The Beginner Photography Podcast

Guide to Photographing Your First Major Event with Gina Milicia

• Raymond Hatfield

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#545 Gina Milicia is a seasoned celebrity portrait and lifestyle photographer from Australia. With over 25 years of experience in the field, Gina shares insights into her journey from aspiring sculptor to a celebrated photographer. The episode primarily focuses on the unglamorous realities of a photographer's life, the intricacies of photography, and the art of capturing authentic portraits.

KEY TOPICS COVERED

  1. Getting Started in Photography - Gina shares how her journey began with a love for art and evolved into photography when she got exposed to a world of fashion and celebrity photography. Despite lacking technical expertise at first, her determination and hard work paved the way for her successful career.
  2. The Realities of Professional Photography - Raymond and Gina discuss the perceived glamour of being a professional photographer, while highlighting the actual pressures and challenges, such as the demanding schedules, fleeting shoot opportunities, and the need to establish a quick rapport with subjects.
  3. Techniques for Capturing Authentic Portraits - Gina provides tactical advice on how to make subjects comfortable during a shoot. From using storytelling to relax them to utilizing technical skills like shooting tethered and having backup plans, Gina dives into both the art and science of creating timeless images.

IMPORTANT DEFINITIONS & CONCEPTS

  • Shooting Tethered: The practice of connecting the camera directly to a computer to view images in real-time, aiding in immediate feedback and adjustments.

DISCUSSION & REFLECTION QUESTIONS

  1. How can photographers balance the technical and creative aspects of photography to enhance their skills?
  2. In what ways can understanding a subject's background and personality improve their portraiture?
  3. How do the pressures faced by professional photographers compare to other creative professions?

RESOURCES:
Listen to So You Want to Be a Photographer Podcast 

Learn What Camera Settings to Use in our free guide!
https://perfectcamerasettings.com/

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Gina Milicia:

I think that every photographer, whether you've been doing it for five minutes or five years, what you need to do is go and be photographed by another professional photographer. So that you know what it feels like to be photographed because if you're only ever photographing people, your idea of what that is like is a lot different to actually being in front of the camera and feeling how vulnerable you feel when you're in front of a camera and all of those emotions you go through, you go, I understand now. And then you have empathy for your model. And when you do, I think it makes you a better photographer.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I am your host Raymond Hatfield. And each week I interview one of the world's most interesting photographers to learn what does it really take to capture beautiful images so that you can start to do the same. In today's rewind episode, we are chatting with celebrity portrait photographer, Gina Militia about how to prepare for a big moment, be it working with a celebrity, shooting a once in a lifetime event like a wedding or even just showing up to your very first photo shoot. You know, when I got started shooting weddings before I had got started with a podcast, Gina's podcast, So You Want to Be a Photographer podcast, pivotal in helping me to learn the ins and outs of what it takes to really become a professional photographer. You know, she was a rock star. And to get her on the podcast was really one of those like, first pinch me moments. Unfortunately, Gina passed away unexpectedly in 2022. But her podcast co host Valerie continues to keep the podcast up. Like she pays yearly for, just the hosting costs for anybody who wants to listen. And. I just checked. It's still in the top 1 percent of podcasts worldwide, which is, I mean, amazing. And I think it's a testament to how much of an impact that she made, not only with her camera, but with educating the next generation of photographers like you. Now, in today's episode, you're going to learn why you should prioritize connection with your subject, how to make practice and preparation. Uh, part of your daily routine and get ready for this, how to fairly price your work. Lots here today. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Gina Militia. Today's guest has over 25 years of experience in the photography industry, and is one of Australia's top celebrity portrait and lifestyle photographers. She regularly travels the world shooting for some of Australia's top magazines. She's also the co host of the very popular. So you want to be a photographer podcast, which was actually one of the inspirations for me to start to begin a photography podcast. So today I'm incredibly excited to talk to Gina Militia. Gina, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Gina Milicia:

Thanks for having me, Raymond. It's great to be here. Of course.

Raymond Hatfield:

I mentioned there in the intro that, the So You Want to Be a Photographer podcast, was definitely one of the inspirations for me, to start, this podcast and it's been around for a long time. Can you kind of talk about how you got started and how long it's been going on for?

Gina Milicia:

Well, that's so cool to hear. Thank you. We've been around for I'd say coming up to let me see 2014. So what's that four years?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Yeah It's been a

Gina Milicia:

while.

Raymond Hatfield:

It's insane. It's insane. This road that a podcast can take you on you just start a you know having chats with a friend and all of a sudden it turns into conversations that people want to hear and It slowly builds this community that I think a lot of photographers lack right, especially when you're working from home It can be a very lonely job as a photographer for most wedding and portrait photographers for sure And it is yeah, just having that conversation that you can hear with somebody else. I can tell, that in the beginning it felt like, we were all friends. So I appreciate everything that you have, uh, done for the whole podcast as well. Oh,

Gina Milicia:

thank, that's, that's so great to hear. I mean, I think I was an early adopter of podcasts. I think I listened to my first podcast, maybe 2006.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh wow. So that was a long time before you even started your podcast.

Gina Milicia:

And I think, tips from the top floor was one of the first ones that I listened to. And then I just started getting into other ones and, I just enjoyed having the conversation and, and you're right. Like while you retouching images or things like that, or in the car, you felt like You make friends with these people in your head.

Raymond Hatfield:

Absolutely. It's so great.

Gina Milicia:

And it's really nice. And it's fantastic that there is this great podcast community of photographers now. And, I do feel like we're all friends and yeah, I think it's, it's great. It's an exciting time.

