The Beginner Photography Podcast

Embracing Precision and Collaboration in Dance Photography with Emily Brunner

• Raymond Hatfield

Share episode

#555 Emily Brunner is a performance dance photographer from Philadelphia. The discussion focuses on Emily's journey from capturing casual photos of her children to specializing in dance photography. Key themes include transitioning into a photography niche, understanding the technical and artistic elements of dance photography, and the importance of collaborating with dancers to accurately capture their art. A central takeaway is Emily's emphasis on intentional photography, highlighting the need to capture movement with precision and artistry by mastering both technical settings and the dancer's form.

KEY TOPICS COVERED

  1. Journey into Dance Photography: Emily shares her experience evolving from family photography to a specialized focus on dance. Her motivation stemmed from a desire to document her daughter's dance performances, leading her to pursue professional skills in this niche.
  2. Technical Aspects and Equipment: The episode discusses the critical role of the right equipment, like DSLRs and high-quality lenses, in capturing dance movements. Emily emphasizes mastering manual camera settings to enhance image quality, demonstrating how the right lens can transform photographic outcomes.
  3. Collaboration and Technique: This topic underscores the collaborative nature of dance photography, where the photographer and dancer work together. Emily stresses the importance of safety, precise technique, and the photographer's responsibility to accurately reflect the dancer's skill and artistry.

IMPORTANT DEFINITIONS & CONCEPTS

  • Intentional Photography: Taking photos with specific artistic and technical goals, instead of capturing casual snapshots.
  • Dance Movement Line: The visual impression created by a dancer's posture and movement, crucial in dance photography for conveying grace and power.

DISCUSSION & REFLECTION QUESTIONS

  1. What steps can a photographer take to transition from a hobbyist to a professional niche, and what challenges might they face?
  2. How does collaboration enhance the creative process in photography?
  3. What ethical responsibilities does a photographer have in representing a dancer’s art?

RESOURCES:
Visit Emily Brunner's Website - https://www.emilybrunnerphotography.com/
Follow Emily Brunner on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/emilybrunnerphotography/

Download your free copy of
46 Creative Photo Ideas to Get You Out of a Rut
at https://creativeimageideas.com/

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Emily Bruner:

Until our last day, we're always learning. If you were like me, and you didn't learn about dance earlier in your life, you can learn now. I took a dance class. I asked dancers around me. I would show them photos, and I would say, what's good about this photo? What's bad about it? I'll go to workshops. Watch YouTube videos of dance classes where you see the instructor teaching the class. Observe any dance classes that you have the opportunity to observe because when you're observing a class, you hear the teacher correcting the students. There's a lot of fun ways to learn about it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield, and each week I interview one of the world's most interesting photographers to learn what it really takes to capture beautiful images so that you can start to do the same. In today's rewind episode, we are chatting with dance photographer Emily Bruner, about how to create extremely technical, yet artistic images at the exact same time. But first, the Beginner Photography Podcast is brought to you by Cloud Spot. Clouds spott has everything you need to build a thriving photography business. You can impress your clients, deliver a professional experience, and streamline your workflow all in one platform. So grab your free forever account today over@deliverphotos.com and only upgrade when you and your business are ready. So one thing that I've turned into since my daughter has been getting more and more into sports is becoming that parent with a camera. Because of that, I've had a few other teams approach me and ask me to take photos of their teams. Effectively transitioning from just parent with a camera to skilled known sports photographer. It is weird because it's unintentional, but as you'll hear from today's guest, Emily Bruner, my story is not exclusive to just my daughter's sports, but dance too. And in many ways I think that dance would be so much more difficult because in dance it's capturing both extremely technical but also beautifully artistic elements. So in today's episode with Emily Bruner, you're gonna learn how to decide what to invest your money in when you know it's not just a business yet, but it's still a hobby. How to balance composition and timing together. Because there could be an incredibly technical move that you want to capture, but how can you use your composition to show it off with beauty? You're gonna learn how you have to adopt the mindset of collaboration as it takes working with dancers to ensure that your photos accurately reflect their skills and the art form. And remember, if you wanna grow your skills as a photographer too, you cannot just listen passively. The education and insight can only take you so far. It's not until you actually get out there and start taking action on what you learn, that you will actually move the needle forward. So please don't zone out and waste your time. Take notes and make a plan. That's how you get better today. With that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview. Emily Brunner is a performance dance photographer from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, who says that she loves dance photography because of the way that it allows us to see the movement, the lines, and the power of dance in a way that we can't with our own eyes. Emily, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Emily Bruner:

Thank you so much for having me, Raymond.

Raymond Hatfield:

I am super excited to talk to you today for a few reasons. One of them being is that over the past few months we have become closer within a group of photographers where we kind of talk about our goals and getting there. and I've seen you already just in the past few months grow your business and it's something that I had never imagined no ideas about before getting into photography. I haven't interviewed somebody who does dance photography. and just out of happenstance, somebody was asking me about dance photography the other day in the beginner photography podcast, Facebook group. So there is a need for people like you in the world. So again, I'm really excited to talk to you about you and your journey. But before we get there. Can you share with me and the listeners how you got your start in photography in the first place?

