keith Urban, and wonderful guy easygoing, kind of the best scenario for photographer. And because you're working with someone who's just collaborative and I had already been a professional for 10 years, a little bit more than that. And had already been doing travel, have traveled to all seven continents. As a travel photographer, I did celebrity, I did fashion, but I didn't do me. And so that night my wife I called her from my hotel room and she, um, since I, how'd the shoot go? And I said it was fine, and she got all nervous'cause it's just, you know, she always wants to make sure that things were okay. And I said, no, the shoot went well. I said, but I don't, I'm not having fun anymore. This isn't fun. I'm just stamping out products. I don't have a voice. I feel disconnected from my camera, my art, everything from myself to be really fair from my, I didn't know who I was in a sense. I felt like an imposter. And so I had this list of ideas I wanted to do that had nothing with photography. It was a whole laundry list. And every single one, she said, no. like, that's not who you are, and we had recently I'd had a baby. So there's that responsibility of, okay, well you can't just run from what you're going through, you can't run from it. You have to face it. So she had been with me since college, so she knew that I used to do portraits. I used to shoot eight by 10. So very slow process. A lot of talking. And she said, why don't you just go out and photograph some people again? Go back to what you used to love to do. And I was scared shitless'cause I thought, oh God, is really vulnerable. Like, I've done projects before trying to get work, but I'm being asked by my wife, assigning me a project, which is just go back to what I used to do. the first question is, what is that?'cause I was kind of lost and then I realized I just need to stop thinking, pick up my camera go back out. And so I, at the time was working quite a bit in Nashville and my local assistant, I called and I said to him, Hey Joel, you have any recommendations of people that I could go photograph for no reason, I have no assignment, I just wanna go do some portraits. And he said, yeah, this woman, she owns this taco shop. It's relatively new. It's really cool. It used to be a taco truck. And a local, one of the big famous musicians kind of came and said, listen, you're too good for just this. You gotta have this too. So she went from just a simple taco truck to a booming line out the door a. of business. So I said, okay, I have to meet this woman. She was kind enough to meet with me. We had the most wonderful conversation in the front of her taco truck. We're eating tacos, we're laughing. And I went back after the day and I thought, God, that was so much fun. really enjoyed myself. thought, oh shit. Did I take any photographs? Did I do what I went out to do? And I looked back,'cause, shooting digital. And I went through the files and I, oh, this is actually really, I don't know, there's something here. I'm, I'm connecting to this. I'm seeing what I've been wanting and yearning for for a long time, which is me in the photos, I'm seeing my my truth, come out. And that's really how it began. It just began with just an honest reset for myself with no intentions. I had zero intentions of it becoming a project. I had zero intentions of it going anywhere. It was really to refill my heart. It was truly to refill my heart. And 13 years later, I don't know, six, 700 shoots around the world, all I paid for, I can't tell you how amazing this journey has been and what it's done for me, both most importantly what it's done for me and my family, but then what it's done for my, the business has been really good too. But it's really, it refilled my soul. And it gave me, gave me the belief,

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. The belief in, in you behind the camera.

Brian Doben:

belief in me behind the camera, belief in me.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Doben:

importantly, it gave me. first time, a feeling of I have something to offer, whether it's a photograph or just talking to someone. There's something inside of me that has worth and value. And that's the thing I think photography, the magic and beauty of it is the image could be interpreted in any way. So your truth is gonna be interpreted by people, but it's your truth that you're putting out there. It's your moment, it's your beauty. And you're not doing it for the intentions of getting a, like on social media. You're not doing it to get a job, you're doing it'cause it's all you know how to do. It's all you can ever imagine doing.

Raymond Hatfield:

So how did this turn into the idea of, or I guess the, the concept of at work.

Brian Doben:

