The Beginner Photography Podcast

Balance Art and Client Needs in Photography with Sarah Wagner

• Raymond Hatfield

Share episode

#532 In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Sarah Wagner, an adept family and wedding photographer who has crafted a flourishing career through adaptability and practicality. Sarah shares her initial struggles and triumphs, emphasizing the importance of balancing artistic vision with client expectations and the critical role of understanding lighting.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Adaptability Matters: Being flexible in your style and approach helps satisfy diverse client needs and keeps your business thriving despite life changes.
  • Lighting is Key: Mastering natural light can drastically improve your image quality; understand its impact on various environments.
  • Iterative Learning: Embrace mistakes and continuous practice to refine your skills; growth often comes from trial and error.
  • Balancing Creativity and Client Needs: Harmonize your artistic vision with what clients want to ensure satisfaction and recurring business.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  1. Master Natural Light: Observe and document how light changes throughout the day in different settings. Practice shooting in varied lighting conditions, manipulating light with simple tools like a reflector.
  2. Develop Your Style: Create a mood board with elements from photos you admire. Experiment with combining these elements to develop a unique style suited to your environment.
  3. Practice Adaptability: Plan sessions that balance posed and candid shots to cater to varying client needs. Review each session's feedback to adjust your techniques accordingly.
  4. Build Client Relationships: Communicate clearly with clients about their expectations before sessions. Follow up with clients post-session, asking for honest feedback and areas for improvement.
  5. Invest in Education: Enroll in online courses that focus on both the artistic and business aspects of photography. Attend workshops or join local photography groups to continually learn and network with peers.

RESOURCES:
Visit Sarah Wagner's Website - https://chasingcreativemedia.com/
Follow Sarah Wagner on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/chasingcreativemedia/

Grab your free 52 Lightroom Presets at
http://freephotographypresets.com/

Connect with the Beginner Photography Podcast!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Sarah Wagner:

You can't just master shooting on a super clear sunny day and have it all figured out because the next time you go to shoot it's not gonna look like that. Every single time it's different and every single time your clients are gonna be in different colors so it's all gonna play differently together and you're probably gonna be at different locations each time. So knowing how to approach every single situation. I know that if I show up, I'm going to be able to work with whatever I have and whatever location I have.

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host Raymond Hadfield. And today we're chatting with family photographer, Sarah Wagner about finding and honing your own style while adapting to client needs. But first the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by CloudSpot. With CloudSpot, you can impress your clients with a beautiful gallery that is easy to view, share and download on any device. You can also control image size, add a watermark and download limits as well. So grab your free forever account today over at deliverphotos. com and only upgrade when you are ready. So today's guest, Sarah Wagner, is a family, portrait photographer and wedding photographer who has found her way from family photographer to weddings to doing both, from having a clear style to learning to be more flexible to meet client needs. I think the point here is that her journey has not been a straight path, right? Like many of us. But there's this idea when we're new to photography that you have to have it all mapped out so that you just got to follow this path. But it's, you know, journey that Sarah has been on is not something that could have been written down in a business plan when she first started. She had to learn to roll with the punches and today she has created a photography business that is now strong and resilient because of that. So today Sarah is going to teach how to be both flexible and adaptable. The importance of continual learning to open up more doors for you and how to balance art with business. And remember, you listen to the podcast to learn from the world's best photographers. Do not take that lightly. Put what you learned today into practice, take action. Otherwise you're just wasting your time. So take something that you learned from today's interview with Sarah Wagner and apply it to your own photography. Hobby or business with that. Let's go ahead and get on into this interview with Sarah Wagner

Raymond Hatfield:

So Sarah, my first question for you is, When did you know that photography was first going to play an important role in your life?

Sarah Wagner:

I think it was more so, a year or so after I graduated college. I was working at an advertising agency at that time, and while I had always loved photography, it never, ever crossed my mind that I would be a photographer, because, I mean, I think most people don't ever assume that photographers make any kind of decent living. And so, it was just not even on the table for me. It was like, I'm going into business, I'm going to make money, I'm going to be in marketing, I'm going to be a CEO, I'm going to own my own company, something, you know, I'm going to make money. and that, that and photography didn't line up. so after a couple years working at an advertising agency and realizing just how rough that life was and how much work I was going to be doing. I started to kind of think a little bit differently about my future. during this time I also went through a really difficult time with my mental health and just that all kind of accumulated from working multiple jobs because I was trying to chase the world's version of success, trying to make as much money as possible. So while I was working at that agency, it was also waiting tables at night and coaching a cross country team on the weekends. So that kind of just led me to a big place of burnout in my personal and professional life. So, I took a major step back in 2019. Towards the end of 2019. and during that time I was just kind of healing my body, healing my mind, working with a therapist, trying to get back to who I was, trying to figure out who I even was. and so during this time, I had a lot of extra time on my hands. I was still working at the agency. but I needed something to do with all the other hours. So that's when I was like, you know what, I'm really going to look into photography a little bit more. So I started playing around trying to figure out how to shoot in manual. I'd obviously been using cameras a lot through with my advertising job, but I, I didn't really know what I was doing. So I decided to, to learn that. And it was during that time that I got an ad for a face or a Facebook ad for a photography course. and I just kind of opened my eyes up to the possibilities that not only could I make a really decent living off of photography, but I can also be a teacher. And then I was like, okay, this kind of like marries, like my two passions of being a business owner, like having an impact, like doing something with my hands, but also doing a lot of business type marketing things and you also get to make a difference. So it was like, I think this is what I'm supposed to do. I just kind of like started focusing on it from there. I shifted to a different job, moved on to the corporate world thinking that would be better than the agency life. It wasn't. So that was a clear answer. Okay. I'm definitely supposed to be my own boss. I worked at that job for two years. That was when I moved down to Florida at that same time. So I was kind of building my photography side hustle for a year. and then a year after I had started it, it is, how to come to that decision of do I keep going down this path or do I prune some things so I can give these other things room to grow? and so that kind of led me to. To being a full time photographer. it was not a decision that I always knew I wanted to hit, or wasn't a thing that I always knew I wanted to do just kind of over time, a few different life circumstances led me to here.

Raymond Hatfield:

First of all, I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. And, I think a lot of listeners can relate to that because it sounds like photography for you was almost a creative release, you know, in a time where you needed, some additional space. And a lot of listeners get into photography for the same reason to have something creative that they can do some sort of outlet. But it also sounds like you kind of knew early on. You're like, wow, this is creative. This can also generate income and kind of change my life. So can you talk to me about how maybe you approached what style of photography that you wanted to pursue? Because there's a lot of them out there.

Sarah Wagner:

Yeah. And that's actually a, a dynamic question for me because the course that I had seen an ad for and that I had purchased early on was for family photography. It was a family photographer. And so, at that time I didn't want to go into weddings either. I just didn't think I liked weddings. And so, I was like, okay, I'll do families because this lady's making bank off of family photography. So I, you know, I'll do that. seemed very laid back. So I only focused on families for the entire first year in business. I only photographed a couple, like maybe one or two couples that entire year. And after I had photographed those couples, I was like, Oh wow, This was actually really fun. It was way less stressful. I'm not chasing kids around. Like, I have time to get creative because I'm able to really pose a position and be thoughtful. I'm not just trying to capture the moment. and so then I kind of realized that I actually really liked photographing couples. Then I decided, maybe I don't dislike weddings. Maybe it was just, the weddings that I was seeing. then I started kind of dabbling in weddings. And, kind of learning what types of weddings that I really like to photograph. And I realized, I don't like budget, low end weddings. I don't like when I have to be the wedding planner, the dress steamer, all the things, and the photographer. That was not fun for me. It wasn't appealing. So, Um, I had done a couple of weddings as an associate and a second shooter, that were more high end where there were planners and I was like, okay, I could do this. Like, this is fun. This is relaxed. I've got a lot more time to be creative and capture these moments and somebody else is handling all the organization and stuff. So then I kind of fell in love with couples. And so I've kind of had this like back and forth, like, I don't know what I'm really supposed to focus on, and I'm not really sure that I'm supposed to only focus on one thing. I think that is, niching down is important, and I think that's what helped me grow so quickly was because it was only focused on families, and I grew at record speed. But then I realized that I didn't really give myself a chance because I was so focused on growing so quickly. I didn't really give myself a chance to try all the things and decide. What I really, really, really loved. So, I kind of put myself in a difficult position because now I've got this amazing family photography business that is a well oiled machine. And trying to start from scratch and build a wedding business, which is a totally different animal, how you grow a wedding business versus how I grew my family business, completely different. It's all about who, you know, in the wedding industry, which means I've got to be out shaking hands, having meetings, just like setting up

Raymond Hatfield:

babies.

Sarah Wagner:

kissing babies. Like you gotta be the very charismatic person who's getting to know the planners, getting to know the venue owners, and all those things. And I have built this life. Where I don't want to have to go out and do things, and I don't have to with my current business. People come to me because I put the whole work in to build the marketing systems. So I don't have to go out and do that stuff. I get to, you know, my clients come to me, they book me. I don't really talk to them until we show up and do the shoot because I've got all the systems built out. So I've got all the information I need, and I made it easier for them, and it made it easier for me. I think what I love and what I'm going to focus on is going to kind of be a little fluid throughout my life, because as my life changes and adapts, what I want to do changes and adapts. So right now I don't have kids, so I don't feel as drawn to family sessions, although I still enjoy them. But I know that the minute I have a baby of my own, I'm going to want to be back doing family sessions. and while maybe in this current season. photographing one or two weddings a month and making what I make for a whole month in family sessions sounds really nice, but as soon as I have kids that are out in sports every weekend, I'm going to want to be with my family. So, I'm not going to go all in on either of those. And well, I guess I'm already all in on families, uh, which is totally fine, but I have kind of, gone back and forth and just tried to be flexible with where, what I need and where my life is taking me and not pinhold myself, to only do a certain thing, but I will say I obviously am primarily with families and I do enjoy families and I think I will always be a family photographer who also takes on weddings sometimes too but it's always changing, it's always dynamic because I'm always changing, I'm always dynamic.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right? Yeah. only hope to always be changing and be dynamic. It's funny because it's like most guess I wouldn't say most, but it's like a very common path, is you get into weddings strictly because of the money. It seems like such a big payday, for one day of work, quote unquote. And then as you get that all set up, then you transition into families because now all your couples who you photographed are now having families and then you kind of get into that. But you went the exact opposite. You started on the families and that definitely makes the marketing aspect much more difficult for you to get into weddings because. I mean, yeah, it's the opposite. It doesn't happen very often where, uh, you start a family and then you get married, but, sometimes it does anyway. again, I, I appreciate you sharing that. I think that's one of those things where like listeners are going to understand that, like, there's not just one path. You don't have to start here. If you want to get to there, you can kind of do whatever. But I want to go back to those earliest days as a family photographer for you. Kind of walk me through like those first sessions you have. Like, I want to know, because you got into it knowing that you wanted to get into family photography. So tell me about some of those first family photography sessions. When you look back at those images, I'm sure, as you said, you grow, you become more dynamic. So when you look back at those first images, what stands out to you as maybe an amateur mistake or something that you definitely wouldn't be doing today?

Sarah Wagner:

as far as when I see the biggest change and the biggest difference, it's just in the quality of my images, which primarily has to do with just my knowledge when it comes to shooting and dealing with every single different lighting situation. Because that is one of the most challenging things when you're first starting out, because every single time it's different. You know, you can't just master shooting on a super clear sunny day and have it all figured out because the next time you go Yeah, the next time you go to shoot. It's not gonna look like that Every single time it's different and every single time your clients are gonna be in different colors So it's all gonna play differently together and you're probably gonna be at different locations each time. So knowing how to approach every single situation And it's something that because I didn't have good education on that, I was having to learn every single session. So every single session. Okay, did this go? Well, do I feel like this went Well, I mean, you know, the clients never thought any different. They always were happy. Thank goodness. But I am a really tough critic. And so I would say, Oh, I really didn't like this session. and I'd have to ask myself, why? Why don't I like this session? Was it because of the outfits they were wearing? Or was it because it was the weather, it was just kind of gloomy, and they had weird shadows on them? Like, you know, what could I have done better so that I like this session and it, fits my version of what I want to present to my clients. and so that was one of the things that I've really noticed that like now, you know what I mean? I don't even stress. I don't even look at the weather. I know that if I show up, I'm going to be able to work with whatever I have and whatever location I have. I've got all the tools in my mental toolbox that I need to be able to achieve exactly what I want to achieve, no matter the lighting situation or the outfits that I'm presented with. And so I think that's the biggest difference that I see when I look back at my older work versus now. I'm like, I can look back and literally look at an image and say, I shouldn't have been standing here. I should have had them facing this way, or I shouldn't have shot this early. I should have waited 30 more minutes. I can look back and see those. I don't want to say mistakes because, when, you know, you don't know yet until you do it. Um, and then you do it right and then you see side by side. Oh, okay. I see what went wrong there. Or unless you have somebody who can tell you. and in this industry, it's kind of hard. You're not, you're not. it's not one of those industries where you can just, be an apprentice to someone very often. If you ever get an opportunity to do that, take it, You're usually just figuring things out on your own unless you invest in education or something that's going to teach you those things quickly. But, for me, it wasn't like that because I couldn't find that education. And I also didn't quite know what I was missing either at that point, so.

Raymond Hatfield:

So then, let me ask, cause I want to know, like, how did you figure that out? How did you make those changes so that you knew, Oh, maybe I shouldn't have shot. I should have waited 30 minutes or I should have turned them this way because, you had mentioned going through this family photography course, I'm sure that it talked a little bit about posing, maybe even time of day. And yet when you look back at your work, there's still these areas of improvement. So when you look back at those photos was this, a lack of education or was it just a lack of experience? Was it a lack of knowing what your own personal style was? What do you think it was? Where was that gap?