Raymond Hatfield:

It's fun for sure. It's fun for sure. So also in the introduction, you're this, this anomaly where I really didn't have to write anything because, and when I went to go write out an introduction for you, I did my research, and then I realized nobody has a better introduction for their show than Gina herself. So there's nothing that I could have wrote better about you your own introduction for the show. So I appreciate for you already having that ready for me and that worked out great because really your experience is, there's really not much more than I can say for sure. But, uh, so much. Before we get into your experience in working with, in photography for so long, I want you to take me back to the beginning and I want you to tell me how you even got your start in photography in the first place.

Gina Milicia:

Well, I always wish when I'm asked this question that I had, that romantic answer that you hear often. And I'm sometimes I'm a bit jealous when you hear, Oh, yeah, you know, my father and mother were artists. My grandparents were artists. So I used to sit on their knee and watch them take photos and all of that. But it's, it's not the case. So I always loved art. I was always an artist as a child, drawing and in my later years in high school, I discovered a real love for ceramics and sculpture, and I always thought, Hey, I want to. Make a career of an artist. But whenever I would talk about this with, family and teachers, everyone said, you can't be an artist. You can't make a career as an artist because you end up starving in a Garrett. I didn't know what a Garrett was. I had to look that up. I was just going to

Raymond Hatfield:

ask you the same question.

Gina Milicia:

It's a little attic, you know, and, uh, So everyone said you need to have backup, you need to have backup. So what I thought is, okay, when it came to choosing a university course, I thought, all right, what I'll do is maybe I'll become an art teacher and that way I can still do my art, but I'll have something as backup. And I even doubled up, I got even more paranoid and I'm like, oh my God, Wait a minute, why don't I do, a degree and become an art teacher and why don't I double that and I actually enrolled in an accounting degree as well. Oh no. Okay, I'd enrolled in the art degree, enrolled in the accounting degree. When I went to fill in all the paperwork for the accounting degree, I looked around and I realized that these weren't my people. So I dropped out, dropped out of the accounting degree, stayed with degree for art teaching and started majoring in sculpture and thinking that I'm, I want to be a sculptor. That's what I want to be. And, somewhere during that course, I didn't really get, the support or encouragement that I wanted. And I was really discouraged by that. I felt like, well, maybe I'm not good enough. So, uh, I looked around and I noticed that on the fourth floor, the photography students, look like they were having a good time. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to major in photography because if I ever travel, it'll be good to have that skill. I'll be able to take good travel photos. So it was based on that. It wasn't nothing else. It was just that I thought I would be able to take good travel photos. During that time, because we were studying to be teachers, we all had to go out and do professional experience in our chosen major, mine being photography. As a fluke, I got sent to go and spend eight weeks with a celebrity and fashion photographer. And I went along not even thinking, I'm like, Oh yeah, this will be fun. I'll go and do it. The day I walked into his studio, and you can imagine it was like this New York loft style studio, and the day I walk in, and there's a model on set, the lights, there's makeup artists, there's stylists, and that whole scene, when I saw it, I thought, this is the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and this light went off, and I decided then and there, this is what I want to do. I had no idea how I was going to do it, but I just knew that I loved it. Now, part of the course that we were doing, they taught us how to teach photography. So we were taught the basics. We were taught lighting with continuous lighting back then. And it's, uh, been doing it for now. So, the one good thing that our lecturers taught us was our, my lecturer was a fine art photographer and he taught us how to process film in a fine art way. So I had to. That skill. All the other skills I lacked. So when it came to, knowing how to load a medium format Hasselblad camera, which is what he was using, I had no idea. he showed me how to, fold the reflector. He showed me so many times and when he gave it back to me, I had several goes. And couldn't do it, so I just snapped it and gave it back to him. Yeah, but I couldn't do it and so I broke it, you know, and that was like my first week. And he quickly realized that we've got a dud here, we've got a dud. So what he did was like, Hey, why don't you hang around the studio and to the phones? I've got other assistance that I can take on jobs. I just don't have the confidence and you're not that useful. So that was really discouraging to me. But the thing is my father always said to me, he said, whenever you go and work for someone and you've got nothing to do, pick up a broom and sweep, make yourself useful. And I remembered that. So there I was in the studio and he would be off doing other shoots and I would be there by myself with nothing to do. And I'm like, well, have to be useful here. So I cleaned. I scrubbed. I vacuumed, I polished, bathroom, is a guy's bathroom, wasn't particularly appealing so I got the bleach out, I scrubbed the toilet, I polished it, cleaned the kitchen, everything. And I thought, that's what I did for eight weeks. The other thing I did was I did process his film for him as well. When it came time to leave, I was ready to say goodbye, I was hoping for a pass, and he said to me, I noticed what you did. I noticed what you did without asking. And he said, you're the only student that's come here and done all of that off your own bat. And, he said, I want to offer you a job. Oh, wow. Offer you a job as my assistant. And I'm like, And I was shocked and I'm like, yeah, I would love to. And he's like, I really like how you process film. And I really like how you run my studio and keep it clean. So he offered me a job and so I was an assistant and, he did train me up and I got the thing that was, most instructive for me is I spent. A couple of years watching him work, and he was a master at connecting with people, at making them feel like they're the only person in the world. so it was there, it was just the watching, that's where the learning came for me. And, from there, I started shooting models and actors headshots. And then it was like a gradual process of, I went and worked in a lab after that processing black and white film. And there was another education there because in that lab, processing film and mind you, I'll just tell you, because everyone is obsessed with, folio. Of course. All of that is important, but it's also the relationships you make are really important, and so I went for this, job interview working in a lab, and, they asked me to do a printing test, so this is back in film days, and they asked me to print, several different styles, some high contrast images, or landscape images, You know handprint it and that was the test and I thought I got the job Because I was so unreal at my printing right and it was later down the track maybe a few weeks in that I said to the guys in the dark room. I said so was my printing good enough to get me and is that why I got the job They're like no you didn't get the job because you're printing your printing was terrible. I'm like, oh I want to get the job. They're like, well, when you're in the dark room waiting for your prints to come out of the dryer, you crack so many jokes and you made us laugh that we thought, hey, she'd be fun to have around and we can train her up. So got my break in the photography industry, A, by cleaning a toilet, and B, by cracking a few jokes, and you learn the rest along the way.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's funny, because obviously, as you mentioned there in the beginning, Um, just working with, the tools that a photographer gave you and it just wasn't working out too well. Just using your own personality and your own, experiences as a human being to get where you wanna go. That's great. I'm wondering though, when you first started with that first photographer, and he handed you the camera, what, was the hardest part about photography, technically for you, for you to learn? Um, All