So I started kind of playing around. I, I was in Nashville for a few days, then I went home and I looked at it and I was thinking a lot about it. And I was up for a very big job for an oil company. It was a global campaign. It was a big one. And I lost it. And it was right before Christmas. and I thought I had it. It was down to myself and one other photographer, other photographer's, great. done the campaign before. It's common clients will go to their safe place. They've done it. So they went with him I was devastated. Devastated.'cause I really was thinking this one's happening. It was that close. and I thought to myself, you know what, this is a pretty heavy loss and financially. So what am I gonna do with it? so I, I thought about it and I thought, you know what? Screw it. I'm gonna put all the chips on the table. We had some money in the bank, not a ton at that point. And I said to my wife, I'm gonna go off and I'm gonna go cut a record. I'm gonna go cut an album. And she's like, what are you talking about? You're, you know, you're not a musician. I was like, no, no, no, no. And it, this is what happened with me. Sometimes I go into these analogies that make no sense to my wife, and then it makes sense. But I might as well just not have used the analogy. I should have just said it. Years before I had this amazing, wonderful black and white, printer, Jim McGarvey, McGarvey, or McGarvey, oh, it's been so long. was, Steven Klein, Steven Meisel, Annie Ovitz, Avedon, Irving Penn. Those were his clients. That's who he printed for. I mean, he was that iconic. He was on the, the Meat Packing District, in New York City. And he said to me one day,'cause he, I had to meet him and basically get inter a portfolio review before he would print for me.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow.

Brian Doben:

And he chose to do it, which was incredible. He said to me once, you know, photographers are the laziest artists. He goes and he took out pictures of Irving Penn, Avadon Marielle, and Mark Annie Leitz, and said, look, they do the same thing every time. It's a formula. It's a formula. He goes, musicians go into their into the recording studio all the time and they cut new music that no one ever hears. But it's because they're constantly exploring and trying to get their voice to another place. This sound to another place. How does that sound work with this voice? And whether it works or not, doesn't matter. They're always hungry for that. He goes, why are you guys so lazy? do, you know, I mean, this is what he said. He goes, Avedon everything on gray, Irving, Penn, everything. The light comes from the same angle every time. He made all these comments'cause it was like inside baseball kind of comments. And that stuck in my head. So years later I said to my wife, I'm gonna go cut an album, meaning I'm gonna go. something that no one is asking me to do. No one's expecting from me. I'm not reinventing the wheel, but I'm gonna find who I am. So I booked a ticket to, it was, I went first to India, Mumbai, and then I went to Tokyo and I had basically hired local production to help me find people to photograph, to continue this project that I'd started in Nashville. There was no name to it. It was just a project. And then while I was there, it hit me, these people are at work, love what they do, it started to all come together. And that's really truthfully how it started. I put all, all our chips on the table.

Raymond Hatfield:

love that story so much'cause there's this element of like self-awareness that you know, what it is that you love in an image being photographing people who are doing what they love. Right. Doing interesting work. And again, when I go through your book, there's a lot of interesting jobs, right, that people are doing, but sometimes there's not so interesting jobs. There's just a regular job and people are bringing a level of, of excitement, of accountability maybe for the skill that they're doing to this work. So, how do you go about finding people in these roles? Do you have a idea of the role of the jobs that you want to capture? Do you get a lead on the type of person? How do you find these people to photograph?

Brian Doben:

It goes back to instinct. A lot of times I just will have an idea. My studio manager who's been with me on this journey from day one, can attest that I come up with shit that is just like mid november, early December. I need to go to Alaska in January. I don't know why, but, and let's make it happen. And then we really work as a team to find people to tick certain boxes. I try, I think, don't really actually consciously think about it much, but I think what it is, it's like I find the pillars of the place I'm gonna go, and then I allow for the real magic to happen in between. It's who they know. They might have a recommendation and it just snowballs. But the pillars are there. There's a frame already there. So like I have a safety, but it's really finding those other people. It tends to be done before I get there, just for the sake of efficiency I'll find out is, you know, is Bo Oh, Bob says Mary would be great. We contact Mary. We have that conversation. And then Mary might say, oh, you have to meet my friend Louisa. That's really how it comes together. It's an energy and the more, I've done it and the larger the body of work has, it's grown to, it's that much easier for people to sign on. I mean, I, I think in all of my shoots since day one, I've probably been rejected maybe three or four times. Like

Raymond Hatfield:

Really.

Brian Doben:

people are really excited because they feel that energy in the passion. I'm gonna go all the way to you to celebrate you. And that's really what it comes down to. There's no hidden agenda. There's nothing that they have to do. They get the images, they can use them for marketing, they can, you know, whatever it might be. They are part of my journey. And I let them know that right from day one. And really at the end of the day, who has an issue with that? Who's gonna be like, well, I don't want that. Everybody wants to be recognized and heard and appreciated. And I love being part of that. Truly, it's, it's incredible.