Sarah Wagner:

So the course was specifically on editing and it had a little, so it had a few back behind the scenes videos, which where you could kind of learn that storytelling posing style, but the rest was primarily editing. There was not much education at all on lighting, or those types of

Raymond Hatfield:

the important

Sarah Wagner:

those are, kind of the basics, right? So, and this was, you know, early 2020. Or maybe it was 2019 when I actually bought it, I don't know. When digital courses were very new, that wasn't like there was a gazillion. Like now there's a lot of courses, but back then there really wasn't. So, I didn't have that basis. So for me, it just took making mistakes and doing it over and over and over and over. And I didn't know until I did it right. And then I would say, oh, Okay, now I get why those ones didn't come out well. So it was just trial and error, trial and error, trial and error. Every single time I shot, the lighting was different. Every single time, I got a different outcome. So really just trying to hone in on what, when things were going right, what was going right. And when things were going wrong, what was going wrong. And figuring out what I could, if there was anything that I could do to fix that issue. In the next time I had that lighting situation or whatever. So it took, I would say, honestly, about a year and a half till I felt like I was confident that pretty much any situation, I would be good, natural light anyways. So, a year and a half of trial and error, doing lots and lots of shoots, to figure it all out and to feel like I had a really good grip on it.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's a really important thing is, is to know lighting, and I think that a lot of photographers overlook that in the beginning. So I guess two part question, did you overlook that? Like, how did you understand the importance of lighting? Was it again through just experience and seeing, oh, this is what good light does? or was there more that you were trying to learn?

Sarah Wagner:

I just I mean, I didn't know at first it wasn't like, you know, I was brand new new photographer. Like, I didn't realize how important light was at first. And then I think what I how I honed in on that was the missing piece was that I knew I had the storytelling posing style. I mean, box checked. I had, their outfits were good. I was making sure they were wearing good colors and everything. That box was checked. So it was like, the only other thing here that's changing every time that could be affecting the outcome of my images is the lighting. And because I live in Florida and I was primarily shooting on the beach, which is It was very difficult light for a new photographer if you're not, if you don't know how to handle it. It was, I could very clearly see when I had the light good and when I had the light bad, right? Like if you're shooting in an area where the sun is mostly blocked, like you're not going to notice that drastic of a difference between, You know, an image where the light was used well and not, but when you're shooting out on the beach, like, you know, like, the image is either completely washed out, you can't use it, right, or there's good contrast, and I had a high contrast editing style, and so I could see, like, okay, that image is not good, and what did I do here? Oh, I should have stopped here, you know, so, I think just being out in these difficult situations over and over, in, in, on the beach, which is a very challenging situation, was really how I figured out piece was and what I needed to really focus on and ask those questions on what I could have done better each time.

Raymond Hatfield:

I gotcha. I gotcha. One of the questions that I get asked, or that I hear most from all photographers, but I guess more specifically portrait photographers is like, how do I, you know, Find my style or how do I achieve this style? Maybe they're share, share a photo. did you fall into the same, trap or I guess, how did you eventually find a style that fits you as a photographer?

Sarah Wagner:

Yeah, I mean, I think we all fall into that trap. you don't really know what you want until you see it sometimes. And so it's very easy to latch on to something. and for me, I of course was shifting towards the photographer whose course I bought. And I quickly realized though that there was no way I was going to achieve that look because she was shooting in very dark, very much mountainous locations with a lot of open shade and I'm shooting on bright white beaches, you know, white sand, very, very harsh light, totally different look. And so I finally realized, okay, I need to stop trying to achieve this look. I'm not going to be able to. Because I don't have the colors in the locations that I'm shooting. It's literally impossible to achieve this same look. so then I started asking myself what do I like as far as what's available to me? So what beach sessions do I towards? Um, and so I really think that for anybody who's trying to figure out um, What their style is, they have to consider where they're shooting. And then they need to look and ask themselves, when they see an image at a similar location to what they're shooting, what do they like about it? Because sometimes it's not just The lighting or the location. Sometimes it's the colors that were in the outfits. Sometimes it's the way that they were posed or it's the emotion in the image. So asking yourself over and over again, what do I like about this image? If you're scrolling Instagram, I think like that helps you figure out what you are trying to achieve. So instead of just trying to replicate something and saving a bunch of images and trying to straight up copy them, which I see a lot with newer photographers. Ask yourself, what do you like? And then trying to create your own session, create your own style and shoot with some of those similar elements that you've pulled from so many different photographers. So, maybe I like the emotion in this photographer's work, but I really like the crispness and the contrast in this photographer's editing style. And I really, really like the colors that this photographer always has their clients in. So, pulling all of these things together to find your own voice is really what's, what's important. is the way to do it. But also remember that your voice is going to change as you change. So my style now is not as storytelling as it used to be. Well, it depends on the session, I guess I should say. As I have evolved and I've attracted a wealthier, higher end client, their desires are a little different than some of the clients that I had when I first started. So, it's something that may shift and it's up to you. I could have stuck with my storytelling style and said no, this is my style I'm not gonna shift it, But what I was finding was that I had a lot of photographers or clients who kept looking at the camera no matter how much I educated no matter how much is on my website about not looking at the camera. They wanted to look at the camera And so I was like, you know what if this is what they want Then this is what I need to give them if I want to keep working with this type of client who will pay this type of price and this is what I want to make. So I shifted my, my shooting and posing style a little bit to fit this new type of, or this type of client that I was attracting because I wanted my clients to be happy. And if that's what they wanted, then I wanted to give it to them. So, my posing style is fluid. Honestly, it depends on the client. I base it off the client. Now, overall, it's still pretty cohesive, but, I may lean in and do a little bit more looking at the camera for a certain type of client, whereas the other client, I know they want those more emotive, more storytelling images. So I'm going to shift more that way. I really feed off the energy and respond to the cues that I'm getting from them during the session. yeah. And I go from there. I don't even know what the original question was. I just totally went on a shanty in

