The Beginner Photography Podcast

How Thoughtful Details Win Photography Clients for Life with Allie Siarto

• Raymond Hatfield

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#567 Allie Siarto is a wedding and lifestyle photographer based in East Lansing, Michigan, and host of the Photo Field Notes podcast. The episode is a deep dive into the importance of creating a world-class experience for portrait clients, a factor Allie emphasizes as crucial for building client loyalty and generating referrals in the photography business. Through engaging stories and clear advice, Allie illustrates how exceptional service, thoughtful preparation, and emotional connections often outweigh technical perfection in client satisfaction.

KEY TOPICS COVERED

  1. The Power of Client Experience Over Technical Perfection - Allie explains that while technical skill is important, the client’s emotional experience during the shoot has a greater impact on their satisfaction. Providing guidance, being prepared, and making clients comfortable often leads to higher perceived value and greater word-of-mouth referrals.
  2. Practical Steps for Improving Client Experience - Major points include communicating proactively (e.g., style guides, prep emails), planning for logistics (like family lists and timeline management), dressing professionally, and using prompts to create genuine moments. Real-world examples such as helping clients find venues or ensuring parents feel included underscore how small efforts make a big difference.
  3. Continuous Learning and Reflection - Allie shares her own learning curve, including mistakes (like not asking parents if they wanted more photos), and details how she implements those lessons to continually improve. The importance of treating early years in business as an extension of education is highlighted, encouraging listeners to seek feedback and view setbacks as opportunities.

IMPORTANT DEFINITIONS & CONCEPTS

  • Client Experience: The cumulative impressions and feelings that clients have throughout their interactions with a photographer, from initial inquiry to final image delivery. Ensuring a positive client experience can be a greater predictor of success and referrals than technical image quality alone.
  • Unposed Posing: A posing style that uses prompts and interactive questions to evoke natural expressions and genuine emotion, rather than traditional, static posing. This approach helps even uncomfortable clients relax, leading to more authentic and memorable images.

DISCUSSION & REFLECTION QUESTIONS

  1. How do you currently manage the experience of your clients before, during, and after a shoot? What areas can you improve based on Allie’s advice?
  2. Think about a time you had a remarkable or disappointing service experience (outside of photography). What specific factors made the difference, and how can you apply those lessons to your photography business?

RESOURCES:
Visit Allie Siarto's Website - http://alliesiarto.com/
Follow Allie Siarto on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/alliesiarto/

Grab your free 52 Lightroom Presets at
http://freephotographypresets.com/

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Allie Siarto:

Even if you are the most amazing photographer in the world and you take the most beautiful photo in the world and it could win awards but you showed up late to that photo shoot and you made the client feel awkward and in your posing they were like this doesn't feel natural. Someone else might think that's beautiful but that client's not gonna like that photo nearly as much as if you were super responsive, prepared them ahead of time, made them laugh, had a great time, and related to them.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast. I'm your host Raymond Hatfield, and each week I interview one of the world's most interesting photographers to learn what it really takes to capture beautiful images so that you can start to do the same. In today's rewind episode, we're chatting with portrait photographer Ali Cido about how creating a world-class experience for your portrait clients we will keep them coming back year after year. But first, the Beginner Photography Podcast is brought to you by Cloud Spot. Sell your photos through prints, products, and of course digitals. You can set up a storefront in minutes and start earning more with every gallery you send. So grab your free forever account over@deliverphotos.com and only upgrade when you are ready. So today's interview with Ali CDO is one that really helped me personally, to have a better understanding of the process that I was putting my clients through. We have this idea that our photos should speak for themselves, and I mean, that would be nice, but the truth is, is that they usually dumped. And that's not like a, a knock on you or anything, it's just that most non photographers are not as, visually literate as we are, and therefore they need more than just the images. They need to feel like they're being taken care of. They need to feel supported. They need to be given an experience. And you've heard me say that photography is a service and not a product, and it's true. Well today, Ali is gonna walk you through how to deliver an amazing service through experience and what it did for those who she photographed. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview. Today's guest is Allie Ciarto, a wedding and lifestyle photographer currently in East Lansing, Michigan. She is also the host of the Photo Field Notes podcast, where she focuses on business growth by interviewing other successful photographers. Allie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Allie Siarto:

Thank you, Raymond, for having me today.

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure. I mentioned earlier in the intro that you're currently in Michigan, but you have this beautiful video on your website that adds so much personality to you and your family. But can you let the listeners who haven't watched the video, let them know, where you came before and how you got into photography?

Allie Siarto:

Yes. Oh, gosh. Yeah. So in terms of like location wise, I've been kind of all over the place. So actually I'm from Michigan, born and raised in Michigan and went to Michigan State University, graduated from Michigan State and with a degree in advertising and was at the time it was called telecommunications. So, like digital media, which just barely touched on photography, like three point lighting, basic stuff, but it was not what I had in mind. I actually wanted to go work for a big advertising agency. And so when I graduated, my big plan was to move to New York city and work for a big ad agency. And my. Like last few months of my senior year, I started dating my now husband and he was actually in the master's program at Michigan state and would be for another year. So I was like, ah, New York sounds a little bit far away, but Chicago, you know, it's four hours from where I am. So I ended up working for a company in Chicago, working in like the digital PR department there. And while I was there, there's like so many winding stories. So again, photography was like. Not a thing that I wanted to do. So I was working in this really entry level job living in Chicago. I had like no money whatsoever, had no life beyond my job. And one day I was just like, I need a creative outlet. Like I need a community outside of work. And so I found this, class at the Chicago photography center, which was a nonprofit and it's doesn't exist anymore, which just really breaks my heart because it was the greatest organization. And so basically they're like by this exact camera, everybody buy like a Nikon D 90. That was where they started. Cause it was an affordable entry level camera that like let us all learn the basics. Everybody buy a 50 millimeter 1. 8 lens. Cause it's a good like starting lens. So that's what I started with. And I just. And so we would just like went to these in person classes twice a week, we would go and we would learn the basics and we would, do assignments and we would have lab time and we could print out our photos and be like, wow, and it all started in black and white. So we didn't even start with color we just learned the basics and then I just, I think when I really love something I go all in on it. So I remember starting out, I would print out my photos for my assignments and it would be these specific assignments like, take a picture showing motion or take a picture within your block that tells a story, whatever it was. And so I'd walk around Chicago, I'd take these pictures, I would print them out, and then they would end up in my cubicle, my beautiful cubicle, decorating things. And people would walk by and they'd be like, oh cool, did you take those? And I'd be like, oh yes I did. Before I knew it a couple people they were about 500 people at this company and a couple of them I can't even remember how exactly I'd made that leap where they were like, well, hey, can I hire you for photos? And I was like sure you can pay me like 80 bucks or a hundred dollars And I remember pulling that number