Raymond Hatfield:

So I can think of a lot of people who don't love their job or don't bring passion to their job, right? There's a lot of people who go to their nine to five and they collect the paycheck so that they can do something else on the weekend. But again, I mean, it seems like the people who you're photographing truly take pride in their work or they truly enjoy their work. And so now, like, what it sounds like you're telling me is that you go to these people sight unseen, but just having a, a simple conversation with them, what over the phone to determine if they're gonna be a good fit for your project. Have you ever done one where you're like, oh, this person is bringing nothing here.

Brian Doben:

Yeah, there have been a few people who I believe they had all the right intentions, but they just, they were scared. They, and they let that take over. love that challenge. I then will take it, make it less about the work and more about the person. So I'm still striving and I'm still trying to, I'm searching for that, that thing. Look, not everyone loves what they do and the people that love what they do, really hard work. It doesn't make it easier, but they are doing what they're passionate about. I love photography. There's nothing else I wanna do, but, ain't easy. And it's really, there's days where I am really frustrated, but I have to put myself in check and say, but I, I chose this. what I love. And I would say to people who are yearning to do something else, do it. Because you get one chance here, we get one walk and it should be the most glorious walk. It's not easy either way. It's one thing if you're making, so much money and you're like, look, I know that I'll never make that as a potter, but I love pottery and I do it on the weekends. Wonderful. If that, if you can balance it, I think it's more important to find the thing you love and bring you have into it. and it. There's no better jobs, worse jobs. It's what you love to do. And that's, I mean, I don't know. I think what you, you, you had earlier talked about living in life. Those are very important words to me because early on in my journey with this project, I was in a near death situation where I'm a cyclist and a woman attacked me with her car and I was hurt very bad.

Raymond Hatfield:

attacked you with her car.

Brian Doben:

Yeah. Yeah. random act of violence, happens to people. And I got very, I got injured. it, it was very bad. I, you know, front teeth removed, holes in my face and neck. I have a traumatic brain injury. I forgot I had a daughter. I had no use of my hands. I was hurt. It was such a reminder of how quickly things can change and a reminder of the brain and how delicate it is, the ecosystem of our bodies. So important for me to live each day. And I don't mean in the sense of, well, I hope I'm alive to live each day to embrace and honor it. Not every day am I perfect about it? But it's really about honoring each day because it, it could end. And I don't live in fear. I live in respect for the time I have. So the time I have here, I want it to be the best it can be.

Raymond Hatfield:

Geez. Wow. Suddenly there's a lot of things that I was complaining about earlier that suddenly don't have as much weight at all after a story like that.

Brian Doben:

have weight. Listen, it ain't easy. Life is hard there's a lot of shit. And I said to my daughter years ago after my accident, she had a little boo boo and she said, well, my boo booo doesn't hurt as much as yours.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm

Brian Doben:

true. Your boo booo hurts just as much as mine.

Raymond Hatfield:

mm.

Brian Doben:

we all have our ups and downs, right? I. What's most important is that you try to find balance with it all.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Doben:

I listened to someone recently who said, I don't look for happiness. I look for peace within myself. I thought that was the knowledge right there shared. know, it's finding peace in all of those storms, whether it's a creative idea that you're working through or it's something in life that's just, hitting your heart. It's trying to find, navigate yourself through it.

Raymond Hatfield:

That is about as motivational as it gets right there. I appreciate you for sharing that story. That is, I know that a lot of photographers out there have reasons why they want to shoot. Right. reasons for me, I, I always wanted to, when I first started, I wanted to get into family photography. My dad had passed away when I was just a few months old and never really, I never got to know him. And I always looked at friends with like large families and like there was. There was some envy there, there was some, maybe not jealousy, but like there was this desire, I kind of wanted that, so I, I had this idea that I would get into family photography so that I could kind of surround myself with that. Turns out that's not what I loved at all. But, I know that how important it is to use our life experience to find the thing to, to capture and to photograph and to, to spend our limited time on. I, I appreciate you sharing that, and that was good.