Raymond Hatfield:

No, we were talking about finding your style and I thought that that was great. So like I, I now have more questions about this. you know, changing from a storytelling, type style to more of a camera where I mean, there's, there's many different types of portraits, but it's more like, I guess, a traditional portrait, of a family. Can you tell me a little bit more about this idea? Because there is this, balance that we have to play between fulfilling our creative vision as a photographer, as a, as a hired professional and delivering people what it is that they want, right? So finding that right person, that right photographer who can do both, they make something that they love and then can deliver something that, that we're going to love as a client as well. So can you talk to me a little bit about that? Like, how do you balance those two?

Sarah Wagner:

So I think that it's one of those things where some sessions are really going to appeal to your, your artistic side as a photographer. Mm hmm. And that sounds, I guess that could sound really bad, but, um, let me, let me explain this a little bit further. And this used to really stress me out when I was a new photographer. So this is really important. I wanted every session to fit this perfect mold when I was a new photographer. I was trying to make my brand. It was storytelling. You wear my exact colors. You pose exactly like I want you to. And I was so frustrated, and I would leave sessions really feeling like very disappointed if I had clients that didn't perfectly fit that mold, like they wanted something a little bit different because I'm like you hired me You should be wanting exactly what I'm putting out there, right? But the truth is it really doesn't work like that people don't totally understand This artistic side versus client side, you know They know what they want and they're hiring you because they think you can give it to them for me, like I said, as I kept raising my prices, I kept realizing that I was getting a little bit of a different client and there started to be this friction because I was shooting always in this storytelling style, but then they would get their gallery and they would be like, Oh, can you swap the face on this one? And I'm like, But my style isn't perfection, right? My style isn't supposed to be perfect looking at the camera. But then I could tell that they wanted that, because they're so want they want it so bad they're willing to pay me extra to swap someone's face to get that perfect shot. So then I said, okay, this is frustrating for me because it's creating more work for me. I feel like I'm not meeting their expectations because if I was, they would be getting the exact images that they wanted, and then, there was just like this disconnect. And I was like, I don't like this feeling and I want my clients to love their images. So what I started doing was, when I noticed that I had those clients that were looking at the camera a lot and not because they didn't know what to do. There's a difference between looking at the camera, like looking for direction and looking at the camera because they want to be seen. And there are certain clients who want to look at the camera and they want to be seen. They want those shots because that is the culture of what, they. Have in their mind like that is the style that they're looking for even though they love your images So sometimes people hire me because they love my colors. They love the way I use light They're not paying attention so much to how I'm posing clients So then they get out there and they're they're expecting to be looking at the camera a lot And if I don't give that to them and then they get those images and then there's that disconnect, right? So it was one of those things where I had I started noticing this happening. There was this phrase So I was like, I can keep being frustrated, I can keep giving myself more work, or I can loosen the reins and say, you know what, I'm allowed to have a storytelling style and I'm allowed to also have images where people look at the camera. And it's up to me to find the right balance of that and to, to read my clients well enough. And it's something you could even ask in your questionnaire, if you wanted a concrete answer, to make sure that I'm giving every single client exactly what they're looking for. Because I have certain clients have a lot. I photograph a lot of photographers and their families and they don't necessarily want as many of those looking at the camera shots. So those sessions, I don't approach the same way. I still do a few of those, but I'm not going to make sure that I get those shots and make sure that when I get those shots, it's perfect. It was a slow shift. And I think what really, really Cause the pivot for me is that I also do a lot of extended family sessions because I'm in Southwest Florida. A lot of people retire here. Their families come down for Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas. My two busiest weeks of the year are Thanksgiving and Easter. Um, and so. I'm getting a bunch of those big family sessions, and those sessions are not storytelling emotive sessions. They are, we want the perfect shot of everybody looking at the camera, everybody's eyes better be open, everybody needs to be smiling, everybody's hair needs to be perfect. and they're paying top dollar for that, so I get it. They want that perfection. So, I had to see, I decided to totally separate my approach to those because that was causing a lot of friction for me because I'm like, but this isn't my style, like I don't, this isn't what I do, but it's a lot of money. So do I either not take on these sessions or do I figure out a new way to approach them? So I decided to totally separate my approach. Those sessions from my intimate storytelling sessions, I approach them differently. I explain that I have a lifestyle posing style. So we're going to get the formal shot of everybody looking at the camera with every single combination. We're doing a shot with everybody looking at the camera and then we're doing something, whether you're looking at each other, whether you're walking together, we're doing something less posed. And that has been the best. Hybrid I have found is being able to have those two separated and then with my family sessions each one I'm kind of just going off the vibes. I'm getting from my clients So it's just really comes from being able to read your clients. Well comes with experience And you really have to at the end of the day you have to remove Yourself from the situation a little bit because if you are so tied to my art my art This is how it's supposed to look. This is my style. Don't hire me if you don't want my style Well, you know what? Do you want to make money or not? You know, is this your hobby or is this your business? Because if this is your hobby, then by all means, take on exactly what you want to take on, create your art, be fulfilled, let this be your creative outlet. But if you're trying to make a business and you want to make money, then you have to remove yourself a little bit from it in certain situations and with certain clients to make sure that they are getting what they want. Because at the end of the day, they're paying you. for a certain look and you need to make sure that you give them that look and that you meet the needs that they are hiring you to meet.