Raymond Hatfield:

out of the air. I'm sure. Yeah. No,

Allie Siarto:

I I had a full time job I mean again, not that I was making like Son of money doing it, but I was fine. And, yeah, I remember going to like photograph these people who I worked with and being just terrified because one was like my boss,

Raymond Hatfield:

I was like, Oh, no, I can't screw this up.

Allie Siarto:

And he knew, you know, so I just kind of slowly got into it from there. And then I actually, I continued down the path of my career for many years. I started my own company in kind of like the PR digital space. Market research space that I did for many years and was actually pretty well known in that space. Like that was considered my success. And so I felt like leaving that behind was going to be a failure. Like if that was success, then leaving it would be failure. So basically running in tandem, I was running this other company and growing this company and really focused on that. And then photography was always my, I always call it my alter ego on the weekend where I would go. So I called up a photographer and I said, I like looked on the not. And I think I looked at the first person who came up in the featured listing and I called him and I was like, Hey, can I be your assistant? And he actually said like, yeah, come on in and we'll talk. So I went in and, I did basically, I did a trial, like a free, like an audition. So I went to a wedding. I was, I was just carrying bags for him and taking some photos. And then he hired me on, he paid me like a hundred dollars per wedding to help out and in a lot of like assisting with carrying bags. That was my main job. I was actually hired as an employee so I could use his lighting. So he would give me lighting gear and taught me lighting. And he would sit down with me after every wedding and help me like go through my photos and teach me what I needed to know. And that was huge. That was so helpful. I didn't even realize how Great. That was at the time that no one gets that. I was like, yeah, you know, I'm not getting paid a ton, but the experience was everything. So I remember someone when I was in college saying treat your first few years out of college as just a continuation of your education, just treat it like you are, you're still learning. Don't get stuck in the muck where you're like, Oh, I'm not making enough money or, or you're feeling like you're not moving fast enough. Just if you have the mentality that that is a time to learn, then It can be a much more positive experience. So I think I took it that way and I really got a lot out of it.

Raymond Hatfield:

I mean, that's a great mindset to have for sure. Like you said, there's a lot of people coming out of college, assuming like now I know all this stuff, I have a lot of debt. I have to be making a lot of money, but going the route you did sounds way more fulfilling, especially later on down the road.

Allie Siarto:

And we don't know everything coming up, whether you go to college or not. Like, come on, we don't know. So it's good to take the time and like, appreciate that you can learn from others. so anyway, so let's see, I'll try not to make the story too long. So I ended up after I got married, I moved back to Michigan. So I had worked for that photographer, learned a ton, moved back to Michigan and still was running my other company and I could run it from anywhere. So we were like, let's go back to Michigan. That's where our family is. my sister had my nephew by then. I felt like we were just too far away. So we got back to Michigan. We kept the company going. I was starting to grow the photography company in Michigan. And then we decided kind of like on a whim to move to DC for eight or nine months. Just kind of like, you know what, actually first, no, we bought a house. We bought a house and then we decided to move. So we had to like leave our house, leave our cat. We couldn't take our cat with us. Yeah. Yeah. So really do

Raymond Hatfield:

jump into something when you got, when you fall passionate about it, don't you? It

Allie Siarto:

was truly like this, like split second decision. We were in DC and a friend we had met. Was like, Hey, let me show you this place. My friend who owns it is only home once a month for one night and he wants someone to rent it for really cheap. And we were like, we can't pass this deal up. So we signed like a nine monthly. So we're just like, let's just treat it like study abroad and we're going to go and enjoy it. So actually at that time, I had decided that I was going to go all in on my other company and I actually took a year off of photography and I thought it was going to be done because I had shot, I think 17 weddings the year before while running the company as an assistant. No, it's myself. Your own wedding? Oh my gosh. Yeah, once I was back. This was a couple, it took a couple years back in Michigan. I shot 17 weddings. I was running the other company and it just, something had to give. So I was like, I'm just going to give up photography. I can't do everything. I love it. But like, that's, I was like, the money's not going to be there. The other place is where I'm getting the money. So whatever. So yeah, I think I was still kind of learning the business side at that point. So I thought I was gonna be done forever. I was in DC. I was saying no to absolutely everything because I was in DC and then one day somebody called me and it was like the mother of the bride and just kind of out of the blue, she's like, she was so excited. She was like, is this Allie Ciardo? And I was like, yeah, and she was like, are you available for my daughter's wedding on this date? She loves you! And I was like, oh. Well, then maybe yes, and she was like, we'll take you. And so she like got me kind of back in the like excitement of everything. And so I took just two weddings that fall. And then from there, I was like, Oh, I do really love this. And so with all of that, my daughter was born that later that fall. And just kind of evaluating everything. I realized that I just, If I was going to spend time doing something, I wanted it to be something that I loved. And so photography won in the end. And now I am a full time photographer and I've built my team from there. And now I live back in the house, back in the house that we bought. We've been here for a while and yeah, I've continued to just grow the business in Michigan.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. Okay. So that was quite a road to where you are now. That was

Allie Siarto:

a short story too.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay. Hold on. Let me, let me break this apart real quick. Okay. We'll start back when you first called the other photographer to assist him, right? So at this point, how much had you learned from the school that you were going to learning photography? Were you proficient in a camera or was this still like going to be additional education in terms of simple settings?