Emily Bruner:

So my start in photography really came about, from becoming a parent. I wanted photos of my kids to share with my family who lived far away. And, I just immediately loved how capturing my life allowed me to see it in a different way and allowed me to share, share what was going on in my life. I remember being a kid and enjoying photography with my parents cameras. So maybe I could say I've always been a photographer, but I got really, really into it when I had kids. So maybe about 14 years ago, and I just wanted to learn everything I could about it

Raymond Hatfield:

Obviously you wanted to capture stuff to send to your family but why weren't just the photos on say an iphone good enough for you? Oh,

Emily Bruner:

I wanted them to be beautiful. Um, I would see other photos that I would love and I thought I want my photos to look like that So I guess from the beginning I could tell the difference between a snapshot and a photo taken with intention And I knew that I wanted my photos to to have that intention behind them. And I also knew that if I was taking photos, I just, I wanted to learn about it. I wanted it to become something that I could enjoy and improve upon so that it could be something that's fulfilling for myself rather than just a snapshot that I didn't think twice about.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right, of course, of course. So when that time came to get your first camera, did you already have an idea that you wanted a specific DSLR to get into? Or was it just, let's go down to Costco and buy the first camera that we see?

Emily Bruner:

No, I mean, my husband bought my first DSLR for me as a Christmas gift. before that, I had a little, Canon PowerShot digital cameras. Before that, I had film camera that, had interchangeable lenses that my parents had bought for me. But, my first, real camera in the digital age was, My husband picked out for me and it was a canon and I still shoot with cannons today.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah so Getting that camera when you first got it out of the box. I want to know if you had to judge yourself on a scale from Zero to ten, zero being you had no knowledge of photography whatsoever. This was your first time ever seeing a camera. And ten being world class. Where would you say that your skill level was?

Emily Bruner:

I would say my skill level was maybe around a three or a four.

Raymond Hatfield:

Because

Emily Bruner:

I had taken photos, you know, I used my parents film cameras when I was a kid. I never, shot in manual. I remember trying once to shoot in manual when I was at Niagara Falls. Because I knew that I wanted to get this. You know the blurred water.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah,

Emily Bruner:

I didn't have a clue how to do it. This is with the film camera When I was in college and when I got the photos back, they were terrible I mean it's blurry and they were like blue and purple and So that was my only time that I ever really tried to shoot in manual before like there was no internet then really so I had no knowledge whatsoever Nowhere to research how to do it So I would say that when I got that first DSLR out of the box, I knew just a tiny, tiny bit. but really very little. Most of what I knew was more along the lines of composition rather than technical knowledge of how to use the camera.

Raymond Hatfield:

So how did you go about learning photography and, I'm assuming that you are shooting in manual now, is that correct?

Emily Bruner:

I do, yeah. Pretty much, I usually shoot in manual unless the lighting situation around me is changing super rapidly and I can't keep up with changing my settings.

Raymond Hatfield:

You're right, of course. So, how did you go about learning manual once you got this new, digital camera from your husband?

Emily Bruner:

So when I got the new digital camera from my husband, I actually shot with it for several years just with the kit lens, not really an automatic. so really focusing on the composition, capturing the moment, my perspective, Anything that I could do within my own mind and control with my own hands. That's kind of what I was focusing on but then I wanted to I wanted to do more and I researched and I realized I needed a better lens So that was like my first step into Really getting super serious into photography. I got a new lens.

Raymond Hatfield:

What lens was that?

Emily Bruner:

it was a sigma 30 millimeter one point f 1. 4. So okay Kind of

Raymond Hatfield:

went all the way

Emily Bruner:

I did. Yeah, and I loved it. You It really transformed my photos in a big way.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, coming from the kit lens, I would imagine that it would just be a completely different experience.

Emily Bruner:

Yeah, I loved it. It was a great purchase. And even though I rarely use it now, because it's for, the crop sensor camera, and now I shoot with a full frame camera, I don't want to sell the lens because It's kind of like meaningful to me But yeah, so that was My first like real serious like dive into it and then I again I knew that I wanted to learn Learn more when I got that first great lens and I saw the difference I realized gosh if I really learned how to use my camera I bet I could do even more and it was at that point that I purchased an online course To dive in and just learn as much as I could about my camera

Raymond Hatfield:

So you didn't even go like the book route or YouTube tutorials. It was just, I'm going to jump head first into an online course.

Emily Bruner:

Yeah, yeah, I did it just it fits my personality. I don't tend to read much and there's too much of a rabbit hole with youtube videos because You just I don't know. I needed somebody to like guide me really specifically keep me on track Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield:

this is exactly what you need to do. That makes sense. That makes sense I too love online courses for just for that exact reason They're so hyper focused and you don't have to go hunting around for literally You There's like 24 hours of videos uploaded to YouTube every minute or something so trying to find the right ones is insane and takes a long time so.