Raymond Hatfield:

You know, I don't think that that's talked about enough. So many people are just like, just follow your passions, just do what it is that you love, and it'll all work out. And it's still a job at times, you know? It's called work for a reason, because it's not joy. I don't, like, you know what I mean? Like, there's still plenty of things that you're, like, not always going to enjoy about it. So, not, not saying that you don't enjoy.

Sarah Wagner:

I actually have more joy doing it this way.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, really?

Sarah Wagner:

happy. I'm not frustrated. I let go. I let go of that pressure to make sure that every session is a beautiful, perfect storytelling session that's going to perform super well on Instagram and make me popular in the family photography space. Forget it. I just want to make a good living and I want to have work life balance. That's my why. If my why was I want to create amazing images that get me on the cover of magazines and get me awards and get me, at the top of everybody's inspo list, like. then I would not probably be shooting the way that I'm currently now shooting. But my why is work life balance. That's why I started the business, right? I was burnt out. I needed to be able to make a good living and not be working myself to death. I work to live, I love photography. I have a beautiful blessing that my job is great and I enjoy it. But at the end of the day, I do it so that I can have free time. I'd be with my family and chase other passions that I have. I have to look at it that way. And because I let go of that, I let go of that stress and let go of that pressure. And I'm making sure that I'm meeting the exact needs of every client. Everybody's so happy. I'm happier and I'm making more money. So it's like, you know, I think you just have to sometimes look at it from a different perspective. A business perspective and I think that is the biggest thing that is missing from the family photography space Which i'm really hoping to fulfill is that so many people are so focused on the art and they're broke And it's like look It's totally fine if you want to focus more on the art than on the business side things But at the end of the day you will not have time and freedom to create your art if you are broke you're going to have to take on stuff you don't want to shoot, right? Build a business that works well, that kind of, you know, is that hybrid. And then you have the time to go create the art that you want to create, right? So it's not even like a, either or. It's like, if you don't do this, You're not going to have the time to create the art or the time to have the free time to do whatever you want. it's a requirement. To be successful as a photographer, you have to run a business that is like a well oiled machine that brings in consistent revenue. And to do that, you have to remember that at the end of the day, this is a business.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, that's, that's a big one for sure. So let's go a little bit deeper into that, right? The, when it comes to hobbyists, when it comes to, I guess, the more artistic side, we have this idea that it's very whimsical. It's very, whatever's in front of the camera. This is what I'm going to capture. You can have ideas of what you want, but very rarely is it extremely planned out. So when it comes to the business side of things, you sell images, right? You sell, pairings of large extended families. So can we talk a little bit about maybe, poses in terms of what it is that you, quote unquote, have to get from each session and maybe what are some of the most popular that your families end up purchasing?

Sarah Wagner:

So, I mean, it varies by session, for sure, whether it's an extended family session, whether it's a super storytelling session, or it's a family that is wanting those perfect images. with my storytelling style sessions, I will notice that I do sell the full gallery more often because it is a story. They need all these little details and images to tell the full story. My other clients who are really just looking for those perfect shots, they're picking the perfect shots. That's what they want, right? They may pick a few lifestyle shots here and there, but they're picking the perfect ones, of the perfect combinations, everybody looking at the camera. and then, you know, my extended family shots, it's usually just a mix, because I do, I photograph a mix of looking at the camera and more lifestyle stuff. So they're usually picking kind of a mix of looking at the camera versus lifestyle stuff. So I always have some core poses that I like to do, whether it is a, No matter what the session is. So, whether it's very storytelling, whether it's, a little bit more lifestyle, or like my extended families, which are definitely lifestyle, with looking at the camera. I have some core poses that I always do with my families. I love movement. I love sessions with little kids because there's so much more you can do, throwing them in the air. Like I love joy. I shoot for joy. And that's where I have really shifted from that original photographer that I learned from her of images to me felt really dark and everybody describes it as a motive. and they're very, very beautiful. But I realized that especially coming out of that dark place that I had been, I wanted joy. I wanted happiness. and I didn't have like the perfect family growing up. So being able to see these perfect families, or not perfect, these happy families, just out having fun and the joy and stuff, that's what I gravitated towards. And so, you know, just like we talked about in the beginning and finding your style and your voice, I noticed in myself, like, kind of falling out of love with that style that was so dark and emotive. And I don't, I don't mean dark in terms of like, I just mean like, there's not as much smiling, you know, and that work. And it's still so beautiful and there's still a place for it. It's still important to have those photos and everybody's different. So there are a lot of people who love and really gravitate towards that. And for me, I gravitate towards more laughter, more joy, more smiling, more happiness. and so, sometimes there's a mix in my sessions and maybe there are some more motive shots, but overall, like I always gravitate towards. So, anything that gets the kids laughing, like, anytime a kid is naturally laughing, like, they are just having a great time. That's really what I aim for with my family sessions is just making sure it's an atmosphere where they can have fun. And luckily, because we're on the beach, like, most of the time kids are having fun on the beach, you know, especially by the end of the session when we're in the water, you know. So, you'll see that a lot with my work, a lot of happy, smiling, like, people. Anything with movement, anything that makes the kids laugh or smile. and I would say that's, you know, that's kind of the core of all of the, all of my sessions. You will find that consistently in any time, any session I do.

Raymond Hatfield:

It's funny. I think when a lot of new photographers think of style, it's very, I don't want to say cookie cutter, but, very, very visual, right? Like the color, the light. But sometimes your style can be. The moments that you capture, as you said, the movement, the joy, the smiles, the throwing sand, playing in the water. It's like, if that is your style that you're trying to convey, then. It doesn't just have to be, what shift do you like your greens or your oranges? Anything like that? so I appreciate you, you sharing that. So, this will be, my last question for you as we're coming, to the end of our time here. How do you then ensure that you, can capture an emotion? how do you ensure that you can convey an emotion? within an image, with people who you don't control. what do you do as a photographer to convey the emotion that you're trying to convey?

Sarah Wagner:

Well, you can't always. If I go into a session and I'm forcefully trying to get a certain emotion, and that's why I feel like sometimes. In the family photography space, there's a lot of forced emotion happening right now because people are trying to replicate what they see, other photographers do. But, if you go in and you're trying to force something, it's not going to be genuine and it may not even align with that person, right? as I say, it goes back to being able to read your clients and just feel their energy, which sounds very woo woo, but,

Raymond Hatfield:

No, I get it. I

Sarah Wagner:

you know, like, I do think that, is something that some people naturally have, you know, I would say I'm an empath. I feel other people's, energies very easily because I was not the kid who fit in. And so I felt very deeply all the emotions of being an outcast. And so I'm always aware of other people, trying to prevent other people from feeling those kinds of emotions. And so I've I've, Become someone who's very always aware of other people and how they feel. So, I take that into my sessions with me. And so, because I've spent my entire life kind of growing that muscle of being able to sense how people are feeling, it's a little bit easier for me, but I think that everybody has the ability to develop that skill of being able to read the room. some people are going to be more cuddly and more emotive and more lovey dovey, and other families are not. Other families are not like big on PDA, so you have to read their energy and some people just aren't comfortable yet. So you have to be able to read the difference between we're just not comfortable yet. We need a little time to loosen up or we need you to help tweak us a little bit. or, you know, We just aren't, that's just not us, right? So I'm very closely like watching where do they light up? Where do I feel that they are safe? They feel safe. Where do I feel, you know, I'm watching it with every pose I do, especially that first 15 minutes. especially with couples, it's less with families because families, it's more like, we're going off the kids. We're keeping the kids moving. We're keeping the kids happy. We're keeping them energized. but I think that's really how. you capture whatever that family's essence is. And I get that over and over from clients. Like, you captured it so well. This is so us. Like this, you've got their like perfect personalities. And it's because I didn't force anything. I didn't force them to pose in a certain way. I just let them be kids. I let them do what was, you know, funny to them, and if that was just picking up a big hand of shells and throwing them in the air with the biggest laugh ever, like it's perfect, you know? and that's why I really love little kids, because you do get that more genuine personality. The older the kids get, the more you have to work with them to get them to loosen up, to get them to, do something that is more natural, because older kids aren't going to pick up a handful of shells and throw them in the air, right? Like I've got to tell them exactly what they need to do, so that they can feel like they're doing something and feel relaxed, but. You know, I think that's the most important thing, is not trying to force something. Oh,