Allie Siarto:

I was about as proficient as an assistant can be, but not enough to like shoot my own. So I had taken basically the beginner class, the like more advanced class, and then I had taken a flash class, so I knew how flash worked. I understood the mechanics of it, but I hadn't done off camera lighting. So he really taught me everything with lighting in that way. I had never photographed a wedding, so I, Oh no, that's not true. I had like kind of photographed my friend's wedding that I was in. That was one of those, like, she wouldn't have otherwise had a photographer. So. So like, but oh, you know, exactly what you would expect them to be.

Raymond Hatfield:

Real quick, do you still have those photos somewhere?

Allie Siarto:

I think I found a couple on Flicker recently.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, sweet

Allie Siarto:

And I was doing like the, like really texturized editing. Mm-Hmm. and like lots of, lots of, of editing Contrast

Raymond Hatfield:

and saturation. Yeah. Vignetting, I'm sure there's a bit. Yeah.

Allie Siarto:

As TP Vignetting, all that fun stuff. So, I was like. It basically where you would expect an assistant and not yet second shooter, but like assistant who also can have the camera. So I was great for carrying bags, right? And then if I got a great shot, great. If I didn't, it didn't really matter. Basically, at that point.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, no, that makes sense. So when you went into it, did you think that you would be learning more than just, the technicals of photography. Were you looking forward to opening up your own photography studio one day? Or I'm just trying to get in that mindset of, of why you contacted this photographer.

Allie Siarto:

Yeah, I think I was. I still, like I said at this point in my career, I had no intention of doing it the full time, to become the only thing I did. I always thought that my other company was always going to be the dominating company, but still something just a

Raymond Hatfield:

creative outlet for you.

Allie Siarto:

Ah, it was a little bit more than that.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay.

Allie Siarto:

No, it was something more than that. I think it was that drive where I was like, I want to be really good at this. I want to be able to have that fulfilling feeling of taking Amazing photos for someone for their wedding and I wanted it was just so different I was working in corporate america with these global companies and it was just so different to work one on one with clients And I loved it and I just got addicted basically I was like I must do more and I didn't want to do more and like do it kind of like halfway I guess I just I really wanted to be As good as I could be at it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure. Sure. No, I totally understand that as another wedding photographer, that's what I love most is the personal connection that you have with somebody, the amount of time that you spend with them to get to know them so that you can. Personalize, essentially, the photos that you can deliver to them to see their reaction as opposed to, I worked for a public company before I started working in photography. And it's like, whenever I did something that I was proud of, it just kind of went into the white noise because I never saw the end result of it. So that's how I understand.

Allie Siarto:

Yeah, that's exactly how I felt at my other company. Like, It was just kind of like, there it was, nobody was really appreciative, but to actually have people like, cry or get so excited and to really truly thank me was really fulfilling and just like, creatively fulfilling for me.

Raymond Hatfield:

For sure, for sure. Okay, so, you met this new photographer, you became, their assistant, you started working, and you started shooting a little bit, what are some things that you learned that had nothing to do with the camera essentially in working just one on one with a client.

Allie Siarto:

Yeah. Well, everything about planning basically realizing he was really organized and he would have a sheet that he would give me before every wedding that had The family list already put together and he'd have like these circles and family trees of who's who and I think I can't remember if it was like symbols or he would tell me if there was an awkward relationship to be aware of And the whole day would be planned and you know Just yeah the way he interacted and he would tell me stories about how like Oh, there was this one bridal party where he worked with one bride and then the bridal party loved him. And then they all hired him along the way. And that led to many other weddings and how important that was. And he had a dress code. I had to wear a very specific thing. When I showed up, I had to look very professional. The appearance really mattered. These were really high end weddings in Chicago that we were going to, just the way that you behaved in front of clients, everything about it. That, you know, I had worked, like I said, I worked in corporate America, so I knew how to conduct myself in front of people. I wasn't going to be a professional, but it's still really different. And kind of just balancing the party aspect with the professionalism and, The lighting and just everything happening at once, but the logistics. I think that if I had gone and photographed a wedding on my own, without having ever worked for somebody else, I wouldn't have had nearly the preparation to just know how the day was going to go. Like, okay, like typically, this is after this, and then this will happen. These are the things to look out for. This is where things can go wrong. Just everything that prepared me to be prepared. Okay,

Raymond Hatfield:

so now, obviously, you do still want to be professional. First of all, it's still going to my mind how crazy it is that this guy shooting very high end weddings in Chicago was like, on a whim, Oh yeah, you've never shot a wedding? Come on! Like, let's come in.

Allie Siarto:

Well, like I said, it was because he had a very strategic plan. Approach to it and actually I feel bad because I ended up leaving Chicago after that and Andre I'm, really sorry if you ever listen to this I'm, sorry that I left but he had and i'm now in this mindset So he wanted me to start out as an assistant and he wanted to train me from the ground up So what he did was he would train people From the early early stages if you saw something in them where he knew that he could He wouldn't have a lot of risk because I was the third shooter. I wasn't even the second shooter. I was like the third shooter. So there wasn't a lot of risk. He wanted to train me from the ground up to then become his second shooter, to then become like, let's say like an associate photographer, it was within a bigger company and now I'm taking on that mindset. So just yesterday I talked to somebody who is a student. Student photography student. To be quite honest, I have never seen her work before. I've never seen a single photo she's taken. But I'm gonna hire her to be an assistant to help with bags and you know, pay her to come along and help. And then if she wants to take some photos, she can take some photos. I'll give her some feedback. And ideally,'cause I know her as a person and that was what mattered more was personality like I wanted someone with the right personality, of

Raymond Hatfield:

course.

