Finding Success in Product Photography with Kelly Lawson

#537 In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Kelly Lawson, a passionate photographer who transitioned from the healthcare field to create a successful photography career. Kelly shares her journey, highlighting the allure of creativity and entrepreneurship that photography offers. She emphasizes the importance of mastering light and using minimal resources effectively to elevate your photography skills. 

THE BIG IDEAS 

• Explore Your Creative Outlet: Photography is a beautiful way to express creativity outside of your day job and discover new entrepreneurial opportunities.
• Find Joy in Small Wins: Each photographic success, no matter how small, builds confidence; cherish these moments to propel your learning.
• Appreciate the Power of Teaching: Sharing your knowledge with others is both rewarding and reinforces your own skills.
• Utilize One Light Source: Simplifying your lighting setup lets you focus on mastering the fundamentals and achieving clearer, crisper photos.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

1. Experiment with Natural Light: Observe how natural light changes throughout the day. Use large windows or open shade outdoors for consistent lighting without harsh shadows.
2. Create a Simple Background: Purchase affordable foam core or cardstock to create a seamless background that enhances your product photos. Set up a small, clean photo area in your home with these materials.
3. Focus on a Single Subject: Start with a simple object like a coffee cup and explore different angles and lighting setups. Capture it from various perspectives to understand how angles influence perception.
4. Connect with Your Target Audience: Tailor your photos to captivate your intended audience by thinking about what excites them. Brainstorm visual elements that resonate with your audience's interests.
5. Rekindle Your Passion: Regularly revisit your initial motivations for taking up photography to reignite your passion. Reflect on your journey and acknowledge your growth. 

RESOURCES:
Visit Kelly Lawson's Website - https://kellylawson.ca/
Follow Kelly Lawson on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kellyslawson/

Download your free copy of
46 Creative Photo Ideas to Get You Out of a Rut
at https://creativeimageideas.com/

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!

• Join the free Beginner Photography Podcast Community at https://beginnerphotopod.com/group
• Get your Photo Questions Answered on the show - https://beginnerphotopod.com/qa
• Grab your free camera setting cheatsheet - https://perfectcamerasettings.com/

Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Transcript

Kelly Lawson: 0:00

I went to the camera store and bought a$300 lens that was completely useless to me. When what I didn't realize is that, what I really need to do is understand light. And then I need to understand how to control it through my camera settings. So the first thing I say is like, you've got to understand light, look around you, start to look at how it behaves. And once you start to pay closer attention to light, things are going to change for you.

Raymond Hatfield: 0:23

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield. And each week I interview one of the world's most interesting photographers to learn what it really takes to capture beautiful images so that you can start to do the same. In today's rewind episode, we are chatting with product photographer, Kelly Lawson about what you need to feel confident behind the camera. But first the beginner photography podcast brought to you by CloudSpot. With CloudSpot, you can sell more photos through prints, products, and of course, digitals. You can set up a storefront in minutes and start earning more with every gallery you send. So grab your free forever account today over at deliverphotos. com and only upgrade when you are ready. You know, maybe you are like today's guest, Kelly Lawson, and you prefer learning visually. As you'll hear, learning photography was difficult for her when she was just trying to figure it out by, consuming books and videos. It wasn't until she actually started practicing, with a camera in her hand that it started to click and she started to feel more confident behind the camera. I've said this before, you don't actually start to learn photography until you understand how the technicals and the settings of your camera work together. And today, Kelly is going to help you do just that. So in this episode with Kelly Lawson, you're going to learn why gear is not the answer to becoming a better photographer, how tracking your milestones can transform the process of learning photography from a task to a journey, and why light is the superpower that you cannot learn soon enough. And as always, I would love to hear your thoughts about this episode in the amazingly supportive and free beginner photography podcast community, which you can join right now by heading over to beginnerphotopod. com forward slash group. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview. You spent seven years getting a degree in healthcare field before giving it all up and transitioning into photography. What was it specifically about photography that kind of stole your heart away?

Kelly Lawson: 2:19

That's a good question. I think about it every day, and I think it was a combination of things. So, I don't think it was any one thing in particular, but it started with my desire to be creative outside of my day job. And I just thought photography was the most sensible thing. It was useful. It was something, that would bring meaning to my life to be able to capture memories or, anything really in a beautiful way that I would treasure. So just bringing the value into my own life, but also it offered me a little window into entrepreneurship and freedom. So I think it was sort of a combination of all of those things. It started as a hobby. a desire to create beautiful imagery for myself. And then it expanded into a whole new life.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:06

I know that you have kind of several irons in the fire right now in terms of photography and also teaching and digital courses and whatnot. You mentioned there, you know, entrepreneurial ship, entrepreneurial ship. Entrepreneurship. I'm sure that's right. There you go. Entrepreneurship. was that something that you were looking for in the beginning or do you think that that aspect of it developed after you got your hands on a camera?