Gina Milicia:

of

Raymond Hatfield:

it. All of it. All of

Gina Milicia:

it. Because it's like, you know, I have no understanding of Greek, I don't have a Greek background. People may as well be speaking Greek. And I remember when the lecturer first started teaching us photography at university, he spoke in f stops and shutter speed and the exposure triangle in a, and photography was always taught in a very scientific way. Yeah. And there are students who just can't process information in that way. And that's why, when I started writing books, I'm like, I'm going to teach this in a creative way and still teach all the basics of photography. But there is a way to explain things that aren't going to bamboozle you. So, yeah. Yeah, I think all of that was the hardest part for me, understanding the formulas of photography and the relationship between, how everything worked, but watching and I learned very quickly that yes, that's important and you need to nail that. But beyond that, I think for me, 90 percent of a shoot of a successful shoot is your connection with the person that you're photographing.

Raymond Hatfield:

Now, that makes sense. I can totally relate to that. I think that there's a lot of people though who, maybe they don't work with, too many people. So before we move on, to working with people, was there any moment where you had this like, Oh, okay. I understand how this is working now. This is all starting together. Was there anything that you were taught that gave you that aha moment?

Gina Milicia:

I think for me, it was, learning the technical side, but then in the learning, having it explained to you, it's the physical act of doing it that, that everything starts to click into place. So when if you don't have an understanding of how say shutter speed works, actually going and trying to photograph a moving object and getting it to freeze. It's in the doing that you say, Oh, I see. So when I've got a slower shutter speed, everything's blurry. But if I speed up my shutter speed, I can get it sharp. So it was in the doing. That's how I started to, for me, that's how I was learning the craft of photography in the doing.

Raymond Hatfield:

That makes sense. I often tell people that it doesn't matter, how much you educate yourself, how many books you read, how many YouTube tutorials you watch, how many podcasts you listen to, if you don't actually pick up your camera afterwards, it doesn't and do something about it. It's it's kind of all all for nothing

Gina Milicia:

exactly.

Raymond Hatfield:

so In your intro I mentioned, uh that you travel around the world that you work with a lot of people And it sounds all great. It sounds wonderful. Flying, jet setting, going to all these new locations. And I've seen some of your behind the scenes videos and it just looks like, like so much fun. And it looks like you're having a great time. Are there any misconceptions that people have about being a travelling portrait photographer.

Gina Milicia:

Well I think people imagine it as being very glamorous and kind of an easy job and even my own family, still to this day, think I don't do anything. And you ask any non photographer like if you ever complained about I've had a really hard day I've been shooting all day that they look at you like what do you mean? It's like you pick up a camera you pointed at someone you take a photo. How exhausting can that be? So I I think, people don't understand the pressure involved in those sorts of shoots and, what it's like to be on a set, where you've got, so many different people calling the shots and you've got, strong personalities that you need to control. And then you've also got the lighting that you have to nail and the very short amount of time you get to do the shots in. So often when it's working with, celebrities or, high powered CEOs and things like that, it's often, they'll promise you, you've got an hour to get the shot. They always promise an hour. It's usually about, Five minutes I've had I've had 50 the shortest one. I remember was like, ended up giving me 15 minutes where there was the audience was they wouldn't let the audience bump out until I'd shot So you're shooting in front of a couple of thousand people as well getting the light and then you've got like art directors and producers and everyone is in your ear as well. So it's, I think it is very high pressure. So you have to know your stuff. There aren't any do overs, you've got to be getting it right. So I think it's the very short amount of time. And I think that's when I'm ever, doing workshops or things like that, that I explain when I'll show a photo, I'll say, I know that a lot of you will look at this image and think, well, that light could have been a bit different or I would have done it differently. Sure. If you've got three hours to do a shoot, of course, you're going to do things differently. But when it's that sort of pressure and the time very short, you've got to, deliver something. And I think that's probably the biggest misconception of this sort of work.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, for sure. I remember growing up, I don't remember what it was, but my stepfather was watching some sort of program on TV. 60 minutes or something. And they followed a photographer who was just like shooting models on the beach. And I remember afterwards. My dad was this long haul truck driver, and he, basically, what he said afterwards was essentially like, oh, this is like the easiest job in the whole world, anybody can do it. And I mean, physically, compared to a truck driver, sure, it's not as strenuous on the body, but I think mentally, being a photographer can be very taxing, and, and that's obviously why it can be such a stressful job and it can be a hard day at work when you come home and you're just like relaxed I know when I come home after a wedding, it's just like that whole next day. I just Just don't talk to me. nobody just like, we're just not gonna talk today and I'm just gonna gather my own thoughts and, recoup from everything that happened yesterday. So I totally get that. I'm right there on the same page as you.