Allie Siarto:

And then I assume she's got some skills and I can train the rest into her if she's interested. So then I can get her to the point where she's interested in the other pieces if she wants to become a second photographer and then potentially an associate photographer. So I like the mindset of being able to bring somebody in from the beginning and I think that's that is what he does. And then, sadly I left and I kind of wasted his time. So I do feel bad about that, but I didn't plan to move. I thought I'd be in Chicago for the whole time and work my way through the company. It just didn't work out that way.

Raymond Hatfield:

Well, I mean, that's life you've been bouncing around a lot, obviously. So trying to find the spot where you feel most comfortable and here you are now. So it's very important. I want to hear a little bit about the first time you booked your own. First wedding. How did that come about? Did you have a website at this point? Was it I mean like you said you had the friend whose wedding you were in and if you didn't shoot It then they just weren't gonna have any photos. I want to hear a little bit about The first pain paying client that you had.

Allie Siarto:

I think I maybe had just launched a website It was really basic thinking that all down the road. I would start to try to market myself You And I was at a barbecue with a friend. And so I, so she was Mormon and had a bunch of Mormon friends who were getting like in that age of getting married. And she had a friend who I never met before, who was at the barbecue. And so we're at this like downtown rooftop barbecue and. She was just like, oh, I'm getting married and we're just chatting. Oh, I'm getting married in three weeks. I don't have a photographer yet It's kind of like we're kind of putting it together quickly and I was like, well, I'm a photographer Like I just kind of like threw it out there like whatever let's do it and one of the things with that As I was taking these photos, I did not have the rights to any of my photos. I could not use them in my portfolio. So I don't even remember what I showed her. Maybe like the other wedding or my photography assignments. I cannot remember. I don't know. No, I had done some portraits at that point. So I would have shown her the portraits and I was very honest with her. This is my first wedding by myself besides like the friend one. And I have worked with, but I've worked on these big weddings where I was doing a lot of shooting. I do feel confident. I know my lighting. And I charged her 500 like we all do right on our first wedding and it was like Yeah, two or three weeks later, and here's the best part. So it was a Mormon wedding, so I wasn't even allowed to go into the Mormon temple. Yeah. So, but she had converted, so they had like another ceremony later because their friends and family couldn't either, so it was fine. So I didn't, I showed up at like 8 a. m. They came out, they were married. We took pictures in like this full sun. I dragged my husband along to be my assistant. And I remember being like, I know you don't want to take photos in full sun, like, I know you have to diffuse it. So Jeff, you're going to hold my, reflector, like, just as we're going to take the thing off and hold it up above. And we're going to try to get them in the shadow, and then I'm going to try to just get them there, and it's going to be great. And it was like And? Not great, but it was fine. I mean, it was better than full sun. I knew the basics of what I was doing. I thought I, I actually think I did a pretty good job overall. Like I knew that they didn't want to be in full sun, created shade for them. It just wasn't very big shade. and then I did know, like I knew how to use my lighting. I had my flash and my umbrella. It was a big dark room like you never could have done it without lighting. So I was like, oh this You know, I was pretty proud of my lighting, but I did not bring enough batteries So i'm sitting here charging batteries on my like quick charger in the middle of dinner I didn't know to ask to be fed So they have this amazing spread of food that we totally could have had some and jeff's like ali i'm starving And I was like, I don't think we can eat it because I didn't ask All I had to do was ask and I'm sure she like ahead of time obviously and I'm sure it would have been like now I put it in my contract. Everybody feeds me But I didn't know and I was starving and Jeff was like, I'm never doing this again if you don't feed me But from that, you know, so I got just enough photos from that event It was actually it turned out to be a really amazing venue like a great venue in Chicago and they had gotten a deal on it I think because they had their wedding. It was like an afternoon wedding and So I had work from this great venue. I had, I remember like this one particular ring photo that I took that was really cool. And like that ring photo alone, I was like, this makes me a professional. And then I like used that to book other clients. So after that, once I had my own portfolio work, I then actually pretty quickly after that, I put an ad up on the knot and I think. Later that fall, I knew I was going to be moving to Michigan, so I paid for an ad in Chicago and in Michigan and booked my first couple weddings in both places. Oh, wow. So when I moved to Michigan, I actually kind of came back and forth, or maybe I knew I would eventually, whatever it was, I ended up in getting a couple weddings in both places, and went back to Chicago a couple of times, did a couple weddings there and, just kind of like slow grow from there.

Raymond Hatfield:

So obviously, like, you started advertising on The Knot in both Michigan and Chicago, which blows my mind. That's insane to be in both places. But, now that you have shot a few weddings, what sorts of things are you doing, for these clients, in order to help I guess gain referrals because we all know how important referrals are.

Allie Siarto:

Yeah. okay. So I think it took me a while to really get there where I was creating the full experience, but I want to tell you a story that's going to seem unrelated and then you'll see how it's related. I'm

Raymond Hatfield:

excited.