Kelly Lawson: 3:27

Yeah, that's an excellent question. I think that aspect of it developed after I got my hands on a camera. I think it was sort of inversely proportional to my job satisfaction. So as my day job satisfaction dropped, my interest in photography and its potential grew and then before I knew it, one thing replaced the other.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:47

So you got your camera, right? At some point, you're there, you're at your day job, and you're thinking, this just isn't doing it for me, I'm not enjoying this, and you decide to buy a camera. for whatever reason, there's a million reasons to decide to buy a camera, but now you've got this camera in your hands, and you start shooting. Did you master this thing right away, or were there some struggles? Oh,

Kelly Lawson: 4:05

heck no. There were struggles. so I bought the camera with my first or second paycheck. So I guess to give listeners a little context, I went to university to become an occupational therapist. I started working in that field. And for the first time I was getting a regular paycheck. And despite the fact that I could not afford to buy a beginner DSLR camera at that time, I decided I'll skip out on bills and groceries. This is important to me right now. So. I found a DSLR camera on eBay for 600, which is Canadian dollars. So for you guys, that's like a couple bucks and I bought the camera and it came and I was very excited. I unboxed it. I thought this is going to change my life. I'm going to take the most beautiful photos and everything screeched to a halt. I had no idea how to use it. I stuck it in auto, took a couple of photos that looked horrible, and then I stuck it on a shelf and it sat there and collected dust for some time thereafter.

Raymond Hatfield: 5:01

So what was it, obviously, you know, you decided to skip out on bills and groceries and stuff like that. That's a pretty big decision. And one that is, not very smart for many people. So obviously the desire to have this camera was there. So even before you had the camera, what was it that drove you? To photography in the first place.

Kelly Lawson: 5:20

Yeah, I think it was really just that desire to be creative and to create beautiful imagery. And I think around that time too, you know, like social platforms were on the rise. So we're starting to see more digital imagery into the mainstream at that point as well. So I thought, you know, I want to be part of this. I don't want to just take a regular photo and at that time, you know, take it to Walmart or whatever target or wherever and get these. Photos developed, like I want to understand this on a deeper level. I want to be able to create photos that look like magazine covers. It doesn't seem, like that difficult to do. Anybody can do it. I can do it. I want to figure this out. And it's kind of fun, even hearing myself say that now, because my work has been on magazine covers, since, way back then when I sort of had this vision in my head of what I would produce when I bought the camera.

Raymond Hatfield: 6:10

That is awesome. That is a good feeling. Was photography or this creative outlet for you really important in your childhood growing up? Or was there something that sparked this?

Kelly Lawson: 6:21

Yeah, I mean, like, as a child, I would probably wouldn't have even thought of it. The only, you know, I love flipping through those old photos. Photo albums, by the way. So my dad did have a DSLR camera. I'm pretty sure he just used it in auto mode. I don't think he ever really got that into it, but he loved to, have toys and things. So he would take them on family vacations and things like that. it wasn't really. necessarily a really big part of my childhood, but I think in hindsight, having the ability to cherish these images and recall these moments in time were really driven by the photos. Without the photos, I don't know that I would have those memories. they're so easily lost. And especially in today's busy world, your brain is so full of everything else. how would you remember that family vacation that you took in the old tent camper on that weekend in the fall, you know? So I think that definitely. there's like a deeper value to having photos for me that maybe I haven't quite untapped until right now, but, for the most part, even through university, I wasn't the photo taker. I had a close friend who loved to take photos. she had one of those little point and shoot digital cameras that she took with her everywhere. she would get the photos printed in triplicate and share them with us. Um, so even in those days, I was. pretty, unaware of any desire for photography. and that would have been in my early twenties, not to like age myself here, but, that would have been in my early twenties and really, it kind of felt like it was covered by someone else and I didn't need to do it. So I enjoyed having the photos. but I think at that point too, I was just really focused on school work and, trying to make sure I wasn't wasting my tuition dollars and, just that kind of thing. So it wasn't until I got into that full time job Um, that I really thought like, okay, this is something I want to try.