Brian Doben:

and I appreciate you saying what you did because what you just shared with me is what my experience has been through this whole journey of at work and actually beyond this project, even just my day-to-day commercial shoots, editorial shoots. It's having that human connection. It's, the photograph is secondary. And I say that to clients as well. It's a secondary in the process, the most important thing is for us to have a connection because if the connection's there, the photograph will come.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Brian Doben:

You know, as a professional, you hand me a camera, I don't even know how or why, but it's so secondary to me. I don't think it's just there. It's an extension of me, the camera. So I'm capturing it unconsciously, but it's our time together, that is what brings that image to life. And you sharing your story of your childhood and your loss of your father is and has been a fundamental and a foundation of who you are, as much pain as that had brought you or as much pain as I've gone through, all for a purpose at the time. No. We don't wanna hear that, and that's fine, but it's part of the human experience. And so when I work with people on the outwork project or even just commercially, I try to find where did it start? And typically, Raymond, it's a similar story. Something triggered something that occurred. It's interesting to me. There are some people who are not even aware that that occurred, right? They're just like, they are so out of their own body that they're not enough or comfortable enough to go that deep. But I bring it out and we just talk. And all of a sudden they'll say, oh, I never thought of that. I never thought that my grandmom make knitting at the kitchen table why? Now I make sweaters.

Raymond Hatfield:

When looking back, it seems so obvious to connect those dots.

Brian Doben:

it's obvious to me'cause

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Brian Doben:

my

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm sorry. Yeah. From the outside.

Brian Doben:

say that, or, or, or, or the person, and this is a true story, the person realizes that power, that that brings them the emotional power, but then the power, it brings them to be more passionate about what they do.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hmm.

Brian Doben:

Because they're like, I'm doing this because of you, because you gave me that moment. It's a, yeah. And so sharing what we do, as photographers is critical in capturing the moment.

Raymond Hatfield:

One of the biggest things, that I think new photographers struggle with when photographing somebody is how do I get them to feel comfortable in front of the camera? Because you can tell as you said, If you have a connection with somebody that's gonna come through in the photo, if you don't have a connection with somebody, that is also gonna come through in a photo. So one of the questions that I knew that I kind of wanted to ask you is how do you build that credibility? How do you build that trust in somebody? But I think that you just answered it right there, and it's a genuine curiosity in who that person is and trying to learn more about them. Is that an accurate representation?

Brian Doben:

Yeah, yeah. And'cause I say it doesn't mean every time I've done a shoot, I've been doing this a long time. There's been times where there's no connection.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Brian Doben:

that used to happen a lot with celebrity when I did celebrity shoots previous to the project because, I was never angry or frustrated with, I was frustrated, but I wasn't angry at the talent, the celebrity, but I felt like they were so guarded and it's for a reason and I understood that. I've been in the game. I knew why it's like that, That's why I felt so separate from the work because I wasn't part of it. I think to really answer the question, I would say you first, as the photographer, have to be comfortable in your skin. You have to be willing to bear your truth to some level, to disarm the situation. It could be with a joke, it could be making small talk about something that has some meaning. For me, I remember years ago I worked for a very famous celebrity photographer, and, he said, never go in complimenting the celebrity for what they've done.'cause you've now, you've put yourself in that place where you're just, you're just a fan. Talk about something that's real. Talk about something that you see that triggers something for you. Talk about what's your favorite fruit, bring them back to the level that you're just, two people having a conversation. You're two kids in the sandbox. And so when you're working with people, which is what I do, I just try to humanize the moment. I don't hold the camera right away. I wanna talk to you, I wanna look you in the eyes, I want to smell you. I wanna get a sense of the energy you're giving off. And then I'm going to try and compliment that. And if I have to disarm it, then we take a little bit more time before the camera comes out. I did a shoot, this is a good, a good example. I did a, a cover shoot of Monica Lewinsky, several years ago. And she came in and she was dry mouthed. She was nervous. This is several years ago, but not during the scandal. This

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure.

Brian Doben:

know, in the past say seven years. And she was nerv. I could see it. She was nervous and everyone said, you have 15 minutes, we're shooting at the Greenwich Hotel in New York City. It was a cover. I said, no. We're not shooting it and everyone's freaking out. And I said, I want her to have something to drink and something to eat. So Monica and I sat across from the table of where we're gonna photograph her. It was just a nice, simple dining room table in a suite, in a hotel. And we started talking, not about scandal. I just wanted to know who she was as a person. And we started having a really wonderful conversation. And I saw slowly she was breathing and I saw that she was eating and drinking cause I was there for her. I wasn't there'cause of the story. The story had nothing to do with the scandal, but everything has to do with the scandal for her. So

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure.