Gina Milicia:

is physically exhausting as well. Like you see for wedding photographers or event photographers, you're on your feet all day long. And, getting up, you're squatting down, you're all over the place, you're lugging gear from location to location. It's physically and mentally exhausting.

Raymond Hatfield:

Absolutely. was lucky enough to just get a brand new, Tenba rolling suitcase gear bags at weddings. Oh man, it has just helped me out so much not having to lug everything on my shoulders and just roll it. it's so great. I can't recommend it enough. Um, I want to know though, obviously when you get booked for these big gigs and you have to go somewhere, in terms of the concept of a shoot, can you walk me through that? Like, are you typically given some sort of idea for how the shoot goes? what are the steps that you take to prepare for delivering the final image?

Gina Milicia:

So it depends on the shoot, but most of the time they'll say, okay, I'll have a person that I need to shoot and there'll be a publication that I need to shoot for. so it'll either be like, if say, if you're shooting a cover and a spread. To go for a magazine or a series of often what's happening today is you might photograph someone and they'll commission you to do a series of images that might be, sent out over a year so that the celebrity actually owns their images. And so you'll get a brief and will think about how I want to photograph that person. And so I'll do my research and you might get a storyboard from, the client who says, okay, this is the look and feel we want to go with. And this is the location that you'll be shooting at. So what I'll do is jump on something like, if I've never been to the location, say they fly you to like Hawaii and like, you know where the hotel is, I'll get on Google maps. And have a look and get on the ground level and sort of do a walk around in it ahead of time and, look for possible locations that I might be able to, shoot in. And so I've got an idea of what it's like and what I might be able to do. And then when I hit the ground, I'll do a quick recce and have a look around and, find all the locations. So I'll have some ideas in my head. I have set of kind of Go to shots that I think I might do but you I always allow for Plan b. So what happens if you do stuff enough times over and over and over again when you get to a shoot you get into a flow and It's almost like you're not even thinking. It just happens. And so I might be planning, okay, I'll use this location. This is the kind of lighting I'm going to do. And I always make sure that, I'm lighting in a way that we can move quickly and get, as many shots as possible and as many variations. And then it's a matter of, getting all the shots done. And the, most importantly while I'm shooting I'm making sure that everything's being backed up carefully and there's always I think I have it in my shoots in four locations until I get back to my office and I can back up another two more times. So backing up on the go is, crucial, as is, things like shooting tethered so I can see what I'm doing, while I'm shooting. Shooting

Raymond Hatfield:

tethered for those listening is, when you shoot the camera, there's a cord connected to a computer and it just goes to the computer so that they can see, uh, immediately. Do you travel with like an assistant or do you like hire somebody locally?

Gina Milicia:

So usually, I will hire, locally, uh, it's yeah, a lot easier. in Australia, I'll often bring my assistants, interstate. but if it's overseas, it's usually I've got assistance. That I've, I've worked with, in different countries around the world. So it's like, hopefully I can book them again. It's always nice to work with the same crew as well. Cause it's, it's not, you don't need to sort of, retrain them to your way of doing things. And it's not like, just like to having, people that I know around me. It just makes me feel, a lot more comfortable.

Raymond Hatfield:

And when they're kind of representing who you are, in your brand, it's always nice to have somebody consistent who, you know, isn't going to go rogue on you, for sure. Uh, so you mentioned that you've obviously, right now, You've worked with models, if you're being flown out to Hawaii or something, but you've also worked with very high power CEOs. What are some of the differences in working with models and those who are just not used to being in front of the camera?

Gina Milicia:

I think, with models, what I find is can make your life a lot easier because you can put them in front of the camera and they're just naturally very comfortable, they're aware of the camera, they're aware of their body shape and they'll give you the shot. but what I find with models is often they can look too modelly. And so I'm constantly trying to no, no, no, no, just uh, and I'm still micromanaging them with ceos, it depends that there's like some people you can place them in in the spot that you want them and explain how you want them to stand and what you want them to do and some people get it straight away others

Raymond Hatfield:

Just if it's a board

Gina Milicia:

Yeah, so It's then that I've got to, like, try all these different techniques to relax them and connect. So, that's probably the main difference is, how comfortable they are in front of the camera.

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure, yeah. you kind of touched on this earlier where you talked about there's no reshoots, obviously. There's no chance. There's no second chance. And when I had, Michael Jordan Smith on the podcast, Yeah. Yeah, he Parroted the exact same thing that there's no do overs, which I think is a great way to look at at a shoot But when you show up with this CEO, let's use this as the running example when you show up and they're just stiff as a board. do you do to connect with your subjects to create those more authentic portraits that they're gonna be happy with right away

Gina Milicia:

Well, there's a few different things that I do. So firstly, a person's going to feel, self conscious. And so because they're in their head, they're thinking about how they're going to be perceived in that shot. So they're going to be uncomfortable because they think I look awkward or what are people going to think of me or how am I going to look? So often I find that, people will put on, this, photo phase. And whatever someone is thinking. that's what comes through in their eyes. So my job is to get that person to get out of their thinking mind and I often say to people, I just want you to be here with me. I want you to forget about everything that's going on or what you're thinking. And I think for me, the way I shoot, and this goes back to when I was shooting with film. What we would do when we shot with film is I would take a Polaroid first, which was basically, an instant photo that we use to, work out what our lighting setting was and make sure that we, nailed the shot before we start, blowing film. And so I would make sure that I always showed my client the Polaroid. And I'm like, this is how you look. Okay, so you know that the shot's good. And so then you get them on site. You've got their confidence. So I often use the digital image to say, okay, so here's the shot. Here's what I want you to do. I will always get in and pose in the pose that I want them to do. I'll get in there myself and do it. This is how I want. This is how I want your hands. This is where your head's going to be. That's where the camera is going to be. This is where I want your eyes to look. And I get them set up and I allow them to get into that position and get comfortable. And then it's all about the banter that happens between me and the client. And, it's the chit chat. and I say that it's like a lot of photographers will get on and they think that they need to work very quickly at this point, but this is what I say, this is when you need to slow down, and this is when you need to chat and connect and, find a way to relax that person and get them out of their thinking mind. So, a lot of techniques, like I find that, Say I'm working with a CEO who's up in their head thinking constantly. I'll get them to do something like All right The most basic one that I learned and this was from the first photographer that I trained with What he used to do with people is have you noticed when you photograph someone and they're looking at the camera and they're smiling after a while that smile becomes fake and it's not connected to the eyes and the eyes kind of take on that starry sort of a look.