Raymond Hatfield: 7:58

So when you got that camera and you're like, okay, here we go. I'm going to start taking these magazine quality images. This is gonna be great. I've seen all the, photos online. Here we go. And you take those first few hundred of those first few thousand photos and they're garbage, right? Like we all start off just taking garbage. that had to have been kind of a struggle for you to kind of. Deal with as it is, I think with everybody. And so how do you think that you overcame learning the technical side of photography?

Kelly Lawson: 8:25

Yeah, so, I mean, like anybody, I'm sure, who buys a digital DSLR camera and thinks that all your problems are solved, you've got this beautiful machine now, you're just going to point it at something and click a button and, be on the next cover of GQ or whatever, um, none of that happened, and it was very discouraging, and I definitely had to, at that point, deal with the guilt of having skipped out on, groceries and bills to afford to buy this thing that wasn't working the way I imagined it would. And the way that I dealt with it was to put it back in the box and up on a shelf and let it sit there for a while and try to forget that I made that poor decision. And then I think it wasn't until I realized that You know, I just really needed an outlet. I really needed to give this another try. my job satisfaction was reducing in those years. So like I said, it seemed to be inversely proportional in that respect. So, I reached back out for it. So I bought it in 2006 and it sat there for two years collecting dust. And in 2008. And by the way, in the meantime, I bought another lens because I thought that that would solve the problem. I was like, okay, this isn't working. Like what else do I need to do? So I walked into our local camera store and I said, you know, I bought this Canon, Rebel, and it had the kit lens on it. And I was like, you know, it's just not doing what I thought it would, what should I do? And they happily sold me, I'm trying to think of what lens it would have been at. It didn't last very long anyway, but, they happily sold me, it was some type of zoom lens for three or 400. And I put that on thinking, here we go. Still no,

Raymond Hatfield: 9:57

no,

Kelly Lawson: 9:58

no scratch. Um, so it's all of that stuff sat on a shelf for two full years before I realized like, okay, there's gotta be some other way. And that's when I took, it was a night class, in 2008 to try and understand it a bit more. And in hindsight, I'm not, a great student in that context. I really kind of need to figure things out on my own, but I really just needed some confidence to know like you can figure this out. Marie Forleo says everything is figureoutable. there's nothing wrong with your brain. You're going to figure this out. I needed that confidence. And I think as soon as I turned the corner and realized like, I got this, I can figure this out. It might take me a little while. It might take me a year or two, but I just got to stick with it. And I just started to really take. Photos fiddle with the settings, take another photo, change the settings again, take another photo. and now in hindsight, when I think about it, as soon as somebody said to me, you should buy a nifty 50 lens. That changed things for me as well. As soon as I had the ability to really see the difference in the camera settings. And like the nifty 50 lens is a gift in my opinion to the photography industry because I

Raymond Hatfield: 11:08

agree it's

Kelly Lawson: 11:09

affordable and it's versatile and you can finally get to see the impact of changing your aperture setting for example and Now that I'm talking about it that actually changed things for me. I bought that nifty 50 lens at the time I think it cost a hundred and twenty Canadian dollars, which again is like a couple of bucks for you guys. No, it's the same price here. And, uh, well, it's more now. I think it's closer to 200 now. And, that really changed things. I went, wait a second. Now I can get creative. Now I can start to understand how all of these exposure aspects So I'm going to be talking about how the two aspects work together and how I can control the light a little bit more. And that's when things really changed.

Raymond Hatfield: 12:29

Can you recall maybe any photos specifically where you had some sort of like aha moment like this is all that I needed to do. And then from that point forward, things just kind of work themselves out.

Kelly Lawson: 12:39

Yeah. So when I was first getting started, I took a lot of photos of my dog. So in the early days, there's a lot of dog photos. and then I decided like, Hey, I'm going to like try this. It's a little bit differently. And I did a call out on Facebook for anybody with kids who might like to let me experiment with their children. And of course, there was lots of response for that. And I did take a photo of a little baby girl. I actually did a blog post about it because I took this photo of a little baby girl looking at it now, it's not perfect by any stretch, but it was like something that I suddenly felt excited about. It was the moment that I was like. Oh my gosh, I did that. That looks like that. And I took it. And it looks amazing. And the mother loved it. And we all loved it. And it was great. And you know, I'm happy to share that photo with you if you want to throw it in the show notes. But it really was the kind of that moment that I went like, I think I can do this. I think I got this. And again, it was using that nifty 50 lens with some open shade, natural light, and that really low aperture setting that just made everything look pretty gorgeous. And yeah, that was definitely like a pivotal moment.