Brian Doben:

that guard. And so my job, more importantly at that moment photographing her for the cover was to make her feel safe because she didn't feel safe. And that then created for I think, a really nice image of her and it made the cover and we kept in touch. And there's a connection now. because these are people, these aren't just subjects, these aren't, you know, I would say it's the same thing. If you're a landscape photographer, space you're photographing is sacred land. So you're in the soul. You have to pay respect the environment you're in and you have to thank it, I believe'cause I do, whenever I photograph, whenever I've done landscape, or I did a whole series on drone landscape type of arty stuff, I thanked the land for allowing me to have this. I literally did because I know that it's not just me that, that got that moment.

Raymond Hatfield:

I honestly have so many questions, and I'm trying to figure out kind of what direction to go here, because we're getting towards the end of our time. But, screw it. I'm just gonna ask,

Brian Doben:

Yeah, go for it.

Raymond Hatfield:

You're given 15 minutes with somebody, somebody whose time is closely guarded. it's very important to them. You made a decision to say, no, no, no, we're not gonna shoot this right now. She needs something to drink. She needs something to eat. I wanna sit down and chat.

Brian Doben:

Mm-hmm.

Raymond Hatfield:

there's two directions that you could go. One, somebody shows up, that's who they are. You got a job to do, you need to do that job. But on the other side, you're now taking a gamble of saying, we might go over the 15 minutes here,

Brian Doben:

Mm-hmm.

Raymond Hatfield:

to make Sure. that I build a connection with this person because the person is more important than the photograph. What if that had went south? She only had the 15 minutes and you weren't able to deliver what you were commissioned to do, like, is that the risk that you have to play in your head, or you're hoping that she's gonna give you that extra time?

Brian Doben:

I would say that I grew up in the streets of Brooklyn in the seventies. So I would say that I'm street smart, very street smart, book smart, not really. I don't read books. I read people, I read, I read this, this situation. I knew that it would be okay. I didn't have a question in my mind, and I even, of course, if her people said, no, she has to leave now, that's a different story. It's the, advanced teams that come with all this energy. You wait for the talent, you wait for the person to show up. You look them in the eyes, you'll know right away whether what this is gonna be. Another example, the opposite to your point is I had a shoot with two very, very famous comedians. I'm only saying very, very, I can't say the names'cause I don't wanna disparage them. It was for a Netflix thing. It was a massive deal. I had three minutes to do seven setups. Everything was marked and taped. We were shooting in a diner in New York City. Covid was just starting. I had blown in from Europe just for the shoot. I was doing something completely different. I flew home quickly to do the shoot before I went back to Europe. It was a big deal. Three minutes. I had a publicist who right, right out off of my lens was holding a timer. That's when you say you are prepared because I've marked everything out. Everything's lit. These are professionals. They're gonna hit their marks. I wasn't allowed to communicate with them. They were going to, they knew what they needed to do and I was there to capture what I needed to capture. That's when you don't mess around. That's when you say, yeah, okay, you're paying me a lot of money to have it prec, scouted, pre-lit, everything marked. They're gonna hit their marks. We move on quick. And that's experience.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Brian Doben:

experience. But also the, the buildup to it was you have three minutes. Like there was no conversation. The other example I gave was more of a, we have 15 minutes, hopefully she'll give us a little bit more. That's how that went.

Raymond Hatfield:

I see.

Brian Doben:

knew, I smelled the situations very different.

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah,

Brian Doben:

you know, you are taking a gamble, but you also, it's the responsibility of the photographer if you're gonna. Regardless of how you do it, you should have a plan of what you're gonna do throughout that day. And everything should be somewhat in your mind framed so that when it happens, even if it, you end up not doing it, that idea can come to life somewhere else. So you have to kind of storyboard it in your mind. You can't just wing it. Winging it is dangerous. That's when you done early and you have a little bit of time you could play, there's no time for that. As a professional, you have to know what you're gonna do.

Raymond Hatfield:

That was a great example. I'm glad that you were able to just pull that off the top of your head because that is, I mean, those are polar opposites of each other, so I, I appreciate you sharing that.

Brian Doben:

And they were not the kind, it, it was a very tense environment'cause of the covid, but also they're not the nicest, warmest people. They weren't rude, but they weren't. weren't nice, they weren't cooperative, they just did what they were told to do and they then they just walked out.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Brian Doben:

yous, nothing.

Raymond Hatfield:

Uhhuh.

Brian Doben:

and going back to what you said initially, we're in the service industry, so it's not a personal attack on me,

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Doben:

or even when the comment of that client, I don't like the image. Please tell me that I tell clients all the time, my time machine is in the shop, so this is the time. If you have an issue with it, let me know.'cause it's my job is to give you what you want,

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Brian Doben:

not what I want, know, necessarily, but what you want.