Allie Siarto:

Okay. So, this is actually a story about my mom, so it has nothing to do with photography, but it's going to illustrate to you like why you'll get it when I tell it. So, So hanging with me here. So my mom went out to, the West Coast with her sister and her mom to visit family and they went wine tasting. So while they were wine tasting, they went to this vineyard and they were given this glass of wine and they said, Oh, go out on the hill and enjoy the beautiful setting and just enjoy the wine. So they're sitting on this amazing hill. Looking over this gorgeous setting under this tree in the perfect sunny weather. And they're with amazing company. They're having the best time. And my mom is drinking this wine. And she says, this is the best wine I've ever tasted. This is so good. So she goes back in and she says. I've got to buy some wine. I have to bring this home so everybody can experience how amazing this wine is. And so she buys it and she goes through the hassle of packaging it up and taking it home and, getting it there. So a couple months later, my mom and my dad host a wine tasting party and it's not just a wine tasting party. It's a blind wine tasting party. So they put all the wines in like paper bags so that nobody can tell what brand it is so that you're not influenced by knowing the brand or, or like the pretty label or anything. It's just like totally based on taste. So they pour the wine. Everybody ranks the wine. They decide what tastes the best, purely on taste. They rank them one through whatever. How about 10? I don't, I don't know how much wine they're drinking. I guess that's

Raymond Hatfield:

a

Allie Siarto:

lot. So at the end of the day, every single person, including my mom, ranked that wine dead last, he said it was awful. And she was like, I don't, it was crazy because when I was sitting on this beautiful hill, sitting with amazing company in a beautiful setting, and under the sunlight with a beautiful view. It tasted amazing. And when I was just tasting that wine back at home with nothing, no other contacts, it was awful. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Allie Siarto:

How does that apply to our clients? So another story I'll tell you just kind of. also relating it back to photography. So I had a session in December, it was an extended family session and we planned it ahead of time knowing it was going to be cold and still planning to do it outside. And I figured, okay, we'll get that like really pretty light. Everybody will be bundled up, but like cute and styled and we'll have mittens and hats and it'll be really cute. And then the contact person emailed me and was like, listen, we just don't want to do it outside. It's going to be like, we're going to have younger kids. So we just. We don't want to

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah,

Allie Siarto:

and she was like, can you give me recommendations on where to do it inside? And I don't have a studio. I used to have a small studio, but now I actually just starting this week. i'm meeting clients out of a an event stylist office. So it's not a studio It's like an office, but I don't have a shooting space So I immediately was like, oh, it's not really what I do. Like I can do it because I I do that for weddings It's not really what I do. So I went on our local group and I was like, does anybody want You I know I already have the contract, but I'd rather give her someone who has the studio and is totally set up for it. Nobody wanted it. It was like 18 people inside. Nobody wanted it. So I went back to her and I was like, okay. I'm going to call some places. So I called actually like wedding venues that I had worked with. It was a Monday afternoon. So I said, can we rent it for an hour? I gave her three different options and she, and I said, this one's going to be kind of darker. You know, that is what it is. This one's brighter. I, you know, you could do this one, this one, this one. And she actually picked kind of the darker

Raymond Hatfield:

one.

Allie Siarto:

So on the day of the photos, I had to, it was a really dark day and there was like very little natural light. It was kind of like brick and dark. Okay. Not really the normal style that you would see on my website. I had to light everything. So it was like off camera lighting. So it was like technically fine, but it wasn't, it wasn't like the kind of photo that you would look at and be like blown away because it has this beautiful light coming in and amazing. And even my husband looked at them and he was like, yeah, it's not like your typical style. It's not something you would normally put in your portfolio because it's just not your normal style. And so then I was like, Oh, are they going to hate on what are they going to do? And I sent them to them. So they were all in from all over the country. And I sent them, I do, I don't, I used to do in person sales. Now I have this kind of like not in person sales model where they have an ordering session, but it's virtual. And so I sent them, they were all together on Christmas Eve, so I got them done within like five days, sent them over, and I heard nothing, and I was like, oh my god, they hated them.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, that's the worst.

Allie Siarto:

But then, just, I think literally just yesterday, I heard back from the point person, and she said, She's like, I'm so sorry. The holidays were so crazy. We were all together. And now we're all like spread out across the country again. And I just wanted you to know that we absolutely love the photos and my mom cried and we want to make sure we still have time to order prints because we really love them. Oh wow. so, so what this goes back to is that if a stranger saw those photos, they would not be blown away. They were just like fine. Like They were a family in a fairly dark space with light off camera lighting coming in. It wasn't anything I would enter to win an award. But to that family, they saw more than just the photo. It was the wine on the hill experience for them. So they remembered that a, I helped them find a space and B, I, prepared them. I gave them a style guide to help them with what to wear. They all came dressed really cute. I gave them ideas for what to do with the photos on the day of the photo shoot. They're all in from all over the country. So they're remembering this great experience of being together. And instead of just having them smile the whole time and feel awkward, I interacted with them. I tried to remember everybody's name. I used prompts, interactive prompts, where they were all laughing so hard. And like, even at the end, they were hugging me and saying, this was so much fun. Like

Raymond Hatfield:

these

Allie Siarto:

prompts were such a blast. And so they left, even before they saw the photos, they knew they were going to love them because the photos, no matter what they were, were going to be a memory of a really great time. And so when they saw them and, oh, and then I also, they saw them as a slideshow. So it's to music and it's more emotional instead of just sending them as. A like a

Raymond Hatfield:

gallery? Yeah. A

Allie Siarto:

link. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm-Hmm.