Emily Bruner:

Yes.

Raymond Hatfield:

can you share what course it was that you signed up for and how did you like it?

Emily Bruner:

Yeah, so I signed up for Schultz Photo School's, Photo Fix class, and I really loved it. just completely loved it. it was everything I wanted it to be. it told me, it was teaching me all the things that I kind of, like, knew I wanted to learn, and it did it in a really focused way. It was a great experience doing that.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm hmm. So at the time, you were still focused on just photographing your children.

Emily Bruner:

Yes.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm hmm. So I want you to tell me a little bit about the dance photography side. At what point did this come along in your life?

Emily Bruner:

well, my oldest daughter, who's 14 now, she started dancing ballet when she was four. and so for those first few years, I was just taking, Kind of like snapshots of her. but she really got into it. quickly it became obvious that she loved it. And she started performing more and more. And I wanted beautiful photos of her performing on stage. And I didn't, if I could have hired someone to do it, I would have, to be honest. But there, I just didn't, there was nobody I could hire to take the photos that I wanted of her. So I said, you know what? I'm gonna learn how to do it and I'm gonna do it.

Raymond Hatfield:

okay, so because that's a big jump from I'm going to photograph my kids to now going into a very, specialized area of photography, did you go, you photographed your daughter, these photos were beautiful, did other people see them? what gave you the spark to pursue it? even further.

Emily Bruner:

Yeah, it was really just sharing my photos. and it was a gradual progression. It wasn't like snap overnight. My photos of her performing on stage are beautiful. I had to do a lot of trial and error and learn that way. She dances so much. I had a lot of opportunities to practice. And figure out what I needed to do but once once I got some photos that I was proud of I shared them on facebook The photos of my daughter I shared them on facebook and then the photos that I took of other dancers in the performances if I knew the parents I would give them the photos and then the school I gave them the photos that I took as well. And really me giving those photos to the school was what? prompted Dance photography to become a business for me

Raymond Hatfield:

So, did they ask for it?

Emily Bruner:

They asked me, yep. They said, oh, these are wonderful. These are great. We didn't know you were a photographer. Would you be willing to photograph our upcoming recital and sell those photos to the parents?

Raymond Hatfield:

Ah, I love it. I love it. this just kind of fell in your lap. I mean, obviously, with lots of practice and passion for it, it fell into your lap. so let's talk a little bit about, a little bit more about, the dance photography itself, because there's really two different types of dance photography. there's the performance, and then there's portraits. So if dance photography is more than just photographing people dancing, can you explain more about what else there is, to this?

Emily Bruner:

Well, with dance photography in particular, it's really a collaboration between the photographer and the dancer. Even if the dancer is in a performance and doesn't quite realize they're being photographed, it's still kind of a collaboration. That's their art. The photography is our art. And in the same way that we as photographers would kind of be horrified, like imagine, your worst image or a photo you take that's blurry, dark, the white balance is yucky. imagine if that photo was shared. All over the internet by your friends and family, you would be embarrassed. So in that same regard, when we're taking a photograph of a dancer, they want to look their best. They want their technique to look as good as it possibly can. So as photographers, we need to be very, very careful that the photos that we're, sharing of them that we're giving to them or selling to them or sharing with our friends and family in that, in those pictures, the dancer's technique. is good, that their toes are pointed, that their feet are nice and straight, that their legs are straight, that their shoulders aren't all tensed up, that they have a nice expression on their face. All these things, all these things that they've worked so hard for and they've trained for, we need to make sure that our photos are showing that, showing the dancers to the best of their abilities.

Raymond Hatfield:

So that, that's more of the performance side. what about the portrait side? Because, first of all, is doing the portrait something that still requires a stage? or does it require a studio? Where do these portraits typically happen?

Emily Bruner:

Yeah, I mean a dance portrait where you where it's more like you, you know Just you and the dancer and you're taking the time for them to pose and you're working on their pose and trying to take a beautiful photo you're creating the photo that can happen anywhere in my experience We never do that on the stage to rent out a stage or find a stage that's available to us to do that It's just not really feasible, right? So in my experience doing dance portraits, we would be doing that either, outside. So it's somewhat similar to just any other portrait, finding a place that has nice light and, a nice backdrop. And then for a dancer in particular, it also needs to have a nice and safe. Ground for them to work on and stand on and dance on So outside is an option on streets in parks really just anything that you would do with a normal regular just portrait session Or you can do it in a studio and by studio I don't literally mean you need to have a photography studio, but find a room that's big enough You need a pretty big space to photograph a dancer Find a room that's big enough and either bring in your own backdrop You Or use the walls in the room. And, when you're photographing a dancer inside, you're really gonna need to bring in some light. You're gonna need to start using strobes to get enough light to photograph them. Because there's so much less light inside.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right, right. I want to talk a little bit more about the posing side though, because this is something that I feel like so many beginners already have a hard time with enough for just regular people. Right now we have to deal with somebody who, is used to doing, something in an exact way. are you manipulating that at all? can you kind of walk me through that whole process there, how you get somebody in the pose?