Raymond Hatfield:

Well, let's get back to what you want in working on this at Work project. So, I wanna know more about kind of the logistics of it. specifically I guess one, like how much time do you have to capture these people? Are you going in and it's very relaxed and you're trying to bring this calm environment to it? Or do you go in knowing exactly what you want to capture and you just try to hit those setups and, and move on?

Brian Doben:

The truth is, is that when we go in, we tell everyone, if you can give an hour to two.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hmm.

Brian Doben:

and some people say, oh, I can't because I don't have that much time. Okay, time do you have? And they tell us. And we, what I try to do is the same formula I've talked about, disarm the person, have a conversation. All of a sudden time becomes irrelevant on some level. I don't have a plan. There's been a few times where I've had an idea of what I think I'd wanna do. There's even been one time where I had a dream, I was in Cuba and I had a dream of a giraffe, and the next day I photographed the woman on stilts walking downstairs. That just was part of a place I was going to photograph. But in general, I would say, go in with an open mind and open heart to meet someone. And the camera, like I said, is just an extension of me. It's the images are a scrapbook for me. It's really the journey that has always mattered. The images are crucial, but I don't think about it, as like at the top, I think meeting this person, listening to their story, some sort of a, a communicative like flow. I. And then we start photographing. Maybe I'm photographing while we're talking, or maybe I'll say, okay, great. Let's take a break and let's go over here and try this. It's a little bit of the whole thing, but I don't go in with a preconceived idea.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right.

Brian Doben:

this many shoots.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. That's kind of that idea that I was sharing with you earlier. The difference between an agenda and an intention. If you show up with an agenda, it's, you're gonna be humbled real quick. Right. Oftentimes you don't know what the job exactly entails, the mood that the person is in, what the space looks like. But if you go in with the intention, there's a lot of space that I would imagine that you can play within.

Brian Doben:

There's a lot of beauty that comes in that. Correct. And for me, from a technical perspective, I don't really use too many lights. I tend to try and play off of the daylight. Maybe there's a touch of light, but the light is not the story unless the story is the light, if that makes sense. Like

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Doben:

a sheep herder in, Spain, and the sun was just rising. I mean, it's like out of a movie, the sun is rising, there's fog, it's he's walking through it, holding a lantern. I couldn't have afforded to make that happen. That's like a, that's a big time production for one image. So like I said, things are given to me. Because that wasn't supposed to happen and it was raining the night before I was like, shit, I don't know if this guy's gonna cancel on me. I drove all that way to meet him. He might, he's a, you know, he's not, I'm the least of his day. He has to get those sheep, And I got ex, I mean, I have stories like that where I'm just like, I don't know why you just gave that to me, but you did. Whether it's the person just allowing for that photograph to happen or, mean, I could give you stories if you want to hear of just these moments where I'm just like, wow, I didn't, I did not expect that.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Well that's, that's a human element that I think I love so much about looking at your images, is that it doesn't just feel like I'm physically watching somebody do their job. it feels like I'm watching somebody who's doing a job. And if there's, there's a, there's a slight difference. And I kind of wanted to ask a little bit about the context that you put into your images, because when I look at your photos, they're not just, they're not just head shots, right? It's not just shoulders up, it's a head. In your photo in a single frame, I can tell who the person is. I can tell what it is that they do. I can tell where we're at and the passion that they bring to this work. And a lot of that comes, comes in through the context that you weave. Maybe taking an extra step back, you know, and giving the, the frame some space. So can you talk to me a little bit about how do you ensure that you're able to capture all of that within a single frame?

Brian Doben:

Well, from a technical perspective, I tend to use more of a wide angle. I tend to shoot between 24 to 28 millimeter. For the reason I, I wanna be close to you. feel actually, like, literally I wanna feel or smell you. I wanna feel meaning like I wanna feel the, the heat. There's something, it's important for me to be near you. If I'm far away. I feel very, like, I don't know, separated is too simple of a way of saying it. I just don't think from like an animal perspective, we do well when more, misunderstandings happen when you're far apart

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Brian Doben:

So I try to be as close as I can be. And now to your point, by keeping within the frame a story that tells. In saying that, there have been times where I've also gone, in a sense the opposite. I photographed a mime artist in Las Vegas who was getting, I met him at his house. He's talking to me, which was weird'cause he's in his mime, you know, he's basically ready. He almost finished his face makeup and we were gonna go and we were gonna go on the strip. what he wanted to do. I wanted to meet him at his house because if I meet him on the strip, he's not gonna talk to me. And he is also gonna be the my artist, so I won't get the human side. So we met at his house and we're sitting at his kitchen table and he's super uncomfortable'cause he's like, it's a white wall behind him. And we're just talking. And I realized what's more interesting is the fact that his profession is about hiding himself in this character. I. So I said, you know what, let's stop talking to each other. I said, I just wanna observe you. I just wanna watch you. And I photographed him against a white wall, essentially. This is a white wall and a table. And then he brought out this great little figurine that he had won at some, kind of like it's not a contest, but it's like a, it was an award show for like mimes, for international mime artists. And he brought it out and he touched in. The way he touched it was so powerful. It was just such a beautiful moment. And so most of the time you need more within the frame to tell a story. And sometimes the story is just the person, and that's being open. That's just being open to the moment and not, like you said, not having a preconceived idea'cause you're just gonna lock yourself into a corner.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my goodness. I think that story right there. I don't know how any better way to wrap up this episode as we're running outta time, most photographers feel so nervous about getting in front of somebody and, displaying that they know what they're talking about when it comes to their camera and how to pose them and, and how to do all of these things. And over and over again you're saying this is about the human element. We're photographing humans. Be curious about them. They will deliver. And this is, something that I hope people go back and listen to multiple times because that is such a, such a powerful message. But Brian, before I let you go, I gotta ask, where can listeners find more about you online? Where can they see your book? Where can they see more of your work?

Brian Doben:

The best places to see more of my work would be, at my website, which is brian dobin.com. and then for my at work project where you see the whole library, it's at work project.com. Spelled out@workproject.com. and there you'd see all the work, but that's really where you'd see it. I'm excited for the book to come out. It will be out on my wife's birthday on June 3rd. Look, as much as I am excited about it, I'm nervous too, right? Because I'm, I'm putting this out into the world. I've been hesitant for years. I photographed a gentleman in London his name is Brian, and he said, Brian, it's time for you to put your book out into the world. And I took his words to gospel and I went out and, fortunately, found a wonderful publisher, trope Publishing, where you can purchase the book or an Amazon. and, they believed in the book. And I really am excited for people to see it because it's not really just about the photographs. The most important thing for me, the message I wanna give, is to the same message that was given to me by my mother, which is that you can fly, you can do anything you want. You have to just believe in yourself. And I was given that gift. Of people are not for many reasons, usually fear. Parents want their child to be safe. They want them to be successful, but that's fear based. The most important thing you can do is to believe in yourself try things and experiment and fail. Failing is not what we think as failing. Failing is another step in the journey you find what you love. And as a photographer, if you're nervous, slow down. You could even say to the subject, I'm nervous. Be human. You're not super human. They're nervous too. Nervous mean you care. Not a bad thing. Anxiety, we all have it. It's not just you. We all have these kind of, limits on ourselves. We don't share enough with each other that we have it. So we think that we're unique and we think that we suck or we think that our, what we wanna do isn't good. It is good. It's good for you. It's good for someone. That's what matters.

Raymond Hatfield:

Alright, quick thank you again to Brian Dobin for coming on the podcast and sharing everything that he did. And hey, don't forget to check out this show notes for the links to Brian's book and to watch that video of him working with his subjects. Now it is time for this week's photography action plan, as in if you implement just one thing this week, make it be this thing to move the needle forward in your photography, and that is connect with somebody before taking their photo. Brian talked a lot about the human element in photography and how it wasn't until he rediscovered that, that he rediscovered his passion for photography. After all, if we're not photographing people, we're photographing four people. And as he said, people want to be understood. People want to be seen. So whether you have a portrait session this week or you just want to go grab your spouse or your child or your coworker, you know, whatever it is, don't worry about making a perfect photo. A golden hour with that 85 millimeter lens. Like, don't worry about that. Just talk to them. Learn something new about them. Ask them what types of fruits that they like. You know, I don't know. But the more that you learn about who a person is. The easier it is for you to see them and the more they will feel seen and that while it's not quantifiable, you'll see it in the photo. That is when an image is more than just the sum of its settings. So give that a shot. That is it for today. Until next time, remember, the more you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.