Allie Siarto:

So the whole experience was there from beginning to end, from like the way they interacted with me from the first day to the very end. So again, it's that like wine on the hill experience, it's more than just a photo. It's more, to them, it has more meaning, it tastes better because of the full experience. And so in the end, they loved the photos Because of that full experience. And so you have to remember that yes to it. Yes. You have to know your technical ability. You have to be able to take a good photo, but once you get to the point where you know, your technical basics, you can take a good technically sound photo. You can edit, you have, whatever style you need to, instead of then focusing on like, What other preset can I do? Or what other crazy thing I can do? Like, that's fine, but you need to first nail down the whole experience. You need to make sure that you can pose people in a way that feels really fun and natural, so that they're leaving like, that was actually really fun instead of like, oh, I feel awkward. Because even if you are the most amazing photographer in the world and you take the most beautiful photo in the world and it could win awards But you showed up late to that photo shoot and you made the client feel awkward and in your posing They were like this doesn't feel natural someone else might think that's beautiful But that client's not gonna like that photo nearly as much as if you were super responsive prepared them ahead of time made them laugh had a great time and related to them all these things that you have to do so you have to remember that It is human nature. Like I teach a consumer behavior class now at Michigan State and it is truly like that is actually how the human mind works. We think that we're grading something, judging something just based on like the pure values of that product, but we're actually much more influenced by all those other external factors than we are by the actual product. So it is human nature. People are going to like a photo way more based on the full experience than based on the photo itself.

Raymond Hatfield:

I totally believe that. Even in my own experience as a photographer, I've been to shoots where say the couple, they just weren't meshing with me as well as I had hoped. However, they were very, friendly in front of the camera and they looked great. And when I look back to share those photos, I think like, Hmm, this one wasn't so good. You know, this one wasn't my best set of photos, but whenever I share them, they always seem to get, the most amount of interactions or, praise from people. But I think that it's because it's not a bad photo. It's simply because I didn't connect with the couple as well as I could have with other couples, I suppose. Right. Yeah, and they might feel that too.

Allie Siarto:

Yeah, yeah, so it's different. You still need to have, you know, Photos that are beautiful for the outside world because they weren't there. They don't have that experience in that context to go with it. But for the couple themselves, if you want them to like sing your praises from the rooftops and love that photo and share that photo and print that photo and put it in their home, they have to have an emotional connection to it. Like everything in my house, even if it's an imperfect photo, I have very imperfect photos framed in my house, but the moment was real and that's what mattered.

Raymond Hatfield:

So that's so yeah So what could you say to or I guess let's put you back in the situation obviously that family had a bit of a scenario where they needed to change the venue, you needed to find a new place for them. You went out of your way to try to find somebody to help accommodate them. You couldn't. So you took it upon yourself to find a venue to get them photos that they would be more comfortable in, especially with young kids, not wanting to be out in the cold. If that obviously shows that you went above and beyond to deliver a great client experience. Let's say that doesn't happen. You go out and a couple says we want to do it outdoors. You go outdoors. Everything is smooth sailing. How do you still ensure that you, deliver a great client experience?

Allie Siarto:

There's still an experience from the beginning to the end. So from the time that they come to my website, the experience begins, and that's where I'm giving them tips from the beginning. A lot of my clients actually come from reading articles or tips that they found where they're like searching for other information and then they find me. So from the very beginning, I'm a resource to them. So like, they're looking for a venue related to such and such. And I've written a blog post about like the, okay, example, this is kind of a tangent, but it's related. So, I, one week was talking to friends and I was like, I love small weddings, like I had kind of a small destination wedding and I just love the smaller weddings and I want to shoot more of them. And they're like, well, you should write a blog post. That's like the top five. venues in the area for small weddings. And so I was like, done, do it. So I wrote a blog post, like the top five Lansing, because I'm in Lansing, Michigan, Lansing area, the top five, like Lansing venues for a small Small intimate wedding and I put it on Pinterest. I put it on the blog and, posted a couple of different places. And a week later I booked a wedding, a small wedding for my, the one, like number one venue that I had listed on that list. So they're finding me in these ways where they're like, like, I actually have couples come to me cause I do a lot about like locations and tips and things. And they'll come to me and be like, Hey, I saw you wrote this article. I found you through a lot through Pinterest. And we haven't even picked our venue yet, but. Okay. What do you think about this one? And then we'll get back to you on the actual photos once we have a date, cause we don't know our date yet. So a lot of them are finding me that way and they're getting resources from the very beginning. When they inquire for a wedding, they get an automatic reply, it's very responsive that gives them like, Hey, I'll get back to you and let you know if my, if I'm available on that date, but in the meantime, here's some more advice that's really going to help you. And so I'm helping them write their timeline. Nobody knows where to start on that.

Raymond Hatfield:

If you've never been married, I tell this to brides all the time. How are you expected to know what you're supposed to do? Right, you don't

Allie Siarto:

know how long stuff takes. I have this whole guide that like walks them through everything. A guide on do you need a second photographer? So they feel like I'm a really big resource from the beginning. Or for a portrait, I just have, again, it's like very responsive. I give them tips on what to wear. I mail out a style guide that helps them with what to wear. Gives them advice on where to get their makeup done. It gives them, again, ideas of what they can put in their home. It gets them really inspired with the brides. I talk about touch points. So I have an email series that goes out once a week for 13 weeks where it's answering all those questions that they either knew they had or they didn't know they had yet. And so when I'm meeting with them at the consultation, they'll be like, Oh, well, What do we do if it rains? And I'm like, Oh, funny. I actually have an email on that that you'll get, but here's just wait

Raymond Hatfield:

eight weeks and you'll find out.

Allie Siarto:

I'll be like, well, I'll tell you the basics. But funny enough, that's actually a really common question. So I have an email. They're like, Oh, good. Like, I'm not alone. Other people have the same same questions. And then it's making a point to dress, dress. Well, you know, I learned that from the very first book. The Andre who I worked with before dress well into my brand and look professional. And I can't believe how many times at weddings I've had people come up to me and say, like you or me and my second photographer, you're doing such a great job. And I'm like, you haven't even seen my photos, but it's because I'm dressed professionally. They see me working hard. I think I swear at getting the Hold fast to hold my two cameras. They like, I got more compliments, not that I looked good, but that I was doing a great job when I bought that thing. Cause they were like, this girl knows what she's doing. So, it's just like, it starts from the very first contact point and it goes all the way through its touch points where you're giving advice every step of the way. You're anticipating their questions based on frequently asked questions so that you're answering the questions either even before they know they have them or along, you know, anything that they ask. You're very responsive with those things. You're setting expectations. With weddings, you're planning out everything down to like, who's going to call out names at the family with the family list down to literally like mom is not allowed to call out names and your wedding coordinator is not allowed to call out names because like, I know that doesn't work. So they appreciate that because I'm going to set them up for success because I know, I know from experience what works and what doesn't.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right.