Emily Bruner:

Yeah, so, we are manipulating it, in a way. with dance photography, we're taking something that's, four dimensional. there's time, and then there, there's the three dimensions of space. So we're taking that, and we're compressing it into two dimensions. So, Taking time out of it is one thing, but then taking the three dimension, dimensional pose and transforming it into two dimensions makes it a little bit tricky. So when I, when we're posing someone, a dancer, start with a dancer and ask them like, what are your ideas? What sort of poses do you want to do? There's, all dancers have different abilities. So we want to make sure that whatever we're trying to photograph For them that it's something that they're good at something that they feel strong and safe doing so we never want to push them into Doing something that we think is amazing, but might be beyond their comfort ability, right? Yeah, so we I always start with them and ask for some inspiration ideas they always have ideas They always know what they want to do. So we start with that and then I have them do the movement, or do the pose for me, a few times, and I look at it, and I'm looking at it, trying to decide. what the best angle is going to be for the camera. So if they're doing an air besk, that's where their leg like goes back in the air behind them. Okay. Straight. Their leg is straight. If we do that. So their leg is pointing behind them, like away from the camera. I'm not going to see. So, we're photographing an arabesque, we want to see that leg, we want that leg to look nice and long, so we want that leg, parallel to the camera. those are the kind of things that we're thinking about at the beginning of a pose. And then once we have them positioned, we might turn them ever so slightly to get their leg to look as good as it can possibly look, then we start shooting. and we might tweak it a little bit as we go. when I'm shooting them, I want to have a nice low camera angle that makes them look tall, makes their legs look nice and long. So in that regard, it's a lot different from a portrait of a person, more photographing people. We often want their eyes to look nice and big. So we want to be slightly above eye level, but with dancers, we want to get lower so that we're not distorting their body in an unflattering way. We want their legs to look nice and long.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, man. That's really interesting. I never, never really thought about it like that. so obviously before I interview, I was looking at your website, I was looking at your portfolio and I was looking at your images and there's kind of this very comfortable feeling as if, all the dancers were on stage. And even like for your portraits, that's kind of like why I thought that the camera was so low because we, as an audience would be sitting lower, but that makes so much more sense that it just looks better on camera to accentuate those legs. Tricks of the trade there. Yeah. I love it, I love it. are the poses that you are asking these dancers to get into, are they just, holding like a, I was gonna say a pose, but like a, dance move that they're used to? or are you trying to get them to do more? did that question make sense?

Emily Bruner:

Yes, I think that makes sense. So, with classical dance, with ballet, there's really like a lot of, sort of, standard poses we would do. With modern contemporary dance, there's going to be a lot more improvisation going on. But in a photo session with a dancer, we're typically working with, some sort of, Pose something that's kind of established in it that is often in pieces that are going to be choreographed for the dancers So these are things we're not usually starting with something that's never been done before We're starting with something that already exists and people are familiar with And we might tweak it a little bit, we might rotate the body a little bit or do something different with the arms or the direction in which they're looking with their head to Change it up a little bit but there's standards with dance just like there are with music performance, you know with playing an instrument or photography There's there are standards that we that we need to stick to Yeah, and when the dancers are posing i'm not really asking them to hold a pose because dance, is movement. And if they're stationary and trying to hold a pose for a photo, it's going to not look right. It's going to look kind of tense. So I think of the poses that we do as movements. And I ask my dancers, I say, you don't need to hold that for me. I need you, to get into it and then go out of it the same way that you would in a performance or in a class. And then I'm timing the to capture it at the apex of the movement that they're doing.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. How many times do you think you have to have them redo a move before you nail the shot?

Emily Bruner:

sometimes we get it on the first shot. Sometimes we get it after just, two or three. Other times we work it for 20 minutes. Wow. It really just depends on what we're trying to do and the dancer and how quick my reflexes are that day.

Raymond Hatfield:

okay, that was a good amount about posing there. I think that I was looking at dance photography kind of all wrong. You Possibly because I am just so uneducated in the field completely that to me it looks so much more difficult right in terms of the posing where I said that a lot of beginners have a hard time enough posing Regular people now we have to pose dancers But if these dancers already have some sort of base where of moves that they already get into would you say that is helpful to use the photographer You

Emily Bruner:

Very, very helpful. Yeah. And especially for me, I am not a dancer. And I was not a dancer. So everything that I've learned about dance, I've learned over the last 14 years from watching my daughter, taking a dance class myself, which was very humbling, but I wanted to learn more about it. with older more experienced dancers, Like knowing how to pose them is not quite as difficult as it seems but knowing how to recognize in your photo That they're doing the pose Or that maybe they're doing it correctly, but that your camera angle is flattering. And that we have them turned in such a way that it's showing them, showing their lines, literal lines of their legs and their feet and their arms, that it's flattering. Making all of those look as beautiful as possible. That's the tricky part. And now younger, younger dancers, you know, kids who are maybe like 8, 9, 10 years old. that's going to be a lot, harder, honestly, to photograph. Because, we're, as photographers, going to need to give them a lot more guidance.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, I see. So that's where being more educated in dance, in the movement, would really help. So we're talking a lot about lines, and the importance of, kind of showing that power, and stability, I guess. So how important of a role does focal lengths play in capturing these images? Because, a wide angle lens is really going to distort, lines. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Emily Bruner:

Yes. Yeah. I prefer to use the longest focal length that I can. Somewhere in the range of 70 to 200, I really, if at all possible, I don't want to shoot any wider than 70 millimeters, and this is on my full frame camera, because you're right. Wider angles are going to completely distort. Their shape and for a dancer where their body shape and movement is their art if we distort that really not flattering to them and it's not a very honest way to show what they're doing doesn't really show what they're doing very well. So when i'm inside I usually am using 70 millimeters because the spaces that I have access to inside are just not Big enough to allow me to go all the way to 200 millimeters If I'm shooting a performance, however, where we're in a big auditorium, I am often shooting at 200 millimeters.

Raymond Hatfield:

Just because you have that extra space. Yes. Yeah. Sure. So I'd imagine, obviously, being that far back, needing that telephoto lens. do you have any recommendations for anybody just getting into, photography who wants to start dance who maybe the 70 to 200. Two eight is a little bit of a stretch. Do you have any recommendations for what else they could use?

Emily Bruner:

So if we're talking about photography, of performances, so in inside the theater you really are going to need the wide open aperture of like a 70 to 200 lens or 24 to 70 lens to have enough light to capture the movement But with dance, there's also a lot of moments where people are not moving, where they are taking a second in between poses to not even transition, but at the end of a pose or at the beginning of a movement, at the beginning of a piece that they're starting at the end of a piece, there are times where people are not moving or they're not moving very fast. So even if you don't have a super fancy lens, You could use your kit lens, you know, and zoom in all the way to 55 millimeters. Or if you have a kit lens that, goes all the way to 300 millimeters, You could use that. you're just going to need to compensate for the more stop down, close down aperture and, increase your ISO to make up for that. If you're using a hit lens your shutter speed is going to be a little slower. it's going to be slow enough that if a dancer jumps across the stage, then they'll, there'll be a little blur. A lot

Raymond Hatfield:

of blur, sure. So would you say to, prioritize a faster aperture, say over, Longer reach of the focal length.

Emily Bruner:

That's a good question. It depends on what you're doing If you have a a dancer if one of your kids is dancing and they're doing a lot of performances In their performing inside. I would say maybe prioritizing aperture might be a good thing 50 millimeters will be okay. if you have like a 24 millimeter lens or even 35 You might end up with a little distortion But you can scoot further back if you're not right on top of them taking a picture with the wide angle lens If you're a little further back, they're not in there in the center of the photo They're not going to be as distorted as if you're you know, right there taking a picture of them photos of your dancer outside Before or after her recital or his recital for example you don't really need the fast lens quite as much because if you're outside you have lots of light You don't necessarily need that big wide open aperture So in that case for a portrait outside of your dancer to celebrate their recital I would say prioritize the longer focal length use a longer focal length and get yourself down low Don't take the picture from up above kind of looking down at them. So their heads big and their legs are tiny,

Raymond Hatfield:

right? That's funny. Yeah, exactly. obviously, you wouldn't be able to do that in a performance setting. but during a performance setting, are you running around from side to side during the actual performance, like while parents in the audience to capture these photos? No,

Emily Bruner:

no one should ever do that. I go to dress rehearsals. That's my secret. if a dance school asks me to do a job for them and to photograph the performance, I strongly suggest that I go to their dress rehearsal rather than the performance. Because at the dress rehearsal, I can move around. I can try some photos where I'm close to the stage. I can try some where I'm far back and capturing the whole stage in the lens. I'm not in favor of photographing during performances, both as a photographer, because that's just No fun. Um, and as a audience member, that's distracting. If you're a parent trying to take photos during the performance, you're missing the performance taking photos And then for the dancers on stage it can be distracting It can be very distracting if they see somebody moving around or walking around they might think somebody's leaving their performance One big thing about performance photography if you are taking a photo during the performance You And even if you're taking the photos during a dress rehearsal, turn your flash off. Don't, no flash, no

Raymond Hatfield:

flash. That's why you gotta get that faster lens.