Raymond Hatfield:

What are we doing here? Yeah.

Gina Milicia:

Yeah. But they'll just be, they'll be smiling and staring. If you can keep someone's eyes moving, that will help, better. Keep their eyes fresh and so a simple thing to do is to just have the person You've got the head in the position that you want them and You'll get them to look at camera and then every time I take a frame i'll say just your eyes Just look away and then look back to me. Oh, okay and look away And look back to me and that is a really simple beginner technique that you can use that gives your model fresh eyes You So that you lose that starey sort of thing. The other thing you can do is, just like you keep talking through the whole shoot. What you want to look for is to make sure that the smile is real, because when someone is nervous, they'll be smiling, The smile is here, but it doesn't connect to the eye. So you want to get a genuine smile. And that's like, you need to do everything in your power as a photographer to make sure that they're smiling for real, not just the pretend smile. So what I like to do is I'll talk to them and ask them questions about their life. Like, have you got a dog? Tell me about your dog. What's your dog do? What's your dog's name? And what's your favorite thing about your dog? Or do you have like, if they've got a partner, someone they love, or they've been on a holiday somewhere, tell me about that holiday. One thing I do with actors a lot is because they're creatives, I get them to visualize a scenario. I'm like, have you ever fantasized about winning an Academy Award? Yes. Well, what would that look like? So imagine who would be on stage? Calling out your name to announce that you've won best actor or best actress Who would it be and then they'll name it what their favorite actor and i'm like And have you thought about your acceptance speech what we said? Okay, let's go through it And I actually go with them on that journey and talk them through and you can physically see their eyes light up at the thought of this and it gets them out of that because you would be surprised at how many actors are actually really nervous in front of a still camera because they need something to do that. They're trying to be moving constantly So if you give them these scenarios and this works for everyone, You've got a mom and the you know, the mom is always thinking about I hope all the kids look good So you're asking them to think of things everything you think of is reflected in the eyes And that comes through and you get that genuine smile and that that beautiful warm open friendly face

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I can tell just i'm not even an actor and i'm already thinking about my acceptance speech to the academy awards Yeah, and

Gina Milicia:

your eyes light up and you physically, watch someone, relax at that thought and I think the other thing as photographers that we can do for people that we're photographing You Is that if someone, is in front of your camera and they tell you that they're nervous, don't ever write that off as something, or don't be silly. That's ridiculous. I always say, yeah, me too. I hate being photographed. So I'm going to share something. be vulnerable with you as well. Yeah. I hate it as well. I feel really uncomfortable, you know, and then they feel like, oh, well, I'm not being silly. And then you've And you can talk about like, what is it, that you don't like about being photographed? And they might tell you a story about, well, once I was photographed and this happened, or I didn't like how my nose looked and, things like that. And you just connect on a human level and, you know, say it's okay to feel vulnerable at this point.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. You know, That's a really interesting trick and I'm gonna have to try that next time because I've always done that. I've just written it off and not in the sense of like, Oh, don't be silly, but more of the, like. Don't worry like this will be fun like just get over it type feeling But I think I think you're right letting them know that I hate being in front of the camera as well I don't think anybody's comfortable in front of the camera. Yeah but we're gonna do our best and try to have some fun today and try to find out what it is like why that they don't like to be in front of the camera because Maybe it is something simple that you can fix as a photographer by just maybe changing the direction in which you shoot. So, I love that tip. Exactly.

Gina Milicia:

Yeah, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Great. want to know, obviously, you work, mostly with models and doing portraits and headshots and stuff. Yeah. as a wedding photographer, is there anything that I can do for, working with couples? Maybe putting them in a situation that isn't, cheesy, I guess for, for lack of a better term, anything that I can do to make them feel more authentic and true to their photos.

Gina Milicia:

Yeah. I think a great thing that I've done with couples is to make them authentic. what I like to do, for the weddings that I've shot is I like to use a very long lens. And what I say to the couple is, uh, and it's obviously you have them after they're married. So it's that bit. it's an exciting time and I'll say to them, okay, guys, you're married. How exciting. This is great. What I want you to do. I'll set them up. I'll get them in a nice, cozy couple y pose and I'll say to the groom. All right. I want you to whisper something into your bride's ear. Tell her how much you love her, whatever. don't care what you say. I'm going to be way back there. So, I won't be able to hear what you're saying, but I just want you to, share this special moment and so you're right back out of their space and this is why I love shooting long for these moments and you might shoot some doors so it sort of, feels a little bit more intimate and you'll have the couple set up and he will be whispering stuff into her ear and the groom is side on the bride's front on and you focus on her expression and he's telling her beautiful things. Of course, she's going to light up and that's authentic and that's real. And so I always give them, lots of direction like that to, create those authentic moments. That's great. That's great. Give them authentic moments. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm sure right after, well, I know right after, the ceremony, it's always, there's that like adrenaline is going and then now we have to go be alone with this photographer and take photos. So sometimes that can kind of take it away and that puts the spotlight back on them and lets them have their moment back. I love that tip. I love that tip for sure. This is slightly unrelated to today's topic, but, I know that you have experience with this, which is why I wanted to ask recently, in the beginner photography podcast, Facebook group, there was a question about, from a new photographer. She's great. She loves to photograph beer. So like what she does, she goes to so many different breweries and she just like photographs beer, posted on Instagram. Well, a local brewery got wind of this, got really excited and, wants her to shoot like a mini advertising campaign for them. That's what, that's what everybody said. Like, wow, this is exactly what you wanted. You know what I mean? This is essentially everything that you're already doing, but now you're getting paid for it. But now the question is, advertising, how, I that you've worked with advertisers before. What are some of the things that go through your head when you try to determine pricing for a gig like this?

Gina Milicia:

Well advertising pricing is different to portrait pricing because you need to factor in so with portrait pricing there is a few different ways to, price for portraits. It might be that a lot of portrait photographers will have a very low sitting fee and that's the get the people in the door. And then, what you get for that sitting fee is a The sitting feet you'll get the proofs you get to see the images, but the client doesn't get anything else from that and then you bring the clients back and you show them the images and basically you're selling them each shot. So that's how portrait photographers make their money So it's in the hope that they've taken lots of shots and that the client will love them all and buy lots of different images, and I think that's probably how you price your weddings, right?

Raymond Hatfield:

No, no, no, I

Gina Milicia:

just There's a booking fee, or is it like a fixed rate when you do your wedding? It's fixed. No, no add ons? Right. Well, right. Yeah, so with portraits, it's a low seating fee, and then it's Per image after that with advertising you need to quote, it's slightly different So it's either an hourly or a half day or a daily rate And then you need to also include all the costs of creating that image. So that might be, pre production, which means that you're going out to the location to scout around, to determine how it is that you're going to do that shoot. And then you might be adding in the cost of the assistant. There might be additional lights that need to be hired for that particular shoot. So there'll be lighting hire. There might be props as well that you need to, find or hire. So there might be other. Those costs as well and the other costs will be like if there's models involved. Are you hiring the models? Then there's the actual physical files that you'll be shooting. So you'll be charging per shot For the files and then there's post production that happens and so you're taking those images and how much retouching is going to happen and then after that you need to work out the license licensing fee. So how are the images going to be used are they going to end up on billboards? Are they going to be in magazines and is that going to be a worldwide campaign or is it going to be a local campaign just in your local city? How many eyes are going to be on that campaign? So these are all factors that come into the costing in it for an advertising gig Would

Raymond Hatfield:

you recommend? Since this is her kind of first one, would you recommend cause I think that she's feeling a bit overwhelmed to charge like really low in the hopes that you use this for a learning experience? Or would you recommend like really go into the nines and doing it all proper?

Gina Milicia:

That's tough. look when you're, breaking into the industry, what you want to do is get experience as a photographer, you also want to make relationships as a photographer. Right? and so get your name out there. While I'm not of the belief that if photographers, because there are a lot of companies that are taking advantage of photographers today, where they're saying, Hey, why don't you do this shoot? We'll get you a lot more Instagram likes. Well, you can't eat off Instagram likes. Right. So I think you need to price as to your experience. So if it is like this, she's coming from a position where she's never done this before and this is her first time, you don't need to charge like a photographer that's been doing it for 10 years. Um, I'll tell you what, in my very, very early years as a photographer starting out, I was taking my portfolio to uh, television network, to see if they would give me some work. And when I was in the elevator going up. To see the publicist there, there was another photographer in the elevator and we got into a conversation and he said, like, what are you doing? And I said, I'm going to see this publicist and da da da. And it turned out that this was a photographer that was also working for them. He was already an established photographer doing work. And he said to me, do me a favour. when you price yourself, he said, make sure that you get the job on, you're based on ability, not because you're going to undercut us all. And I, I remembered that, and I went in and, when the publicist asked me what my rates were, and he gave me a rate. He said, don't go under this. And I went, okay, thanks. Thanks for the tip. And when she asked me my hourly rate, I quoted him exactly the rate that the guy had told me. And she said, that's fair enough. And so I walked out of that meeting, feeling really proud of myself that I'd scored that job based on merit, not on undercutting. The danger of coming in too cheap is you're then known as the cheap photographer, and it's very hard to go anywhere, but if you do the work and are known for your point of difference, like you might be on set and, like with this girl with the beer company, obviously they've recognized that she has, a great eye because they love what she's doing. Okay, so you've got to back yourself that that is already your point of difference and then you just outwork everyone else and make sure that when you're on set you're easy to get on with Really important really important and that you deliver the job it might be that, yes, she's going to come in a little bit lower than say at someone who's been working in advertising for 20 years, but don't sell yourself short. Don't come in too low.

Raymond Hatfield:

I love it. I think that's just solid advice kind of throughout life. Really?

Gina Milicia:

Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

When you were in the elevator and the photographer told you not to charge under this amount, was it more or less than what you had already planned on saying your day rate was going to be?

Gina Milicia:

It was a little bit more so. Oh, good. It was uncomfortable, and this is something, that we talk about a lot in my gold community, with photographers. It comes up a lot like the anxiety over pricing and charging. And, I've had photographers that I'm mentoring that I'll say, double your prices. And they'll go no one will want to book me. I'm like, yes, they will It'll weed out the ones that were only ever shopping on price, but you'll get a new, level of client that actually appreciate your work.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I think when starting out it's hard to uh, Your price with the quality clients that you're gonna get you just assume like well I'm already doing this for free I love doing it. Why would I charge for it? And now now i'm going to charge an exorbitant amount I'm still the same photographer that I was I see that it's that hard mental barrier to get over But like you said it can really I mean it can change everything change who you're working with and yeah And just let you live a lifestyle that you're happy with so who doesn't want that

Gina Milicia:

and the other thing raymond is like Yes, back yourself and remember that, that hour or two that you spend shooting is not an hour or two. It's not that it's like for you to get to that point has taken you maybe five years of research and testing and learning and that's what the client is paying for it's not an hourly rate and it's easy to confuse when you might come from A job where you've been paid for it, you know per hour and you think well like, That's a good rate at my day job, but it's not the same in a creative field It's like they're not paying you for the hour. They're paying you for all the experience that you bring to that hour. Right. It's not yet. So it's a different way of thinking.

Raymond Hatfield:

That reminded me actually of, your story about, going to Hawaii and photographing a molly, you said that, you have some like go to poses that you go into just to make sure that you get everything and that that comes with the experience, obviously, which we were just talking about right there. can you share some of those like go to must have poses that just, you Pretty much can make almost anybody look good.

Gina Milicia:

Yeah, so What I find is if you're photographing someone It doesn't matter who they are whether they're you know A model who's worked for ever in a day or it's their first photo shoot People like to feel supported of course when they're being photographed so What I do for the first shot male or female Is i'll get them to lean against a wall You And it's a simple act of getting someone to lean against the wall, they've got something, it's like they feel supported. If you, because there's nothing more uncomfortable, and to go off on a tangent here, I think that every photographer, whether you've been doing it for five minutes or five years, what you need to do is go and be photographed by another professional photographer. So that you know, What it feels like to be photographed because if you're only ever photographing people your idea of what that is like is a lot different to actually being in front of the camera and feeling how vulnerable you feel When you're in front of a camera and all of those emotions you go through, you go, I understand now. And then you have empathy for your model. And when you do, I think it makes you a better photographer. So I think that idea of giving them something to feel supported, leaning up against a wall. That is a great way to start because the mistake that a lot of new photographers make is the first thing they'll do is they'll ask someone to, okay, just stand in front of the camera. and like you're standing there on your own, people don't know what to do with their hands. They don't know what to do with their feet. They don't know where to put their head. They don't know how to look, or they'll do these, awkward poses that they've seen everyone else do. And so that simple one, lean up against a wall or sit them down in a chair is a great way, to start the shoot and then I'll, I'll flow from there. So another one that I love and it works for everyone because it's very flattering is to give them something to lean on. So it might be a bench. That they can cross their arms in front of and that lean forward. And it's just that act of leaning forward and head down. So already it's squaring up the jaw. It makes them feel confident. They feel supported. Again, they've got something to lean on. And, they can't move around as much. So for you as the photographer it makes it easier for you to focus on their eyes and things like that because they don't have too many places to go. Whereas where they're standing they can be all over the place. So they're two that are really good starting points and then from there, you can build on those. I think one thing that's also really important is to, as a photographer, if, portrait photography is something that you really want to get into, then practice posing so that you know how to do it. Because if you know how to pose and you know how to make your own body look good and pose confidently, then when you're showing your model, and I think it's really important to show your model rather than tell, Of course. And they see you in that pose looking comfortable and relaxed. That's another way you're connecting with them. It's like, look, I'm doing it. And And they go, oh, you look okay doing that. And then it's easier for them to do it as well.

Raymond Hatfield:

So when you mean practice posing, you mean practice posing yourself. Yeah. I love it. Oh, that's such a great advice. Yeah, in

Gina Milicia:

your spare time. And it's like, there's no excuses. We've all got smartphones. photograph yourself. Yeah. On that though, I also believe that, I think I see a lot of photographers that when the, say if the model is coming to a particular location and they're also lighting the shot. they're doing it with the model there. And I don't think that's a good idea. I think you should always have a stand in and a great tip that I tell all my students to do is like, you can't always have an assistant that that's an extra expense. Although if you're part of a photography group, I think a really good thing that if you've got photographers in your area, that you swap assisting gigs. So you help each other. It's like, I'll assist you on your job if you come and assist me on my job. So you can learn from each other and help each other. If you can't and you can't always have an assistant, but you need something to help you set the shot up, get yourself a styrofoam head. Like you can get them from craft shops. Yeah, okay So they're full size styrofoam heads. You can actually put that onto a light stand Okay, and i've got one his name's wayne Okay, and you you take him to the location and you set him up and you test your light. So even if you're shooting daylight, you've got an idea. Well, okay, this is where Wayne's going to be. I'm going to set him up there. I've got the light behind. That's right. And you can do a test shot. And then you go into the shoot with so much more confidence. That you know you've got the shot and you can also use this, at home if you're just practicing with different lighting. So you've got a window that you think, Oh, I wonder what the light's like here. Well, let's bring Wayne in, set him up, see how it works. And so you can practice your lighting. If you don't always have people to work with. I've got one, there's one out the back that now he's set up. Wayne, I was using him yesterday before I, cause I was practicing. Doing a new lighting style. I said, I'll just like bust out Wayne and test it out. Oh, this is so

Raymond Hatfield:

great. This is so great. Yeah. I don't know why I never thought of that. I never thought of that. But that's such a practical tip that anybody can do. Anybody can go to a craft store and pick that up. Five

Gina Milicia:

bucks. Five bucks. and the other tip that I would have is that when you do that, that they're white. I would paint it mid gray. I was just going to ask that same question.

Intro:

Yeah.

Gina Milicia:

Yeah, because obviously, no one has, like, a bright white skin tone. A bleached white, yeah. But yeah, it is. So, paint it a mid gray, and then that's a, like, an average skin tone, but it's a start, so,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah. Oh, man. I might have to stop by my local craft store after this practice that, because that is, it's just smart, just such a smart, simple tip. And it's so, like, Why didn't I think of that? That's, that's so great. But I'm sure my kids would Yeah, I don't Oh, man.

Gina Milicia:

So, I've had I'll have to come up with a name. You can get ones with hair as well. Oh, really? Like, you can get pipe ones. You can get them They're just like mannequins, styrofoam heads. But you can get next level ones where they've got hair. So some of my students have got female ones, some have got male ones, and they've all named them. It's the name that just

Raymond Hatfield:

throws me off every time and I'm not sure why, but it's, whatever works, whatever works. That's hilarious. I'm sure my wife would love me running around the house. Where's Sarah? Babe, do you know where Sarah is? Has

Gina Milicia:

anyone seen Jenny?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, exactly. Who are all these women? Why are they in this house? That's hilarious. I want to know, you've had, uh, Years of experience you've been shooting for a very long time I want to know if you've ever had an embarrassing moment on set you can share today, of course

Gina Milicia:

and i've shared this on another podcast, but i'll share it with the listeners. so all my most of my embarrassing moments happened pre Digital so during film where it was a lot harder to check And it's embarrassing, but also like just devastating that I shot a wedding. And. I had a, a Mets flash. So do you remember those? So they were like an external flash and they were like a big, big unit. Okay. And, it's film that I'm shooting and, it was a wedding and it rained. It was dark, middle of winter and, raining. So, I was shooting, uh, Phil flash. But really, there wasn't any fill light. So the flash was doing all the work. So obviously I'm not, I don't know idea if I'm getting it right. I'm just assuming the flash is going off. Okay. You gotta hope everything was working, rolls. I think 15 rolls of film, they go off. Oh, and all day, the bride groom, the family going. Oh, Gina, you're unreal. We think you're great. We can't wait to see the photos and I'm high fiving everyone and like, you know, yeah, yeah, they'll be so good. Strut out of there. It's the Monday. The films have gone in. assistant calls from the lab. Um, there's a problem. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, the films are all black. I'm like, ha ha ha ha. That's not funny. No, there's nothing on the films the Mets flash was firing, but it had blown a tube And what happens is they still admit a flash, but nowhere near powerful Nothing. So there was one frame where I took them outside, they were under an umbrella, there was enough fill light to get an image, everything else, nothing. I had to ring the bell. What did you do? Well, you, go into the fetal position in the corner and cry, right? But then the couple are like, we can't wait, they ring me and can't wait to see the photos can't wait to see the photos And I'm like guys, I'm so sorry. I didn't get anything, and this couple Beautiful come to the studio and the first thing they do is they just give me a big hug. They're consoling me. Wow Yeah Classy, hey sure. Yeah. Yeah, I was devastated. I mean I refunded their money and I don't think I did another This was maybe my first or second year as a photographer and I don't think I did shot another wedding for many many years After that

Raymond Hatfield:

it was awful that would give me a heartache for sure. Just thinking about that You can't imagine what I would do, but I guess you just have to be honest and do everything that you can.

Gina Milicia:

Yeah. So the thing about making mistakes is make them early in your career, but also from each mistake, like I will never. Assume that my gear is working Check it double check triple check all the time A lot harder to do today because you'll see the image on the back of the camera. You'll know, but back then

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, man Well, i'm glad that you made it out and that it didn't scar you enough So that you just gave up because i'm sure that thought must have been running through your head because I know that it's running through my head right now and it didn't even happen to me I want to thank you though, because we've gone way over the allotted time, and I tend to do this more often than not, but I really do appreciate everything and you coming on and sharing everything that you did today. For the listeners who are listening and have loved this interview, because I know that they did, can you let them know where they can find you online?

Gina Milicia:

So they can find me at GinaMalicia. com. So that's G I N A M I L I C I A and as you said, there's a Podcast so you want to be a photographer. So just look for that in iTunes. And yeah, I'm also on Instagram at Gina Malicia, Twitter Facebook, all those places, yeah, at Gina Militia.

Raymond Hatfield:

Perfect, perfect. Gina, is there anything that I didn't ask you today that maybe you still want to share with the listeners? That you want to make sure that they know?

Gina Milicia:

oh, I mean, look, if, if anyone's interested in, mentoring or learning about posing and lighting, they want to take that. to the next level. I have a goal community and you can have a look and check all of that out. Just go to Gina militia. com and click on join the community and you'll get all the information there.

Raymond Hatfield:

Perfect. Gina again, thank you so much for coming on. I had an absolute blast talking to you today.

Gina Milicia:

Thanks, Raymond. It was a pleasure.

Raymond Hatfield:

All right, let's take one thing that you learned from this interview with Gina and turn it into an action item. For me, I mean, it's practicing lighting with a styrofoam head, right? This is by far the most unique and totally genius tips anyone has ever shared on the podcast. So, here's what you need to do. Head to your local craft store and buy yourself a styrofoam head and some mid gray paint. Paint the head and then mount it to a light stand and then just move it around your house In pockets of light, to photograph it and see how the light falls on your subject. Then, you know, you look at your photos, you review them, and then you can use what you learned about direction of light, where it needs to be, while next time you're out working with people, like, with real, fleshy, non styrofoam heads. And it'll help, I promise. And as you progress, you'll be able to use things like off camera flash to learn how to always make your subjects look their best. Remember, this podcast is not about simply gathering as much information as possible and then doing nothing with it. This podcast is about taking action. You took the time to listen today. Take the time to do the next step to better your photography skills. It beats doom scrolling. I promise. That is it for today. Until next week. Remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.