Allie Siarto:

And then after the wedding, they get an email immediately the next day. That's like, here's what's going to happen next. Just as a reminder, they get a preview really quickly. And then they get the experience of getting to sit down together and see their photos for the first time as a slideshow. So it's, it's a much more emotional experience. And I always tell them, I used to send the photos and they were just a gallery and every, and like every ride would just email me back and be like, Oh my gosh, I looked at these at work and I like stopped working all day and it was so fun. And then I'd be like, what about your husband? And they'd be like, uh, yeah. Oh yeah, right.

Raymond Hatfield:

He needs to see these too.

Allie Siarto:

Right? And I like did the same thing. Like my photos came and I looked at half of them before. I was like, Oh, Jeff. Yeah. Wait, wait, come on over. So I forced like force them sounds me. I, have them choose a date. No, I, I like do force them. So like, it's not encouraged. They have to do it, but I guess I couldn't, I'm not there. I make them pick a date when they can both be together to see the photos. And sometimes people have delayed as much as like two weeks beyond the date when they would have otherwise seen the photos, because they want to make a point to be together and be like, very present. And so they're willing to do that. They're willing to wait if it makes for a better experience where they, and it's not on, I have the photos ready. They're good to go, but they want just as much as I do. They want to have a good experience so they can sit back and have music and they're more emotionally tied to it. Just think about, you know, when you can like pour a glass of wine and have music and

Raymond Hatfield:

be under that tree with your best friends and have that wine experience. I totally get

Allie Siarto:

it. Exactly. Instead of, sitting at work and clicking through the photos, kind of like trying not to get caught not working. Yeah, yeah,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah. Right, right. Well, I mean, all of those are like really great tips. And I'm sure that your brides really appreciate everything that you do for them. But, I want to ask, what were you doing before? Maybe, you said that you had shot some portraits before. And you would show those off to brides. There's a lot of photographers who are listening to this right now who, maybe they're just charging 100 for a portrait session or something. what's something that they can do to improve their client's experience?

Allie Siarto:

I think you can. Wait, real quick.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. You said a lot of things about like educating the clients, right? And that makes sense. A lot of the things that you're sharing is helpful for the clients. Let's take it one step even further back and say that somebody is just getting into portrait photography and maybe they're not, they don't know everything about, photography. What could go wrong?

Allie Siarto:

Yeah. They don't know what advice to give because they haven't figured it out yet.

Raymond Hatfield:

Exactly. What sorts of things can they do? Yeah.

Allie Siarto:

Well, I think that the very first thing you should focus on is your posing because that is so much a part of the client experience. And for me, I am a really big fan of kind of like the, I started with, I took like the beloved class from gesture, gesture rocks years ago. And now like the unposed field guide is a big thing. And so I think it's worth investing, like, before you go and buy a hundred presets again, I think it's worth investing in a some posing courses or advice and there's every kind of school of thought and I am definitely in the school of thought of the kind of unposed that's not totally the right terminology. Like you have to pose them in a way that they're going to face the camera in the right way. Like they're going to look flattering, but using prompts and using motion to get them to feel comfortable asking them questions that are going to get them to laugh. And I can't give those away because they're not mine to give, but I'll say that they've changed everything in my business. And, I already for years have been using these prompts, and I've made up my own prompts, and I'll just make them up on the fly sometimes, and some work really well, and some I'm like, yeah, we'll use that one again. But I even, like, just bought the Unposed field guide because I just wanted some fresh prompts. It's to be able to throw at people because if I do their engagement photos, I want to use different prompts for their weddings. And it's just everything. I mean, we had the first session that I did after buying that set, like we laughed for an hour straight. I learned so much about the couple because it's asking them questions about like telling stories about themselves and they're laughing and they're having fun. So I think if you take that approach, people love it. And so often, especially the guys are like. I'm really awkward. I'm not really excited about this. I'm being dragged along. And then like the biggest compliment I get is when the guy at the end is like, that was actually really fun. I didn't think it was going to be, and I had a great time. And you know, it was like a date. It was really fun. So I think that even if you know nothing else and you have nothing to give in terms of tips that you should, you know, get really good at like natural posing and you can buy resources like, I sell my bride guide you can buy like a lot of people sell templates i've invested in that in the past when I didn't necessarily know like email templates that were things like how to prepare for a session because I was like, I don't know what to tell them to wear I'm, not sure so finding things on Pinterest, links on Pinterest that you can send them to, like, just create a Pinterest board of outfits that you like, that you can say, Hey, I created a Pinterest board for you. Here's some ideas that will get you started. Just, uh, It's really basic things that don't take a lot of experience. You can kind of like learn, you can either buy templates or you can kind of get enough of a feel to be able to give enough advice. And then it is also little things like just keeping an eye out for those details for them, looking at them and being like, Hey, your hair's in your face, I'm going to help you or, your shirt is crooked and I'm going to even it out. Like they are going to, Oh, thank you. I didn't notice that. So they feel confident in that knowing that they look good.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. We've talked a lot about the unposed, uh, posing cards in the beginner photography podcast, Facebook group, because it's one of those things that I think when you're first starting out in photography, you naturally just kind of start shooting landscapes. Cause it requires no extra interaction, like through anybody else, right? You don't have to get anybody together. You shoot landscapes and then you think, maybe I want to shoot like people, maybe I want to photograph people. You have one session, you don't know how to pose. It's terrible. And then you're like, I'm never doing this again. Bye. I also own the, Unpost cards, and like you said, I love them to death, and I had a very similar experience after my first session using them, it was just so much fun, and it just totally changed my photography completely, because now I wasn't focused about, like, Okay, let me think. Okay, she's got to do this with her elbow and this and now it's me learning more about them and that really elevates that client experience. It all goes back to that experience. And you have stories