Emily Bruner:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

it's funny cause, once we had, Charlie, and we started going to these, like little school performances that they put on. They're not dances or anything, but just, like little kindergarten songs that they sing for all the parents. And. you watch all the parents not watch their kids, they just watch their kids through their phones. You know what I mean? And wow I like to you know Pull out the phone to take one photo just to kind of remember the moment and use it as my one second a day I can imagine that in a dance setting, that you would really want these photos of your child being in a situation, doing something that, that not only are they spending a lot of time working on, but also you don't get time to go see it very often unless It's a performance, so having a photographer run around during the performance would just be very distracting. Would be very distracting, so I'm glad that you did. It's

Emily Bruner:

going to turn people angry. I would

Raymond Hatfield:

assume so. And,

Emily Bruner:

and, if you're sitting in a seat trying to take photos from your seat, they're not going to be that great. there's going to be like heads in front of you. You're probably like not at the angle of the perspective that you want. So just go to the dress rehearsal and ask Ask permission ask the school. Hey, can I go to the dress rehearsal and take some photos then? if the school has an open dress rehearsal where they allow parents to come in They would so much rather you take photos then than during the performance. And a lot of performances will say at the beginning, please put away all recording devices. yeah, whether it's photos. Or videos. Uh, so yeah, dress rehearsals. That's the perfect time to take your photos.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. More weddings need signs that say, please put away your devices. I shared a photo in the Beginner Photography Podcast Facebook group of a guest at a wedding that I was just at, who I couldn't believe it. just got, Right in front of the aisle as like the bride was coming down and you missed the shot It's like what do you do? you always got to prepare for these things and get out of the way But I mean it was just so blatantly right in the middle of everything and it was just like the brightest yellow Neon dress that you've ever seen in your life. It was atrocious, but, totally went off on a tangent there, so I apologize. I want to go back, to your first client. I want to know when you decided to start charging for this, when you decided, oh, maybe I could do this, how did they find you? were you nervous? How did the session turn out?

Emily Bruner:

So my first dance portrait client, and it's kind of hard to say who the very first dance portrait client was, but in my, in where my business is now, I'm not going to count sort of like a couple things that I did. So my very first real, true dance portrait client, they found me through Google. They had done a Google search for dance photographers. And at that time, I did have my dance photos on my website. none of them were portraits. None of them had been taken inside. They were all, stage photography, performance photography up until that point.

Raymond Hatfield:

Were these your daughter and her dance mates?

Emily Bruner:

the performance photography that I had on my website at that time was from my daughter's school. So it, yes, it was. and then there was a couple other, a couple of other things on there as well, from other kinds of dance that I took some photos of. So this, this client found me from Google and they called me and wanted to know if I would do some dance portraits and they wanted photos. in the studio, with a nice, just plain backdrop and studio lights. I was not prepared for that. I didn't have the gear that I needed for it. And I hadn't done it before, and so I actually, I had a phone conversation with them. I always have a phone conversation with anyone who calls me for work. And, you know, I explained that, we could do a photo session outside, but that I wasn't, really prepared to do one inside. And I referred her to somebody else. I said, you know, I think if that's what you want, you should call this photographer. And, they went and looked at that other photographer and actually then called me back and said, no, you know, we want you to do it. Wow. So I said, okay, well, let's do it. And I bought a backdrop and I bought the lights that I needed and I did some practicing just, at home. I didn't have a space to use, so I asked her if we could use her dance school's space, which they said, yeah, sure, you can come in and use our space. so that's what we did. It was with that being my first sort of studio dance portrait session, it was really nice that we had her dance teacher there with us at the session.

Raymond Hatfield:

I bet.

Emily Bruner:

of her dance teachers, they were able to really Guide her through the movements and the posing in a way that left me completely free to work on the lighting and the camera angles and the

Raymond Hatfield:

photography.

Emily Bruner:

Yes, so we did the photos. it was a wonderful experience. I had so much fun My dancer was so amazing. her mother was nice. The dance teachers were nice. Everybody was so nice It was so much fun And then I got home and worked on the photos that we had selected as her, the ones that she wanted to purchase. And I had a blast editing them. They turned out really beautiful. and some of those are still on my website now. Some of them are my favorite photos, even though it was my first time, shooting with strobes for a dance scene.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, wow. Wow. So much going on all at once. was there anything that you picked up by watching the dance teachers and seeing how they worked with the students?

Emily Bruner:

Yes. I really picked up on, just how important the best possible technique in the photo is seeing them really, really be very, very picky. about where her foot was, how high her leg was, where, how much she was turned out with her leg, where her torso was facing. Just seeing them, work her through those poses, gave me some language to use with my future dancers and allowed me to see what the subtle difference was in having, the foot like this versus like this.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Yeah. I bet that would be invaluable for sure. So, the portrait side, I feel like, is pretty standard after that. you get contacted, you do the shoot, you edit the photos, and then you deliver the product. is there anything else involved that is maybe, unlike Most other forms of photography.