Raymond Hatfield: 13:46

I can think of my same photo that, was very similar and brought out those same feelings of emotion. And I think that that's, pretty common among photographers. And as long as you get that first win, That really gives you the confidence to kind of continue on. So I'm glad that you stuck with it and that you didn't just leave the camera up there on that shelf for another year because, who knows where you'd be today. So

Kelly Lawson: 14:05

yeah, I know who does know. And it's exciting too, because I do host photography workshops and I see that moment happening with people now. Like, I don't know if it has a name or not, but it's the same thing when somebody takes a photo and you can feel them radiating with excitement because they're like, look at this one. And that's when things I think start to change. It's like that little dopamine drip that you get that's like, hang on. I want to feel that again. Like let's get this camera back out and see what we can do.

Raymond Hatfield: 14:29

Exactly, That's exactly it. so. Cool. So, obviously, you know, you started off with getting people in front of the camera, photographing them, children, maybe people. At what point did you transition into something that you work on a lot today, which is product photography?

Kelly Lawson: 14:45

Well, it was really kind of a combination of things. So, as I entered into my, photography. I also along the way decided that I wanted to dabble in retail. So I opened. Just all

Raymond Hatfield: 14:59

the

Kelly Lawson: 15:01

things I'm like, I only have this one life. I got to try every career possible out there. But, you know, just part of my love for entrepreneurship, partially born from the love for photography. For the city that I live in and wanting to contribute to its vibrancy. I opened a eco fashion boutique and, suddenly I have my own products that I'm now adding to, e commerce websites and things like that, creating an Instagram, presence for this business. And I started to look at photography a little bit differently, more from like a product photography standpoint, but also a branding standpoint. I used all of the photography knowledge that I had in my business, obviously, but it took a little bit of a different spin then. And I started to understand now differently how commercial photography works specifically. when we're selling products. And it was a bit of a different game altogether because I was paying attention to more things than camera settings and proper exposure. I was paying attention to actually targeting a specific audience with what was inside the frame and appealing to that audience. so then, yeah, I delved into the world of product photography, through that business. Fast forward a couple of years, I sold that business because I had way too much on the go. I couldn't handle all of the things. It was definitely overwhelming. But in that couple of years, other businesses that were sort of within my network were like, we need to learn product photography from you. We love the way you do it. We love seeing the traction that you're getting. Like, how do we recreate this magic for ourselves? And I was like, Hey, Hey girlfriend, like I'll show you like, just come on over to my studio. So I started like that. And then the next thing, the demand increased and I was doing eight to 10 people workshops. And that all kind of started to feel overwhelming as well. And I thought, Hey, what if I turn this into a digital product that's a little easier to deliver than the in person type of workshop. So I created, a digital, course that helps people outside of just my geographic network to create, beautiful product photos for their businesses.

Raymond Hatfield: 17:08

Obviously, shooting products, this kind of evolved naturally, it sounds. It wasn't something that you kind of sought out to do. I don't think that product photography. for many people is a hobby that they get excited for, right? Most people get into photography for, taking pictures of their kids or their dogs or, family events, things like that. Right. Landscapes. so how was that transition for you? Was this able to still kind of fulfill your creative bucket that you were looking to replace when you were at, at your previous day job?

Kelly Lawson: 17:38

Yeah, definitely. So here's the thing. I. I love teaching. My mother was a teacher for like her entire working career, and she always discouraged me from teaching. She said, your life will be run by buzzers because she's like a high school, she was a high school teacher. She said, don't do it. don't get dazzled by the summer's off. Don't let any of that fool you. It's a horrible career choice. And I, I don't agree with her for the record. These are her words, not mine. Um, but for that reason, I, I always just kind of turned my back on anything education. I thought, you know, this is just isn't going to be for me. and I love teaching. So when I started to teach this to people and see their excitement for what they were doing, and I think people do get excited by product photography because I've seen it. And I think for folks like for myself, I felt that excitement with my own business because I thought I get to create this. visual brand for my business. That's exciting. Like the marketing side of things for me, it got me very jazzed up, like understanding the customer that I'm talking to, and then understanding on a deeper level, what appeals to them in photographs was very exciting for me. And I think in today's age, like we'll say in COVID times, even. A lot of businesses needed to shift everything online. So a lot of businesses were suddenly needing to rethink how they were getting their products in front of their audiences. And it's not always viable to hire a professional photographer every time you need to do that. So there was definitely some excitement for the digital. course for product photography, even though it doesn't sound sexy or anything like that. I think people got it right away. They knew that it was something that they were going to need in their businesses. They knew it was a skill that they were going to need to have in house, especially again during COVID times. And, for the most part, product photography isn't just, Like splashing some cologne into water at a high shutter speed with great lighting anymore. It's something that most e commerce businesses need. And it's also with the kind of the rise of influencer marketing and influencers online, we're not just, you know, advertising products that we make ourselves anymore or that we're selling ourselves. Now we've got a whole host of people that need to understand how to take beautiful product photos for their affiliate marketing efforts, for example.