Allie Siarto:

to tell and relate back to and then when you're like posting it, you can post like something that's funny related to it and you just learn so much about them. So I know my first, my first session with a couple, it was my friends. I was like, please let me bring you around Chicago and take your photo. And everything was very romantic because romantic is easy to be like, put your foreheads together, like, you know, hug here and it's fine. Like I still will do a little bit of that, but honestly, like 95 percent of the photos I take, I'm going for lighthearted And like smiling and laughing. That's the best thing I can get. And I found having hired associates and bringing them onto my team. That's the number one feedback that I would get in the early days was like, we really feel like we're a lighthearted couple. Like everybody has that. Right. And we want it. We want to make sure that we're getting photos that reflect that we're lighthearted. We're posing like. a lot of people just don't feel like that's them. If it's like, you don't just put your foreheads together on an everyday basis. And yeah, so you're like, that's nice. You want to remember that love and that feeling and that connection, but you also really want to remember the laughter and you have to have a way to bring that out of people. And I like it to be real instead of just saying, okay, laugh. Ha ha ha. I like it to be real where they are like, laughing. You can just tell when they are legitimately laughing and going back to the experience, they remember that they were laughing instead of faking it. If they look at a photo and they're fake laughing, they know they're fake laughing. So they like will always look at it and be like, oh yeah, it's my fake laugh. But if they're laughing for real, they're like, oh my gosh, remember when like he said this and she said

Raymond Hatfield:

this. I know, I love to ask wedding and portrait photographers this question. This is my favorite question to ask have you obviously you focus a lot on client experience It's probably the number one thing that I think that you really strive for right obviously great pictures and then client experience Have you ever been to a wedding or a portrait session where you've had like a really embarrassing moment that? You potentially learned something from and how did you work your way out of it?

Allie Siarto:

I don't know if there's ever been anything that's like over the top embarrassing, but it's probably all those little, like I said, those little pain points, like something goes wrong, and I feel like, well, like, okay, here's one example that happened kind of after the wedding. I was still like going back and forth to Chicago, so I photographed a wedding in Chicago, and the mother of the groom emailed me a really angry email after the wedding and she was very mad at me and she said you didn't take, you hardly took any photos of me and I went back and I was like, oh, well, I took 65 photos of you. Here you go. I put together a special gallery of your photos and she wrote back and she's like, well, that's great. I don't like any of them. I don't like the angle. These are from the side and from this angle. I just don't like myself in them, so you didn't take enough. And what did I learn from that experience? I learned that of every wedding, I need to go up to all the parents and I need to say, Hey, did you get everything you want? Do you want me to take any more photos with you with anybody else? And, um, sometimes they'll be like, no, we're good. Thank you. But I appreciate that. And sometimes they'll be like, Yes! Like they're so excited and they're like, come with me! And they'll bring me along and they'll take photos with their friends. And they're happy because you know what? I will never get that email again because I have asked and I have ensured that I am getting the photos that they want. So, that was like a major pain point. I was like, It's horrible to get an email like that, even if I felt like it wasn't like, I felt like I had taken plenty of her, but she didn't. It's all about, expectations. So I found a way to make sure that I'm not going to experience that again. And they're not going to again, because I'm going to say to the bride, the groom and all the parents, did I get everything that you wanted? Are there any other photos you want with anybody else that you want to remember being with today?

Raymond Hatfield:

I love it. That's a great tip. And something that I think Possibly gets overlooked quite often. Maybe photographers just think that it's just the couple that they're working for and who cares about the parents, but

Allie Siarto:

yeah. And especially when the parents, you know, they're a lot of times they're paying for it. And so they want to know that they have nice photos of themselves too. That's really important to care about the parents too.

Raymond Hatfield:

For sure. For sure. Well, Allie, you've have came on and you've shared a ton of great information today, and I really appreciate your time for sure. Can you tell the listeners where they can find out more about you and the Photo Field Notes podcast?

Allie Siarto:

Oh, yeah, sure. Okay, so I just set up the Photo Field Notes podcast on Instagram, finally split it out. So it's at Photo Field Notes on Instagram, and then PhotoFieldNotes. com you can listen to. So kind of a similar format to this, like interviews, and then a mix of just me telling people. Random stories or advice or things that people have asked me. And then I'm also on Instagram as at Allie Ciarto. So it's A L L I E S I A R T O. And then my website is also allieciarto. com and that's my wedding and portrait photography website.

Raymond Hatfield:

Awesome. Well, Allie, again, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate everything that you shared and, I look forward to keeping up with you and, following you on Instagram in the future.

Allie Siarto:

Sure thing. Thanks Raymond. Of

Raymond Hatfield:

course. If you only implement one thing into your photography from today's episode, let it be this one action item. Audit your process. Take a moment to think about, how your process looks to clients. How do you reply to clients? What are the questions that they ask you? Do you send some sort of prep email? A good test I would give myself is asking, have I told them the next steps? Like, do they know what the next step is? For an inquiry, have I made it clear that the next step is to get on a phone call? For the contract, have I made it clear, that their date is not locked in until their deposit is paid. Before a shoot, have I made it clear, where I will meet them at what time, what my number is, just in case they get lost or something? And after a shoot have I made it clear when I will deliver the photos so that they don't sit at home and wonder if I just forgot about them. So there you go. Audit your process. Hold their hand, reassure them that you are the professional and that they are in good hands. That's it for today. Until next week, remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you'll be tomorrow.