Raymond Hatfield:

want to put a stake in the ground. Like, this is my style, right? I get that. so I know that I said that that was my last question, but I got one last follow up question to that, which is, something that a lot of photographers, worry about. Like, keeps them up at night. Especially, family photographers and new, say, wedding and engagement photographers is what do you do when you show up and either dad isn't in a great mood or, the boyfriend isn't in a great mood, right? it's like typically, well, this may be a generalization, but it's like the wife, will be the one to organize the shoot. And then sometimes the dad is kind of left out of this, like, Oh, we got to show up here. We got to do this. So sometimes they're not as excited for the session as maybe the rest of the family. So do you have any tricks when you show up and you as you said you feel that energy and dad isn't super excited or super aware of what's going on how do you flip the script and get him on your side and end up having a good time?

Sarah Wagner:

that's a tough one. Um,

Raymond Hatfield:

It is yeah, that's why people are losing sleep over this yeah,

Sarah Wagner:

Because every, everybody's different. you know what I mean, like I couldn't try to joke with somebody and maybe they are not a joking person. That's just gonna make them more irritated. Um, that's not, that's not really my personality. Anyways, I typically just kind of ignore them, honestly. I don't know if that's a great strategy, but I will also just preface with, this doesn't happen a ton for me, maybe once or twice a year. And that's because a lot of my clients are families on vacation. They're coming down to the beach. They're hiring me for a photo shoot on the beach. So they're relaxed. They're not worried about a billion different stressors. They're not, like, you know what I mean? They are on vacation with their family. So they're not trying to juggle a million other things. Work and other schedules. They're there to have fun. They're there to relax. They're out on the beach, which most of them are coming from somewhere without the beach. So they're, they're genuine, like, generally pretty happy to be there. Even if they don't love photos. but, I will make sure that I mean, I'll be honest, I probably focus more on the mom and the kids in these situations. I'm like, we got dad, we got the full group shots, and then I'm like, okay, let's focus on mom. Dad, you can take a break for a second, you know, because that's probably what mom is really, really wanting anyway. She doesn't have a lot of photos with her and the kids, right? She probably has a lot of photos with dad or the kids already. So, it is what it is. Mom, the moms know.

Raymond Hatfield:

it comes down to knowing your

Sarah Wagner:

when their, husband is not being very nice or something. So, you know, they're always understanding. but yeah, honestly, I think that's just a really hard one. And then

Raymond Hatfield:

it is. It is as a,

Sarah Wagner:

there's a perfect response for that.

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah, there's definitely not a one size fits all response for sure. I know some of the things that I tried were always like, self deprecating humor, like, I hate getting my photo taken too. Like I get it, but you know, we're just going to try to get a few photos here and we're going to have a good time, try to get them to turn around. So totally understand. Sarah, we are at the end of our time here. So before I let you go. I know listeners are thinking like, wow, I love Sarah's approach. This sounds great. I want to see more of her work. Can you share with us where we can find out more about you online and what it is that you have to offer?

Sarah Wagner:

Yeah, so I'm on Instagram and Tiktok, Facebook too, but I never post on Facebook at Chasing Creative Media. And then also my website has lots of great resources. I've got a few free trainings. If you're interested in learning more about lighting, I've got a great free class for there. If you're interested in learning more about styling and how to get your clients in the right outfits, I've got a free training for that too. And that's all at ChasingCreativeMedia. com. I'm always happy to say hey, so don't ever be afraid to reach out and say hey to me on Instagram. I'm, I'm on Instagram a lot. So that's always the quickest way to reach me, if you just want to say hi.

Real quick. Before we get into the recap, I wanted to invite you to join us into the incredibly supportive private and free beginner photography podcast community. It's a great place to share your biggest takeaway from today's interview with Sarah to join, or you got to do is head over to beginner photopod. com forward slash group now, okay, let's go ahead and recap the key takeaways so that you can implement what you learned today on the podcast into your own photography. Takeaway number one, biggest one. Learn how to adapt your style to fit your clients needs. I'm not saying completely change who you are as a photographer for each client, but flexibility in your photography style is important to meet their expectations while maintaining your artistic integrity. So before every shoot, make sure that you talk to your clients before so that you can truly understand what their expectations are so that you know, if it's something that you can deliver. Takeaway number two is to prioritize lighting. Understanding and mastering different lighting conditions will really improve the quality of your photos, particularly in challenging environments like the beach. So start spending time to just understanding the direction of light. That is a great place to start. Just understand direction of light. All right. And takeaway number three is that natural interactions are always better than forced interactions. When it comes to family photography, genuine moments are the holy grail. Allowing your clients, especially children to be themselves during sessions is the best way forward. So encourage those natural interactions and candid moments during shoots by playing games, by asking questions, and you're going to start getting better reactions than if you just try to keep them stiff and rigid and post. So that is it for today. Until next time, remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.