Emily Bruner:

I think one thing to keep in mind is the safety aspect. especially if the dancers are jumping Or especially if they have had some kind of recent Injury and dancers do just like athletes. they do sustain injuries from time to time So we have to be really careful that we are being as safe as possible That the surface on which they are posing and moving is not slippery You So when I'm photographing dancers on the backdrop that I use, which is seamless paper, I have a spray can of rosin that we spray, if they're in pointe shoes, we spray the rosin on the bottoms of their pointe shoes so that when they're on pointe, standing on the paper backdrop, they're not slipping at all.

Raymond Hatfield:

is rosin just like a form of glue, kind of?

Emily Bruner:

Yeah, it's sticky. I think it comes from a tree sap and violinists use it on their boat on their bows So that the hair on the bow is kind of just sticky enough to grab the strings on the violin Dancers use it, you know on their feet To keep them from slipping. So the, what I use in the photo session is it's a spray. it's really nice and easy and not messy. We want to make sure that we don't allow the dancers to do something beyond their ability level and that we are not asking them to do something that's dangerous for them.

Raymond Hatfield:

of course. Okay. that was a great tip. I never would have thought about that. I would have thought, well, as long as there's not water on the floor, we're good. So I'm glad. I'm glad that you shared that. Now I want to talk a little bit more about, the performance photography side of it again, because I'm sure that it's not. The traditional sense like it is portraits where a parent calls you, hires you to do the shoot at a school during a performance because it's the school who's hiring you for the performance. that right?

Emily Bruner:

That's right. Yeah, it's the school.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay, so kind of walk me just a little bit behind the scenes of the business side of this. Does the school pay you to photograph the dancers and then you give away all the photos to the parents or how does that work?

Emily Bruner:

there's kind of two ways to do it in kind of a hybrid way as well. basically whoever is keeping the photos is the one who's paying me. So sometimes a school will hire me and they will pay me. And then I give the photos to them and they use the photos for their marketing or for whatever reason they have. Or maybe they are distributing the photos to their students. I would price it according to whatever their usage is going to be. More often though, what happens is the school contacts me to take photos, and the school pays me a fee so that they can use the photos for their marketing, but then I also am selling the photos to all the parents of the dancers. And I do that through an online photo gallery.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay, so, having all the parents come into one place to be able to sell photos online is something that I also hear a lot of questions about from new photographers. They don't know where to go. They don't know what sorts of Products to offer they don't know, what is the best system to use to sell, photos online do you have any words of advice on maybe how many products to offer and even how to Just a very basic of how to price products

Emily Bruner:

Yeah, so finding a system that will allow you to sell is fairly easy shoot proof and pixie set are both Really great. And, they have, differences between them and there's a lot of similarities between them as well. Both of those are excellent systems to use for this sort of thing in terms of what products to offer. I'm a fan of starting simple and then improving things as you go. So if this is your first time selling any, anything with photos, and if you don't actually print a lot of photos yourself, and you don't have a lot of experience with printing photos and most of your work is with digital. I would say just sell digital photos. Just sell, you know, keep it simple. If it's stressing you out, get it more simple. Because if you do a great job with this first sale, then they'll call you back and have you do more in the future. And then at that point you can add more options, you can add more products as you go. in terms of pricing, you really want to make sure that you are pricing things as you go. So that you can cover all your costs and you have to really think about all your costs There's a lot more than just the cost of the photo gallery or the cost of Prints if you're selling prints, you need to think about all your costs your insurance your accounting fees Your paper and you know that you use to print things just you know your office supplies You have to think about all that make sure you're covering all that Make sure that you have enough to pay yourself. However many hours you think you're going to be working on a project, double it. You're going to be working twice as many, at least, if not three times as many as what you think you're going to work. So you want to make sure you charge enough for that. And I know that that's hard to do with something like this, because you're like, well, how many? How many people will buy photos? How many photos will they buy? And I think when you're getting started, you just have to kind of make your best guess, maybe underestimate how much How many people are going to buy and how much they're going to buy and figure out your pricing that way So in a lot of ways you just you have to just dive in and start and then you can always improve as you go

Raymond Hatfield:

That is such a great tip to just try new things, you know go out there and for one just to start simple You that is great. I know myself, I got very overwhelmed when I first started. You know, I thought that I had to provide everything under the sun, and I had to come up with prices for all these things. And, when you go to the store, you see that they're selling things in mass quantities, so prices are lower, and you just assume that that's only what people will pay. so figuring out what it's going to be worth for you, somebody who's not selling in mass quantities, is a, is a great tip. Great tip.

Emily Bruner:

Yep, and I think most people who are buying things from you understand that you are not Walmart. You know, they, I really do, at least in my experience. people understand there's a difference.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, that's a hard thing, but, I'm glad that you shared that. Again, that's another huge hurdle for beginners to get over. Whenever I hear any sort of question about pricing, I know that's going to help a lot of people. can you kind of share now that you've been shooting dance for a while, I'm sure that you've seen a lot of dance photos. I know personally that you've taken dance photography workshops. what are some signs of an amateur dance photographer?