Raymond Hatfield: 19:58

Yeah, there's definitely a use for product photography. And I'm sorry if my question came off as if, uh, you know, to downplay the importance of product photography, because obviously it's very important, I guess, just that, early on, I'm not sure many people like go out and get excited to buy their first DSLR specifically to take pictures of, you know, maybe some handmade jewelry and stuff like that. But I definitely see, I definitely see the use for it for sure. So when it came to your store and taking photos of the products that you actually had, can you maybe just give me an example of something that, that you would have photographed?

Kelly Lawson: 20:31

Oh, gosh. So we had everything from, when we started the store, I should say, cause things evolved a little bit over the years. But my original vision was we're going to have eco conscious, like ethical fashion products. So by nature of what that is, it, tended to be like independent fashion vendors. So independent makers. So basically you could, trace back like a degree or two of separation to the person who actually made the products that I was selling. So yes, they were fat, like some of them were clothing. but then there was also apothecary. like beauty products, I guess I'll call them. and then things like, candles, um, stationary, gosh, let me think, water bottles, coffee cups, basically anything. I mean, I started by thinking about my customer. So anybody who's a marketing geek would be like, yes, of course. So basically I thought of my customer as, a 35 year old new mom, sort of middle income and what things would she get excited about if she walked into a boutique and that's what I filled it with.

Raymond Hatfield: 22:08

Okay, I could definitely see my wife getting excited about some candles and coffee cups, especially with fall here now. She loves nothing more than a nice warm coffee cup. so let's go ahead and use that as an example. If you are given a coffee cup, right? You show up to work, hey look, here's a coffee cup. And now you have to take photos of it. Where do you start? What's the first thing that you even think of before you? take your first photo.

Kelly Lawson: 22:29

Yeah. So a couple of things, and because like to geek out on marketing a little bit, the thing that I always like to say first is like, and this is in the world of commercial photography, you're taking a photo to appeal to someone else, right? Not just yourself. So the first thing that I always like to say is like, who is this photo for? What do they care about? What would appeal to them? What would grab their eye? The more that you can be inside your customer's head, the more that you're going to have all of these answers. So this kind of goes away a little bit from traditional photography in the sense that it's like, we're not necessarily focusing on a perfect exposure here. We're focusing on what the person that you want to attract with your photo cares to see. So in some cases that might mean, Maybe it's a little overexposed because she likes something that's bright and colorful, or maybe it's something that's a little underexposed or dark because that's more appealing to the person that you're trying to attract. So it sort of wipes away the traditional rules of photography in that sense. And it goes more to what does that person want to see? What would light them up? What would get them excited if they saw it? okay. That,

Raymond Hatfield: 23:37

That makes sense. I'm just trying to think of if somebody was listening, and they had a coffee cup at home that they love, and they want to take their first photo of it, what's probably the first thing that you would tell them to, obviously, I understand, you know, you got to figure out who the photo is for, but maybe from a, exposure standpoint, like as you're about to take the photo, what's that first thing that you're going to do or collect or think about and bring into the frame? what is that?

Kelly Lawson: 24:01

Yeah. So now I understand your question is definitely. I ask bad questions. I

Raymond Hatfield: 24:06

apologize. No, it's

Kelly Lawson: 24:07

all good. It's all good. I actually just made a Facebook live video about this exact thing just yesterday. So basically what I encourage beginner photographers to do if they're taking product photos is the first step is to start to try to understand light. And I always like to say like, forget about your device because I know that a lot of my students. The first thing that they'll do, so I've got retailers, let's say, for example, that are my product photography students. The first thing that they'll do is take a photo and go, ah, this looks awful. And then they go to Google and say, how do I take better product photos? And then Google does a really nice job of showing them Amazon light boxes and all these gadgets that you can buy. And I'm guilty of the same thing. I went to the camera store and bought a 300 lens that was completely useless to me. When, what I didn't realize is that, what I really need to do is understand light. And then I need to understand how to control it through my camera settings. And those two things, I ignored my students, ignore, they end up spending money unnecessarily. And so the first thing I say is like, you've got to understand, light look around, you start to look at how it behaves, hold your hand underneath, like the light in your house, your overhead light, and see what that does to your skin tones. look at the shadows, start trying to understand the light. And once. You start to pay closer attention to light, things are going to change for you. And I think that, again, is one of those, less sexy photography topics that gets overlooked really quickly in the early days because it's, it's really the most important thing. Like that's what we should be talking about all the time, in my opinion. and so from there they say, okay, great, but now what? And so I say, well, okay, to get started, let's start with natural light. That one's easy. You don't need to buy anything. It's available all around you. and it's actually my favorite light source. it's what I learned from. And it's a really beautiful light source. It's going to keep your whites true to what they are, your colors true to what they are. So let's start looking at natural light. And there's a couple of different ways to look. I mean, there's a million different ways to look at it, but just at the rudimentary level, I say, let's look at indoor natural light. let's look for your biggest window that you have in your house or in your workspace, in your retail shop, wherever it is. Ideally, if it's north facing, that's great. If not, let's Let's look for that biggest light source, and let's look at the type of lighting that's coming from there. And also, there's the option of open shade, which you can go outside and take photos next to a big building, for example. anywhere you can find a big patch of open shade, so it's not going to work if it's like high noon and the sun is directly over your head, but pay attention to where that open shade is, near you, near your workplace, because that's also going to be a really great spot to start taking product photos. and so that's where we start. And from there, I say, okay, let's try to understand what that light looks like at any given time of the day. So, let's just say you've got some natural light coming in, a nice big display window in your retail shop. Let's pay attention to what that looks like at 8 o'clock in the morning, and then every hour on the hour, from there. So that you can start to see, what that looks like, and where the shadows are falling, and when you get direct sunlight, and when you don't get direct sunlight. And, um, That's kind of step one is really just looking at the light around you and what you have available and what I always remind my students of at that time too is notice I didn't say anything about your device. I didn't, we didn't even talk about that yet, because in my opinion, you can take a really great looking photo using your smartphone. It's fine. Like, sometimes that just makes more sense for your workflow than getting out your DSLR camera and going through all of those phases. That's fine. Let's understand the light. let's just start there. So that's step one. And then step two is, okay, now we're going to position your product in a way that would appeal to your target demographic. But let's say that that's too much to consider right now. Let's position your product in a way that you know will flatter it and make it look good. So again, then a lot of times we end up, hopping over to Walmart or Target or Staples or I don't know what department stores you guys have there. We have all

Raymond Hatfield: 28:03

those.

Kelly Lawson: 28:03

You have all those. Okay, good. and to buy some, we call it Bristol board, but white cardstock or white foam core, instead of a light box, because the other thing is that one of my students who owns a shoe store, she bought a light box to take better photos. They didn't look better, like, and she wouldn't mind me saying that. I'm happy to share with you the results that she got from taking those product photos to put in your show notes as well. because she was a little bit dazzled and fooled by getting an Amazon light box that didn't work for her. And, furthermore, she had boots and things like that that didn't even fit inside of it. So, so that didn't work at all for her. So using things like foam core, it costs you about 50 cents, I think. at the department store and it works every bit as good and you can customize the size of it. You can create a sweep, which would be to take that cardstock and just secure it from one side to the other so that you don't see the seam in the background. and that's really kind of the best place to start in my opinion, I think for product photos, then you're taking a product photo using natural light that has a white background that has lots of use. Sounds boring, but. It has lots of use, like, where's that photo gonna live? Sometimes they live on line sheets for salespeople. Sometimes they're, just gonna be on your Etsy shop or on your whatever e commerce platform you use. And sometimes just having the most basic white background product photo is what you need.

Raymond Hatfield: 29:24

I'm gonna have to try that out. I don't think I've ever tried a white seamless, background. Backdrop photo for anything, but that sounds like fun. It's always I feel like that's like you said I mean, that's kind of step one. Like that's where you should start before adding in more or I don't know, props, I suppose, to really enhance the appeal of a photo. But that kind of brings me into this next question that I have, which is, you know, as a wedding photographer, I love taking pictures of people because, especially at a wedding, they're happy, this is literally like the happiest day of their life. And that emotion on their face, that's what I love. It's very easy to capture because they're going to have it naturally. So for something without any sort of expression or emotion, like a coffee cup, what do you do to deliver different sorts of looks?

Kelly Lawson: 30:06

Yeah, that's an excellent question. I'm happy that you asked it. So there's all kinds of things that you can do with camera angles. And with exposures that can still convey an emotion, or a perspective that you may not consider day to day. So, for example, if you're taking a photo of a coffee cup and you take it from a slightly lower angle than where, like, than at, I guess, I don't know if I can say eye level because it's a coffee cup. Like, where is it sitting? But if you angle Where's its eyes? Yeah, where's its eyes? But if you're angling it slightly beneath the coffee cup. it's a bit of an upward angle. Well, that communicates authority and power. And the same is true of people. So camera angles, like never underestimate the power of camera angles because they can convey all kinds of things. And I always like to tell, my portrait team, Clients things like this too, because I don't know about you, but when you're taking photos of people they have all kinds of insecurities, like let's just say as photographers, as soon as you get out the camera and you're about to take a photo of a person, they start to unload their insecurities. And so there's like a little bit of a psychological exercise I think that comes into play when you're photographing people for sure. but the first thing that they'll wanna do if they're insecure about maybe some extra skin under their chin, is to stick it. And so then I always kind of have to go through like a little bit of a chat about how the camera perceives things and basically at the most like rudimentary level I say whatever is closest to the lens is going to appear the largest. So if you're like I know people can't see me but if you're sticking your chin out. Like this to try to eliminate any extra skin that's there. Now what's the closest things at the camera? It's your chin. It's just going to look really big. And I know that that's not what you want. So the goal is always to get whatever you want to be the most prominent closest. or, you know, the, like, the most prominent closest to the lens. So if you're angling it down a little bit, it just kind of gives it that look of authority, even though it's an inanimate object. And then conversely, if you're photographing it slightly from above, that conveys like a little bit more of a submissive thing. like, I guess to give it context with a person, if you're, and, and people do this a lot. I see it all the time. I'm sure everybody does. but people love to take their selfie from slightly above and there's, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. That does a lot of good things to like even out, fine lines and wrinkles and bring extra skin back and whatever. And it also helps to spill light evenly over your face. Like it creates those beautiful catch lights in your eyes. It does all kinds of good things, but it also conveys. Submission. So if that's something, and I know like we're getting into the psychology of photos here a little bit, but just consider if that's how you're taking a photo, if that's the message that you want to convey with, The subject matter of your photo.

Raymond Hatfield: 32:46

That's something that, I was taught in film school as well. I mean, just the power of those camera angles. I'm glad that you specifically spoke to that. Especially for something, as we said, like a coffee cup. That you wouldn't normally think of these things. Who's gonna think of a coffee cup as, as an authority figure or a submissive figure? but you're 100 percent right. I know, personally, I take all of the photos of my kids at like waist level, like the camera that I have is at my waist level because I want them to look at themselves as not being less than, you know, as being an equal to people because most people take photos of their kids looking down and maybe that's where we get this idea, that, you know, something smaller than me, I can kind of control it or, you know, Take over. But like you said, I mean, that's where it really does get into the psychology of photography and maybe that's a lot for today. So, I want to move on a little bit now, I want to know what is a common sign that you see of a product photo taken by a beginner photographer versus somebody who's a little more seasoned in product photography?

Kelly Lawson: 33:43

I love that question. More than one light source. So, in my product photography course I teach, right out of the gate. And I probably should have said this when I was talking about it earlier, but start with one light source. Just start with that. And so what that means is if you're taking your photo from inside, say your living room or your workspace or your office or your retail location or whatever, that means flip off all the light switches, because otherwise you're going to be dealing with more than one light source. And that's going to create all kinds of challenges for you. often what I'll see If I'm looking at a photo that I'm like, okay, I'm sure that this photo didn't go the way the person intended it to go or I'm like, I'm just, I guess I'm projecting because I'm thinking if I took that photo, I probably would have been unhappy with X, Y, Z and usually what the X, Y, Z is, is color casting. So I'll see a lot of tungsten color casting in product photos. And I know. That the photo was taken from somewhere where the person wasn't fully in control of the light and, basically the result of a lamp or an overhead light inside your house or your workspace, will create color casting and nowadays with LED lights. There's all kinds of colors of lights on the market, and you gotta be careful because those throw color around and you may not realize it until you've got this product photo that isn't making you very happy. So, I guess that's probably the number one indicator, I would say. that someone is maybe needing a little help with their product photos. The other thing that I hear a lot from my students, the way that they'll say it is I can't get a crisp photo. I can't get a sharp, crisp, clear photo. What am I doing wrong? And so, I mean, there's any millions of things that could be going wrong, but often, it's because, you're not steadying your device. Any bit of movement, even the movement that comes from, if it's a smartphone, for example, even the movement that comes from hitting that little round circle at the bottom to take the photo can create some motion blur. so usually I'll say like, just find a way to steady, It doesn't have to be fancy. And that's like another thing, I guess, like, what's the word I'm looking for? Like a mantra that I live by. Like, it doesn't have to be fancy. You don't need a high end tripod. You can make a tripod out of Lego pieces. If you need to think about what. Right? I've seen it done. Like, it's like, why not? It's like, if you've got kids, you've got Lego, probably. So, like, uh, you know, you don't have to be spending money on things, like, that's what I like to reinforce, until you understand what you're spending money on fully, don't spend the money on it. and I guess maybe that's part of like my entrepreneurial, perspective coming in is like, if you don't need to make an expense out of something, don't. If the goal is to steady your device, think about how you can do that without buying a tripod. Be creative. It'll save you some money and it might be fun. and so maybe that's just, you know, like steadying it on a, surface. Maybe you need to get down on one knee and put your elbow on your knee to steady it. Whatever that is, figure it out. You don't need to spend money.

Raymond Hatfield: 36:49

So, spend as little money as possible, make it as easy as possible, and just use one light.

Kelly Lawson: 36:54

Yeah. Use OneLite. Study your device. Easy peasy. Okay.

Raymond Hatfield: 36:58

Okay. Going even a little bit deeper than that, obviously, which is, you know, what are some common signs of an amateur photographer. Going, I guess the other way, not deeper, but what is just some common bad information Did you hear being taught to new photographers?

Kelly Lawson: 37:13

Yeah, I also love that question. And it goes right back to the Amazon box and the gadgets. you don't need those things. You need to understand light and how to control it. It all comes back to that. Understand how to control light and understand what it looks like and look at it all around you. So if the advice is to buy something to fix the problem. I would still dig a little deeper than that personally, before I bought the thing to fix the problem because in my experience as an early photographer, buying the thing to fix the problem won't fix the problem. You first need to understand what's causing the problem. And in photography, it's almost always going to go back to your ability to understand and control light. Would you agree with that?

Raymond Hatfield: 37:54

Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. That's all that kind of photography is. So if you can get that under control, everything else is just kind of extra at that point. So that's good. Kelly, I know that we're getting to the end of our time here, and I really don't think that there's a better way to end it than that. I want to say thank you, obviously, for sharing everything that you did today. But before I let you go, can you share with the listeners, where they can find you and keep up with you online?

Kelly Lawson: 38:18

Yeah, of course. I hang out on Instagram, you can find me there at Kelly S. Lawson. I was late to the Instagram game, so I didn't actually get my name. Kelly Lawson. Got it. So Kelly S. Lawson. and I have a website, kelly lawson.ca. also I have a free product photography masterclass where where I teach the four step framework for taking a beautiful. product photo that will get your audience excited and you can find that at kellylawson. ca masterclass.

Raymond Hatfield: 38:49

All right. I want to give you one practical exercise to help you take action on what you learned today. Kelly talked a lot about the importance of light and how it's a superpower that you can't learn soon enough. So I want to give you an exercise to help you learn to see light. Grab your camera, set a timer for 15 minutes, and then grab some everyday object like a piece of fruit or favorite coffee cup, something like that. Set it up close to a window, and I want you to photograph it from the side. As in, your shoulder will be up against the wall that the window is on. And you're not photographing the object with the window behind it. We're not trying to backlight it. I want you to use that window as a side light. And then, practice with different angles of your camera. Move the object closer, further away from the window. And see how that light falls off. And see how you can change the direction of that light, and where it's coming from. And again, because this exercise is designed to help you learn to see light and changes in light, you get bonus points if you do this exercise at two different times of the day to see how the light changes when it comes through the window. Then, I want to see those photos in the Beginner Photography Podcast community, so again, if you have not joined already, just head over to beginnerphotopod. com forward slash group now. That's beginnerphotopod. com forward slash group now. That is it for today until next week. Remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.