Emily Bruner:

Okay, so some signs of an amateur dance photographer are having a camera perspective where the camera is high And looking like maybe the camera is at face level Or maybe like chest level or maybe even higher especially for the little kids Right, you're even like above them using a wide angle lens, especially if you're close up taking a photo of somebody and then probably the really big thing is If the dancer is not doing the pose correctly, if their foot is like sickled Which means it's sort of like like turned in like this if they're doing a jump and they're toes are not pointed But their toes are kind of like straight out or just kind of like halfway pointed If a knee is bent when it shouldn't be bend. So if the dancers technique is not correct in the photo even if it's a beautiful photo with the most beautiful light, you know, and the most gorgeous background ever, it's not a good photo. I would say those three things are what would tell me that it's amateur or somebody who hasn't yet studied and learned how to take really great dance photos.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, what I'm learning is that this form of photography is very, very, very detail oriented and requires a very, trained eye from the photographer. And it is, I think it's great to hear that you didn't even start off dancing as a child, that you got into this, much later after just watching your own daughter, which just kind of, goes to show that even if you didn't grow up in dance, you can still pursue something like this and be successful, so

Emily Bruner:

that's great. Yes, we can all, we can always learn. I mean, until our last day, we're always learning. you know, if you were like me, and you didn't learn about dance earlier in your life, you can learn now. I took a dance class. I asked dancers around me. I would show them photos, and I would say, what's good about this photo? What's bad about it? I'll go to workshops. Watch YouTube videos of dance classes where you see the instructor teaching the class. Observe any dance classes that you have the opportunity to observe. Because when you're observing a class, you hear the teacher correcting the students. Oh my gosh. So you learn what's proper and what is not. there's a lot of fun ways to learn about it.

Raymond Hatfield:

I never would have thought about that. that is so smart. I would have just googled dance photography tips on YouTube, but the fact of just like, well, let's just see what a class entails is that's so smart. I'm not, I'm not a very smart person. This is why I like having these, uh, conversations with others. Cause now I get these other, perspectives. That's awesome. what do you think would be something that, somebody would be surprised to find out about being a dance photographer?

Emily Bruner:

gosh, I don't know. I mean, something people would be surprised to find out about being a dance photographer. maybe that you need to have, wardrobe supplies on hand. You need scissors to trim away, like, loose strings. You need safety pins. because the costuming, like what they're wearing, the wardrobe is, is also an important part of the photos. So you kind of need to have just some backup supplies. there's also a lot of retouching that often needs to happen. Because with a lot of dance photos, there's a lot of skin showing arms, legs, faces, when people have bruises on their legs, maybe they have a line around their ankle from where they were wearing socks earlier in the day, you know, like, and then, and then they, they take the sock off before the photo session, and it takes several hours for that, I don't know what you call it, that line around the ankle to go away. So if it's still there, you have to edit that out later. so editing dance photos because of all the skin retouching and the wardrobe, is pretty intense.

Raymond Hatfield:

That just all goes back to having that strong attention to detail. I love that. Well, Emily, I want to thank you for your time. You've been very gracious and you have answered every question that I have thrown your way and then some. I asked way more questions than I even had written down and you answered them all wonderfully. I know that the listener is going to get a lot out of this, interview with you. so thank you. Before I let you go, can you share with the listeners where they can, find some of your work online?

Emily Bruner:

Yeah, so my website is www. emilybrunnerphotography. com And brunner is with two n's b r u n n e r That's my website. And then I also have an instagram and it's emilybrunnerphotography And facebook, page for my business Emily Brunner Photography. So they all have the same name. So you can find me in any of those places. Or

Raymond Hatfield:

you can find me at

Emily Bruner:

the, uh, the local theater taking photos of dancers.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Well, again, Emily, I want to thank you so much for coming on and, I always love keeping up with you and your stories and even on Instagram. I love your little weekly, stories that you share on there as well. So, I look forward to keeping up with you and everything that you're doing.

Emily Bruner:

Thanks so much, Raymond.

Raymond Hatfield:

Seriously, incredible chat with Emily Bruner. So Emily, thanks again so much for coming on. Today's action item, meaning the one thing that if you implement it will move the needle forward in your photography journey, is this practice capturing motion. Motion can be incredibly difficult to capture, especially when you're just starting out. You know, there's a lot of elements that you need to have control over from your shutter speed to your auto focus mode. It's not as simple as set it and forget it. If either of those are outta whack, then the motion gets missed. So photograph a friend or family member dancing, or your dog running and playing, fetch, whatever it is, something with motion, a car driving by, whatever. Master just the shutter speed and auto focus modes at first, and once you're able to capture the motion, then work on your composition. And capturing not just a photo of motion, but an intentional image of motion. So there you go. And hey, I would love to see you in the free and amazing beginner photography podcast, Facebook community. So come join us, won't you just head over to beginner photo pod.com/group now. Again, that's beginner photo pod.com/group, and I'll see you inside. Until next week. Remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow.