523: Business of Photography Mega Episode: Build A Business with Confidence

In this episode of the podcast, we learn from photographers Shane Wilkie, Rachael Boer, Connor Walberg, Sandra Coan, and Brian Leahy. They share their experiences on overcoming imposter syndrome, the importance of SEO in growing your photography business, and the value of persistence and community support.

THE BIG IDEAS

• Overcoming Imposter Syndrome: Authenticity and self-belief are at the heart of successful photography. Sandra Coan and Rachael Boer emphasize the importance of confidence and the value of seeking mentorship.
• The Power of Networking: Brian Leahy's journey demonstrates that meaningful relationships with clients and vendors often matter more than technical skills. Networking can open doors to opportunities you wouldn't have otherwise.
• SEO for Photographers: Connor Walberg explains the critical role of effective SEO strategies, including the use of Google My Business and authentic content, to help your work get discovered online.
• Persistence Pays Off: Both Shane Wilkie and Sandra Coan highlight persistence as key to overcoming early struggles. Continuous learning and adapting are crucial for long-term success in the photography business.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

1. Upgrade Your Online Presence: Set up or optimize your Google My Business profile. Ensure you are using keywords and locality to improve your search rankings.
2. Build Your Network: Dedicate time each week to network with other photographers, vendors, and clients. Attend industry events or join local photography groups to expand your contacts.
3. Seek Constructive Feedback: Find a mentor or join a critique group to get valuable feedback on your work. Constructive criticism will help you grow and refine your skills.
4. Focus on Authentic Content: Create blog posts or social media content that authentically documents your experiences and learnings. Genuine storytelling resonates more with your audience.
5. Invest in Continuing Education: Take a comprehensive online course or attend a workshop to sharpen your technical skills and business acumen. Immediate skills application can rapidly improve your confidence and capabilities.

RESOURCES:
Visit Shane Wilkie's Website - https://www.shanewilkie.com/
Visit Rachael Boer's Website - http://rachaelboer.com/
Visit Connor Walberg's Website - https://connorwalberg.com/
Visit Sandra Coan's Website - https://sandracoanstudios.com/
Visit Brian Leahy's Website - https://www.brianleahyphoto.com/

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Transcript

Rachael Boer: 0:00

Marketing is a little bit like a snowball, so it can be hard at the beginning to get the momentum to get that snowball rolling down the hill, but once it starts rolling, it's picking up more snow all by itself and it's getting bigger and bigger all by itself and you don't have to exert very much force at all. A lot of the stuff that we talk about doing, whether it's sending out emails, or doing your social media, or blogging, or all of those things that we can be doing, networking, all that. It can be hard at the beginning, because you can be like, well, okay, I did it, and nothing came out of it, you know? But if you just keep pushing that snowball, maybe from as many angles as you can, It will start to pick up speed because for each client that you work with, they have a network of friends and family who are going to see those images.

Raymond Hatfield: 0:41

Hey, hey, hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host Raymond Hatfield. And today we have a another Special mega episode for you where we are tackling one of the most intimidating topics for photographers who are just starting out the business side of photography I know the idea of running a business might feel overwhelming, especially if you're just focused on, just getting properly exposed and in focus photos, but understanding how to turn your passion for photography into a profitable venture is a game changer. And trust me, it is not as complicated as it sounds when you know what to do. But first, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you as always by CloudSpot. With CloudSpot, you can simplify your business with studio management. You can organize clients, send professional contracts and automate invoice payments. With CloudSpot, keeping track of everything just got a whole lot easier. So grab your free forever account over at deliverphotos. com and only upgrade when your business is ready. So what is it that makes this a mega episode? Well, for one, it is packed full of business gold. I've compiled some of the best interviews from the past that focus specifically on how to build and grow a successful photography business, especially if you know little to nothing about business right now. So you're going to hear from photographers who have, well, they've been where you are, and they'll walk you through everything from, leveraging unpaid gigs to building a portfolio to mastering SEO and pricing yourself for profit. So by the end of this episode, it's my hope that you'll not only have a clearer understanding of how to start a photography business, but you'll feel confident in the steps that you need to take to grow it sustainably. So whether you just want to make a few extra bucks on the weekend, you know, be a weekend warrior or turn photography into a full time career, this episode is going to give you the roadmap to get there. And if you ever need help along the way, do not worry. We are here to help you in the free and amazingly supportive beginner photography podcast community. It is filled with photographers just like you who are looking to learn and ask questions. So come join us for free over at beginnerphotopod. com forward slash group now. Speaking of which, first up, we have our very own beginner photography podcast community member Shane Wilkie, who will teach you what he has learned in the past two to three years of starting his own photography business. From the value of taking unpaid gigs to learn network and grow as a Photos. Shane is also going to share how he uses visual storytelling and an influencer approach to help market local Airbnbs. So specifically how to create engaging images that allow viewers to imagine themselves in the space so that it can attract more bookings and in turn making him more money. Shane, last time you and I, spoke, you were like, doing this interview from a drum set and today it looks like you're in like a proper office or something like this is a big upgrade. So also last time we chatted it was 2021 And I recently went back and listened to the interview. I don't know if you did as well. Did you

Shane Wilkie: 3:52

I haven't heard it since then.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:54

good call good call? I think you're shooting with like a rebel t7 or something like

Shane Wilkie: 3:59

Yeah, T5.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:00

The T5, man, even older. This is great. watching you grow over the past few years has been, incredible to see. So I'm really excited to chat today more about kind of what you've been up to. So I guess first question, are you still shooting with a T5?

Shane Wilkie: 4:15

I am not. I've since

Raymond Hatfield: 4:17

No? What happened?

Shane Wilkie: 4:18

Ah, well, I, put aside some money with all the shoots I was doing with that Rebel T5 and, eventually upgraded to a Canon R6.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:27

My gosh, that's a massive upgrade to go from, such an entry level camera one, you jumped right into that, I guess we're not even like really into it yet, but like, was that a big transition for you or, or did that come pretty natural for you?

Shane Wilkie: 4:39

It honestly came really natural for me. the big reason for the upgrade, I mean, aside from the crop sensor versus full frame. Kind of, I just wanted that full frame look, but I have really bad eyes. You might notice me squint a lot through this, but yeah, so I was having a lot of trouble with the viewfinder in the rebel and just going to the EVF really made it a lot easier for me. And I mean, that autofocus system kind of speaks for itself. The newer Canon cameras.

Raymond Hatfield: 5:10

Yeah. This is something that I hope, maybe people who are still maybe shooting with the entry level camera. Did you notice that the quality of your images? Got better, or was it just simply the quality of the camera? what was more noticeable for you when you upgraded?

Shane Wilkie: 5:25

I honestly feel like the quality of the camera. it was an easier tool to use. I think I had learned a lot about the camera I was using. So there was still things like, I noticed that it's full frame. I, I definitely noticed I didn't have as much reach. You know, that, the 1. 6 crop. So

Raymond Hatfield: 5:43

ha ha ha.

Shane Wilkie: 5:44

yeah, my lenses weren't as long. honestly, yeah, just the, camera itself. It felt nicer, like, you used Canon for a bit, right?

Raymond Hatfield: 5:52

yeah.

Shane Wilkie: 5:52

Did you use the mirrorless ones or were you,

Raymond Hatfield: 5:55

No, I switched, away from the Canon 5D Mark III when I switched to Fuji. So, still a DSLR.

Shane Wilkie: 6:01

oh, okay, yeah, yeah, I was, the reason I ask is I find that they're really light, the Canon mirrorless. They're just a joy to, joy to use.

Raymond Hatfield: 6:10

That's funny, that's exactly how I describe using my Fuji cameras. It really is, personal preference, obviously. it's good to hear that it has been an easy transition for you. So, again, last time we spoke, you had talked about staying T5 for a while because you wanted to start, you wanted to earn whatever your next camera was going to be. You wanted to earn it through your photography. you obviously upgraded. tell me how you earned it through your photography. What have you been shooting since then?

Shane Wilkie: 6:36

it was a lot of the same stuff, honestly. I branched out a little bit, but at the time I was doing, I think, mostly just events. The odd little couple's family shoot then. I think in the last time we spoke on the podcast, I think I was really aspiring to do some wedding photographer thing or portraits. I don't even really know where my mindset was. I don't think I knew as much about myself then and how I work as a photographer. And like, you learn your strengths and your weaknesses over time. So yeah, I guess I was doing a bit of everything then. And then, get the R6, mostly events. And now I've kind of branched a little further out into photojournalism and then doing some commercial work for like Airbnb's in the area and restaurants and other local businesses.

Raymond Hatfield: 7:27

So, just obviously following you for the past few years. and seeing your growth. That was one of the big things that, I've noticed a lot. Is, one, Your commercial work, I could point it out, like just when looking at your images, and I'm just gonna let you describe it. Tell me about, because I guess when I first started seeing it, it was you and your wife going to like Airbnbs and stuff. tell me, I guess, are you working for Airbnb, or like, what is this setup, what is this, system that you got going on working with Airbnbs?

Shane Wilkie: 7:56

So I don't work with Airbnb themselves. It's just with the individual, operators, like tourism operators here, the hosts, I guess they're called super hosts.

Raymond Hatfield: 8:07

yeah, yeah.

Shane Wilkie: 8:07

Um,

Raymond Hatfield: 8:08

are the people who own the homes?

Shane Wilkie: 8:10

Yeah, these are the people who own the properties and it started out as I was doing a lot of it like portfolio building so it was a trade of services for accommodations Yeah, I was just reached out to some of them explained that Hey, I really want to do this Here's some work I've done and you know for as many yeses as I got there was a lot more no's and you just roll with it and Then I just started doing it a little more and other hosts started noticing and reaching out to me and that's when it started to transition into paid work and I really took the approach of I don't want to say this in like a negative way because I definitely don't look down on influencers But I took the influencer approach to it where I was in a lot of the photos And that was, different, Yeah you were shooting

Raymond Hatfield: 9:01

a lot of, like, just landscapes and stuff at that point, right?

Shane Wilkie: 9:04

Yeah. you're essentially just setting up a landscape shot and you're getting in it, or setting up a shot where you want to show a nice breakfast, so you're it look like you're just enjoying yourself. Well, I mean, we laugh, we have so much fun doing this, we laugh at ourselves. It's hard to take your own photo in that context.

Raymond Hatfield: 9:25

You mean just simply from, a technical perspective? Or something

Shane Wilkie: 9:27

Yeah, like, well you know what, from a technical perspective it was like, a little bit to figure out at first. okay, do I want to use the app on my phone and control the camera that way? Or do I want it to fire a photo every couple seconds? So it was a little bit of a, how do I do this technically and then how do we make the best photo possible? Which like, We kind of figured out early on was just like have as much fun as possible. And like the good photos, they tend to come.

Raymond Hatfield: 9:58

So what did you do? Did you decide to, did you just use your phone to snap the photos? Or did you use the, I guess was that the intervalometer? Is that

Shane Wilkie: 10:04

Yeah. That's what I was using. That's what ultimately worked better because then you're not three to one pose. It's, we could sit, have a conversation and kind of forget that the camera was across the room, just clicking away.

Raymond Hatfield: 10:17

Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a good idea. That's a good idea because I feel like, it's funny whenever I look at, like commercial work, whenever I look through a magazine and I see people like laughing and sometimes there's this tendency to like go overboard, maybe it's that the models feel like they have to earn their money or, the photo editor is like, we have to choose something that really says, You're having a blast, like this is the best moment of your life. But like, with your photos, I never feel that way. I look at them, and they feel very natural. But there's also still this really clean, polished look to them. that feels, well, professional. professional and natural. Like, it's a good blend of the two. I'm glad that you shared how you got that with the intervalometer. That's a good trick right there. tell me how you would set up some of these photos. let's take this breakfast example. let's run a little bit with this. how would you set up a good breakfast shot? And I guess, two. why did you need that for the Airbnb when the people weren't, maybe the next guess wouldn't necessarily make that same breakfast, I would think, look at the views, look at the house itself. Look at the amenities. But you're focusing on breakfast, so tell me why you did that as well.

Shane Wilkie: 11:20

Yeah. Yeah. So the idea that I kind of go with there is that I mean, really the host could come in with their cell phone and shoot a pretty decent photo of just the property, the rooms, the kitchen, like in this case of being breakfast. what I've always tried to do with the images is to make images where the viewer would kind of see themselves in the image. You can picture yourself there having breakfast. And maybe if you're there, you might want a fancy breakfast because you're at a fancy place. It's almost like that weird marketing psychology. And that you always want to make it look bright and happy. And that's like kind of where you mentioned the really clean look. So yeah, just that thought of, well, you could have breakfast here and enjoy yourself like this, you know? and I definitely take that

Raymond Hatfield: 13:41

mean, when I look at it. I think, I want to have that much fun. Like, this looks like a blast. This is great. but I also think about like some of your, earlier photos, cause again, in the last time we spoke, you told me your entrance into all of this was through video, through skateboard

Shane Wilkie: 13:57

It was

Raymond Hatfield: 13:57

into skateboard photos. And, when I think of, skateboarding photos. There's like this grittiness, like do whatever it takes to get the shot type feel to the images, whether it's high ISO, whether it's low light, whether it's, slow shutter speed, whatever it is. And then guess the word polished isn't what I would necessarily use to describe the world of skateboarding images, but that's kind of where you're at now. so was that a by product of. seeing where you wanted to go? Or was this more of the style that was within you? Does that question make

Shane Wilkie: 14:34

no, you know what it does because it's something that like i've been really kind of seeing in my work lately And like i've started to really accept and then take that and run with it is that I think it was just always inside me from the years of Like film and skateboarding watching skateboard videos just consuming that much content because i've been really seeing lately How it's influenced how I see the world how I shoot and that like one little example I get low no matter what and I shoot up I caught myself at a wedding last weekend. I just was shooting up doing a lot of the shots thinking like oh, no No, this isn't really what's working right now But it's just the go to And the go to is to lay down on the ground or squat on the ground where it's like Skateboarding you always want to look up at the skater

Raymond Hatfield: 15:22

Yeah.

Shane Wilkie: 15:23

And whatnot.

Raymond Hatfield: 15:24

them look much higher in the air.

Shane Wilkie: 15:25

exactly. Yeah. And you know what though? It's been really fun to shoot certain things like sports and even pro wrestling to take that experience from skateboarding. And you're kind of looking at it a little bit different than maybe someone who just only looked at sports photography, if they only shot soccer or hockey, baseball, et cetera.

Raymond Hatfield: 15:45

Yeah. Yeah. okay. let's kind of go in that direction because, as you just mentioned, you're also shooting hockey. You're also shooting pro wrestling. you got some new projects coming up. you also just mentioned that you were at a wedding. So give me like this 50, 000 foot or 30, 000 foot overview of what is Shane Wilkie shooting together? Right. what are all the things that you're currently shooting right now? Cause it's a lot.

Shane Wilkie: 16:08

You know what? it's hard to keep track of commercially. I re like, I said, I'm really like trying to narrow it into photojournalism, events, that sort of thing. But, I mean, I'm still like, I do a wedding, but I don't necessarily advertise wedding photography. sports is kind of new. But that kind of came through photojournalism. My first gig, for the Canadian press was to cover a university basketball championship. there's kind of a bit of everything going on, prod,

Raymond Hatfield: 16:38

it fun,

Shane Wilkie: 16:38

yeah, but with the projects, it's something completely different because I knew I needed something for myself and I like film was that it still is, but I would just post my shots. At will, whereas now I'm been working towards something all year pretty much that I'm going to release in December so between that and the commercial work, it's been really uh, draining, but very uh, Rewarding like it's kind of not like I don't want it to sound like I dislike it. It's a labor of love for sure

Raymond Hatfield: 17:11

of course, I feel like there's 19 different directions that we can go in. but first, let's start where kinda, you went right there, which was talking about, doing some photojournalism work. how did this come about? where was this on the timeline of you getting into, shooting Airbnbs as well? Or was this? Sometime around there. I kind of want to build like a progression of how you got to where you are today

Shane Wilkie: 17:33

Yeah, so I guess if we pull back just a little bit before that You To like getting the Canon R6. I got that it was like December one year. And then that next year I barely did any paid work. More honestly, my first year I did more than my second year because I just took that year and really just focused on the photography itself, but I still was doing events and coincidentally, it was the university here, Cape Breton university that was consistently hiring me at events, always sports. And I wouldn't shoot the game, they would hire me to shoot everything around the game. But I started to be around, like, a lot of sports and, like, kind of, I don't want to say got known as, someone who shot sports, but, it kind of went that way. And then, because of that, that's where the photojournalism came up. Canadian press needed someone for a U sports basketball championship. So I took that opportunity there, and that would have been, Maybe a little bit before the Airbnb stuff, kind of right around when it was just starting to be an idea.

Raymond Hatfield: 18:36

Why do you think that the university wanted you to shoot all the stuff around? Sports and not necessarily the action itself

Shane Wilkie: 18:44

So the idea there was because they have a team photographer for the various, varsity teams. But it's kind of what we talked about, with the Airbnb photography is that it's photography for marketing purposes, where the goal for me was to get. people wearing the colors of the university as well as enjoying themselves at the event. So then you're looking for moments and you're almost exclusively at that point, at that point, I was exclusively looking for photos of people smiling wearing orange. And then it just like something clicked of like, okay, if the photo doesn't have someone's face smiling, Telling a story. It's not really what I'm looking for. And those photos I was getting, the school started, they were really happy with them because it was just shots of people enjoying themselves. I think I just had this knack for being able to walk around a crowd and just observe and just see moments or you know, hear a conversation and know what's a little loud so all those people might, they might laugh. Anything, they might smile. And it really snowballed from there. But yeah, that was essentially it, was to have photos of the game experience to make that appeal to fans that might want to come.

Raymond Hatfield: 19:58

Yeah, I see. so before we move on, I want to stick with this for just a moment because, I want to know, were you nervous before you showed up to something like this? Because I think any, photographer who's never taken a camera into a crowd to photograph people, the idea is terrifying. And you think that everybody's going to get mad at you and say, why are you taking a photo of me? And get like argumentative. Were you worried about that? And did any of that happen?

Shane Wilkie: 20:24

I don't think I was like scared beyond belief, but I was a little bit unnerved by it. And it went really well that first time in those first few times. And I've been admittedly pretty lucky as far as interactions with people not wanting their photo taken, or just awkward interactions in general. You know, we all have a couple of them.

Raymond Hatfield: 20:47

Of course.

Shane Wilkie: 20:48

yeah, pretty lucky with it. But I wasn't that scared. And I'll tell you, it hits me on the ones when I'm least expecting it.

Raymond Hatfield: 20:56

What do you

Shane Wilkie: 20:57

Like if it's maybe an event kind of like the CBU one shooting crowd stuff every now and then it's one where it's like Oh, I've done this exact a room this exact type of event so many times, but for whatever reason today I'm my nerves are up and it's just kind of sometimes it happens. Sometimes it doesn't I'm sure you might have felt that with weddings sometimes. Like sometimes you might roll up with a little more confidence than others. did you ever find that?

Raymond Hatfield: 21:24

no, I was always on my game, ready to go, perfect gentleman, tons of confidence, every single time. No, of course I did, yeah, no, it was difficult, yeah. No, it sucks, especially cause some weddings you'd go to, this is what I would find. The bigger the wedding, I would get more self conscious, and I think that it was because, nine times out of ten, I would just shoot by myself. So it's like with a smaller wedding, Mm hmm. Everybody knew that I was a photographer. Everybody knows that there's typically a photographer at a wedding. and like in their brain it matched, but at these larger weddings, where I wasn't as visible throughout the entire day, maybe I was over here with a couple while people were over there when I would go to take photos, I wouldn't have this. Instant bond with people just because we were in the same place at the same time at the same event, if that makes sense. So, yeah, I totally get that. So does that mean that you'd walk around with like a jersey or like a media pass or how would you start to build that

Shane Wilkie: 22:18

no, you're exactly right. every time I had one of those university events, they had free shirts. I just grabbed a shirt and I would just accumulate CBU shirts. And what I learned was how to like how to blend into a crowd is to wear the dress like The people. And I mean, having a media credential helps so much. It's something that certain types of events now, I, I either request it or I just bring my own, like,

Raymond Hatfield: 22:44

You mean like from another

Shane Wilkie: 22:45

no, no, I

Raymond Hatfield: 22:46

just, that says

Shane Wilkie: 22:47

it's just a blank one. I'll just put business cards in

Raymond Hatfield: 22:50

Uh

Shane Wilkie: 22:51

anything for that little, like we talked about, like that confidence, I guess, because, I would rather have it than not, if it's just going to mean that I feel like I'm on my game,

Raymond Hatfield: 23:02

right. Yeah, and a random creepy dude with a camera probably isn't gonna have a media pass badge with that with information inside. So yeah, that's. a that is a great tip right there I don't know if I ever would have thought

Shane Wilkie: 23:14

you know what, too, just to go off on that with the random creepy doo with the camera thing, that's a good point because, it's kind of one of those things where, like, if you're a little nervous, but you're standing back with a telephoto lens really far away, that looks creepy. But if you walk point blank with 35mm, 50mm, and you get right in someone's face, they know you took that photo. you had the courage to go up and take the photo. You're probably there to as the photographer because it's an event. And then it's funny because over time with that confidence, doing that at events, it's kind of like gave me more confidence. The odd time. If I'm out in public, I wanna photograph in the street. If I just want to take a photo, I'm a little used to it now.

Raymond Hatfield: 23:59

Yeah. You know what's funny, kind of a side story here, I just went up to Milwaukee to watch a Brewers Dodgers game with Jim in the group, and we were doing like this little photo walk beforehand, right? I'm working on this project. It's nothing official yet, but it's Dodger fans at other stadiums, right? So what I'm looking for is Dodger fans with whatever the home team, so, somebody wearing a Dodgers jersey, and then in this case, somebody wearing a Brewers jersey as well. And there was this couple, and they were a good looking couple. The guy had a, on a Dodgers jersey, which I'm pretty sure that he just like, I don't think that he was really a fan, but he just like had all the stuff. And then, his girlfriend had, On all the brewers stuff. And I was like, this is great. They're a young couple. I'm going to ask to take their photo. So I said, Hey, can I take your photo? Like you guys look great together. And obviously like the two teams and they're like, yeah, of course. But what I forgot to mention here is that I was just taking all these photos with just my phone. So at this moment, I was just so used to like being in that mode of asking people to take their photo and then using say my Fuji camera, like a proper camera, that I didn't even think that it would be weird if I just pulled up my phone to take a photo of these two random people. And they looked at me almost immediately like, wait, what is going on here? And then I took the photo, and I left, and I thought, wow, that was, uh, super weird. Uh, but that just speaks to your point that, the more that you do it, the more you get comfortable with it. And, I do think that you're onto something where, like, the confidence of just going up and being like, Hey, this is what I'm doing. Can I take your photo? it does say something, and I don't know if you found this. Do people get less argumentative? The closer you are to them taking their photo, the more obvious that you are taking their photo, do they become less weird about you taking the photo. Does that make sense?

Shane Wilkie: 25:43

Yeah, I find if I'm closer, it's generally, it goes over better.

Raymond Hatfield: 25:47

That's weird,

Shane Wilkie: 25:48

yeah, and you would think it's the opposite, but almost depends on if they see me as I'm about to take the photo or if I just took the photo. do they see me when the camera's coming up to the face or down from the face? That kind of will be the telltale if it's going to be, hey, you just took my photo,

Raymond Hatfield: 26:06

yay! We just got a

Shane Wilkie: 26:07

yeah,

Raymond Hatfield: 26:08

Yay! Yeah.

Shane Wilkie: 26:09

but you know what? It either, in that case it goes one of two ways. They either just look at you and smile because they want, yeah, you're gonna take my photo. Or they give you that, what the heck is this person doing? Look.

Raymond Hatfield: 26:22

Yeah, and then you just probably just end up deleting those photos anyway, so. let's move on from there, right? So you were doing the sports. and then what came next in your progression? Because I also know, we want to talk about curling a little bit. is that kind of the next progression or was that later on?

Shane Wilkie: 26:36

so, curling came from a bit of sports and, other, like, commercial experience. the World Women's Curling Championships came here this March past. And, Curling Canada had been looking for photographers for it, so myself and a couple other local photographers were all, picked by them to come and shoot the event.

Raymond Hatfield: 26:58

real quick? I gotta know in Canada, is this like a big sport? Is curling like a big sport? Cause in the Olympics, it always looks like a major sport, but is it like in real life? Is this like a big sport in Canada?

Shane Wilkie: 27:09

I'll start by saying this was the first time I've attended a curling game or you know what I mean? So but it I don't want to say it's not big because I don't want to like throw shade at curlers or like

Raymond Hatfield: 27:21

No, no, no, of course, I just didn't know if you and your buddies would all get together and like, Hey, let's go watch curling like maybe we do for football or baseball here in America, or even

Shane Wilkie: 27:30

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's no no

Raymond Hatfield: 27:32

clearly okay, it's no hockey. Okay, that's all that I needed to know. Yeah, not that there's no validity in it, that's not what I was getting at, but, I gotcha. Okay, so curling, go on.

Shane Wilkie: 27:40

I guess I had a bit of hockey experience like shooting hockey too like just not just doing university sports sideline stuff. I eventually got a bit of, experience shooting like in game stuff. And then, yeah, like I said, because of that and the commercial experience, I was reached out to about the World Curling Championships here. And really they wanted us to shoot everything around it. Kind of like I mentioned, like the action around the games, the crowd experience. for marketing purposes for future events. And

Raymond Hatfield: 28:16

is like right up your alley.

Shane Wilkie: 28:17

exactly. But at the end of the day too, I knew how big of an opportunity this was. And I'm going to preface this by saying I was a volunteer photographer for it. I did not get paid a dime for it. So I knew that. I wanted to get as much out of it as I could because I won't, I might not get that chance, even if it's, not paid, like the ego got put completely aside for it, and it was how can I learn, how can I be better? And so, what I would do for that, once I got there, and having never shot curling, is okay, Get there, go a little early, stay a little late, just so you can get all the shots you need. But then watch the game closely. I mean, I kind of knew how the rules and how it worked, but mainly it was watch the other photographers. You know, world curling photographers, the other curling Canada, photographers, then the ones from like the wire services, watch how they dress, how they move, where they go, how they shoot, when they shoot. and I really like all week went every single day. and was paying really close attention to the other photographers and how could I do that? So then midweek I made this pitch to my contact. They're like, Hey, I've been here every day. this seems to be going really good. What do you think? I get out on the ice for half the game later tonight for the Canada game. I'd love to get one shot. And I was like, shocked. They were like, yeah, no problem. And then, so I got to go out for, through the rest of the event that week. I had to still fulfill my commitments of shooting around the rink. But then, yeah, I was getting out to shoot during a live TSM broadcast. Which like, yeah, that was, that was cool. And then like, you know, you get off the ice and then you're getting all the messages from, it's the photos of you from like people around the building. So yeah, like, It was a lot of progression through that week, and I'm sorry if I strayed away from your question with

Raymond Hatfield: 30:17

Not at all. In fact, this is great. The idea of taking a gig for free, but then using it, to better yourself, learn from others, see how this is done professionally, network, and then even ask, for more opportunity for you to grow your portfolio is phenomenal. And that's something that I don't think that enough people, do. So I think that you sharing this is extremely helpful. And I don't even remember exactly what my question was, but like, whatever it was, whatever you shared was much better than that for sure.

Shane Wilkie: 30:48

happy to talk about it, because I think that that's one thing that, for me, I didn't hear enough of, and when I was learning photography and trying to consume as much media as possible, I didn't really ever hear anyone say, like, ask questions and And the taking calculated risks side, and taking chances, cause the end of the curling story, long story short, I used my access to get out onto the ice during the gold medal celebration, which Canada won in Canada. So that was huge. And funny enough, I got a photo from the celebration that ended up being published in a magazine.

Raymond Hatfield: 31:25

Really?

Shane Wilkie: 31:26

so it kind of goes back to what you said about taking the gig for free to, kind of better yourself. Cause. I can honestly say that was like the single most rewarding thing I've done in photography.

Raymond Hatfield: 31:37

Mm why do you think your photo was chosen rather than, you said that there was other, official photographers and, photographers from wire services. why yours do you think?

Shane Wilkie: 31:48

you know what, I really don't know because of the one that got chosen of Canadian curler, Rachel Homan, like lifting up the trophy and kissing it. I think there was four other photographers and we were all shoulder to shoulder, all took the shot. And maybe I just was standing in the right spot. I don't know. Maybe the magazine had. Access to only my photo, and you know, it was funny I shouldn't have got that photo because I made such an amateur mistake I was so worried about being where I needed to be to run out at the right time Raymond I went out both my camera bodies had blinking red batteries

Raymond Hatfield: 32:24

Shane!

Shane Wilkie: 32:25

And you know what? I'm pleased to say I made it through got all the shots and neither of them died

Raymond Hatfield: 32:31

Oh my gosh.

Shane Wilkie: 32:33

Like, how does that

Raymond Hatfield: 32:34

Just you saying that, my anxiety is like, oh no. Oh no, that's the worst. that's only happened to me

Shane Wilkie: 32:40

oh yeah, it's Horrible cuz I was all cool guy when the first one was blinking red like whatever I got another one here And then like, oh no

Raymond Hatfield: 32:50

Not both

Shane Wilkie: 32:51

Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield: 32:51

Okay, so, you learn from that? Did you buy more batteries or did you buy a grip? or are you shooting less? Like, how are you going to avoid that ever happening again?

Shane Wilkie: 33:00

I always Even if I have a full battery, I have a full one in my pocket, too Like one of my spares is always in my pocket.

Raymond Hatfield: 33:08

Good call, good call. That's like, a pro tip for wedding photographers is always carry an extra pair of pants in your car. Just in case.

Shane Wilkie: 33:16

Do you know what's funny?

Raymond Hatfield: 33:17

there's nothing worse.

Shane Wilkie: 33:19

do you know what's funny? Where I mentioned I shot a wedding last week? I totally, because I've heard you mention it on the podcast, I had a pair of pants and a shirt in a bag, in the back

Raymond Hatfield: 33:29

Yes! Yes! Go

Shane Wilkie: 33:33

Because you know

Raymond Hatfield: 33:34

you have to use them?

Shane Wilkie: 33:35

Oh, no, no, I didn't. No.

Raymond Hatfield: 33:37

thank goodness they were there, yeah.

Shane Wilkie: 33:38

gear malfunctions. It's not always just your camera gear,

Raymond Hatfield: 33:42

always just your camera gear, exactly. Exactly. No, I had a wedding a few years ago and this couple like already were kind of like, it's not that they were on the fence about me. But they originally wanted to book another photographer who was booked for their date. And then that photographer referred them to me. And just in talking to them, I was like, Oh, okay. They want a little bit more of what this other photographer does than what I do. But it's not so wildly off that I can't deliver. I will do my best here, right? so I always felt like I was battling this uphill battle, like the entire engagement shoot, the entire wedding, all of it. And then at the end of the night, they were doing this like sparkler exit and like they were throwing rice or whatever. And I was like, all right, I'm good to go. Like. I promise you, I had checked all of my stuff before, waiting for them to come out. And then once they opened up those doors and started walking out, yeah, my camera did the same thing. It was like, oh, uh, flashing battery, you only have, like, one photo. I got one shot. I only got one

Shane Wilkie: 34:40

oh it actually died

Raymond Hatfield: 34:42

Actually died. Yeah, actually died. would turn it off, pull the battery real quick, put it back in, turn it back on, hoping that maybe it would cool it down just enough to give it one more shot, and it never did, so I only got one shot, and surprisingly, they never said anything about only having one shot of this, hundred foot, sparkler exit, where you'd think that they would have at least, like, a dozen photos, but they never said anything, and it was their, like, profile photo for a while, still to this day, I have nightmares of that moment, I have no idea what happened, but, Terrifying for sure. So yeah, I got home and ordered like seven more official Fuji batteries online and I had to take out a second mortgage because as you know like official batteries are like so expensive but And I never want to find myself in that position again. So Anyway, I want to move on and talk about, your upcoming projects as well, because you told me about this, in your email that you've been working on this for a while. This is a big project and you even kind of alluded to it there. Tell me what it is that you got going on. And I already have some more questions, but I'll wait until we get kind of a scope of what this is. What are you working on?

Shane Wilkie: 35:41

I'm doing a project that focuses on A couple things kind of like my upbringing. i'm adopted I was adopted when I was three months old, and I've kind of just, all my life like, I've always held that as part of my identity. It was very special to me, and I was very open about it. And then in through my 20s and whatnot, it became a little more of a sensitive topic, and I could never figure out why. And I avoided it. It led to a bad alcohol addiction all through my 20s. And then, when I got sober and when I was 30, Something happened where I really had to tackle these emotions head on. And this project has kind of been my way of doing that, to represent these feelings with my photos. yeah, it's like, I applied for funding from a grant that the city here in city, Nova Scotia was offering through the creative catalyst program and I got approved for 2500 dollars. Towards this project to cover just certain costs. I mean mainly printing to do Exhibition towards the end of the year in December there, but yeah, so doubling back there There's a big focus on like the adoption side of it But also how I never felt like I fit in with peers My community as well as how I use skateboarding as that outlet and I found skateboarding at a time in my life where I've never My parents had separated, like, sports. I loved them, but it wasn't really working, for me at the time. I should say it wasn't working for me. That's a weird way to say it, I guess. But it, almost like, I wasn't getting out of it what I could've. Because I wasn't putting enough in. And then skating was this something completely new thing for me. And eventually through skating is how I, found a camera which kind of is why we're here so I almost think of it as like that's the perfect focus for like a first project is Depicting these feelings that kind of led me to get to photography.

Raymond Hatfield: 37:47

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. it's a very open thing to share and obviously your, your struggles as well. how do you plan to showcase this emotion? Is there even a word for the emotion that you're trying to capture, I guess. Walk me through how you plan to create this project where you're putting so much feeling and emotion into visual images.

Shane Wilkie: 38:11

So How I went about it really was I had to just learn how to see differently and That sounds kind of funny to say but like I had to learn how to see feeling through my camera And like how to convey that and that Looking at other photo projects and photo books became pretty vital and learning about new photographers just because, it's different than trying to take a photo of someone having breakfast to try to portray this nice warm feeling of, Hey, look how gorgeous this Airbnb is. where I have to say like, oh, how do I portray that? This was what my home life felt like versus this is what it was like, or this is how I didn't know why I was angry towards, I don't want to say everything because that's just like a stereotypical teenage thing, I guess. But like, you know what I mean? Like it was, Looking at photo projects as well as I was very fortunate to become really good pals with a local photographer who more or less has been a mentor to me and really opened my eyes to like seeing different types of photography and showing me photographers who could be like, Hey, check this guy's workout. Maybe this is kind of what you're going to be after. Or, Oh, Hey, she does really good black and white work. Look at this. he really would kind of like question things, I would say. And I think that's just huge in photography. honestly, I listened to your episode this morning your newest one about criticism with the,

Raymond Hatfield: 39:46

Mm hmm.

Shane Wilkie: 39:47

I forgot the guy's name. I was listening to it at work, so apologies to the, guest. Your episode was great. but anyways, just how, like seeking proper criticism in photography, doing it in person. the value of going over a photo together. And it was a lot of that went into like approaching the project. And then it was, pulling the strings of using connections to get an in somewhere because I need a photo of this type of thing. um,

Raymond Hatfield: 40:13

would you know that you need a photo of this type of thing? what is this type of thing?

Shane Wilkie: 40:17

so that's a good question because that was a really hard challenge of knowing. Almost like the checklist of what I need and what I kind of did with it was I picked Okay, this is where I want the project to kind of end. How do I work backwards story wise and I would think Okay, well, I need a photo to kind of capture, certain things. I would write them down. Then I would research that type of photo. And then maybe go out and try to look for something that felt to me like it represented that.

Raymond Hatfield: 40:48

you have an example that you could share? I'm just trying to paint a visual picture in my head of what this looks like.

Shane Wilkie: 40:54

Yeah, totally. so there's a photo in the project where I shot it actually at a wrestling show. I really wanted to show innocence. in anger, but you don't know why, like you're just a kid and you're just mad. And you're trying to process all these feelings of growing up where in my case, it was feelings of growing up mixed with just other emotional and mental struggles. And I noticed there was these kids at this one wrestling show and they were giving the middle finger to every wrestler, good guy or bad guy, didn't matter. They were so happy to just yell and participate. And I got this one photo of this kid and the innocence in his eyes and his face. And he's two hands up, giving the middle finger. And it almost looks like he's giving it to no one or he's not looking at anyone in particular. And it's that feeling of, you know, you don't know what you're looking at. And coincidentally framed behind him is someone holding a sign that says, shut up on it. Just kind of adding to that anger and that.

Raymond Hatfield: 41:57

Yeah, right, yeah. before this person even showed up, they had the mind, the peace of mind to get a poster board and write, Shut. Up. Yeah, yeah, that fits that. So when you describing that sounds to me like you saw the scene and you thought, Wow, This perfectly encapsulates something within me. was it like that? Or did you think to yourself, I need a photo of, childlike anger. Now I'm going to just look at the world through that lens.

Shane Wilkie: 42:28

So I kind of knew I needed innocence. I needed it in positive and negative. Like kids angry, kids just being kids enjoying themselves. And in that moment, when I took the photo and I saw those kids, I didn't kind of jump to that's the one I need, as much as I jumped to there's something there. And it's kind of about, I felt like it was more about knowing To go with your gut and when you know there's something in front of you. And to wait and be patient.

Raymond Hatfield: 42:58

Hmm.

Shane Wilkie: 42:58

it was kind of from there, just a matter of waiting for the right moment.

Raymond Hatfield: 43:02

Tell me more about what you're going to do with this photo. Cause this is a grant. Is it by the city? Is that right?

Shane Wilkie: 43:10

Yeah, it's, by the city.

Raymond Hatfield: 43:11

So, are you going to put that image, like, are you going to print that up big? Some kid, you know, double middle fingers with a sign that says shut up behind it. Like, where is this going to go? Does that make sense?

Shane Wilkie: 43:24

no.

Raymond Hatfield: 43:24

you thinking to yourself, this is a personal project for me, maybe that's not going to be one that gets printed, I guess walk me through that decision process or fill me in on what I'm missing.

Shane Wilkie: 43:33

So do you mean where within the sequencing of project or where the image will live afterwards, like print online,

Raymond Hatfield: 43:42

where's this photo going to go? Yeah.

Shane Wilkie: 43:44

you know what? I'm printing them all, and I'm gonna have a gallery exhibition, but outside of that, I really don't know yet

Raymond Hatfield: 43:51

So there was no stipulations by the city, like your art is going to have to be put on billboards or, buses or anything like that. There was no, nothing like that. You could do whatever you decide to do with your images.

Shane Wilkie: 44:01

Yeah, that's correct, for the most part, as long as you're not using funding for monetary gain, to create a product, essentially. So yeah, but, kind of to touch on, too, where it fits, kind of, within the sequencing, is I think it's, really that early on stage within the project, which, Kind of where I talked about earlier, about working backwards, which, that's interesting, is you can go out and take all these photos and think, these are all just really pretty photos, but isn't it when you go put them next to each other you think oh, that doesn't fit, or, oh, those two look good together.

Raymond Hatfield: 44:35

hmm. So you're physically printing out all these photos, what, small and then just trying to like arrange them on, the floor, on a table? Is that what you're

Shane Wilkie: 44:42

I haven't physically printed anything yet, but it's all, often just like arranging them on a screen, or just like, even shuffling through them in my phone. but even just like the thought of thinking of like if I have one image, what might look good next to it kind of thing. For instance, like what color could look good next to it? what tones are going to look good? if I have a really crunchy high contrast on one side, I maybe want to complement it with something on the other and just be conscious of that.

Raymond Hatfield: 45:11

Yeah. Yeah. So, let's say, it's the end of the year, it's opening night of your gallery, right? People are walking through. What do you want them to say to you? What's the feeling that you want them to walk away with?

Shane Wilkie: 45:23

Definitely the feeling that, This can happen to, people where they have these feelings, I guess, but can't vocalize them because for me, I haven't really been able to vocalize them until recently, but I would really want people to know that you may have certain types of feelings that you're harboring, but, or emotions or other, but you can have an outlet like photography, like art, like sports, just cause like, for me, that outlet was skateboarding. So that's. Why it's featured in the project and just so yeah, like kind of inspire people to like I don't wanna say get into art, but maybe if making art makes them feel better or learn more about themselves or anything. Yeah. Like kind of raise awareness in that sense, I guess, especially for youth. There's not a whole lot to do around here. it's funny. There is and there isn't if you're a youth. You're maybe not as open minded to certain things, so certain, bad choices might appeal a little more. So, if I could get one kid, like, kid to just look at it and get inspired to, like, draw, how cool would that be?

Raymond Hatfield: 46:29

Yeah. No, that would be cool. and I think that's definitely like a driver for me as well. the older that I get I feel like my art, I guess if you want to call it that, has become less about creating pretty things. in whatever it is that I capture and more about creating something that's going to make somebody feel

Shane Wilkie: 46:46

Mm hmm.

Raymond Hatfield: 46:47

and in particular, I felt somewhat recently, I think with a bit of a rejuvenation of the podcast that like my art is more encouraging. Somebody else to make something, if that makes sense, I was listening to a, another podcast today with a basketball coach, and this guy has been coaching basketball. For the past like 30 years and he was talking about how he talks to his players in college and He's like when they go through something challenging he's like I try to give them grace and I try to talk to them like talk to me about what you're going through right now because not to be rude or anything, but like I've made it You know, like I've made it, I'm like 55 years old, I've made it, you want to make it. So like, wherever you are, I've been there in some sense, how can I help you get to whatever that next step is? And it's like, he doesn't get paid maybe as much as say, players do. But like, he has found a purpose and an art in that form of creating something right there. And that's kind of where I've seen the podcast being lately. But, I guess from a tactical standpoint, I want to know from you, how will you know when you're done with this project? How will you know that you've captured the right images? How will you know if you've done a good job or not?

Shane Wilkie: 48:00

well, there is a deadline for it. I do have to have it out before the end of the year. But I think it's kind of one of those things where it's does it ever end? Mm hmm. You know what I mean? Like as photographers, are we ever satisfied to some degree? Because I know myself, I could probably finish it and think that, oh, there's like three, I could have three ideas will pop up right after I put it out. You know what I mean? So I kind of see this as something where I may release it in December, but I can just keep shooting this feeling and I can keep chasing this because I think that's something I've really learned through this project is the importance of personal work. especially with how much commercial stuff I do, that, just to have that sketch pad and to have that, just chasing a feeling versus like photo for a client. at the end of the day, if you go out for a client, you have to get X amount of images. They have to be good, probably exposed and focused, blah, blah, blah. But if you go out for yourself, you may only have to get one image. You may not have to get an image. You may turn your camera on and take 3, 000 images. You may not turn your camera on at all, but it's that for you aspect of it, where I think that I'll probably just keep the project going, just keep shooting and see what happens with it.

Raymond Hatfield: 49:15

Shane, I'm not even going to ask you any more questions because I can't think of a better way to end it than right there. That's as motivational as it gets, for sure. people listening and I'm going to want to know as well, where can we find out more about you and where can we see some of your images, especially from this project, online? Where's the best place to do that?

Shane Wilkie: 49:31

So my website for sure. nothing about the project is on there just yet. I'm kind of going to roll it out on social media first, but my website's just my name at Shane Wilkie. com Instagram at Shane Wilkie. People use Facebook and want to check me out with Shane Wilkie photography on Facebook.

Raymond Hatfield: 49:49

I truly love seeing community members succeed and then continue their journey by sharing what they've learned, by what has worked and what hasn't worked for them with others. And I want to help you to get a leg up right now. If you're brand new, you know, maybe you've never charged for photos in your life, or, even if you're still, just looking for an easier way to book clients. Thanks. I want to encourage you to grab my free training called make your first 100 with your camera in it I'm gonna break down the exact system that I used to start and grow my business Over 10 years of shooting weddings This is as it's basic enough to get you started if you've never done it before and it's robust enough to allow you to grow with your photography business And at the end of it, you will have made your first 100 in photography. Winter is the perfect time to learn this system so that by spring you will be a client booking master. So again, grab it for free. It's totally free. Why would you not do this? So sign up now. Just grab it over at firstphotoclient. com Next up is my interview with Rachel Boer, who will teach you how to build a high quality portfolio by reaching out to friends and family for free sessions. And how to network effectively at events to grow your mailing list. And if you don't have a mailing list, that's okay. We talk about that as well. You're gonna learn her strategy for focusing on client experience to create happy memories that lead to referrals and then how Rachel thanks those who refer her new clients. We're also going to talk about the importance of budgeting for marketing. You know, how do you know how much to spend on marketing and building community relationships through free events to create a strong business foundation. So let's get into it So, Rachel, my first question for you is, when did you know that photography was first going to play an important role in your

Rachael Boer: 51:38

life? Yeah. Great question. my background is actually in music. I grew up in music. My whole family was musicians and we all went to music school and kind of thought we were going to pursue classical music. I went to Juilliard. This was like a big part of my life. And I think after being in that world for a long time, I kind of reached burnout, you know, at a certain point. And I decided I needed to take a different, I knew I wanted to do something creative that kind of still scratched that same itch, but not music necessarily, just to kind of take a break from it. And so when my first child was born, this is like the classic story, right? When my first child was born, somebody gifted me a camera and I started photographing my child. And then it kind of grew and neighbors were asking, friends were asking, can you take photos of my kids? And so it's one of those things where it just evolves out of nothing. I didn't have a business background. I had the creativity side, but I didn't have the business side. So that was something I had to learn along the way and make some painful mistakes along the way. Um, and eventually that became my favorite part of business. I love the business side. I still enjoy being creative, but, learning about, marketing and sales and pricing and psychology and all that stuff, that is so fun for me. And so then I kind of, evolved into teaching that as well to other photographers.

Raymond Hatfield: 52:45

I feel like that's the exact opposite of what most people's journey is, is that they love the creative side of it so that they get into photography and then they loathe the business side of it so that they stop doing it, or they get into photography because they know that they're good at the business or that that gets them excited. Very rarely does somebody get into it for one and then switch the other. Yeah. But let's, take a step back real quick because, music is very much a, I think in the same vein as photography. It's very creative. There are obviously technical elements to it, but you can explore things on your own. photography is also one of those things that as you continue to get into it, It's easy for some to feel burnout. So I want to link these two together. I want to know, what was it about music that you were feeling the burnout from? And two, since photography is kind of similar to music, how are you making sure that you don't feel the burnout with photography?

Rachael Boer: 53:38

yeah, you're right. That they're very similar. It's sort of like if you, and we used to have to do this in college, they would say, go to the library, pull out every recording you can of this scene. And listen to every single recording that you can back to back and you'll hear how the musicians are all taking the same exact notes, the same rhythms, but they're putting their own spin on it, their own creative phrasing and timing and dynamics. And so each piece almost sounds like a different piece, although it's the same subject, and I think with photography, it's the same thing. If you take one. Child or baby, and you give that subject to 10 photographers, they're going to shoot that same subject in such beautifully different ways with their own spin and their own perspective. And I love that. So that's, to me, they feel very similar kind of in the way the brain approaches the art, whether it's, you know, I was a violinist. So, you know, playing violin or picking up my camera. It's kind of very similar. You get to take this subject that's just standing there in front of you and turn it into something really personal and really beautiful. I was burnt out, I think, just simply by sort of overexposure. If you're going to go to that level and you're going to be at the very top of your field, you have to train. you got to practice four, six, eight hours a day, go to rehearsals another four hours a day, go to music classes for four or five more hours a day, you just run out of hours, and all you're doing during that time is, is this one subject. And so for me, I think it was simply just a matter of feeling like I wanted to explore something else, anything else, after being so heavily invested in that field. and photography was a great experience. Outlet because I could do it on my own time. I could pick up a book while my kids were sleeping or in the middle of the night. I remember sitting there nursing a baby and making my photography website at the same time. It was something I could fit into my life in a flexible way. So it wasn't I had to go out and go back to college and get another job in corporate America where I'd be gone 95. I could fit it in around my other priorities in a really comfortable way. And then over time, it sort of grew into the main thing. But, Yeah, I think burnout in photography also is a risk for all of us. And I think the deeper we get into it, the more we do risk that. I had reached that point with weddings several years ago where I was doing a lot of weddings and they're very exhausting. They really are. I'm getting older. Like it's not as easy as it used to be to stay up till 1 a. m. at somebody's reception at some hotel downtown and then drag myself home. Right. So. I was having to find creative ways to stay fresh with weddings and after a while decided, you know, I'm going to focus more on the portraits and the headshot side of things because that's something that's a little bit lighter, for me, a little bit easier to do, still fulfilling, just less hours. So that has helped with the burnout on my part. That

Raymond Hatfield: 56:03

makes sense. Yeah. And I think again, as you said, to me, it sounds like finding a way for it to fit into your life is extremely important rather than making it all consuming because, Anything all consuming is, it's easy to get burnt out, for sure. When you first got that camera, you're photographing your child, you're reading these books in the middle of the night, I'm sure that you have the brain coming from this musical background, to understand the technical side of it, but there's still very different technical aspects. Was there anything specifically that you struggled with within learning photography that, was difficult for you?

Rachael Boer: 56:38

Yeah, absolutely. I remember my very first book about photography was Brian Peterson's Understanding Exposure, which is still a great book, and I recommend it to anybody who's starting. It's a really beautiful picture book, so you can enjoy the visuals and the examples in there, but also he really breaks it down and there's, okay, let's learn about shutter speed. Okay, let's learn about aperture and, ISO, putting all these things together. How does that triangle work? And, you know, I remember the first time I was working my way through that book. I think it was like Christmas vacation. We were at my relative's house and I was sitting on the floor just going. What? Wait, what? Wait, okay, what? And I just didn't understand the technical aspects, so if I go up a stop with my aperture, I have to, what now? It was really hard kind of trying to learn just from a book, and back then, I'm gonna make myself sound older than I am, the internet wasn't as much a thing where like, I didn't think, oh let me go watch a video on that, that'll make it easier. it wasn't as accessible as it is now to get education that way, so I was like, I'm just gonna go really slowly through this book, line by line by line, work with my camera. And try to figure this out. And by the time I got to the end of that book, I did have a really good grasp on how to shoot in manual. And, I use those skills every single day, but there was definitely a learning curve. I'm not good at math. And so I feel like some musicians are good at math. I am not. So anything involving numbers and ratios and all that, kind of tripped me up at first, but once you get the hang of it, like anything else, it gets easier. So, um, thankfully that learning curve wasn't too, too long. You hit it again when you try to learn lighting, if you try to learn off camera flash or anything like that. You're right back in there going, wait, what, what? And then, you can get there. But yeah, that process is always, it's fun and not fun at the same time. Stretching, but a little frustrating. It's

Raymond Hatfield: 58:11

fun and not fun at the same time. Well, I don't think a truer statement has ever been made about photography. Yeah, absolutely. Especially when you're trying to learn. you're reading this book, and for all intents and purposes, this is a master photographer who is teaching you how to use your camera, and it's still confusing as you go through and read it. how do you get over that? How do you get over the not understanding the text that's on the book to get to where you are today?

Rachael Boer: 58:38

as I was working my way through that book, I remember I said, I'm literally just going to read one sentence and I'm not going to move to the next one until I understand the last one. I was really determined to just slow down, take my time, there was no rush, I was, no one was waiting on me to finish this, it was something I wanted to do. so I really, really took my time going through each exercise in the book. He also gives you, I think, exercises for practicing, different shutter speeds and adjusting your aperture and things like that. So I pulled out, an apple and put it on the kitchen table and I practiced shooting it wide open and stopping down and seeing what effect that had on the photo. And, you know, I really just took my time with it. so I do feel like it's solidified and cemented those concepts. Because if I just read about something and walk away, I'll forget it. But if I read it and then I go practice it, it will stick. So for me, I think that was really the process of just unpacking it piece by piece and working on it a little at a time, you know, and not, not trying to rush through it. And

Raymond Hatfield: 59:28

actually doing it. That's the part that I think people gloss over. They're like, I'll watch this YouTube video. I'll read this book. I'll subscribe to this newsletter. I'll take this course. But then, months later, why do I still not understand photography? It's because you're not actually doing it. So that is, great. I appreciate you sharing that. So how did we turn from, I got this camera, I'm frustrated, but I'm starting to figure it out. I'm taking these photos of my kids to starting a business. Tell me about that progression. Specifically, I want to know about like your first client that you didn't know, right? were you nervous? and how did it turn out?

Rachael Boer: 1:00:07

Yeah, that's a great question. I haven't thought that far back in a little while. So that's fun. so yeah, I was taking photos of my own children first. I had, one or two babies at this point, they were young. And talk about practicing, on your family. If I go back and look at a lot of the photos of my first two babies, they're terrible photos, terrible, because I was in, I was insistent. I'm going to only shoot in manual. I won't, I'm not, I didn't want to learn. Not that those things are bad, but I was just determined I'm going to only shoot manual forever. And so there's these photos of my son on the bed and it's like dark and grainy and blurry. Like I made all the mistakes all at once in this one photo, right? so, you know, they weren't all winners, but I'd occasionally get a great shot. And I was like, Yes, you know, I felt it was like really exciting when once in a while, all the stars align, you do everything right in that photo and you get something beautiful. So it was worth it, to make all those mistakes to learn. And then I was just photographing friends and family for a little while I think church friends or neighbors or like my sister would ask, hey, can you take photos of my kids. So that gave me some free practice without any pressure. I definitely valued that time because I made a lot of mistakes on those as well. But I always thought if I leave a session with. my nephew and let's say I bombed 90 percent of the shots, but I got them 10 beautiful shots. I'll be happy. They'll be happy. I've learned a lot and I can go home and figure out what did I do wrong? Oh, my ISO was too high here. Oh, my shutter speed was too low. Everybody's blurry. And so then I can avoid those mistakes next time. So I really wanted to practice before I ever considered. Taking a paying client and, you know, it's my sister who actually told me, I credit her for this whole business. Cause she said, you know, you should start a business. I literally hadn't even thought about it. I was just having fun, like, yeah, people would pay you for this. And honestly, I wasn't probably ready at that time that she said it, I still had so much to learn, but she gave me the confidence to start thinking about it. And then I sort of dove into that subject. Just like I had. So I went to the library and I checked out every book in the business section about starting a business and I read all those books. And then I went to Barnes Noble. I remember sitting on the floor of Barnes Noble just reading through the entire business section. I went to the library down the way. And I just gathered as much information as I could again, the old fashioned way, just reading and started to apply that to my own photography. And so my business slowly, started, taking off. And I think my very first client, if I'm remembering right, I can't remember which one was number one and number two here, but I'm remembering right. It was a family who had had a newborn baby and they had a two year old. That combination has become, I don't know if it's my nemesis or my signature over the years. It seems like every client I have has a newborn and a two year old. I don't know why, but that combo can be tricky because parents want to focus on the new baby. But also they have this two year old who's probably going through a lot of emotions of being dethroned from their only child role. So there can be some big feelings and then the parents want the photos of them together in this beautiful, idyllic scene. And that can be hard to get, right? Two year olds are not always the most cooperative. And it seemed like, when that first client came in, it was setting the stage for what I'd be doing a lot of. and, I just remember feeling totally out of my depth. It's so nervous going into that home. I mean, I went to their home for the session, terrified. Cause I didn't know what kind of lighting I was going to find. I wasn't using off camera lights yet. So it was like, whatever I find is what I'm going to have to make work. And there's a lot of pressure there. Obviously it went well enough that I kept going. So, you know, nothing catastrophic happened there, but yeah, I just remember the fear walking into that first session going, okay, this is it. They're paying me. I have to produce something good here, and I think that pressure sort of fuels me too. So it's probably a good thing in the long run. Ah,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:03:37

Would you still feel, I don't know, how many weddings would you estimate that you've shot?

Rachael Boer: 1:03:42

Oh, I don't know. I'm not one of those massively high volume people. I'm, oh, 100, 150.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:03:48

In that time, did you find that, you would still show up to weddings and get butterflies?

Rachael Boer: 1:03:53

Oh, 100%. Not just butterflies. Like, I would always feel like I was going to throw up on a wedding morning.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:03:58

Okay, yes. that fear, and this is something that I've been trying to figure out lately, is that the fear of the unknown? Is it the fear of doing a bad job? Is it the fear of something else? what do you think that feeling

Rachael Boer: 1:04:10

is? Probably both of those things. It's the unknown, especially if you're an on location photographer and you've never been to that location before, you don't know what you're going to have to work with lighting, backgrounds, space, that's stressful. And then I think, yeah, fear of letting the client down. You know, we have this, whether it's a newborn or a wedding, it sort of doesn't matter a headshot, anything, When people show up, they're putting themselves in a very vulnerable situation in front of your camera. It's a little uncomfortable for them a lot of times, and they're putting a lot of trust in you. It's very personal. yeah, there's certainly weight on your shoulders to get it right and to do a good job. You don't want to have to. reshoot and some things you can't reshoot like a wedding. So that's the pressure for sure. particularly for events like that, that are once in a lifetime, you got to get it right. You got to get it right the first

Raymond Hatfield: 1:04:54

time. And it's so funny. Cause it's like, we know how to use the camera and like you gain enough skill, you know how to use light, you know how to either find it or, use it artificially and still you show up. And cause I feel that way too. And I think to myself, Oh my gosh, like, what is going to happen today? Like, I don't know. And I know that I could get through it. And at the end of every single wedding day, just about every wedding day, I thought to myself, I got it. Like, we're good. Yeah. And trying to figure out what is that inside? And, maybe that's a bigger question for this pod than, than for this

Rachael Boer: 1:05:22

pod. Oh, but I think it's good. Cause I think if you don't have that fear, it means you don't care anymore. You don't really care about your clients and you're not going to bring your best work. You're just showing up. and I think that fear is what, like I said, it propels us to do a better job. If I wasn't worried about missing something, I might miss something, you know? And so I think we need that little bit of anxiety to be a little on edge because it keeps us sharp and it makes us, okay, double check, triple check. Do I have this? Do I have that? did I get my settings right here before I start shooting? I see that anxiety as a welcome thing, although it doesn't feel very welcome. Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:05:54

it's not a welcomed emotion, but it's a welcome. Yeah, of course. Now I understand. I think what I was trying to get out there is that, a lot of, photographers who are listening right now are probably at that stage where you are when your sister said, Hey, maybe you can start charging for this. And they think to themselves, like, I don't have the skill for this. I don't know. And just the thought of it gives me anxiety right now. so to hear from you that even after years of shooting, you can still have that feeling and confidently be able to capture, what a client needs. So then what's that first step? When do we know that we are ready? To take a, our first client.

Rachael Boer: 1:06:31

That's a great question. and I don't want to, you know, this is such an important question. I don't want to steer anyone wrong by saying this, but I'll say it, I think it depends a little bit on what type of work you want to take on. Because like I said, for things that are once in a lifetime, if you're going to do a wedding or you're going to do an event that is, you get one shot at this and literally you cannot redo it, the pressure is greater and therefore I think the expectation has to be greater that you are. 100 percent ready, before you dive in there. I don't want to see someone being like, you know, I'm thinking of taking my first wedding. I don't really have my exposure figured out, but I'm sure I'll figure it out by then. You know what I mean? You want to be like, absolutely. I got this rain or shine light or no light. I can make it work. Right. If you're doing something like families in the park, let's say, or pets or something where, you know, if you do make a mistake because you are new and you will make mistakes, but if it's a big enough mistake, you can say, Hey, My bad, I'm brand new. I messed up something. can we go back out and shoot again tomorrow? You know, that's going to be okay. That'll work. You can't do that at a wedding. So I think how ready you need to be does depend a little bit on what you want to take. Not that I think you should give families, a bad job either, cause obviously you do want to be prepared no matter who the client is. But like I said, there's just a little more grace and a little more forgiveness in some areas than others. Right. I hope that's not like, Not, you know, if it's okay to say not too controversial. but that's how I would feel about it. And how do you know you're ready? I think one thing to remember is you'll probably never feel ready. Like I said, that anxiety is pretty real for most of us, and it doesn't always serve us, although sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It keeps us held back from what we really could be capable of doing. I think it's really good to have some kind of mentor in the photography space, somebody who's been doing it longer, who's better than you, who's more experienced than you. Who can speak into your life and say, yeah, you know what? You are ready. I've seen your work. I've seen you shoot, you've helped me with some shoots. I see that you're very capable and confident. You've got this. Or to have someone say, you know, you're getting there. You're not quite there yet. You need to work on your composition. You're, lighting's a little off. Who can give me like some feedback? Cause I think it's hard to judge yourself if you're ready or not. Isn't that, isn't it hard to tell like, Where you are at with your skills,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:08:35

you know, for me today. Yes, very much. Let's see. When is this gonna come out? This is gonna come out April 16th. Okay, so great this is gonna be hard to talk about because when this comes out it's in the past But from now it's in the future With the eclipse coming up, it's coming like directly over Indie. And I've had this idea in my head of the downtown skyline with the eclipse like directly above it. And I was like, that'd be a great photo. And I've been doing like all this, this math, which is not my strong suit. And I went out to, try to find the right spot, And I had this like augmented reality app and I found that, oh my gosh, like, it, the eclipse is going to be much higher in the sky than I imagined that it would and, Indy's rather flat. So it's like, in my head, I thought, before setting all this up, I know how to use my camera. I know how to use filters. I can set this up. I got this. But it wasn't until I actually went out there that I thought, Oh my gosh, like I am way over my head here and figuring all this out. So yeah, I mean, still today I definitely go through that. so getting back to, some listeners here, because getting into the business is a very difficult thing. To do, and you had mentioned there that, some late nights you were staying up while you were nursing and we're building your own website, right? We know that we got to get out there. We know that we have to get our name out there. That is, we know that people have to know about us. how do you start? To get there because that's maybe this is more of a mental, shift episode, but still like having that thought into your head of like, am I ready? Am I not ready? But I'm putting myself out there to be hired, which kind of implies that I'm ready. And people don't want to hire somebody who's not an expert, but I'm not an expert. And it's all these things. So. I apologize. That's a very, that's very much a thing. It is. It is. But is there anything that you have to say to that to try to make people feel better about that decision? I think I

Rachael Boer: 1:10:20

do. I think imposter syndrome is something we're all very keenly aware of. And even those of us who've been in this field for a long time probably still experience that. Like, well, who am I? Why would they come to me? I'm not a very good photographer compared to anybody else here. we all feel like that no matter how advanced we are. I think first of all, just knowing that that feeling will always just coexist with us as artists is sort of a helpful thing. We can learn to live alongside it, right? And I think as you're getting started, probably to this point, if you're thinking of starting a business, you have photographed lots of people by now, or lots of animals, or lots of whatever it is that you're going to be photographing. And likely you've been getting feedback along the way from those people, whether it's friends and family or neighbors or whoever you've been photographing, like in my case, lots of friends and family from church, they gave me feedback. Oh my gosh, Rachel, these pictures are so beautiful. Oh, these are such a treasure. I'm so happy to have these. And so I feel like, if you can take that feedback and that, joy that you bring to clients and you can pocket Those messages away, and maybe even keep them in a folder. You know, anytime someone writes you in a kind note or set gushes in an email or, it leaves you a testimonial or whatever it is, keep that, save that, put it in a folder because on the low days, you're going to want to read those things again, you're going to want a reminder of like, why do we do this? Especially if I'm feeling like an imposter that day, let me go back and read 20 notes from people who were so grateful and blessed and thankful to have your photography work. Right. And then I think you could take that into the business side of things and say, Hey, I have brought people joy. I've helped people. they're telling me this is valuable service. They're telling me I've brought value to their lives. Why do I want to deprive the rest of my community of that joy and that value? I'm going to go ahead and do this for them. I'm going to bring them the same joy and value. and it really, if you can make it about sort of what you can give to people, what you could bring to them, how much you can maximize their joy and delight, right? And it's not about the money. It is about the money, but it's not about the money. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, of course. Yeah. You need money to be able to keep going and to be able to obviously pay your expenses and feed your family. We're all worth a good wage, but if you keep your focus, I think on what you're bringing to the client, it just helps make all of us easier. It's easier to market. It's easier to talk about yourself. It's easier to spread the word about your business because you know, you're going to be bringing people something really valuable. You're not cheating them. You're not tricking them. You're not. Opening up their wallet and forcing them to give you money at gunpoint. they want to be here. They want what you have to offer. So I see it as kind of offering them an opportunity to enjoy my work and to have my work in their home. and it ends up being a win win because they pay me and I'm happy. They're happy. We're all happy, right?

Raymond Hatfield: 1:12:53

I really hope that listeners like go back and listen to what you just said there because what I took away I think would have really helped me when I had first got started because I was very technically focused, right? If I can deliver technically good photo, they're going to love it, which as we know, is not necessarily the case. but if I came at it in the sense of like, I can help you feel comfortable in front of the camera. I can make you feel like the camera's not there and still get great, portraits of you and your new spouse on your wedding day. that's delivering a service, right? It's not the product that you're delivering. It's that service. And there are going to be people who want that. They don't necessarily want, technically the best photos in the world. They just want to feel comfortable on their wedding day. And that's a service that you can definitely deliver regard Well, I don't want to say regardless of your, knowledge of a camera. But, with A certain amount of knowledge with your camera. that is a great tip there. And, I really appreciate you sharing that. So let's move now into the marketing side, because I know that this is an area that you really enjoy. You said that you love the business side and figuring out all the marketing stuff. One of the questions that I get asked a lot, and honestly I struggle with myself, is that there's so many places where we can be, and there's so many things that we can do from SEO and networking and, just cold outreach, social media, so, so, so many things, so many places. I know that we can be everywhere, but help me make sense of how to figure out where we should.

Rachael Boer: 1:14:15

Yes. Yes, you're thinking specifically maybe when you're starting out in business. Yeah, that'd be the target time Okay, because yeah, I think it will shift over time. I mean if you get to the point You're running a, you got two or three studios, you got associate photographers, you got a huge budget. I mean, it's gonna look very different than like, hey, I have my camera and me, that's all I got. So yeah, if we focus in on that starting off time, I think a couple of universal things are gonna be true. You probably don't have a huge budget for marketing yet. I do recommend that you take at least 5 percent of every dollar you make and set it aside and do a little marketing fund for yourself. I think PPA, the Professional Photographers of America, they have sort of these benchmarks. And I was just going back and double checking and I think they recommend 5 percent minimum marketing budget, annually. So, starting to build a little fund for that so that when an opportunity does arise, You have some money set aside and you can go ahead and take advantage of that opportunity. a lot of people want to spend as little as possible on marketing. If you ask them like, well, what's your marketing budget? They're like, Oh, I don't really have a budget. I just, you know, try not to spend too, you know, but if we can say, Hey, 5 percent of every dollar is set aside for marketing, it kind of changes your mindset. Like, Oh, what do I want to do with that money? Oh, I'm watching that money grow. Oh, I'm up to 250. What could I do for 250 that would spread the word the best in my community? So it helps you to think a little more creatively if there's like an actual dollar amount sitting there looking at you It helps you to prioritize marketing and then I do think there are so many things you can do for marketing That don't cost anything. And when you're starting out, I would absolutely focus on all of those. Very often when photographers think about marketing, they think about Facebook ads and Google ads. I'm not really sure why, but that is like the number one place people go. And then they stop there and they can't think of anything else, but there are probably 120 other ways to market that don't have to do with paid ads. I would not recommend paid ads right off the bat. They're really expensive. If you don't know what you're doing and you set them up wrong, all that money is just going to go down the drain. So I'd recommend starting with the things that are more natural. and you want to work with your strengths. That's another piece of this puzzle. So we're all very different, right? Temperament wise. I'm really extroverted. I love networking events. I love big groups. I love going to the Chamber of Commerce and walking into a networking meeting, knowing nobody. I don't know why, but that's just, It's so exciting to me. That's my nightmare. Like your nightmare? Total

Raymond Hatfield: 1:16:30

nightmare. Yeah. Sounds horrible.

Rachael Boer: 1:16:33

Yes. Other people would rather like rip their toenails out than do that. So you don't have to fight against that. If you know that that's not your jam, that's not where you're going to be spending your time and your money and energy. You're going to be doing other things, maybe like blogging, building a really great photography blog on your website full of really great articles that are stuffed with really good keywords that are going to attract people to your site. And you don't have to leave the house. and that doesn't cost anything either. So there are lots of choices we can make about how to market. And I would go with what feels natural to you, what feels good, what feels easy, and what feels fun. Because if you're choosing to do things that you hate every day, you're just sabotaging your own potential. One reason we run our own business is we want freedom. We want to be able to make our own choices. So why? Make yourself do things that you hate. Um, and so, I think if we can creatively work with our strengths rather than against them, that's another thing that really helps as you're getting started. Later on when you have the budget for it, you can outsource all the things that you hate. That's also a great option.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:17:33

Is like going to Chamber of Commerce meetings, going to networking events, you got started?

Rachael Boer: 1:17:39

Yeah, I will say probably if I could narrow my success down to one thing, one strategy, it would just be building relationships and connections where I live, in my community. And I've always been comfortable with that. I enjoy that. And so that's, that's my go to. I have always been a part of the Chamber of Commerce. I will go to other networking events. Like there'll be women in networking nights, or, in fact, I have one tomorrow. It's a, Local networking event and it's just professionals from all walks of life getting together for some hors d'oeuvres and wine and we just mingle and we share business cards and we just talk and you never know. That's what's fun about it for me. You never know who you're going to run into that might be an amazing connection for you or for them. I mean, I've met plenty of people that I've ended up hiring for myself or recommended to a friend. we're all helping each other and it's this great, feeling to kind of, You're building another business up. They're recommending people to you and they're building your business. and you're sharing just ideas and, kind of brainstorming together with them. So networking would be my number one go to if I don't have a ton of money, but I want to get started finding those free networking events around town. And if there aren't any, make your own, you know, if you're an extrovert, you love it. Set up taco Tuesday and be like, hey, let's do a networking taco Tuesday at this restaurant and just put it out there on Facebook Say anybody can come bring business cards. Let's network people will show up people want this and a lot of people like me Enjoy it so you can always create your own thing. If you can't find something

Raymond Hatfield: 1:19:02

always up for a good talker Tuesday, right? So just to clarify going to these networking events. Are you trying to build relationships with other? Vendors at that time or just meeting other potential customers?

Rachael Boer: 1:19:15

Anybody, anybody, because I feel like everybody at that event, whatever event it is, everybody is either my ideal client or they know someone who is right. And I'm not typically trying to sell directly to people at a networking event. That can feel kind of sleazy. I'd be annoyed if they were doing it to me, like, Hey. Do you need your gutters cleaned? You know, I'd be like, okay, back off, buddy, you know, but I think if you can approach it with just sharing excitedly a little bit about what you do. One tip I have is I bring an album to these networking events. I'll create a little eight by eight album and it'll be, not just one family session. It'll be more like a portfolio because it has all different kinds of images that I've taken. So there's some newborns and some seniors and some weddings or whatever. So I can show off the breadth of my work. And then if people say, so what do you do? You're a photographer. And then I'll just pull the album out of my bag. This is what I do. It makes it easier because then they're looking at something tangible, it's a nice, thick, sturdy album. It feels good. It looks good. And as I'm talking about what I do and sharing my excitement and my passion, they're seeing that I actually know what I'm doing. You know, Oh, this work is really pretty. Oh, this is great. They start thinking, Oh, you know, my daughter just had a baby. Maybe do you do gift certificates? You know, and they start thinking like. How could I, get in on this? or, Hey, you know, some of my clients have mentioned to me, let's say they do interior design, right? Some of my clients have mentioned to me, they have these big empty walls and they want art, but they want something local or they want something custom of their family. Do you do that? Or, you know, you just never know where the conversation is going to go next. And that's kind of the

Raymond Hatfield: 1:20:41

fun part. That is the fun part. So, Did you go into these knowing that you wanted to get into, weddings or did you go into them thinking I'll shoot whatever and then you developed your priority out of the fact?

Rachael Boer: 1:20:54

Yeah, I went in knowing, went into photography knowing I wanted to photograph people. I was not interested in anything but people. So I really, I never take a landscape image. I don't take a food or architecture image. Street photography is not my thing. Pets, I don't even like pets. I will shoot generally any human subject I'm good with. and so knowing that that was just what I was most interested in, It became portraits and weddings just naturally evolved from that. And over time, like I said, as I've stepped back a little bit more from weddings, I'll do the occasional wedding, but I don't want to focus on it. I've got five kids now and my Saturdays are very busy. I don't have time to, you know, 14 hours at a wedding. So it's moved more into headshots and portraits. That's work that can be done during the day while my kids are in school. So again, that flexibility of this career where you can just take it wherever. You want to at any time. That's one thing I really love about it. Of course.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:21:41

so let's maybe, help me brainstorm here. Let's come up with an idea for listeners right now. So I want to take your idea of this, little eight by eight album, right? Where you, had different things that you photographed. Like, let's figure out how, how do we start building this? do we just start taking like every session? Are we taking our favorite photo? And. Yeah.

Rachael Boer: 1:22:02

I love that idea. I think in this album, you want to have, your best work. I would rather that you choose fewer images that are really, really your best work, really stunning than to have an album that's big, but full of like. That's so stunning images, right? So less is more. so even if the album is only 10, 10 spreads, let's say, and on each page, you have one or two photos. you could get that album done with 20 images and you're good to go. So I think choose your best. I like to say, don't repeat the same face. In the album, so make sure you're showing variety because if you show me an album and it's really only the same two people over and over again, I'm going to start to think you've only photographed two people. and maybe you have at this point, that's okay, but how can you go out and get some more models? And it might be asking friends, asking family, asking the dog walker that you see go by your house every day. Hey, I'm looking to build my portfolio. I'm a new photographer. Do you know of anybody that would be willing to do a 30 minute session for me? And, in exchange, they get some images and I get something to add to my portfolio. So there's no shame in, kind of building up that portfolio for free at the beginning. Yeah. just cause you need to have something to show for anyone to trust you to hire you.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:23:08

Of course. When I had first moved out to Indiana, I had to take photos that I took of my buddy's wedding, like at his wedding, and put that into my website just to show that, like, I've been to a wedding before, I promise, you know, like, here are some photos. so, let's just make it easy, we'll say ten spreads, right? Sure. so in the beginning, this can be multiple different genres, this can be families, babies, weddings, portraits, headshots, all these things. And then, if we have an area in which we're lacking, we reach out to friends, family, anybody who we know. They don't have to be an actual paid client. We can just ask them to get in front of the camera.

Rachael Boer: 1:23:46

Absolutely. Okay. And I would do that to this day. You know, there's a real stigma against shooting for free, especially once you get more established. Sure. Never shoot for free. But I think there's Very good reasons to shoot for free sometimes. And for me, if I was trying to build a new area of my portfolio, if I decided, you know what, I do want to work with pets, but I have zero pets in my portfolio. I'd probably be reaching out to everybody I know that has a dog and say, Hey, come on over, you know, and that would just be done strategically to build this. You can't really sell what you don't show. You can't say, Oh, I do maternity and babies, but then only show me architecture. I'm not going to believe you, and I'm not going to trust you. So I think we have to have something to show that we're proud of. before we can get started.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:24:26

You're right. There is stigma about shooting for free. And I am of the same mind of you as, as like, if you got something that you want, but you don't have any of the photos, like just go get it any way that you need to. And if that's free, that's absolutely fine. Okay. so, we're building this album, maybe it's got families, it's got weddings, it's got some headshots in it when we go to these events. Are we trying to show this book to as many people as possible, or only if it comes up? Like, kind of walk me through this networking thing, because this is not an area where I excel at as much as, as well as you do. Yeah, yeah.

Rachael Boer: 1:24:59

No, and that's okay. I think the real key, there's two keys. One, you don't want to come off. Slimy and pushy. No, yeah you i'm sure you are not slimy and pushy too. You don't want to come off like you're not confident either So if someone does ask you or you're wearing a name tag that says photographer right or something if someone says Oh, so you do photography? You do want to have something ready to share or ready to say that you've practiced and you've rehearsed so you feel comfortable So being able to describe, yeah, i'm a photographer. I've got a studio downtown or maybe You I've got a home studio, whatever, whatever it is. and I focus on photographing families and babies, and I love providing my clients with like tangible art like this and I'll, I'll show them the album and I'll say, you know, everybody these days has 40, 000 digital images on their phone. But when's the last time you actually went back and looked at any of them? Those images are all basically lost the minute that we take them. But if you can print something beautiful for you to keep from this experience, that album is going to last for, it's going to last longer than you and me. your kids are going to love that. Your grandkids are going to love that. That's what I love providing for my clients. So it's like a little elevator pitch, but it's very conversational and very natural, and they're holding the product at that moment. So it really brings home what I'm saying. So I think coming off as excited and confident about what you do without sidling up to somebody and being like, Hey, you need some portraits. you want to show interest in others as well. And people will reciprocate that to you. And then when they do be ready, that's what I would say. That was great.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:26:27

how important are our business cards? How important are, I know this is like the minutiae, but like,

Rachael Boer: 1:26:33

you've got to have some way for people to, find you after the event. So I've been a business card. Yeah, it's old, old school, but it works. People do the fancy ones where it's like, here, tap your phone on my phone and this digital thing will pop up. That's fine. If you want to go techie, that's totally fine. And, um, I think the key is not giving away business cards. It's getting business cards because you can give them away all day But there's no guarantee that that's not going to get lost in the bottom of a bag Dropped in the trash dropped on the floor and then that person has no you don't have control anymore of that interaction But if I can get their business card, in fact I just did a networking event about a week and a half ago, and I collected about 45 business cards, and I kept them all in a little, little box, and immediately when I got home from the event, I sat down and I put them all into a spreadsheet, so I have all that information, and I made notes about the ones I could remember. You know, oh, mentioned that they might want a family portrait, mentioned they need a headshot, right? So I put those in, and those are the people I'm going to reach out to and call first, because they implied they might want my services. Some of them don't need my services right now, but you know, it's a great connection to have. So I'm going to keep that list and I also always ask people if, they'd be okay going on my mailing list. So then I'm able to send them out emails and updates about my studio, Hey, you know, I'm now looking, for a headshot marathon coming up or whatever it is. And that's just a way that I can then be in control of like sort of staying in touch with those contacts. So I think it's about collecting cards more than it is about giving them out. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:27:53

you're absolutely right. And, and being able to take control of that communication seems much more, proactive than trying to give away as many cards as you can and just hope for the best.

Rachael Boer: 1:28:03

Yeah. People are busy, you know, you can't blame them, but

Raymond Hatfield: 1:28:06

yeah. You got to make yourself busy trying to get those people in front of your camera. Okay. I get it. That's good. So, what about we talked about getting some clients, let's kind of talk about like that, marketing 201 there, and maybe talk about marketing, after we've had some clients, so either marketing to past clients, or using our list, you know, you mentioned the email list there, what are some ways in which we can use our clients to get them back in front of the camera?

Rachael Boer: 1:28:31

That's a really great question. marketing is a little bit like a snowball, so it can be hard at the beginning to get the momentum to get that snowball rolling down the hill, but once it starts rolling, it's picking up more snow all by itself and it's getting bigger and bigger all by itself and you don't have to exert very much force at all. And I think that's how it is with marketing. A lot of the stuff that we talk about doing, whether it's, sending out emails, or doing your social media, or blogging, or all of those things that we can be doing, networking, all that. It can be hard at the beginning, because you can be like, well, okay, I did it, and nothing came out of it, you know? and it can be hard to make yourself go back for that next push. But if you just keep pushing that snowball, maybe from as many angles as you can, It will start to pick up speed because for each client that you work with, they have a network of friends and family who are going to see those images. I love selling tangible artwork. For one thing, it becomes a marketing tool in their hands. They're taking that album to work. I can't tell you how many times a client has said, Oh yeah, I reached out to you because Sandra at work brought in her newborn album to the office and we were all oohing and aahing over it and I had to reach out to you. So Sandra becomes my marketing. assistant, and she's out there spreading the good word about me. I had somebody, it was a UPS worker actually, who contacted me and said, I was delivering a package to a family. And when they opened the door, their family portrait was right in the entryway. And I asked them who did it. So you never know who's going to see your work and inquire about it. And so that's where that snowball effect came in. I didn't necessarily have access to those. additional people, but my clients did, right? So the more clients we photograph, the more that snowball will kind of roll. Not that you can ever fully give up, but it gets easier. It gets easier.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:30:12

Are you providing some sort of incentive? Are you asking your clients to share your name? Cause that can be a hard thing too, to ask for help. it almost can feel like a weakness, right? I don't have enough. Clients, can you help me get clients is, I guess that's how I always internalized it, but like, do you do any sort of, like, print credits, or I've seen other photographers do that, do you do anything like that to encourage your clients to share?

Rachael Boer: 1:30:34

That's a great question, and I think that, that mindset shift is a, it's, an important question, I don't see it as a, as a feeling of weakness. If I say to a client, Hey, I'm thrilled you guys are happy. I love how these turned out too. Thank you so much for the privilege of doing these. my business relies on word of mouth, so if you know of anybody else who might love portraits like this, would you let them know about me? That feels very much, it's very natural in the flow of conversation. Yeah, and it feels like I'm just saying, Hey, I'm glad you're happy. Is there anyone else that you know that wants to be this happy? You know, um, get that. And I think people understand that they know small business. They know that we're all working hard to get clients and that each one, is a cost, to our business. And so they're usually more than happy to spread the word and to help out. Now I don't do an official referral program right now. I do send people a little thank you card and some kind of little gift in the mail. If they refer someone to me, So if, a new client comes in and I'll say, can you tell me how you heard about me? And they say, Oh, the Smith family, they're my neighbors. They said, I have to come over here for family portraits. I will then send the Smith family a little handwritten. Thank you. No, thank you so much for recommending me to your neighbors. That means a ton. here's a little gift to say thank you. And in there I'll put, usually it's a gift card. Cause that's easy to mail just a little gift card to say thank you. And I will either give them a gift card to somewhere that I know that they like. If I've been in their home, I've scoped around like, Hmm, where are their furnishings from? Where are their kids clothes from? Like, I'm kind of being a little bit of a sleuth. Not in a creepy way, but just noticing where they shop. Or if they mention, online, they might say, We're going to our favorite brunch spot today, right? Then I'm like, Oh, that's their favorite brunch spot. So I'll send them a gift card to that place. And it just feels like more personal, I think, than a print credit would, you know? And I want it to really feel like, Something unique and special and customized to them, which, a free 8x10 doesn't have that feel. So for me, I would go the handwritten card and smuggled card

Raymond Hatfield: 1:32:20

route. Yeah. We are coming to the end of our time here. And I know that you are, like, you have the experience, right? You've been in business for a long time. You've done this. If you had to tell the Rachel who her sister just said, maybe you should start this business, right? Yeah. If you had to tell her one thing, what would that be?

Rachael Boer: 1:32:40

That's a great question. the voice inside your head will always say, but there are better photographers out there than me. Why would they come to me? There are better photographers out there, and that will probably constantly play on a loop. And that may be true. There probably are better photographers out there than me and you in our city, right? Why would they come to me? Because I can provide them with an experience. and I can give them a feeling that they can't get with anyone else. Maybe I'm delusional in saying that, but, but I really believe strongly in the quality of the experience that I can give people. that is the top of my list of what's important. Image quality is important, but it's not as important. What's important is how they feel throughout and about the whole interaction. So when they, Go away and they're done and they paid their final invoice and we go our separate ways. I want them to think back on that entire experience with warm, fuzzy, happy memories. I want them to feel really great about their choice and I want them to be excited to share it with other people. If I've done that. My business will be okay because that is something that not everybody is focused on providing. Not everybody can provide. And that's something that is going to spur my business on to the next level and the next level and the next level. Because especially in this day and age, people want to feel connected and cared about. They want to feel like Someone took the time to really see them and to really work with them and give them exactly what they want, nothing more, nothing less, and to make them happy. And if I do that, it's all going to come out in the wash. It's all going to work out in the end. So I just try to keep my focus on client experience. And the rest will fall into place.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:34:17

Perfect. That is wonderful. Rachel, now that we are at the end of our time here, I know that listeners are thinking to themselves, this all sounds great. She obviously knows what she's talking about. Where can listeners find out more about you, your photography, and what it is that you do for photographers online?

Rachael Boer: 1:34:31

Yeah, I think the easiest place to send you for kind of a one stop shop for everything is just rachelbohr. com. My name is spelled a little funny, it's R A C H A E L, and then the last name is B O E R. But if you can get that right, rachelbohr. com, you're there. And that's where you're gonna find, I have a lot of educational courses for photographers, I have an academy. With basically everything you need to know to run a photography business step by step in little micro modules, so it's not overwhelming i've got a template library full of all kinds of canva templates and photoshop templates So if you need to make something for your business rather than starting from scratch You just pick up a template drop your images in and it even has the professional wording in there ready to go So just makes everything easier And I offer coaching as well. So all that is over at Rachelboer.com

Raymond Hatfield: 1:35:16

right, so now that you have a portfolio what's next you got to get in front of people So here we have SEO specialist for photographers, Connor Wahlberg here, Connor is going to teach you the importance of incorporating location based keywords naturally within blog content so that you can enhance your local SEO, making it easier for you to be found online. Connor talks about many effective strategies for obtaining valuable backlinks through guest posting and podcast appearances to boost your websites. SEO. He's in going to tell you how to utilize Google's search console to monitor your website's performance and improve site usability so that potential clients don't get lost and leave because they can't find the info that they're looking for from you. Connor, my first question for you is when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Connor Walberg: 1:36:06

Oh, this is a great question. So I would say that I could go way back to when I was a little kid and I had this like really, really low quality point and shoot film camera that I found in our house and I was taking pictures of my stuffed animals and

Raymond Hatfield: 1:36:24

I was there too,

Connor Walberg: 1:36:25

processed. And I was setting them up like a studio. But then I would say I didn't have a whole lot of interest. I wasn't like driven to be a photographer until. Roughly my senior year of high school and my friends and I were hitting some big bike jumps that we'd built and we dug them out and I was using one of the early digital cameras. It had like a, I'd probably say it was a two second shutter lag, maybe a three second shutter lag from when I hit the button. And we're only in the air off these jumps for like a half a second. So I would, I would track them perfectly and time it out. And I was getting like, I was getting the shot. It was lined up. Obviously there's a whole lot more to photography than just the timing of getting the person in mid air. But my friend was becoming a professional skier at the time. And he said to me, like, Connor, you need to get a pro camera so you can take pictures of me skiing and help me grow my career. And I was like, yeah, right. Like, I'm going to go home and spend money on that. That's 500 probably. So,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:37:29

Wouldn't that be nice, yeah.

Connor Walberg: 1:37:30

wouldn't that be nice? So I went home and. it stayed in my head because I loved taking photos. I was having a good time with it. And I was like, well, maybe I should get a pro camera today. And I ordered one that night. And it was like a thousand dollars and just started shooting. It just became exactly what I wanted to do. And mainly action sports, because I viewed it as a way to tie together my interests. So I could go explore the backcountry on my skis. I could go ski off cliffs and ride my bike to remote locations and take pictures of my friends doing it as well. And that way I could combine my passions with my passion. With just together, all my passions, photography, plus all the tech that comes with photography. Cause I've always been tech obsessed. But it just kind of brought it all together.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:38:17

I remember, uh, one of my first digital cameras it was similar. Every time you'd press the shutter button, it'd be like a 2 or 3 second delay. And I remember we got it right before the 4th of July. So, like, I didn't understand the shutter lag at all. But I was so excited to finally be able to, like, capture photos of fireworks. Right digitally so that I could then put them on a computer I didn't get a single photo of a firework that year because of that lag It's like the worst feeling in the entire world. So Totally get that congratulations to you for actually figuring out that timing and getting everything in the air

Connor Walberg: 1:38:47

was amazing. That's when I knew I had a skill.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:38:50

Yeah so tell me how that progressed did you go to school for photography like when did you know that That it was going to be bigger than just i'm going to take a few photos of my friends

Connor Walberg: 1:38:59

So I took a year off after high school and I was like, I'll take a year off and then decide if I want to go to college or where I want to go to college. And during that year, I just skied like crazy and shot photos every single day, all day, I would carry my camera with and shoot everything. Everything I saw, I was probably knocking out 500 pictures a day and just always shooting. So it kind of Took off just because I was so passionate about it and interested and I wasn't like necessarily landing clients or selling anything yet, but I had this vision that I would just that I would start submitting to magazines and they would publish my images. And then a friend of my mom's had a house she was listing to sell. So I went and shot photos for her and, and that kind of got me into real estate photography as well. But I almost feel like it just was, like, meant to be at that time of my life. Yeah. So after that year off, I moved from where I was living to Vail. It was like a half hour away, which is ski resort here in Colorado. And I lived there and I'm surrounded by professional skiers and all I want to do is ski and shoot photos. So it just, it just worked together perfectly.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:40:10

When you got into photography, like, as you said, like the first, point and shoot, it's not that great, you know, film cameras, not that great. What was the learning curve of photography for you? Because that's a big part of it. If you want to start taking professional quality photos, you got to know how to use the camera. But you also said that you're pretty technically minded. So was learning photography difficult for you or, was there anything specifically that you struggled with?

Connor Walberg: 1:40:32

I feel like at that point in time, because I was, so I ended up being a bellman for a little bit just to make ends meet while I was doing this. But at that point in time, it was really just having fun with my camera and I wasn't putting pressure on trying to get things perfect. And with, action sports, that can be tough because you have athletes there that are essentially putting their life on the line. Like my friend would maybe be doing a backflip off of a 40 foot cliff and it's like, well, I don't want to miss the shot. And occasionally I would miss the shot and he'd be like, no. So like there's that pressure, but really I just kind of started figuring it out. I was reading blogs online, um, and different articles and the advantage of learning with digital gear. Like I was saying, shooting 500 shots a day or a thousand shots a day, I was just constantly experimenting. And I really loved experimenting with strobes. So I had several like SB 800 and 600 strobes for my Nikon. And I was running them all wirelessly. And just I was shooting all the time in my parents basement. I remember setting up a shot where I had flashes set up and I had the camera set up and I did 12 exposures of me in different parts of the room. Like laying on couch and all this stuff and I merged it into one photo of me just all over the room. And it was just fun for me to just experiment with that. So there wasn't a lot of pressure because I wasn't necessarily taking on a lot of clients at this. So I had an advantage in that I just got to have fun with it.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:42:04

And that is, that's the goal, right? everybody wants to have fun with photography. So, uh, I always feel like the slower that you can make, uh, the journey of learning photography, the better you're going to be, because like you said, you're not up against that time pressure or yeah, just pressure of having to perform in a certain way. Like you can just mess around and have some fun with it. So that's, that's great. I want to know when did it change for you? Because today you're not focused fully on photography, but you got something else going on. So tell me where you're at today.

Connor Walberg: 1:42:32

Okay. So the path meandered all over the place. I was shooting extreme sports. I had images published in a lot of major publications for skiing, for mountain biking. Like outside magazines, skiing powder, had images published in Japan, for all these magazines and that was great, but it didn't necessarily pay the bills. So I also started shooting stock for Getty images, and then I also shot real estate for a lot of realtors in the Vail Valley and it's, houses are very expensive there. So they're willing to pay a high rate to have a photographer get really good shots to list the property. But from there. I would say I kept getting more and more into backcountry skiing and that sort of stuff. And eventually I actually had some, some back issues. And I think it was from carrying my heavy backpack and dropping off cliffs with camera gear. I had a rule for a while that I wouldn't go off anything bigger than 40 feet with my camera in my back. Cause I didn't want to break the camera if landed wrong.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:43:31

Only 40 feet. I love how you capped it at 40 feet. Not 6 feet. 40 feet. Okay,

Connor Walberg: 1:43:37

That was my rule. Because honestly, if the snow is right, and if it's deep enough, you can fall head first off a 30 to 40 foot cliff and you'll be fine.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:43:45

That sounds horrible!

Connor Walberg: 1:43:47

It sounds crazy, but you, you wouldn't even like, you might be rattled, shaken up a little bit sore, but you'll be fine. so I started having some back issues and then I also wanted to make something, I guess, kind of tangible cause I was always in the digital space with photos. So I started a clothing company, a skate clothing company. And from that. I progressed into selling long boards, like skate long boards that I was having people design and running design contests, through this, though, and this is where I sag into what I do now. I learned SEO, so I tried every marketing channel out there there. I even read a book called traction and it had something like 16 marketing channels or 17 marketing channels that it talked about that anyone can take and I experimented with all 17 selling T shirts. but I also was kind of becoming tired of the consumerism mindset and just always needing more. And it just felt wasteful in some ways. So I learned SEO. I created this article for my brand. It was called concrete coast. And I went from one to two visitors a day to my website to over 200 a day with one article. And yeah, which was a significant jump. And people were actually ordering some stuff after I did this article because it was on point for my brand. So I quickly saw the power of SEO and how it can work when you're not working. It can bring, once you get it set up, right, you get it dialed. You're not paying money on it like ads to run it. And it's just bringing, customers at that point in your way. So I started my own SEO company called single track. And I started working with a lot of different companies in all kinds of areas. My biggest client was actually a company that printed t shirts for me for my t shirt brand.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:45:38

Full circle.

Connor Walberg: 1:45:39

full circle.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:45:40

That's awesome. but today, we're talking specifically, obviously to photographers, you educate photographers, you were a photographer, like you have this knowledge, right? So I'm excited about this because we are, I don't even know how to describe this, but I feel like we're entering a post social media. era, which I know sounds weird, but social media has changed so much from what it was before to what it is now that it almost doesn't feel like it's the same thing that it once was. People are, once again, Not only leaving their blogs to go to social media, but now people are leaving social media to go back to blogging so that they can share stuff and kind of do it on their own terms. And for a lot of new photographers, that's exciting because now we know that it's possible to put out exactly what it is that we want and possibly get some traction without having to deal with, the quote unquote algorithms of social media. But. SEO is also one of those things that's like kind of ever changing. So I want to kind of preface this by saying like, this is 2024, right? And all the things that we're going to be talking about today might not work in 10 years, but like today it's working. and these are things that we can be doing. is that fair to say?

Connor Walberg: 1:46:45

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, things are always changing. The core of SEO, the core principle behind it should stay the same

Raymond Hatfield: 1:46:53

Perfect. there may be a number of people listening have no idea what SEO is, right? can you give me a brief overview of what is SEO why is it important for us? Photographers? optimization,

Connor Walberg: 1:47:07

which is a very technical way of saying it's that you're getting your content found online. You're getting your website found through places like Google, Bing, Yahoo, duck, duck, Go whatever's out there. But it's setting our site up right so that people find us. So for photographers, we have a really strong advantage when it comes to SEO. there's different types of SEO. There's like national SEO or worldwide SEO. And then there's local SEO. Let's say you wanted to release a brand new electric car. You're selling it to the whole world or the whole country, whatever. That's national SEO. You're competing with every electric car company and everybody talking about electric cars in the country or the world with local SEO. Google is pinning us against other photographers that serve the same niche as we do. So if you're a senior portrait photographer and you live in Denver, Colorado, and you're in a specific region in Denver, a specific neighborhood, and there's two other senior portrait photographers, And you all get your SEO right, you're going to be competing against each other to show up for that first spot to attract anybody in your area and people are searching for things like this, like senior portrait photographer near me on Google. What you want is to show up for that result and you want to be near the top because people generally click near the top of the results.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:48:31

Right, that's me. I can't remember the last time I went to, uh, page two of Google, but now, am I wrong? It's just kind of like an endless scroll, but regardless, it's still kind of the same thing, right? So it's, uh, you're not going to go very far down that list.

Connor Walberg: 1:48:43

what we're, we're doing is we're making our website speak to the search engines so they know where they should rank us. Where we're to be. So, unless that goes away, search engines go away. I believe the idea of search. We're always going to need to search for things in some way, whether it's with our voice or video or our is searching for us, but there has to be a catalog of this information. And somehow that catalog has to be sorted so that we get the right answers to our questions, or we get the right photographer that we're looking for. Because at the end of the day, if Google stops giving the best possible results to people, people will stop going to Google.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:49:23

So they're incentivized to give the best results.

Connor Walberg: 1:49:25

they have to, because that's why people are searching there, because they need to find an answer to the question. If the result doesn't match what they're looking for there. And that keeps happening. And we are very quick. I think people are very quick to just flip on tech or flip on brands and companies. It's like 1, 1 strike 2 strikes. Like, I'm done with that. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:49:47

you know, it's funny I don't know Like I'm not like really into video games or anything, but when the Xbox one came out, I don't even know what Xbox we're up to now, but when the Xbox one came out, if you searched Google for Xbox one, it would show you images of like the newest Xbox that came out. But if you searched being the Microsoft owned. Company, which also owns Microsoft or Xbox. If you search Xbox one, it would show you photos of the first Xbox. So clearly there was a disconnect there and what people were searching for and what, they were given. And I think very, very quickly was abandoned by a lot of people. So, I'm right there with you. So with, those listening, we're new photographers, you know, we're beginners we maybe we've only spent time on social media We haven't even explored a website. Everybody says if you want to get your name out there got to be on Instagram a tech, you know, whatever it is for those who maybe Either have privacy concerns or whatever their issue is with social media and they do want to start Focusing on a website and creating a blog Where should we start? I know that you created a little list of, things that, new photographers need to know about SEO. where do we start?

Connor Walberg: 1:50:51

So the very first thing that I would set up if you're doing this is Google my business and what Google my

Raymond Hatfield: 1:50:57

Even before a website?

Connor Walberg: 1:50:58

Okay, so you don't have a website yet. Okay,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:51:01

gotcha. Okay.

Connor Walberg: 1:51:01

So I would have, I would, go ahead and make a website because you need to have a portfolio. once you have a nice looking website and everything, I think Google My Business is probably going to be your most powerful point with regards to getting your SEO started. And it provides a place where clients can review you, where you can share photos as well. But Google My Business is indexed with the maps. On Google. So if you search Google Maps, or even if you type in a search, usually the first results, which it's kind of changing right now, but Google's going through a very turbulent time this last month and a half, as they're updating a lot, but you'll see the map. And then you see the photographers that are near you. And that's Google my business. That's the thing you need to have set up to rank for that.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:51:48

is there anything else that we need to know about Google My Business or are we ready for what is the next tip?

Connor Walberg: 1:51:54

Okay. So for Google, my business, these there's actually 2 tips here, 1st, dial in your description, because this will contain keywords that will help Google better understand what you do and where you're based. So the description gives you, I think it's 750 characters that you can write about your business. I would recommend filling it out. Make it interesting and enticing because think if this is somebody's first impression of you, they want to be enticed to work with you and you want to attract the right clients your way, the people who you want to work with as well. So dial this in by making it enticing and also including what would be like your main keyword. So your main keyword, there's kind of a quick formula for this and it's where are you based? So let's say I'm Littleton, Littleton, Colorado or something. What's your niche? And then the word photographer. So location, niche, photographer. So I would say Littleton, senior portrait photographer.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:52:54

Okay, and that needs to be in the description.

Connor Walberg: 1:52:56

yes, I would incorporate that into the description. the other places to incorporate it onto your homepage as the main tag.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:53:03

So, coming up with a description like These things are hard, right? Like, I could say that I'm an Indianapolis wedding photographer because I, like, I shoot weddings. So, like, what more should I be adding into a description?

Connor Walberg: 1:53:14

So one way to do this would be to jump into AI, like chat, GPT, something like that, and type in a prompt, just asking it to create a description that is no longer than 750 characters hits on these main points about your business. one thing to note here is generally we want to write about the experience that the person's going to get, not about what we care about. So a lot of photographers will jump into like, I have an. Amazing flash system and I have the newest and latest gear and people are not They just look at your photos and if they like them, they'll hire you for that reason. they don't care if you shot with the latest Canon or Nikon. So typing it into chat, GPT and running a prompt and you can work back and forth, but then go ahead and adjust it. So it's your voice. That's something I, I think needs to happen with AI in general. If you're going to use it as a tool, especially for SEO, you still need to incorporate your real world experience into it. And this is something Google does talk about.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:54:16

Uh, what do you mean, how so? How does Google talk about it?

Connor Walberg: 1:54:18

So the experts who run Google's search division, they have guidelines for creating helpful content. And this is their main focus right now is content should be helpful to people. So they're trying to get their algorithm to actually understand what's helpful and what isn't. Which is a very big job if you think about it. This is the whole world of information. So there's four factors that they talk about now. Your website should demonstrate experience. So it's E E A T. Experience, expertise, authority, and trust. So anything you make or do, if it contributes to these factors to Google, will help you with SEO.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:54:58

could you, break down, what is the difference between experience and expertise?

Connor Walberg: 1:55:02

So experience is where, from my understanding, when you're writing, let's say you're writing an article and you actually share a real life story of something that happened. Experience was added after AI became a big deal in the last couple of years. So it's really AI can talk about stuff, but it's never had the experience. It's just pulling data off the internet.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:55:25

Right, right. Okay. Oh, that's interesting. yeah, because that's, obviously a big thing, right? Because if AI is kind of an amalgamation of everything that's like ever been written before. So if we're just using AI to write our website, essentially, it's really not going to stand out in any meaningful way. So adding in our own experiences is how we're going to do that.

Connor Walberg: 1:55:46

Yes. Essentially. It's like, I would say it's the personal touch.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:55:49

Wow. Okay. So, help me figure out here then like maybe what are some things that we should be using AI for? And maybe what are some things that like we definitely shouldn't be using AI for, for helping us with SEO?

Connor Walberg: 1:56:01

So it really depends on your strengths as a writer. if you're not a very competent writer or you just don't like writing,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:56:08

That's me. Yeah. Hate it.

Connor Walberg: 1:56:10

there's, nothing wrong with that. You can jump into chat, GPT or whatever tool is available at this time and have it write the article that you want. Generally, I would recommend having it write an outline and then writing it yourself because it's going to sound like your voice. But if Chad, GPT writes an article for you, don't just take that and immediately just dump it on your website. This is what people are doing. anytime I think of marketing and efforts, people are taking to improve something or beat the competition. If it's low lying fruit and it's super fast and easy, it's probably not going to work because everybody's doing it. So if you're just typing in a bunch of prompts and you're like, I published 400 articles on my site today from chat GPT, probably not going to do anything for your site. It might actually harm your site because Google is going to see that and say, where did these 400 articles come from every day for 5 days? On this individual's business, and it's going yeah, it's going to know that that's not real. So what I'd rather see would be to write a meaningful article that actually helps your client gives them information. They would like to know, not just fluff and talk about it from experience. So, as you're writing through the article, you have your own experiences to apply to it. maybe you can tell a story from a recent shoot. You did this is something is not going to be able to do.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:57:34

Right. That's really interesting to think about. okay. I want to, ask, because while there is a percentage of listeners who will eventually use, photography, like as a business. There's also a number of people who use it like just as a hobby, right? so how can SEO be helpful for just like hobby photographers? is it helpful for them?

Connor Walberg: 1:57:56

generally, it's going to be more for the business side. cause if you're not looking to land other clients, if you're just doing it for fun, then I don't see a gain from getting more exposure unless that's just what you want is you just want more people to see what you do. In which case going to be taking a different approach because you're not trying to land a local client. You're just trying to show off what you do. So it's, that's the It's almost like the difference between being an influencer versus being if you were going that path.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:58:24

Uh huh. Uh huh. Okay. So like, uh, influencer and like a business owner, like two different things like that.

Connor Walberg: 1:58:29

I might have messed it all up with my direction of the influencer, but my whole point is I guess, an entertainer rather than an influencer. If you're a hobbyist and you're not going to really gain anything from SEO, unless you're just trying to get more people to see your work.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:58:43

Okay, I gotcha. I gotcha. what's next? So we got our website, right? We kind of came up with a description for our website. We created a Google My Business listing Google My Business is going to help us stay local. Is that right?

Connor Walberg: 1:58:55

Yes. Yes. So going to help us show up for local searches. And something about Google My Business is we can either submit our home address and have it show up in the listings or our studio address, whatever we have. But we don't want to do that, we don't have to. generally Google My Business can rank you a little higher if you have a physical location. Which is unfortunate because most photographers are going on location, but there's no issue. If you don't want to list your location, you can now select an area on the map that you serve.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:59:27

Oh,

Connor Walberg: 1:59:27

you can say I serve this suburb and this suburb. And now you're only competing with the photographers in those suburbs. And you might show up out of that area a little bit, but generally that's where you're going to show up in results for.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:59:41

Gotcha. Okay. So, what's next after we get up Google, my business listing set up.

Connor Walberg: 1:59:45

Okay, so you have this set up request reviews with any clients that you've had in the past. this will help with that trust factor for Google and the authority factor and the expertise. Honestly, all of those, I believe it helps with because when we get reviews, we show people that we deliver results. We show Google that we deliver results. We also show Google that we're in business and we're actually. Working still, because if you think about the Internet, there's probably a lot of sites and photographer sites that are just sitting there for photographers that just kind of keep paying the bills to run the site. But they're not really doing it right now. So Google doesn't want to put those guys at the top of the ranks because it doesn't really make sense to you. So we want to show them that we're current and we want to show our customers that they can trust us as well. Our potential clients. I mean,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:00:35

So by getting reviews, will help us rank higher in Google just because it shows activity. Oh,

Connor Walberg: 2:00:47

tiny bit that we can say, because you might ask, like, yeah, couldn't we just ask all our friends leave reviews, which that's possible. Right?

Raymond Hatfield: 2:00:56

it's possible.

Connor Walberg: 2:00:57

But generally, they look at every little factor as an additional factor of trust. Or authority.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:01:04

Okay. do you have any tips for getting reviews? Because I know that this can be a, a scary thing for new photographers. What about like people like yourself, you know, when you were doing action sports, are you reaching out to like the athlete, the person participating, or is it like a larger organization?

Connor Walberg: 2:01:18

So for action sports photography, I wouldn't generally be focused on the local SEO because I was shooting for kind of national clients and magazines and that sort of stuff. So it's not the best Avenue, but let's say you do shoot newborn photography or weddings or senior portraits, anything where you are on location and it's generally a location near you is where Google my business is going to work best. Everything other than that. That is where you need to focus on your website to get it to rank for key terms because it's not going to show up in the map.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:01:53

Hmm. Does that segue us into step four? Is it key terms? Is that what it is? Did I guess it right?

Connor Walberg: 2:01:59

That's, one of the step four, step four would be picking your main focus niche for your website. So yes, key terms. So like we talked about location, niche photographer, this is a big one because most photographers, you go to their site, especially when they're starting out and they have 16 portfolios, all showcasing different styles and skills. They might even have one of their pet in their backyard

Raymond Hatfield: 2:02:25

Yeah, I did.

Connor Walberg: 2:02:26

yeah. I had these. This is the way we get into it, right? We're experimenting and dabbling in everywhere. And a lot of photographers don't want a niche because they don't want to limit themselves. So like, if I make my site all about one thing, then I can't shoot these other things. People aren't going to hire me for this. But in truth, You can still shoot the other things and anybody that you talk to, especially when you're starting out, you're probably mostly word of mouth if they're like, Hey, can you shoot this? Can you shoot real estate? I know you're a wedding photographer. Can you shoot my house for this listing? And you're like, sure, right? but that doesn't need to be a big focus on your website. If that's not the direction you want to take your business. So I think it's important to know. Which direction you want to take your business, what niche you actually want to have. And then we need to make our website speak to that niche. So if you dial it in and have one niche, which is the easiest way to do this, to start ranking well, because you're only competing against other photographers in your area. With that niche, then we want to have that keyword like Littleton, senior portrait photographer, and that needs to be the H1 tag on the homepage and only one H1 tag per page. What an H1 tag is, is a heading tag. And it tells Google, this is the most, this is what this page is about. This is the key content.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:03:36

Ah, okay. So when it comes to, coming up with keywords, right? Like, should we only be trying to rank one? I guess keywords is a hard thing to, like, figure out, right? there are tools that, help you figure out what are the keywords so that you can start ranking for these things. But I think one area that I got into trouble when I had first started was trying to rank for like 19 different things, like for my homepage, was that the wrong approach? Or how should I be finding different keywords to try to rank for?

Connor Walberg: 2:04:06

So if you're just starting out, you don't need to do a whole lot of keyword research for the local SEO side. The best way to do this to get going is simply that one keyword. Photographer or, um, location, niche photographer that each page on your site. Ideally you want to target one keyword.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:04:24

So then, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, right? I have a homepage. Now I want to write a blog. Obviously, the point of this blog is to get more traffic to my website. In my head, I'm thinking, okay, location, niche. Photographer right there. I'm going to put a Indianapolis wedding photographer in every single blog. Is that going to, I don't know, cannibalize results for my homepage and other blog posts, or should I be doing something different?

Connor Walberg: 2:04:50

it is. And you use the correct word. So they call that cannibalization

Raymond Hatfield: 2:04:54

Oh, perfect.

Connor Walberg: 2:04:55

and it's where you have the same keyword repeated on multiple. You have a lot of content that's trying to compete for the same keyword. So you're about pages, Indianapolis. I think he said wedding photographer, maybe, but you're about pages, your homepages, your contact page. You have another article that you wrote that's really in depth that has the same keyword. And Google says, well, which one should I rank for this keyword? And then my opinion, from what I've seen, Google says, I'm not going to rank any of these because none of them are really targeting this keyword. decide which one's the best one to go with. So our homepage, if we're going to have one niche needs to have that keyword. And that's the only page that targets that keyword on our whole site. Then if we build, if we wanted to have two niches. We could have a second page that's like our homepage that targets the other niche that's also on our site. So you can target multiple niches. And I think that's a big relief for a lot of people that I talk to. They're like, wait, but I shoot this and this. do pets and senior portraits. It's like, okay, well, you can have both of those. And you, generally want your homepage to target one because the homepage is going to be the strongest page on your website because of something called backlinks. This is where other sites link back to you. And this is how Google crawls the web. And hopefully I'm not getting too deep into this right now, but

Raymond Hatfield: 2:06:16

Just in case, let's slow down just a little bit. Google's crawling the web. We got links to our website. Who's linking to our website?

Connor Walberg: 2:06:23

So other websites, like let's say we work with a vendor or something and they want to refer people to us, they might have a link on their site that comes to our website.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:06:33

And that's good.

Connor Walberg: 2:06:34

That's great because that's how Google crawls the web. That when I say crawl, they also call it the spider. And think of Google as a giant, set of files in a filing cabinet. And if they read one file and it tells them to go read another file, they jump over to the other one and they read that file and it go to another file, it's all connected like a spider web and links are how Google finds our site and how it decides if our site should have more trust or authority. Based on the site that's linking to us.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:07:05

So the more sites that we can get linking to our site, the more Google sees us as an authority and can trust us and will be willing to rank us higher in search results.

Connor Walberg: 2:07:16

Yes, assuming that these are quality websites. So, people will try to game the system and they'll go and they'll buy links. Or, so definitely never buy links. get real links. So, iview links is something actually somebody would want to click. So if you get a link from a website where somebody wants to click to go to your site because they're like, you are what they're looking for based on what they're reading on that site, that's a great link. And if it's relevant, so like we don't want to be on the, like, some, food blog website. linking to our website when we're just, when we're shooting senior portraits or something, that's not even related and Google connects the dots here. So if the other site is about, is a vendor and they're related to you, like they're, maybe a location venue for a wedding photographer and they link back to you. It sees that this is a wedding location and you are a wedding photographer and Google connects those dots.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:08:11

then can we do the reverse of that? will it help us to link out to other vendors to start building those links?

Connor Walberg: 2:08:18

We can, but it generally, we want links to come to us, but we don't necessarily want them to go out to the other. It one sided is better because it's like, Hey, this, site's awesome. I view it like a giant popularity contest. And it's like, Hey, guy's awesome. But if, it's a bunch of people together in a room and they all raise their hands and say, they're all awesome. Then it's kind of like, which one's the awesome.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:08:42

awesome. Right, right. Okay. I.

Connor Walberg: 2:08:45

And yeah, so the idea with links is We want those people on that site to want to click through to our site. And if we have a link right back to them, it's kind of like neutral. Google doesn't, value it as highly.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:08:58

Gotcha, okay. So, we got the website up, we got the Google My Business listing, set up. We got, some reviews coming in. And we picked our main niche. What's next?

Connor Walberg: 2:09:08

Okay. So this was going to be links was the next one. So

Raymond Hatfield: 2:09:12

Oh, perfect. Already got it.

Connor Walberg: 2:09:15

related businesses, vendors, family that, that has a actual connection. So relevance is what I was talking about earlier, to grow links on our site. And one way we can do this is by offering to guest posts on their website. So a guest post is where we write like a blog article. another great way is if we go on a podcast, Then we probably get a link back from that podcast. there's a lot of different ways to gain links, but it's really, you have to think about it from most people get hung up on thinking about themselves. What's in it for me? Like I want a link. How do I get a link? Give me links. It's kind of like thinking, give me money and I'm not anything. I just want money. It's like, what can I do for them? Now to get them to link to me. So if you create a great piece of content that they can put on their site and the author bio links to you, or maybe there's some text in it that links to you naturally, and it makes sense, then you're helping them out. They have new content to share with their readers and visitors. And you have a link to your site. Now

Raymond Hatfield: 2:10:16

I see. So, reaching out to other venues, so let's say, as a wedding photographer, you could reach out to a venue. Say, um, hey, can I Write a blog on your website, something helpful to their potential brides because that's helpful to them and in the hopes that they then link your website at the bottom or wherever and that tells Google to come back to you and that you build that relevant. Does it matter if people are like actually clicking that link or it only matters if there's a connection there? Does anybody know?

Connor Walberg: 2:10:48

it can help Google can see that people click links. So it can help if people are clicking it, that's going to be a more quality link, but at the same time, having a link on an authoritative site or a good site. That Google already sees as good that comes to you, even if people aren't clicking on it, Google will crawl the site, it'll see that link and it'll jump over to your site. I kind think that like you're collecting your SEO in a bucket, like collecting rain in a bucket. And each time Google's crawl, Google's always running around the internet trying to find things. Each time it stumbles over your site again. I think it was like, Oh, it's another drop in the bucket and it's like starting to fill up. So it's like this, this site's starting to become more important to me because I seeing it. It's like, just like the fact that when we hear about something seven times before we buy it, it's like, Google has to hear it so many times from people that trust to be like, okay, or websites that trust to say, okay, yeah, I trust this site now too.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:11:46

Mm hmm. Okay. Makes sense. what's the next step after we get some links and do some outreach?

Connor Walberg: 2:11:51

Okay. So I would set up your Google search console. This is free tool. On Google, if you type in Google search console, and there's a little bit of code that they'll ask you to insert on your website, just to say that, Hey, Google, I own this website. And what this is going to do is it's going to track what people are searching to get to your website. It's going to track how many people are going to your website. It's going to tell you how many times you're showing up in search results and what your position is that you're showing up in. Because if we're in those top 10 positions, we're getting clicks and below that we don't really get much. but this is just your way of tracking all your efforts because doing this work and not seeing any results for a long time, because maybe your SEO will take three months. Maybe it'll take six months. Maybe it'll take a year to get to where it's really doing well and where it's just bringing clients in. That first year can be kind of like painful to watch because you're like, why am I doing all this? Nothing's happening yet. But from what I've seen most people, and even for me, I lose patience in those first three to six months. And then all of a sudden results start happening and I see them. And I'm like, Oh, wow. Why wasn't I continuing my efforts all those months? Cause now I am getting results. And so I'll do like waves of SEO sometimes because of that. But this is your way of knowing if you're starting to get to show up in things. If Google's indexing your site for keywords.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:13:18

Ah. That was a hard thing for me. I know that, one of my first years shooting weddings, like you were saying, I got a lot of, bookings just based on referrals, right? Friends of my wife, friends of family and whatnot. To the point to where I booked like a good amount I booked like 20 weddings that year or something and I was so I thought I was in a groove I was like I got this figured out, you know, I'm brand new to this got it figured out No worries that I didn't like market at all that year because I was so busy like shooting weddings and whatnot And then that the following year was extremely difficult because I didn't do any marketing the year before I didn't set up anything. So that next year is when I had to figure out like, uh, how do I figure this out? and I had to go into like marketing mode hard. And, and that was the, the learning, a little bit of SEO myself and trying to figure out those things. and one thing that I'll say is that it seemed like. Putting in the time for SEO, even though it was hard up front to try to learn all these things and physically do all these things with very little results to show immediately, once it did start to take off. It really smoothed out the peaks and the valleys of the roller coaster and Made it a much easier ride while there are of course still other things to do I would say that it was probably one of the most helpful things that I did for my website and on top of that Trying to get those trying to do that outreach get those links I formed genuine relationships with, with other vendors. so not only did it help me on an SEO side, but also it helped me from a referral side as well. So I can totally attest to that. That's great. That's great. so what's next after search console, which by the way, great tip. I don't think a lot of people know that, that we can, that Google will give us the information about where we're ranking and what we're ranking for. that's wonderful. I appreciate that.

Connor Walberg: 2:15:01

Yes, that one's completely free too. That's the best part, right?

Raymond Hatfield: 2:15:04

Of course. Yeah.

Connor Walberg: 2:15:05

just there. It's a tool that you can just use right now. the next one I was going to say, and I'm jumping back to the site. I didn't put these in a specific order necessarily. It's mostly in an order, but this last one is your homepage made a description. The made a description is what shows up when people search on Google. So they see the title of an article, and that's usually the blue part or the headline up top. And then they see the description below. Now, they call this an indirect factor of SEO because according to Google, they don't look at the keywords here and say, like, oh, I'm going to rank this higher because the key word is. in the Meta Description. So instead, so we still want to treat it like they do factor it that way, but what we want to do is almost make our Meta Description click baity. We want people to click. We want them to click our link and go to our site, because when people click links on Google, That does influence the results, because it shows that people typed in a certain term, they skipped the top three and they clicked on your link. Why did they click on your link? Probably because you wrote a better description that was more accurate to what they were looking for, more enticing. So we have roughly, I believe it's 160 characters now, to write a meta description. You can do up to like 320, but then you have the little dots after it.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:16:27

Nobody likes the little

Connor Walberg: 2:16:28

no one likes the little dots. Cause then you're like, what's going on? I don't know. I'm mixed on it though. Sometimes I'm like, maybe they want to learn what's going on after those little dots, they have to click, but generally I try to make it fit in those 160 characters. And I want people to say like. Oh, this is the photographer for me because this is, enticing. This is interesting. This little description, because we have, like one shot at a first impression and we're competing against all these other websites, if ours stands out to that person, they will want to click on it.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:16:58

Do you have a formula for what our meta description should include? If it's not necessarily our description?

Connor Walberg: 2:17:06

Not necessarily a formula because I don't want to say, like, have a call to action, like, learn more or something, but I would say, so I talked about the keywords and it's not an, it's an indirect factor of SEO, but if you incorporate the keyword that you want to rank for right in the title and also in the description, Google bolds, those. If that's the keyword somebody types in. So whenever we type in a text, you can do this on any search on Google. When you type in the text, the search results, any results in the headline or in the title or the meta description that have that text that we typed in is going to instantly be bolded. People are more likely to click on bolded things.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:17:48

Huh. I don't think I've ever noticed that. I don't think I've ever specifically looked for that, but that's a, that's a great tip. Okay. So try to include things that people are searching for because. It'll be bolded and then they'll be more, uh, apt to click on that. Okay. how many tips do we got left?

Connor Walberg: 2:18:02

I think there, those were all in there. And just shuffled around. and then just the last one I wanted to say was just make your website. This is not an SEO tip. This is just a first impressions tip right first impression thing. Make it beautiful, make it speak to what you do and your style and the results your clients get. and one kind of quick way to do that is to. Through your images, and this goes right to our editing, even if we can edit our images in a way where they are cohesive. Whether it's the similar tonality through all of them in a gallery or something like that, where it's, connected, it looks that much more polished. It's like you consistently get this is your style. You have a style and people want to hire someone who has a style, so they know what they're going to get, whether your site's very bright website and your photos, just they're very high key. They're bright, beautiful photos, or maybe you have a more polished Subtle color palette as part of your photography, or maybe it's very vibrant and punchy, try and figure out a style for yourself. And this will set you apart from, I mean, honestly, like, 95 percent of people who have websites, maybe more of photographers, like, just having that little thing that you do, whether it's just a quick filter, you drop in. Lightroom or whatever it is that just makes your images more tonally connected.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:19:28

that could be a hard thing to figure out in and of itself, but, um, like you said, I mean, it's like SEO. It's a long game. You know, you got to get it figured out and you got to spend some time to get to that point. I got one question because I can already, foresee either the emails or the messages that are going to be coming in. what about, image descriptions? I've heard a lot about this. Should we be worried about this? Is this something that we don't need to worry about? where do we stand on that?

Connor Walberg: 2:19:52

So are you referring to the alt text specifically?

Raymond Hatfield: 2:19:55

Yeah, yeah, alt text. That's the phrase that I was looking for. I somehow got cannibalized, but not, this one right

Connor Walberg: 2:20:01

there well, some some tools, I think Squarespace will call it image description. Other sites say alt text other sites. like 3 or 4 that I keep hearing. so it'd be nice if they would make that all uniform, but the, the alt text is technically an accessibility. So if somebody is visiting your site and they're visually impaired, they can hover over the image and it's the text that will show up and their screen reader will read that image to tell them what it is. So, from the standpoint of first off, we want to make our sites accessible and we want to make it so everybody can use them. So we want our images to have all text. It's just a, they call it the best practices of SEO in general, but just having all text on your images. We want the image to be, the alt text to be different between images, and we want it to be accurate describing what's going on in the image. Now, SEOs love to game this, and for a while, you could enter your keyword in several of your images on your homepage, and it would help you rank.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:21:06

Oh. Weird.

Connor Walberg: 2:21:07

And it's possible that still helps a little bit, though Google claims it does not. They say just use it for accessibility. So what I like to do is any page or article that I'm writing, if I have an image that I can incorporate the keyword in a natural way, I will incorporate it. Otherwise, I'm not going to try and force it. I'm just going to be accurate in my descriptions. And this is just me saying to Google, Hey, I put the time and effort in to follow your standards. And I also made my site accessible.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:21:34

Okay, so, we'll just stick with the wedding photographer example here. If we have a photo of a flower girl, I don't know, standing like walking down the aisle or whatever, don't put in Indianapolis wedding photographer captures flower girl walking down the aisle. But if you have a couple who may be, they're standing in front of the Indianapolis skyline. You could somehow put in like a, couple on their wedding day, getting. Photos taken in front of Indianapolis skyline. that make sense? Yeah.

Connor Walberg: 2:22:01

That's it. And now you're hitting that Indianapolis term, which helps, even if it's not the full keyword, like that's there. and it's just think of it as a, another signal to Google that this is about Indianapolis photographer. Right, but it just needs that 1 keyword to just kind of start connecting dots, but don't go in and stuff your keyword all over your alt text. it's not actually going to help anymore.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:22:26

uh, another side question here, and I know that we are running out of time, so I will make this one quick. I technically live like 40 minutes outside of Indianapolis, right? But I knew that for me, I wanted to shoot weddings in Indianapolis. However, that's not like where I live. So I guess, two part question, how important is it that like my address is not technically in Indianapolis? But then the other thing is that, what about writing potential like blog posts, would it help to write blog posts or would it hurt us to say like, a suburb of Indian, let's just say, Fishers, Indiana, wedding photographer, Greenfield, Indiana, wedding photographer, Avon, Indiana, wedding photographer, would those things signal to Google that it is more local or that it just is kind of all over the place and would it end up hurting us? Mm

Connor Walberg: 2:23:13

where generally a photographer will put links in their footer and then they will essentially duplicate their homepage, but then modify the text on it and make it cater to a different town or a different suburb. These will not affect where you show up in the map results. Which is your Google, my business, but it will affect where you show up in results. Just standard search results. it can make a difference to do that generally. So with Google, my business, that's going to be the place the lower hanging fruit get it going and that people are going to click on a lot. I would suggest selecting the area. And including Indianapolis, they say, as long as it's within a 2 hour drive of you, you can select that area,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:23:56

So we should

Connor Walberg: 2:23:57

the bigger you get, the more photographers you're competing with.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:24:01

Good point. Good point. Okay. so, I remember at least like when I was, not being in SEO so much, especially with, like, with the Google, my business and whatnot. I feel like there wasn't as much importance. Placed on it, say 2011, 2012 or so as there is today. I was always taught, write a bunch of blog posts about, best places to get married in and then start listing all the suburbs. Today does Google my business, like just by having the Google my business and selecting your area, kind of remove the need to start creating additional content specifically for outside suburbs.

Connor Walberg: 2:24:36

No. So I would still continue to create content, but maybe, like, you were saying 10 best photo shoot locations around or family photo shoot locations around. This is just going to reiterate to Google that this is the area you serve. And if you want open it up and serve another area, Google, my business isn't going to, it shows results that are relevant to your location. If you now are trying to target a location that's outside of that, or that's on the far end of it or something, creating articles on your website will rank. They can rank for that area and get people to your site as well. So it's almost like there's. Two sides of SEO. There's the Google, my business, local side, which you can only handle a certain way and only handles a certain area. And then there's your website side, which you can market anywhere. And I've seen photographers with, who are ranking well for Google, my business, because they have a studio in LA or something. And then they have Another, they also shoot family portraits or something. So it's like a family portrait studio in LA. And then in Nashville, Tennessee, they have, a vacation home and they go there and they also shoot there. So they created a second homepage or a second page on their site that caters to Nashville family portraits. And that's not going to show up in the map packs unless they set up a second Google, my business location, which you can only do if you actually can register that second location. So. Now that page will show up in the results though.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:26:06

Okay. Connor, there was a lot here today. There was a lot going on, especially for new photographers, even though I feel like you did a really good job breaking it down and, helping us try to figure it out. for those who are still thinking this sounds a bit difficult, give us some encouragement. what is the first thing we should do, and, what should we pay attention to? what should we not?

Connor Walberg: 2:26:25

The simplest steps and the simplest way to do this all is essentially no nonsense and just caring about making good stuff for people. So your first step, obviously Google my business, set that up after you have a website, your website, make it look good and speak to people, make it about the people. and put what they need to know on your website. Those are your first steps of SEO. just speak to people. Make it for people.'cause Google's emphasis is helpful. Content. Content that helps people get what they need and what they're looking for. And if you're the answer for that and Google knows that too, then they're gonna rank you so. Focus on real world activities that would grow any brand like reaching out to people to guest posts would grow any brand because it's going to get more people to learn about your brand. So any PR related type of stuff, just getting your name out. There is going to help grow your brand. Social media is signals for SEO. That's going to grow your brand. If you're continuing to post on social media, you don't have to post all the time, but just do it. Google sees that you're active there. everything's a factor that you do online. So rather than getting in the weeds about it or worrying if you're doing it right or not, just start creating what you want to create and what answers your people's questions, what they can expect from their shoot, what it's like working with you. If you convey all of this to people, then you're off to a great start for SEO.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:27:48

I couldn't have asked for a better answer than that. That was great. Connor. for those who do want to learn more about SEO and go deeper down this wild rabbit hole, where can we find you online?

Connor Walberg: 2:27:58

All right, so that's where I've branched to from my SEO business. I teach photographer's SEO and I run a membership. my website is conorwalberg. com. It's C O N N O R W A L B E R G. And then you'll see up top the button for membership. I run a membership where you can go in. It has a complete course. That is way easier than maybe the way we covered stuff today, but it's, it's all bite size, organized videos that are about three minutes long with actions you can take right now to get your site on the right path and get all of your efforts in order. So it makes it very, very simple to get started with SEO. Plus I'm in there answering everybody's questions and running live Q and a calls. So if you're hearing all this and you're like, wow, this is just chaos. I don't know where to begin. Hop in there and check it out. And for anybody that references this podcast specifically, I'm happy to, do a free website audit for you. I'll record a video for your site and I'll, I'll tell you what your first actions are, what you need to do. I'll use my tools to crawl just like Google does and see your website. And I'll say, Hey, you need one H one tag on this page. And this is what it should say. So I'll get you off to the right start.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:29:10

Next up is my interview with Sandra Cohn. Sandra's been running a successful family photography portrait business for decades and today she's going to teach you, business and marketing skills that are used outside of the photography industry to help you build a stronger business, which is just essential for attracting consistent clients and becoming profitable. Sandra also shares the importance of understanding your worth and implementing pricing strategies to ensure long term sustainability in your photography career. When did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Sandra Coan: 2:29:45

I'd been doing it for a while before that actually happened, so I was, I never thought I was gonna be a photographer. I didn't even know, being a photographer was like a real job that somebody could have or like, you know, a career. I was a kindergarten teacher. I was fresh outta graduate school, had a teaching certificate, had my first job teaching, and just couldn't make a living as a teacher. I actually qualified for food stamps my first year. And every single teacher I worked with at the school that I was at had a second job and most teachers were waiting tables or cocktailing or something like that after school and, teaching kindergarten is hard, like five year olds, man, it'll take you down. And so I just didn't have the energy for that. I was exhausted after school. And, around that same time, one of my best friends, Was pregnant with her first baby and it was the nineties. Right. So like any of the books had just put out that incredible photo of Debbie more pregnant. And we were all like, Ooh, and I was like, let's do a photo like that for you. And, cause I'd always done photography on the side just for fun. And so we did, and she loved it. And she was the one that was like, you know, maybe you should do this, like offer maternity photos on the side to make some extra money instead of getting a waitressing job or something like that. And I was like, Ooh, that's a great idea. So that's how I started. I like took that one picture and I turned it into a postcard and put it all over the place. And then people started to call. I did that for about. Three years, almost four years, just taking clients on the side, trying to figure it out kind of like my little side hustle before I, it started to dawn on me that, Oh, maybe this could be a job. And when I got to the point that I was making. The same money from photography that I was making as a teacher, which, you know, wasn't that hard. And it wasn't that big of a stretch, but when I got to that point, I was like, wait a second, I think I could actually make more doing this and have a lot more freedom, a lot more flexibility. So I quit my job and decided to give photography a go. But yeah, it was like three or four years into doing it before I was like, wait a second, this might be a job. I might be able to do this.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:32:05

Why? Why is that? You said that it didn't take long before you had to, you know, replace your teaching income. What was it that made you, I don't know, like wait so long before you could almost validate yourself that you could do it?

Sandra Coan: 2:32:17

Yeah. Right. I think I just, it didn't feel like a real job. I don't know. Like I kind of grew up with people are teachers or people are nurses. You know, I didn't know anyone in my life who was an artist or professional artist, or is it that was even possible? It seems like you had to have like a real job, you know, I don't know. It's just like, there was this like weird mental block around it. And I honestly, you know, if we're going there, when I started doing it full time and it helped that I was starting to meet other photographers and see that people could do it. I 100 percent believed it could be like a real job, real job until I was like 10 years in.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:32:58

Wow. I know. I know. That's like a mindset thing right there. There's this moment that like you weren't even thinking about photography. It was just kind of this thing that you did, but like you were a teacher, right? And then you took this maternity photo and not only you loved it so much, but your fellow teacher also loved it so much that she encouraged you to do this. And then. You did that. You're like, yes, I will go do that. But it still wasn't another 10 years. So like, where does that come from? Because I know so many people listening right now, new photographers, the demographics for this podcast skew towards, older photographer. It's not the typical podcast listener, you know, the 18 to 25 or whatever. It's like 28 to 35. It's those who are in a career. It's those who have a job. Yeah. But they also love photography. So that sounds to me kind of like where you were at. So that's exactly

Sandra Coan: 2:33:51

where I was. I was 27. I was like, I was your ideal listener. You know, and it's kind of, I think the springboard, maybe even for our conversation further, because I think a lot of my not believing that this could be a real job was rooted. It was a confidence thing. It was rooted. I think it a lot in my own imposter syndrome and my beliefs around what it meant to be a photographer. I always felt I felt like a fake. I felt like I was pretending like it was dress up. And I think a part of that was. I didn't ever study photography. I didn't go to photography school. You know, I had done everything right. Right. Like I graduated high school and I got my BA degree and then I went back to graduate school and I got a, you know, advanced degree and I did all the things that you're supposed to do to check the boxes to validate yourself in your career and be good at your career. And then suddenly I was doing work that I didn't have any validation for that. I hadn't gone to school for that. I had no formal training. And I think looking back that that was a lot of. Of those feelings of, I don't actually know what I'm doing. I'm just getting lucky and sooner or later, everybody's going to figure it out. And then I'm going to have to go back to getting a real job. So I think that that was a huge part of it for me.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:35:15

You were also doing like business this whole time, right? Like you did it with the intention of going into business, not necessarily as a hobby, but like with the intention of replacing your teaching income.

Sandra Coan: 2:35:24

Yeah, but I also didn't think of it as, so

Raymond Hatfield: 2:35:30

What does that look like? That must've been incredibly hard to be running a business, but not considered business, but also like you need the, you know, replace your income. But then you didn't feel like you were supposed to be in that role. So what was that

Sandra Coan: 2:35:42

like? It was really hard. It was really stressful. And, you know, I made a lot of mistakes, obviously, because of it. So I was literally just winging it. I was shocked every time somebody paid me, just like floored. I was way undercharging. That was part of a problem. You know, I say, Oh, I felt like a fraud. I didn't know what I was doing. You know, part of that was true. I didn't know what I was doing. When I first started, I would shoot on manual mode, you know, all the time. I think I have a natural eye. Like, I know what is pretty to me. I know it's what I like. And so when the circumstance when situations were perfect, I could create that somehow I would just pull it out of the ether. And so sometimes I would get those, but it certainly wasn't consistent. I live and work in Seattle, Washington. We don't often have. Perfect conditions. And so when the conditions weren't perfect, I really, really, really struggled. So I started this journey in 1999 and that's when I was like, okay, I'm going to start my little side hustle business in 2006. So I'd gotten married in the meantime, and in 2006, I had twins. And so then it got extra hard because suddenly I was also full time stay at home mom. to two babies at the same time, then in 2007, I was like, no, this is dumb. I'm going to quit. This isn't sustainable. I can't, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just winging it. So it was definitely, there was a lot of like, there was a lot of emotions in the beginning. They weren't always good ones. It was hard. It

Raymond Hatfield: 2:37:14

was a struggle. It's now been two. years since I shot my last wedding. And I got out because, during COVID, I realized I was like, not super sad that like weddings got canceled. And I was like, Oh, that, that tells me exactly what I need to know, I think. And I got out of it, but there was like this, sigh of like, now I don't have to, deal with the constantly finding clients. Now I don't have to deal with these pricing issues. Now I don't have to deal with the customer service and all these things to be going through all of that. And to have brand new babies at home and to like be making almost no money what turned it around for you? Because you're still doing this today. Like, how did you go from there to here?

Sandra Coan: 2:37:55

Yeah, desperation. You know how like a lot of people talk about Oh, I started my photography business because I just am so in love with photography. And I was just like, so I was like, no, I was freaking desperate. And, you know, in the very beginning, I needed to make money to supplement my teaching income. So there was that level of desperation. For her starting and then I got to that point where I was like, this sucks, I'm just going to quit. I can't do this anymore. The thing that stopped me from quitting was. The alternative, because my family, we needed money, we needed a second income. So I either was going to make this photography thing actually work, or I was going to have to quit and get that real job, and what, and I knew that that real job would entail a schedule that was set for me, you know, me leaving my kids every day. And I didn't want that either. You know, at that point I had these two babies that I kind of really wanted to hang out with, you know, I just really wanted to have that experience. And so that's when it changed. So I was like, okay, Sandra Cohn. If you're going to do this, if this is going to be a real job that we need to figure it out. And so that means no more winging it, no more feeling like you don't know what you're doing, none of it. And so I started at that point, the first thing I did was started studying business and. I went outside the photography industry to do it. Like I didn't want to learn from somebody about how to price an eight by 10 or how to run an in person sales session or whatever. Like I wanted business foundations. I wanted to learn how to build a brand. I wanted to learn how to market myself. I wanted to learn how to write sales copy, you know, like I went there. So I studied, studied, studied. I read books. I took online classes and I was doing this all in between. So I started with that and it started to work like, that's the amazing thing. Like nobody is born knowing how to market your business, but once you like, learn it and make, you figure it out, it's like, oh, okay. It's actually, there's a formula to it and you do it and it works. And so I was like, okay, then I, you know, once I started getting consistent clients in and I was really building out this brand, then I worked on my pricing and started getting my pricing to where I was profitable. And then I tackled lighting because that was my big thing is like living and working in Seattle. I moved into a studio about that same time. Cause I had been working in clients homes or in my own home. And I was like, that's not sustainable anymore with twins. I want to have a regular schedule. I want people to come to me and all that kind of stuff. So I learned lighting. And that really is the thing that changed everything. Because once you are in control of your own light, you're unstoppable. You're not, you know, your schedule isn't dictated by the weather, your schedule isn't dictated by the time of year, or, You know, what's going on outside. So I could just build a schedule around what worked for me. And, I learned lighting in 2011. I spent the year doing that. I just really nailing it down and I developed my style. Like, cause I didn't want. flash photography or studio photography to look like flash photography or studio photography. I really wanted to create that natural light look, which was hard to find information on that at the time. So I kind of made it up this like system that worked for me and that was really when it took off. 2011 I learned that 2012 was my first six figure year. Ever. And, you know, the combination of the business and the lighting, it just started to grow and it's grown ever since. And here we are today. The rest is history.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:41:50

Here we are today. The rest is history for, everybody else to learn. Right? Like that's what's so exciting. I wonder to myself, how many great photographers have given up because maybe they weren't able to figure it out, you know? Yeah. Oh my

Sandra Coan: 2:42:04

God. So many.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:42:06

Exactly. Yeah. So many. And like we're unable now to like learn from them because they weren't able to reach a level that they had wanted. So for you to have done that and then got here and now you're sharing your information with everybody is incredible. You help keep this podcast going and help all the listeners as well. So I thank you for that. I'm glad that it all worked out, but I want to go back to, to the struggle. So we're here today, but let's mentally go back to that struggle, right? Yes. Deep breaths. Yeah, we don't want to go back to that place, but we're going to right now. The struggle to me sounds like it was just for the most part, a lack of knowledge, right? But when we get into photography, oftentimes we don't know what we don't know. So it's hard to know that we have a lack of knowledge because that's just inherently how it works, right? We're not, as you said, we're not going to get a degree. in most cases, people aren't going to photography school. We have to kind of figure these things out on our own. So, um, tell me, like, kind of at its worst, where was the business at and where were you at in this time?

Sandra Coan: 2:43:07

The worst? I got to probably my lowest when I didn't have the confidence to charge what I needed to charge. So I was, really, really undercharged. I was exhausted because I had two babies and I had worked on the business part of it to the point where I was getting clients. But again, I wasn't profitable. I didn't understand that. And I was so scared to raise my prices because I was like, I'm going to lose clients, but then I wasn't. But I remember this one weekend where I was doing like five shoots a day and. I was traveling all over the place in between those. So I'd go to a park for one, go to the studio for one, go to somebody's home for one, like all over the place. And I was just like physically, mentally, emotionally exhausted. And that was very much a low point for me. And I think, yeah, so it's see how, like I say, like my journey is a journey is the story of desperation because I was like, No, I can't do that anymore. People need to come to me and I need to, you know, that's the lighting piece, when that started to click.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:44:12

And it sounds to me like you have very much the same mindset of a real job that the only way that you can make more money is to do more shoots. Yes. But it wasn't until you figured out, it sounds to me, that once you figured out a way around that, maybe through business, was there some sort of foundational business piece that you learned that taught you maybe more shoots does not necessarily equal more money, that there's other ways to make more money that made it easier for you?

Sandra Coan: 2:44:39

Yes and no. I mean, I kind of knew that, right? Like you have to, make sure you're profitable charging, you know, like I knew that in theory. For me, it really was a confidence issue. And I actually see this a lot now in the photographers that I mentor because it's scary to raise your prices. And especially when you're already suffering with confidence with imposter syndrome, there's this like voice in your head. That's like, if you raise your prices, you're going to have a zero people and then where will you be? And so it's one thing to know something in theory, and it's another thing to do it in practice. For me, I guess I had to wait until I was just like, I couldn't. Do it the way I was doing it anymore to take that leap. I didn't have, I also didn't have any mentors or community or anything to go. Like, I think back now, especially as an educator in the space and then like, Oh, if only I had somebody to hold my hand and tell me it was going to be okay and, trust the process and, show me the formulas. I think things could have been a lot different. I wasted a lot of years on doing things that weren't serving me because I was too scared to make the changes that I needed to make. I think that's super common. Don't you? I mean. 100%.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:45:53

In fact, personally in my own life, like I resonate with that. There's been so many times where I've wanted to either go further or make a change that would essentially grow the business, but it is scary. It's scary when you have to, as you said, raise your prices because you don't know if people aren't going to, you know. It's scary when you think about hiring help because now somebody else is relying on the income that you're making. And, as you know, as a freelancer, sometimes, there's good months and there's bad months. That's a difficult thing. So it's definitely a challenge. But at the same time, I think we know that like being alone, being the solopreneur, like probably isn't the best for us. It's really good to have somebody who we can bounce ideas off of and not. Yeah. Not if we have to physically be alone. That's one thing. But like to mentally be alone is an entirely different thing. And that's, you know, why I love the idea of having a community have somebody who you can, bounce ideas off of. So what did that look like for you? Yeah, I didn't. I

Sandra Coan: 2:46:51

didn't

Raymond Hatfield: 2:46:51

know that.

Sandra Coan: 2:46:52

That's why it was such a hot mess. I do think it's essential for new photographers and you know, back to your point, like, so much of what we have to do is scary. I tell the photographers I mentor all the time. I say being in business for yourself is like being in therapy. It forces you to rub up against things that make you uncomfortable to do things that are triggering or scary. Like you're constantly. But in this position of having to really challenge yourself and, you can do that on your own and have success at some point. I mean, I did it. It took me 10 years or whatever, you know, um, or, that's where having that sense of community is, so valuable though, because then when you're, doing that when you're in those scary moments, at least you have support and somebody there to hold your hand. And I think that in some ways, it's easier for photographers to find that now. Maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but you know, when I was doing all of this, I'm about to age myself, but we didn't have Facebook. We didn't have Instagram. We didn't have the ease of, being connected to a larger group, like unless you knew a group of local photographers or people in your community that you could lean on, you really didn't have opportunity to have that. So I think it was harder in some ways easier because the, of course the dark side of having social media and all of that is this whole comparison thing that we get into and. That can also be really challenging, but from a community standpoint, I think it's, it can be really helpful if you're in the right communities.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:48:35

Well, let's go ahead and talk about that other aspect of comparing ourselves, because how can we not today, you know, it's like, if you want to share your photos online, the first place you're going to do it is social media. If you do that, you're going to see 10, 000 other photographers in the first minute of you scrolling, and you can't help but naturally just kind of compare yourself to them. So, what do you think is the fix for that? Do we avoid it completely, or do we use it to learn where we're actually at in our photography

Sandra Coan: 2:49:05

journey? I advise people to put on emotional blinders. You know, when you see like horses in like a city, like here in New York, whatever they're doing, like horse drawn carriages, and they always have the blinders on the horse and they do that so that the horses don't get spooked by all the things that are going on around him. I think we need to do that for ourselves when we get onto social media, you know, like put on blinders so you can only see what you need to see, but you don't get spooked by all the other stuff going on around you because it's, really easy to, it's really easy to get distracted. And it's hard for you emotionally, but it'll also destroy your business. I think one of the biggest mistakes that I see new photographers make in business is getting caught up in doing what they think they should do. I should be doing this and I should be doing that. And so and so is doing this and so and so is doing that. And I should do that too. And when you do that, it, It takes you off track, I feel like we are visual artists, which means that we have a certain way of seeing the world and capturing the world that only we can do right. Nobody else can see and capture the way that you do. Like, this is your eyes and your expression. And so if you can focus on that and putting your blinders and you focus on that, that is how you start really building your brand, figuring out your signature style, getting really comfortable in you and what you do. And if you don't have those blinders on, that's really hard to do. You can get knocked off course, chasing what you think you should do, chasing the trends, looking around at what other people are doing. And it's bad for your soul. But like I said, it's really bad for your business to do that too.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:50:43

That makes sense from a theoretical standpoint. Right? Yeah, I know. Focus on your journey. Just do that. Eyes on your own

Sandra Coan: 2:50:50

paper.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:50:51

Yeah, exactly. We've been taught that for years. But from a practical standpoint, what does that look like? Does that mean less social media? Does that mean not, you know, checking, Flickr or whatever? Like, did that look like for you? How did you put on those emotional blinders to focus on your own path and not pay attention to the other photographers?

Sandra Coan: 2:51:06

Well, in some ways it was easier for me because I didn't have social media when I was doing that. So I really, it was easy for me just to, Focus. So when I was in this phase, every, it was all about people's websites and we had like Google reader where you could like catalog and read people's blogs and all this stuff. And so I just turned it off and I just decided I wasn't going to look at other people's work and I was just going to focus on my work. And this was happening for me when I was developing my lighting style and, learning that. And so it really helped me hone my signature look. And I have a very strong signature look and a strong brand, I think, because of that, it is a level of discipline. If you're on Instagram and you're on Instagram to promote your business, get on Instagram, focus on your business, you know, look at your posts, what images are you going to share? How are you talking to your clients online? You know, I teach, um, a model marketing approach. That's very client centered. So are you creating client centered marketing? Are you engaging with your clients? Are you talking to them? If that can be a hundred percent of your focus when you're online and on social media, you're going to be a lot better off. If your focus is, I'm going to get in here. I'm going to throw up the picture. I'm going to write like. Hashtag baby feet, hashtag, isn't this cute or whatever. And then just go and spend the next two hours looking at other people's work. You're going to get yourself into some trouble. So yeah, there's a level of discipline to it. You just have to make the choice. I'm putting on my blinders like the city horse. And I'm just going to focus on me, my clients, what I do, my work. And stay in that space. It's hard because we were just saying, well, you also need community, right? So how do you balance putting on the blinders with maintaining a community? And I think that that's where getting into a curated community is really helpful. So I have communities that I run for people in my program. We have, zero gatekeeping rules. Everybody knows that I'm telling them not to fall into the should trap to look. So we're not in those communities to look at other people's work or compare ourselves or try to be like them. We're in those communities to ask questions, to get support, to say things like, Oh, I'm feeling like a loser today or whatever, like this other person's doing this work and it's so beautiful. It's making me feel bad about myself. Like to have those conversations, those honest conversations without getting knocked off course. Does that make sense? It's hard. I mean, I wish I could say like, Oh, it's super easy. You just don't do this. And then you just do this and then you're going to be fine. But it's not, it's

Raymond Hatfield: 2:53:41

not, it's not. One thing I have, learned from also trying to help photographers is that like, there is no one size fits all solution, no, no. And it's hard because it's like some people are, I had a conversation the other day with a photographer who, had decided I'm not going to do any more social media, like it's just not where my brain works. And I was like, yes, that's exactly how I feel. And he had said, like he had done a mentorship with another photographer who's just naturally very good at social media where it doesn't take up much of their brain space. They just post something and then they're good to go. And it connects with, their ideal audience. And he's like, because I can't do that, I don't. Like, it's so hard for me to focus on that. And that, again, I think shows there's more than one way to do literally anything. There's more than a thousand ways to become a photographer. And I think it's our job to figure out, well, how can we help serve other photographers? Oh, yeah. And help them figure out, you know, You know, whether, how they can get helped, how, they can get to where they want to be, because again, I think that that is also a huge element, not only having to learn the camera, the tools, the light, the theory, all of the technical stuff, but also learning where do you want to go. Is this what it is that you want to do? You know, I thought the weddings was what I wanted to do and it was not, so having to do all this kind of in the beginning is a, difficult thing. So that's why it's

Sandra Coan: 2:55:05

like being in therapy. It's not easy. And you're going to learn so much about yourself along the way. There is no way I would be the person that I am now if I hadn't been on this journey of entrepreneurship, because it just, It tries you and it tests you and you have to learn this level of trust in yourself. Like it is a crazy journey. It is not for the faint of heart. Yes. To your point though, I just real quick, like your point about social media too. It's also not the only way, like you were saying, like there's a million different ways to run a business and be successful in a business. And look at your numbers, ask your clients how they found you. My photography clients. I know this because I just ran these numbers because we were just having this conversation in my mentoring group. And I think it was like 74 percent of my contracts where I ask, how did you hear about me? Found me on Google. So they're not even finding me on social media. Oh, wow. So, it makes more sense for my photography studio that I focus on blogging, on SEO, on making sure my website's up, which I do. I don't really even have social media for my photography studio and my clients come from the internet. So maybe social media isn't the answer, like run the numbers for you. If it's not what you're naturally good at, and you're not seeing an ROI on that effort. Then don't do it. There's a lot of people were running very healthy businesses before we had Instagram.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:56:38

Exactly. Exactly. So then, let me ask you this question, cause I've been thinking about this lately. Not that it matters so that we can do anything with it, but it's always fun to kind of think about these things. If you could do it all over again, right. If you could do it the hardest way, humanly possible, like you did, right? Like 10 years, just trudging through it before you found the level of success that you were hoping for. Or if you could start all over and say apprentice under another photographer, do you think that you would have got to where you are today faster? Or it just would have been a different level of success? I

Sandra Coan: 2:57:12

think it would have been a different journey, obviously, but I definitely think it would have been faster 100%. Yeah, there is no anything you want to do. Somebody else has done it before. And there's no for me. Anyway, I feel like It's like deciding to climb up the stairs on my knees because I'm earning it or something. You know, I felt like I had to learn everything myself. I just discover everything myself. I had to, otherwise I was like copying or it wasn't being an integrity or I was cheating in some way or whatever. And it's just what a waste of time, like find somebody that you align with, find somebody who is doing what you want to do. Who's at a level of success that you want and ask for help. And, if they're wanting to help, then awesome. Take advantage of it.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:58:03

Yeah, it's so funny. I, grew up often thinking to myself, like, you know, hearing the stories from my grandparents, like back in my day, that, uh, I sometimes think about the hard challenges that I go through, in those moments where I realize, like, man, this is way harder than I thought that it was. I often think to myself, this is that moment that in the future, my grandkids, I'm going to say, back in my day, I had to do it like this, you know? And, it almost makes it more of a challenge, right? It like, it almost gives you that motivation to keep going rather than giving up. I don't know where I was going with that, but, I'm just trying to think of myself as an old man and it was a very different thing. So, uh,

Sandra Coan: 2:58:40

I mean, what would you do? Like if you could do it all over again and you choose to do it by yourself and figuring it out on your own in isolation by yourself, or find a mentor that you align with and work with them, what would you do?

Raymond Hatfield: 2:58:54

I would, I would definitely seek help. That's always been one of my hard things, the hardest things. I don't know why, but it always felt like, not that it was a weakness, not that asking for help is a weakness, but like asking for help as a sign that like, you just don't know anything. Yeah. I don't know. It's a, it's

Sandra Coan: 2:59:09

weird. Right. And I feel like it's like something that like is, So true among photographers, people don't want to ask for help. They don't want to invest in themselves to get help. I swear to God, people will drop so much money buying a lens after lens after lens. How many damn lenses do you have in your cover that you never use? Okay. I know you're like, but when it comes to like investing in yourself and your education and working with a mentor and doing some of that, people just really have a hard time with it.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:59:43

It's

Sandra Coan: 2:59:43

so

Raymond Hatfield: 2:59:43

funny. Yeah, well, I think that that's changing at least from everything that I've seen, you know, as far as, especially with the pandemic, the pandemic really helped, people to understand the importance and the value of, that education online can be a very viable thing and it can be helpful and that we don't need to be in the same town as somebody else for help, you know, like over the past, uh, I'm totally going to butcher this like 20 years ago, like the amount of people who are meeting online was like 3 percent and everybody's main complaint was that like, that's weird to meet people on the internet, but

Sandra Coan: 3:00:14

now,

Raymond Hatfield: 3:00:16

right now it's, the exact opposite. And now the main complaint against meeting somebody in your own town is there's so many people on earth. How could like, you're guaranteed to find better results on the internet. And I feel like, with. Learning photography. It's like if you're just going to stick to your own town, your options are like a community college and maybe like a local photography club, but because there's 1000 different ways to learn photography, that might not be the right way for you. You know, it might not fit for your schedule. And, learning online has been helpful to so many people, but I feel like we're getting a bit off track. I'm not trying to sell people on on learning online. They understand. I don't either, but

Sandra Coan: 3:00:53

I do think it. Like it is interesting though. And cause I know like that was a block that I had to, when you were like, Oh, I felt like I had to choose the hard way. I had a block where it was like, it made sense for me to invest in gear or an equipment, but like investing like myself or taking a class or getting a mentor. I don't know. I had a block around it. Like I just did everything the hard way. Right. Right. The hardest way humanly possible,

Raymond Hatfield: 3:01:15

of

Sandra Coan: 3:01:15

course.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:01:16

I know.

Sandra Coan: 3:01:17

Between A and B, which looks the most difficult. I'm going that way.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:01:21

Pick the path where Everest is right in, right in the middle of it. No, you got to go right over it. Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. So, then let's talk about kind of the solution, right? Because, we feel this imposter syndrome. We feel this, I don't belong here. And what we've learned is, that could be because we didn't have any formal education. We tried to learn this on our own. We also don't know what we don't know. So we didn't learn the right thing. So just find a place where we can learn the technical side of photography. The other thing is that there's a, it's very lonely, right? And then you can start to second guess yourself. You don't have a place to get all the answers. We understood what that looked like. It looked like burnout for you, you know, having the kids not making enough money. That was very difficult. And now, so if we kind of take all those things and do the opposite of them, we're going to start to find success. So where do we start? Like what does that start to look like? How do we know that we're taking the right courses? Cause there's so many things to learn. What is the solution for lack of a better question? What is the solution to getting over imposter syndrome?

Sandra Coan: 3:02:23

Well, for me personally, I think it's going to be different for everybody, but like I had crippling imposter syndrome. It was bad. And for me, that didn't start to shake until I did start to know the technical stuff, like to know the things to know that I knew what I needed to know when I was good at it. Does that make sense? And again, that took a very long time, because as we established, I took the hard way and I was going to teach myself and do all those good things. But I really do think that there's something to it, you know, just imagine. What it feels like when you are at, you're being paid either at a wedding or a portrait session or whatever you're being paid to do a job to create a certain look that you, your client, you sold your clients that they want and you walk into a situation, you walk into the room and it's terrible lighting or really dark, or you just have a crap day or, the schedule's off and you were supposed to do portraits out at 2 when you had plenty of light, but now you're doing them at 6 and you're losing it like, you know, that feeling of just like, Oh, how am I going to make this work in that stress now? Imagine the feeling of that same situation, but you know exactly what you're going to do. You're like, Oh, this isn't a problem. I know I can do this. I can do this. I can do this. I know I have this. I know I have the skills. I can create that look regardless of the situation. It changes how it just, it changes the stress, right? Like you can feel like the stress falling off of you, but it also changes how you feel about yourself. I always tell people like really confidence really is this bridge in our careers and it's the bridge from dreaming and doing from wanting and having it's the bridge that really connects that and the only way you get to create that bridge of confidence is by learning. The things having the foundations and then knowing that, you know, the things, so like, you know, how to handle a bad lighting situation when you walk in, there's natural light great. You can do that, but if there's not, you can do that too. It's not a big deal. You know, confidently how you're going to pose people, what look you're going for, how to direct people from session to session and from look to look in a moment, you know that there's that confidence. And so learning the technical skills, learning. That so you get that level of confidence, I think is step one. And then step two, I think is validation. And you tell me, you can chime in, like, but you think about this, but you know, when you have the confidence, but to also, there's something to be said for having people you respect, look at your work and be like, no, dang, you are good. This is amazing. You've got this. Wow. You know, I think validation is a huge piece of getting over that, that those feelings of imposter syndrome, at least it was for me. And, there's something to be said for kind of having that seal of approval, like, yeah, you've done this, you're really good at it. Well done. That's what I think. That's the formula.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:05:26

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to add the second part or a third, third part to that. And I think on top of the validation is still like that. if photography is therapy, like you don't go to one session and then you're done, right? Yes. Oh, such a good point. Yeah. Forever. And, I could get a subscription to masterclass and learn how to be president. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to, you know, become a president and like be the best, you still need ongoing support. So on top of gaining the confidence and getting the validation. I think it's also continuing to have, ongoing support, having a place where you can continue to ask those questions when, you know, inevitably something's going to come up. Oh, yeah, that's a great, great point. Yeah. And I gotta say, that reminds me of something that you have going on. Like you have built what I think, sounds to be like one of the best, most comprehensive programs for photographers. So tell me more about this. Like how, how is this going to help photographers who are struggling right now?

Sandra Coan: 3:06:31

Well, thank you. All this stuff that we've been talking about is stuff that I've noticed for years and years and years. In myself, in my community, in my education community, you know, people really struggling, even with the best of intentions, right? They're taking the classes. They're trying to learn things. They're still struggling. They're still struggling. It's still not getting it. I decided that I wanted to create a program for photographers that really did help them on this path to getting over imposter syndrome, to help them build that confidence bridge. And that in order to do that, I needed to have a program that was comprehensive. That, that taught them everything, because like we were saying, there's so much that you just don't know what you don't know. There's so much to that in this business. So that's what I did. I created a program. It's the Sandra Cohn certification program where I teach literally everything A to Z. That like the keys to the kingdom, everything that I've done and learned in my own business, lighting, posing, processing, portfolio curation, website design, what exactly you have to have on your website, how you build a brand, how you market yourself in a competitive industry, like all the things teaching that. And then in addition to just teaching the information. I've also built in a one on one mentoring part of that program and group coaching. So as you work through the stuff, you get on calls with me. We look at your portfolio together. I give you feedback. I give you critique. I give you mentoring, as you're learning it. We have coaching calls with the whole group where we get on and you learn from other people and you hear their struggle, that community piece that we were talking about. So you have a group to lean on a group to learn from and all of that. And then at the end of the program, once you've completed everything, then you have the opportunity to apply for certification and with certification, we evaluate your portfolio, your work, you're graded on a rubric that you get caught, you know, um, access to at the very beginning. And once you pass certification, you know, that your work is at a professional level, you know, you know, the things, you know, you've got the full picture, but then you also get added to my online directory and my referral network so I can refer people to you and other people in the group can refer people to you. And we're just building this little community of, awesome photographers and it's really fun and it's a really exciting and yeah, it is super concert comprehensive. I don't think to my knowledge, I don't think there's anything else like it in the industry. Yet.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:09:12

Yet. Yeah. You're going to be the trendsetter because, uh, one thing everybody's done with is, having to purchase so many different things and so many subscriptions and so many different logins to have it all in one place. Sounds incredible.

Sandra Coan: 3:09:24

A to Z. And, you know, if I may, one of the reasons why I got started on this idea is for that very reason, I was seeing people in my own community. You know, I'm actually trained certified teacher, right? Like I went to teacher school to be a teacher and I have a master's degree and stuff. So I, I know I'm a good teacher, but I was seeing people in my own community, take all my classes, read my book. Come to see me, you know, when I'm speaking on stage and all this stuff. And I felt like they were stuck in this hamster wheel because even though they were working super hard and they were taking the classes, they were doing what they were supposed to do. They were never getting beyond this feeling of, I need to learn more. I'm not ready. I'm not good enough. I need to do more. And so when you're taking these one off classes, it's almost like you just keep throwing all this money with the best of intention for growing, but you're not moving beyond that. And I was like, what is going on? And that's kind of where I started with the certification. I was like, what is going on is you don't know what you don't know. And so when you're in the position to diagnose what your problem is, and then choose courses to help fix that problem, and then take the course, but never get feedback, never get critique, never get mentoring. You're going to see. So you stay stuck because chances are, you're probably not taking the right course. You may not be identifying the right problem and you never know if you're ready or if you're good enough because nobody's giving you that feedback. So, for example, you're not booking clients. Oh, I can't find clients. I'm only ever booking family and friends. I need to get real clients. I must have a marketing problem, right? So you take marketing class after marketing class after marketing class. But maybe. The problem is actually your portfolio. Maybe what you're presenting is off. Maybe your images aren't strong enough. Maybe you have a lighting problem. Maybe you have a problem with consistency in your editing. And if you don't know that, if nobody points that out to you, you're going to continue to throw money at marketing classes. Or attorney, and you're never going to see a result. And that's something that I wanted to help people overcome. And that's why we literally teach everything in the certification program. So there's just no question. If you think you have a marketing problem, there's marketing stuff. In there that you're going to learn, but there's also me and my team being able to look at your portfolio and say, no friends, you don't have a marketing problem. You have a lighting problem. So let's fix that first and get your portfolio where it needs to be. So then the marketing will work. And that's the difference.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:11:54

Like I said, I mean, this sounds incredibly comprehensive and it sounds like a wonderful solution for so many photographers. So, with you and your years of experience of putting this together, I know it's going to be a hit. So. If people are interested, I'm sure that there's going to be people interested listening right now. Where can they go to learn more?

Sandra Coan: 3:12:12

We have a wait list going right now. We open applications three times a year and easiest place to go is to my Instagram. Which is just Sandra Cohn, C O A N, and you can either send us a DM and say, Hey, I would love some information on how to get on the wait list. We'll send that to you.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:12:31

All right, last up today, we have luxury wedding photographer, Brian Leahy, who's going to teach you the importance of attending and volunteering at wedding industry events to build relationships with planners and others in your industry. One thing that he shares is that for higher end wedding gigs, uh, connection and trust with planners are more crucial than getting hired for the quality of your work alone. So Brian talks about how being easy to work with, how following timelines and considering the couple's needs is going to get you in good with wedding planners. And you'll also learn Brian's pricing strategy for shooting fewer events at higher prices so that you can maintain your photographic quality and reduce burnout. You're going to love it. Last time you were on, you shared how you got into photography. so if anybody wants to hear that, they can go back and listen to that episode. but I believe you started with a point and shoot on a trip to Ecuador. And then several years later, you built a name for yourself as a high end wedding photographer in one of the most saturated markets, here in America. But today, Things are obviously changing. So rather than asking you, when did you know photography was going to play an important role in your life? I want to ask you, when did you know that photography was no longer going to play as important of a role in your life as it did?

Brian Leahy: 3:13:48

Yeah, that's a great question. There were two points actually, because after I had built my business in LA to a point that I was very happy, I was shooting more than I wanted to. it kept me very, very busy, but I actually got fairly burnt out in LA because I was working the same venues every weekend. And, you know, years that I shot 30 or 40 weddings, I'd be working at the same venue five, six, seven times a year. And I found it hard to be extra creative and I, I never really considered myself an ultra creative photography. No one's looking at my photos being like, wow, how did he get that photo? My stuff was very classic, very timeless. It wasn't ultra creative. So for me, I didn't go into photography with a super creative brain. And so I really struggled after working at these venues weekend after weekend, trying to find new spots to shoot and new pockets of light. And so I really started to get burnt out in LA. And my ultimate goal was always to combine travel with photography. And I made it a point to really go heavy into destination weddings. And so it took me a good like three, four years to start building my destination wedding business. And that was amazing because. I would never shoot a venue more than once. I was always in a different state or a different country or a different private residence, and I found my photos were better. They were way more creative because these were brand new places that I'd never worked before and walking into. And I was photographing at really amazing places like Banff up in Canada and Jamaica and Italy and all these really, it's hard to take a bad photo when you're going to some of these places. Like I'm not going to the middle of nowhere. So working in locations like that and getting to travel and also getting to spend what was three to seven days with my couples, with my vendor partners, because when you shoot destination, You're not photographing just a single day wedding. You're not working eight hours on a Saturday and you're out. You're shooting rehearsal dinner and welcome party and guys, golf tournament and the brunch on Sunday. So you're shooting for three to six days often. And that was really exciting to me, but about six years of that in seven years of that, I was now at, you know, 14, 15 years of shooting weddings and I just got burnt out, dealing with COVID and two years of what that madness was trying to shoot. And, you know, when you're not allowed to have gatherings was a lot. And coming back into it was amazing because we got to photograph all these really tiny weddings during COVID. So we were shooting weddings with 10, 15, 50 people. And they were almost always incredible weddings. They were intimate. There were a lot more meaningful and more heartfelt. You could see it. And a lot of these clients said, Hey, we're going to throw this, the little wedding now. And as soon as COVID is over, we're going to throw a party. A lot of my clients never threw that party because their wedding itself. Was so good. And so when we started to go back to these big 200, 300, 400 person weddings, all of that kind of magic of the intimacy of a wedding on, in my opinion, kind of got lost again. And it was the same old routine and I just got burnt out on it. And I was like, you know what? My heart's not in it. And I knew because I could tell I was not doing as good of a job for my clients. The photos themselves were still great, but I wasn't giving it a hundred percent. I was that like. 85, 90%. And it was like slowly dropping. And I knew I was like, I got to find something else.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:17:13

I feel that so much. I also stopped shooting weddings and a lot of it was because of COVID as well. I remember I. Was going to a wedding and as I was packing up my car, there was like this hesitation. I almost felt like this, here we go. And then I had to stop myself. Yeah. And be like, wait a second. Why do I feel like, wait?

Brian Leahy: 3:17:34

Yeah. I'm getting paid to be here. This is my job. Like suck it up.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:17:37

Exactly. Well, on top of that, it's like, I built this. I. I did this to myself and why am I feeling this way? And I think that means something. So I too got out of weddings, but let me ask you if it was the intimacy of a small weddings that you truly enjoyed, why not explore just elopements, smaller elopements, destination elopements,

Brian Leahy: 3:17:58

the price point that I had gotten myself into. Wouldn't really allow me to shoot those. So, and I say that in that, you know, after 15 years, I built this really incredible business. My very last wedding was my highest paying wedding. And I'm always open to talk about pricing. So like my very last wedding was almost 40, 000.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:18:19

Wow.

Brian Leahy: 3:18:20

And yeah, it was amazing. And I'm like, why am I leaving this? Like, this is ridiculous.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:18:24

Yeah.

Brian Leahy: 3:18:25

It's yeah. So yeah, this is not an easy thing to leave. but having said that it's when you're in that type of price range, there are very limited clients who are willing to pay that. And I also, I could have dropped my rates to 10, 000 and shot triple the number of weddings, but I also had gotten to a place where I was only shooting, 10 to 12 weddings or 10 to 12 events per year. And so being in that type of price range, there is a very specific type of wedding and client that is hiring you at that level. And so all these weddings, again, were multi day, huge destination, large crowds. And so my price alone kind of kept me from doing those.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:19:02

Then let's go ahead and start there. I know that obviously you transitioned as you just shared out of photography, out of weddings. And I, I really do want to hear more about that. But since this is the beginner photography podcast, I figured, let's go ahead and just start with some questions about your time as a photographer. I'm going to start with a question that everybody has after hearing that right now. Okay. With your last wedding, there being 40, 000, somebody right now is thinking to themselves, I just got paid 400 to shoot a wedding, and it was a thrill. I couldn't believe that I made that much. They can't even fathom getting to 40, 000. So, I'm gonna push ya. I'm gonna push ya real hard right now. Do it. Do it. If you had to write out the five oversimplified steps to go from Weekend Warrior, Two high end wedding photographer in their market. What would those five steps be?

Brian Leahy: 3:19:59

It doesn't even need to be five. It is one step.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:20:02

Let's hear this,

Brian Leahy: 3:20:02

but it's a very long step. The only thing you need to do naturally, your photography is going to get better. and for everyone listening who is charging 400, that's a perfect number you threw out because the very first wedding I ever shot was for 400. I had some family friends call me up. They're like, Hey, we weren't even gonna have a photographer. We'll pay you 400 bucks. Do you wanna come shoot it? I spent like 600 bucks and bought my first flash because I was like, well, I'm shooting inside. I need a flash. I shot weddings for a thousand dollars and$4,000 and$15,000 and 40, so. You can get there. Like it just, it takes time. And so naturally your photography will always continue to improve over the years as you shoot. So I don't need to sit here and tell people go learn how to shoot more. Like you're just going to do that by shooting in order to build your business. You have to network as much as you humanly can. and I say that knowing how well it worked in Los Angeles, which LA has more photographers than literally probably any city in the entire country. Having to compete with that many is really difficult. Your work alone will not make you stand out unless it's something ultra creative But even then it doesn't matter like you're in a sea of Thousands of photographers who knows you matters much more than how well they know your work. And so when I decided to go into weddings full time in L. A., I spent two years and went to every single networking event I could possibly find. And so at the time that was ABC, Association of Bridal Consultants. That was WIPA. That was NACE. That was ILEA. It was all the acronyms, for all of the wedding industry and photography. networking groups. And so not only would I attend all of these, I would volunteer shoot for as many as I possibly could. And within two years, everyone in the LA wedding business knew who I was. I hadn't necessarily worked with any of them, but the funny part is when you go consistently to these things. And people see you constantly, they don't realize what they're saying when they say it, but they're like, Oh my God, you're so busy. We see you everywhere in reality. I'm like, I'm not busy at all. Why do you think I'm at every one of these events? Like if I was busy, I wouldn't be here. and then once you've shot an event for one or two of these people. Especially these networking events, your photos are now getting disseminated to the 50 to a hundred attendees that were there. So your work starts getting around. You eventually pick up small little jobs. I shot for free. I still shoot for free every once in a while. Like, so also don't think that I'm getting paid 40 grand for every gig. I, you will always work for free If it's a good fit, if it's going to be good for the future of your business. and as I started shooting some of these other auxiliary events for some of these planners, because the planners wanted to kind of test me out and they didn't want to test me on a pain client. So they're like, Hey, we've got a little birthday party or we've got, you know, anything. I would show up to these events six months later and planner a would say, Oh my God, Brian just shot this birthday party for me. You should see his work. It's amazing. As she introduces me to her other friends. And so the snowball of that networking works really, really well. It takes a lot of time. there's no quick fix to it. It's not something you can do in a month or six months. This takes years, but having your name out there and people knowing who you are is vastly more important than how good your work is. If your work is good. You're in, but you need to know people and people need to know who you are.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:23:19

that was great. it was succinct, and easy to follow. And what's great is that, you know, there's that phrase that, the simplest things are the hardest, you know? And I think that in a, you know, some people are, Have a hard time just answering the phone. Cause they're like, I don't want to call anybody. Like, I don't know what's going to happen. and me personally, I don't have a problem with talking on the phone, but I struggle with asking others for help. It almost feels like a weakness to me and networking. Seems fine. I can go and I can make friends and chat with people, but would you ask for gigs or would people ask you to shoot things for them? And then side question after that, how do you go from, yes, I just shot this birthday party, but now I just want to focus on weddings, evolving your business.

Brian Leahy: 3:24:05

So I, and I've done a lot of teaching within the wedding space, specifically on marketing and networking. And so my typical policy is I am not a used car salesman. I try and avoid passing out business cards as much as I can, because I would rather collect a business card from somebody and say, Oh, so great meeting you. I ran out of my cards, but I'll make sure I follow up with you and then do follow up with them. but I rarely will ever ask for work. And so for me. Once I've met somebody, I find that building a relationship with them first will naturally lead to work. And so if I meet a planner at one of these events, you know, my, my second year and her work looks really great and she seems super personable and we hit it off as like on a very friendly basis, then eventually we will probably work together. That could be six months from now. That could be six years. I had planner friends who were really close friends of mine. Who didn't hire me for my first 10 years, but it's because perhaps my style of photography was not a good fit for their clients, or perhaps they had another photographer that they almost used exclusively. There's a thousand reasons that people may not hire you. And a lot of time, it's not because they don't like you. It's just because you're not necessarily a good fit for them yet. And so I would spend my time cultivating those relationships first and nine times out of 10, they would eventually lead to. Paid gigs. And, you know, as far as moving from like the birthday party to a 10, 000 wedding. A lot of the time, if you shoot one small thing for a planner and they really like what you do, what they're looking for is not how you shot the event, a lot of the times they're looking for how you interacted with the client, how you interacted with the other vendors, how you interacted with the planner themselves. Were you a diva? Were you super easy to work with? Were you flexible? Were you on top of things? If the weather changed, that's what they're really looking for. Again, your photography doesn't matter that much. Like if it's good, it's good. It doesn't need to be beyond stellar, but how you work with all of those other people on event day is vastly more important. So if a planner sees that you're really good with kids and you're really good with grandma and grandpa at this birthday party, that's They're going to have no hesitation hiring you for a wedding because they know you can handle all these different personality types. And while a wedding is a beast of a thing to shoot, if they see that you're good with people and they like your photography, it will end up naturally leading to them hiring you for bigger, bigger events.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:26:28

I see. So, let's dive a little bit deeper into that because, as I said earlier, sometimes the simplest things are the hardest, right? It's this networking. If it were that easy, quote unquote, if it were that easy, everybody would be doing it, right? So as somebody who has done it, has successfully networked your way to the business that you built, where do you see other photographers struggling? Like, where do you think that it's a struggle for them?

Brian Leahy: 3:26:51

As you move into a higher price level of weddings, 99 percent of your clients will come from Event planners, when you're shooting, when you're in a 3, 000 photography price range, those clients don't have planners. So your referral source also makes a significant difference in how you build your business at a 3, 000 price range. Most of the time, those clients are not going to have an event planner. So they're being referred to you by their friend, by their sister, by their mom. So those are like direct referrals from other photography clients. But once you start to move out of that price range and you start to work with these planners, Planners have a lot of control over who gets hired for these events. And I've worked with hundreds of planners all across the country. And as far as like things that I've seen planners complain about photographers. That's super easy. they're divas. they think they're at the top of the food chain when they're not. The planner is They take too much control over the timeline and don't build in enough time for the video team or they're combative with the video team. Cause again, we work side by side photo video, like we should be collaborative, not combative. But if you're a diva, any amount of attitude planners, like, nah, we don't have time for that. You could be the most amazing photographer. Your photos could be mind blowing, but if they leave that day and they're like, Oh, that photographer was a pain in my. Photographers whining or complaining about not being fed soon enough. It's the little, little stuff like that that makes a huge deal. Other things planners will be like, Meh, we wish he hadn't have done that. Is just taking too much time of the couple. Like the couple is going to get burnt out. They don't want to shoot photos for two hours. As much as we're like in our art and like we need to go create. No, they have a party they got to get back to. And so, you know, working with the planners to ensure that you're running on time and that you're following the timeline and just being really cognizant of all the other moving parts. Because I think photographers tend to get in their own little world at weddings. And they're like, this is about me. And it's like, no, no, it's not your hired help. Yes, you're creative, but there's this weird shift when you start to move up levels. In the photography space, most photographers start and they are creatives and they take beautiful, creative, amazing photos. And I've had this conversation with photographers for for years. They're like, I don't want to move into the luxury space because I want to create my art and my clients right now appreciate my art and I don't want to be just staff, which I get. But also if you want to move up, here's what's crazy about the photography world in the wedding business. The higher end you get, the less creative you need to be and will be because those types of clientele want classic, traditional, modern. They're not looking for ultra creative photos. They're simply not because that type of price level is also third, fourth generation wealthy, and they want the same type of photos that their parents had. And you look at the most creative photographers in the space. Typically who's hiring those unbelievably creative photographers is other creatives. It's other photographers, it's graphic designers, it's people who truly appreciate that level of artistry. But those are also not necessarily the people that are spending twenty, thirty thousand dollars on their photographer. There's this balancing act that has to happen when you transition from, a 5, 000 to 8, 000 photographer to a 15, 000 your art, while you can still create it for yourself is not as important on wedding day because your clients are not looking for it. Does that make sense?

Raymond Hatfield: 3:30:16

It does. No, it absolutely does. And I can think of, other photographers who I've interviewed on the past, or in the past rather, and seeing their work, I've thought to myself. Something similar. Maybe it's just that mindset thing of like you would assume, the higher price point, the more creative it has to be, the more unique. is that something that you figured out by accident? or did you just Because surely at some point as a photographer you do want to level up your skills, but at what point did you say okay? I'm done like I can I can start shooting all these weddings that I want now I'm good

Brian Leahy: 3:30:47

I can definitely tell you when I realize that And this is still a thing and again like no shade to anybody who does any of these things anything I'm saying I've done at some point in the past so Again, like you're mid range photographer, you're spending like 20 minutes during the reception, setting up this super creative ring shot with three different lights and a glass, a champagne glass in the front. So you get some crazy foreground and some clients don't care about ring photos at all. There's not a single client in the history of my weddings that has been like, Hey, these ring photos aren't very creative. Can you like reshoot these? Not a single client. And so we spend a lot of time like crafting these really cool photos. We're not crafting them for the clients. We're crafting them for other photographers to impress them. And so you'll see in the photography forums, these photographers are posting like they're behind the scenes of the ring shot that they did. Meanwhile, they've spent 20 minutes not paying attention to what's happening on the dance floor and what's happening over at the bar. And. yes, there are second photographers covering some of that, but like during the reception, that's when all the good stuff happens, that's when all the emotion, that's when all this activity is going on, but you're off in the corner, shooting a ring shot on a table that no one really is going to need. So you start to not get recognition for these ultra creative photos. And because I also wasn't creative with my portraits, I always was kind of worried that I'm like, I'm not going to get hired for higher end stuff because I'm not that creative. Then I started looking at the top 10 most expensive photographers in the U. S., many of whom are friends of mine now. None of their photos are creative. They're beautiful. They're classic. They're well lit. The exposures are unbelievable. The editing's beautiful. They are not creative photos. Like, if you took the top 10 photographers in the U. S., The most expensive and you put all their work together. Most of it's pretty similar. So I could probably tell the difference between a few of them, but for the most part, they're very classical bridal portraits. They're the family photos are very, very similar. They're not ultra creative. And as I started looking at that, I'm like, all right, those people are charging. 30. To 80, 000 and I can take those same photos they can. So what are they doing differently that I'm not? And that's when it really started to kick in. Oh, who's hiring them for these weddings? Who are the planners they're working with? What are the venues that they're working at often? cause I really looked at them and I was like, if they're doing that and I can take those photos just as well, what am I not doing that they are?

Raymond Hatfield: 3:33:04

Isn't that kind of like a, bruise to the ego there? You're like, Oh man, for sure. For that, for that creative element. And, uh, and then to get to where, you are shooting these 30, 80, 000 weddings, it's, you don't have to utilize the thing that you got into it, much, but just from a, technical standpoint, right, just looking at two images. You said that you looked at a lot of, you know, high end, some of the highest paid, wedding photographers in the country. If you looked at, a photo from them, and you looked at somebody who is a weekend warrior, just from a technical standpoint, do you think that the gap is? What separates the two photos?

Brian Leahy: 3:33:44

Editing style and, or lack of consistent editing style is an immediate kind of red flag of about a new photographer. Like a prime example, I have a old friend of mine. She's getting married in California. She reached out. She's like, Hey, can you look at this guy's work? We're interested in hiring him. He's like 5, 000 price point. His photos were good, but his editing style, you look at his portfolio and there's like eight different editing styles within these photos. And to me, I'm like, Oh, this guy hasn't figured out his editing style yet. You're editing. As important, if not more important than your actual photos, everybody can take the same photo, but if your editing's not consistent, that's a very red flag for me in referring out somebody who's kind of new to the business. So figure out your editing style first, even if you're going to stick with it for like a full year, like you're going to edit the same way for a year versus putting out a portfolio where like, Oh, Well, I like greens a little more this month. And so now your photos are extra green and like, ah, like I'm a little more cool and blue this month. That to me is a, as a problem. The other thing that stands out. And again, this is going to come with, as you build your business, you will also build your kit. There's a huge difference between a 3. 5 and a 1. 2 lens. And so when I very first started. I bought my cheap body, but then I spent really good money on lenses. So I bought a 51. 2. I bought the 8. That gear does make a difference. You don't need to go out and buy all this stuff, but having at least one really nice lens, because, again, you look at the people at the top, they're only using like three different lenses. The camera bodies these days don't matter at all. It does not matter what camera you buy. They're all the same. They're all amazing compared to five years ago. They're beyond, I mean, camera does not matter. Lenses do.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:35:22

Of course, yeah, it always matters until it doesn't matter, right? When you're at that range, you're really competing only against like two or three other photographers who are also some of the best in the country. When you're in that situation, and you're not being, picked because of how creative your photos are, how would you differentiate yourself?

Brian Leahy: 3:35:42

So that's the relationship with the planner really matters. I mean, some planners, especially at the high end may only refer one photographer. They're like, we know our couple really well. We know what they're looking for. We know what their style is. We're only referring Brian. Some planners say we really want Brian to shoot this, but we're also going to give client two other options because we're doing our due diligence. We want to present them with three photographers, see whose style they like a little bit better. So at that point, some of it does come down to photography style a little bit. And then a lot of it comes down to personality. So there are photographers at the high end that are still a little more introverted, a little more quiet. I'm not that I'm, I'm loud. I'm very like interactive. most of my clients tend to be really big partiers. specialize in drunk adults is what I tell people. So that's my kind of crowd. And so. There's nothing, there's not a lot you can do at that point. So if I know I'm competing against my buddy, Dennis, and I know I'm competing against Allen, Dennis has a very specific editing style. Dennis has a very specific shooting style. And the planner for the most part is doing all of the selling for us because the planner knows us well enough to describe how we work. So what's interesting is at the very high end, rarely do you even have an interview or a consultation with those clients. Rarely, like I couldn't even tell you the last time I had a consult with the clients. It's basically like, maybe we'll get on a phone call and just be like, Hey, let's talk about the flow of the weekend. And I'll tell you guys a little bit about myself, but a lot of the time you're kind of getting booked sight unseen. Because the planner's like, great, you're within their price range. I know they're going to love you. And that's it. And they have so many other decisions that they're making for a wedding like that, that if the planner's like, you guys are paying me and trust me, we're bringing in Brian. And that's, that's how it goes. A lot of times at the top end, you may not even meet. I've had weddings at the high end where I have met the couple for the first time on rehearsal night.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:37:34

Oh my, wow.

Brian Leahy: 3:37:35

do

Raymond Hatfield: 3:37:36

you build a relationship to be able to get them comfortable enough in front of your camera to get the photos that, that you need?

Brian Leahy: 3:37:41

That's what you're getting paid for. No, that is the key question. It takes years of practice. You have to be really good with people. You have to be able to walk into a room. And while I can be loud and boisterous and super interactive when I'm meeting that couple for the first time, I am. A thousand percent professional. I do not drink at weddings except for maybe the very end of the after party on Saturday night. but you just have to walk in, you pay extra special attention to the groom because a lot of the time the bride is, she's the star of the show. and granted, this is different if you're shooting two men or two women or whatever the situation may be, but make sure you're giving both a chance. People as much attention because a lot of times somebody in that group has gotten forgotten a little bit and they're just there because they're like, well, today's the day I'm excited to be here, but I have no idea what's going on and building rapport with both of them. And I'll give you a quick tip. This is one thing I did for years and it impressed people every time and it immediately builds rapport. The one thing you can do that will impress everybody at a wedding is memorize names of. All of the VIPs, not only the bride and groom, but every single parent, every single sibling and the entire wedding party. And you walk in and as you're meeting them, you say, Oh, Steve, thank you so much, or Mr. Smith. It's so great to meet you. Finally. I'm looking forward to meeting your wife, Linda. Knowing people's names is such a secret sauce thing and it's hard to do. Like it takes years. And so typically for like five to seven days before the wedding, I've already sent out questionnaire to the couple or to the planner. And so I have all these names. I will also go into the social media for the couple, if they have it public and go find who all these people are. Bridesmaids are and groomsmen. So I have that face. So when I walk in, I can immediately know, Oh, that's Sally. That's Stacy. That's Stephanie. And just that little people are insanely flattered. If you know their name, especially if they haven't met you before. And so that is the most, it's the easiest way. I want to say easy. It takes years to do, but just that little thing is it. You're now friends and not some random guy that has no idea who you are.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:39:47

I don't even know, where to go from there. Cause that's one of those things you're absolutely right. And it's so simple. It's free. It takes work. But, I mean, remember situations where. I've shot a couple's engagement session. I showed up to the wedding and the parents were like, Raymond, and they'll be excited for me. And it's like, exactly. You were looking at me like, wow, this feels amazing. So doing it for them would feel, similar. And obviously if they're having, If it's their day, if it's their friend's day, that just adds to it. That is great. That is a great tip right there. I want to go, real quickly back to, your images. Cause we talked about the creativity isn't, it doesn't need to be to 11, but for you as a photographer, you do want to do better. I want to know where did you have the most room for improvement? What was Brian Leahy's Achilles's heel

Brian Leahy: 3:40:35

posing.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:40:35

Really?

Brian Leahy: 3:40:36

Yeah. Oh, without a doubt. I mean, I had like my same three go-to poses, We all do. And part of my conversation with my couples is always, you are not hiring me to pose you because if I make you do some weird thing, it's gonna show in your face, you're not gonna like it. my shtick was always listen. you guys are hiring me for my candid photography and how I can get you guys to act naturally in front of my camera without being posy. And so over the years, I transitioned from doing a lot of posing to just being really good conversationalist with them to get them to be natural. And again, building that rapport with the groom, especially if this is a, you know, straight wedding, building that rapport with the groom was super important because he was always the most uncomfortable. And I hate having my photo taken. Like anytime I take my photo with my girlfriend, I make the same silly, awkward faces because I don't have somebody directing me. And so I understand how weird that is. And so for me, I keep it super light, super fun. We tend to move around a lot. And then I started getting better at shooting those like in between moments, in between poses, and it's the little walk and it's the look of them. As soon as I put the camera down and then bring another one back up. Weddings are not just about the couple. They're mostly about all the guests. They're about grandma, who is now 95 and they're just excited for her to be there. They're about the best friends. They only get to see once a year. And so myself and my team, we got hired for all of our candid photography because also their friends can shoot portraits on an iPhone now, and they still look spectacular, right? But wedding guests cannot compete with really beautiful Stellar, candid photography. Your cell phone simply cannot do it and your cell phone can't anticipate when those moments happen. So that's what we were getting hired for. My couple's portraits were fine. Like all, all of my clients were like, Oh my God, these are great. In my head, I'm like, these are not so awesome. Especially always comparing to my friends who are very, very talented. Some of their portrait work is just beyond beautiful. so yeah, that, that was definitely my weakest.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:42:30

That makes sense. I appreciate you sharing that.'cause I know that that is also a weakness for a lot of new photographers. and to hear that that's not like the most important thing that you have to be wonderful at before you can Mm-Hmm, make any sort of progress as a wedding photographer. I'm sure it's gonna help out, uh, a lot of listeners. Just kind of a side question, now that you're not shooting high in weddings, obviously, but from that perspective. What are your thoughts on the impact that AI is going to have on high end weddings?

Brian Leahy: 3:42:59

Minimal. Minimal. I mean the biggest impact is just on the editing side and the the back end systems for turnaround I mean I started using an AI editing system two years ago I'd never turned back. I was like, why would I ever edit my own photos again? It built a version of me, so it was editing as myself, but when you can turn around an entire wedding in a day, I would do that, but I would never actually deliver it. I would still wait like three to four weeks. So don't deliver your images too soon. Like even if your clients know you're using AI to edit, don't deliver too soon, in my opinion. Send out 40 or 50 teaser images. Great. Keep'em happy. But wait at least like two, three weeks before you deliver the full gallery. Cause you want them to like kind of marinate, enjoy that wedding. Because if you deliver photos the next day, they're on their honeymoon. Yeah. They're going to look at them, but also like, do you see the beach over there? They're going to go do that instead. it loses the magic. If you deliver too soon, as far as. Other things that AI may impact on the photo side. I honestly don't know. I'd love to hear your opinion on it. I don't think it's going to have any impact at all, because again, we're not getting paid because we know how to use a camera. We're getting paid because we know how to interact with people. And until they have a robot that physically comes in and knows how to interact with grandma and the drunk cousin and a four year old who's. Screaming all over the place until that happens. I don't have any concerns for the luxury photography space

Raymond Hatfield: 3:44:25

or the, the four year old who gets so nervous that everybody's going to look at them before walking down the aisle that they just puke.

Brian Leahy: 3:44:32

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I don't, I mean, do you see anything on the horizon

Raymond Hatfield: 3:44:36

that would have an impact? Well, what you said is that your clients are hiring you. For how you interact with them, because you're dealing with people. and I think that that happens at a certain level. And before that, a lot of photographers are being hired because they have a camera, because they know how to use the camera or simply because couples just know that if they're getting married, they need a wedding photographer. And it's just one thing to check off the list. So I will say that having had conversations with people like, um, John Dolan, he talked a lot about how his couples want. That's the most important thing and it's not so much that, you know, cause I had thought about this, as AI was starting to come out and you could take your face and put it on any sort of wedding image, right? And suddenly you can get married in the Bahamas and have never left Indiana. Mm

Brian Leahy: 3:45:24

hmm.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:45:25

But there is an element of this is fake. This is not real. This is and that's fine for some I mean My wife puts on a on a filter on instagram or whatever where she's peeking a rainbow, you know Like that's clearly fake and that's fine for some things. There's always going to be a subset of people who want Well, this is the real thing. This is what really happened. And I have the same feeling as what you had just, said. I don't think that it's going to have much of an impact on a high end market. it's everything in the middle. It's everything in the middle because low end, of course, it's going to be used and it's going to be used often, it's going to have to be relied upon the middle is what's going to be squeezed to one end or the other. And I think as a photographer, you have to choose which side you'd rather be on.

Brian Leahy: 3:46:07

Yeah, and I think, AI will absolutely replace. Not replaced, but have a severe impact on portrait photographers, on newborn photographers, because imagine you're taking a photo of a newborn, you could put it in this beautiful background now that you don't have to spend two hours creating and you can shoot it in a studio instead of shooting outside in the cold or the warm or whatever it is. It's a lot easier for something like that. Whereas I feel like with live events, any events of any sort, but specifically events, it's hard to fake that because. it's movement. It's unpredictable. And even photographers in the middle, I'm trying to think of like how this would impact photographers who are shooting, you know, 40, 000 weddings. I think even for those couples, still, these photos are going to get sent to grandma and grandma's not going to want some photo where she's been AI photoshopped on, on some random background. And so I, I do agree, especially, you know, with Dolan talking about authenticity. Especially with weddings. These are things that are just really hard to fake because everyone will know because everyone was there, you know what I mean? And you've got an audience of a hundred people who are like, wait, what, what is this? They're going to be like, no, where's the photo of me on the dance floor with my boyfriend? You know what I mean? I think. There's opportunity there for certainly like enhancements of what those photos may look like. But yeah, I don't know for for weddings just because it's such a dynamic event that everyone is as a part of and they'll know if like you're delivering all these weird fake. You know, AI images.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:47:35

I remember the first time I was able to swap a sky in one click or do it in batches and think to myself, this really cleans up this boring Indiana sky on this extremely hot day to be more dynamic and interesting. And I think in situations like that, it. You know, nobody's really going to care. But again, if you're getting married in the Bahamas, where, whereas you were just in a, church basement, uh, yeah, it's going to be huge, huge difference that it just, at what point, what are those photos mean, you know? So, well,

Brian Leahy: 3:48:04

yeah. And, to your point, especially about doing sky swaps and background changes and all these things that you can do in Photoshop generative fill. Now, I think those are great. But the issue is going to be, there's not enough education for couples hiring these photographers who are doing a lot of that manipulation, because if you've got this amazing portfolio of 50 stunning images with these beautiful sunsets, and which you don't get 99 percent of the time, I always tell my friends who are starting to look photographers. I said, the best thing you can do is ask for three full galleries. Do not look at their portfolio more than about five minutes. If you're like, these are great. Amazing. Ask to see an entire full wedding and photographers. It is your job and your duty to be sending to these clients a couple full galleries so they know what they're actually hiring. So I think that's where people are going to get themselves in trouble on the low end is because they are building these images, but they're not building enough of them. Or they're only using them for their portfolio without still showing clients what a full gallery really looks like.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:49:04

Yeah. Good point. Good point. I always tried to, send a gallery. if I knew that a couple was getting married at a venue that I had shot before, I'd be like, great. I love that place. here's a sample of what it might look like on your wedding day.

Brian Leahy: 3:49:15

Yeah. And listen, I faked a photo, one of my best photos ever. I faked it like. 10 years ago in Photoshop before like AI was even a thing, I had these clients do a dove release and only like four doves came out at a time. So it was like four here. And then like 10 seconds later, another three came out. And so I didn't have one single frame with all these birds. And so I ended up baking it. Like I pulled from like eight different frames and then it looked absolutely beautiful. But again, it was only one frame that I could deliver from what was still like a 10 second first kiss. And I, I told him, I was like, Hey, This is obviously fake when you guys see this. It looked amazing. No one ever knew. But then the 10 images following it had two birds in it. So it's like you're either going to fake them all or you fake none of them.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:49:58

Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. I want to talk now about obviously this is a show called The Beginner Photography Podcast. A lot of the photographers listening right now are still new in their journey. They're still fresh. They're excited, to keep learning. Um, but. There is a subset of people who maybe they are at the tail end of their journey. So I want to talk a little bit about the knowing when to move on versus the need to go deeper, because, at one point you said that you got burnt out of shooting all the same locations. So instead of moving on, you went deeper and started doing destinations, but then at the end of that. You decided to move on. where do we start to figure those things out for ourself?

Brian Leahy: 3:50:34

I think you kind of nailed it earlier. When you have that feeling in your gut, always, you always got to trust the gut. Like you, you know, if you're in it, you know, if there's something in the back of your head, that's like, I don't know if I really want to do this anymore. You know, when you show up to a wedding and you're not excited, like. this was an amazing, amazing career. it treated me so well. I had so much fun. I got to work with the most incredible people in the country. I got to travel to amazing places. And so I know some people will be like, I can't believe this guy bailed out after charging, you know, 40, 000, but you also owe your clients like you're being hired as a professional and if you're not giving it a hundred percent, then. You need to, that needs to be a trigger in your brain. Like, why am I not giving this a hundred percent? And if I'm not, is now the time that I need to start looking at other things. Cause like there were a couple of weddings where I know I just phoned it in. we did a great job. Clients were super pumped with the photos, but I knew I was like, Hmm, could have done a little better, could have paid a little more attention, could have been a little more interactive with that family. I didn't memorize all the names. Yeah. for that wedding party. Those things, you have to listen to those things. And so I know there's plenty of photographers that still phone it in because they've been shooting for 20 years. I don't think that's fair if you're charging significant amounts of money.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:51:52

So then, what about the whole, you know, you, you had built such a business. You had made so many connections. You had got into destinations because you like travel. So it's not like you just completely imploded everything and started fresh. You kind of did. But tell me how, I guess how the transition

Brian Leahy: 3:52:09

from, from local to destination.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:52:11

no, not so much more of like what you're doing now with doing a destination and travel coordination is, would that be the right term to use?

Brian Leahy: 3:52:20

yeah, I'm a, I'm a travel agent. Yeah. There's, there's fancier words, but I'm a, I'm a travel agent. Um, it's more

Raymond Hatfield: 3:52:26

than that. Like you're, you're selling yourself real short here.

Brian Leahy: 3:52:29

Yeah, no, we can dive into that for sure. I actually had some friends suggest it. So I had a group during COVID that we did a zoom every Tuesday. It was a core group of really amazing wedding industry. Friends are about seven or eight of us on there. And we were all talking about exits because everyone who's been in the business long enough. Is always talking about how to get out. And I had two of my friends, they're like, well, you've been giving out free travel advice for a decade. Why are you not getting paid for it? And it had never even occurred to me that travel agents were still, in industry or a career that existed. So I started chatting with some friends, found out I've got some friends who are in the business. And kind of just added it as a companion business onto my photography. My plan was, Hey, you I know all these amazing places. I've traveled so many countries in the world. I have clients who are like, Hey, where should we go on our honeymoon? And I was like, I can just add this as an auxiliary business to my photography. So two and a half years ago, my plan was not to retire out of weddings. I was like, maybe this'll be a slow transition and maybe this travel thing will take off. What quickly happened for the first, like seven, eight months. I didn't tell anybody. I just told like three friends and started doing some of their little family vacations. And then they told some of their friends and they told some of their friends. And so started doing this on the side. I only announced to my network 13 months ago that I was adding travel. So November of 2022, I put a video on my Instagram before a big wedding conference that I was attending. I was like, Hey, by the way, I've added travel. I'm still shooting a full season. I'm not retiring. And, uh, pretty much since that video went out, my wedding business Tanked and my travel business took off mostly because I started putting all of my energy into the travel business because to me it was more exciting. It was new. it was a passion of mine for the last 20 years. I love, I live and breathe travel. And so It took two years to finally get out of weddings. But once I started seeing the potential in the travel business, and once I started seeing my photography start to drop off, I was like, now I'm in, I got to commit, this is it. Like, this is now, this is the moment, but it was like, it was a good two year transition to make that happen because my planner saw that I was transitioning or pivoting or whatever you want to call it. And. You have to specialize most photographers when they start out, shoot everything. I shoot nightclubs. I shoot babies, dogs, like bar mitzvahs, weddings, you name it. Birthday parties, everything. And that's great for your first few years. And you absolutely should. It gives you an opportunity to figure out what you're good at, what you enjoy. But by the end of year three or four, you got to figure out what your niche is. And so, because people don't want to hire somebody that doesn't specialize in anything, but It dabbles in all the things. And so I feel like when I started putting out much more travel content, my photography inquiries really just. tanked, which was the plan. I mean, I was very okay with it. I knew that was going to be the case. Whatever you're putting your energy into is what you're going to get. And you can't split your energy between two careers. And it changed from, hey, this is a side hustle thing to, oh, no, this is going to be a career. And that's when it really started to kind of blossom.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:55:36

Do you think that, originally having it as an auxiliary business for your wedding photography and then transitioning just into doing this, Helped you like with clients because it's not like you went from I shoot wedding photography to now I'm a nuclear physicist and these are such different worlds But do you think that you were able to take some of that clientele or networking that you did and help build your business?

Brian Leahy: 3:55:59

A thousand percent. So every part of my travel business is now somehow related to my wedding business. Yeah. So in, in a few ways, like early on, I started booking honeymoons for a few of my photography clients cause they found out I was doing travel and most people don't know a travel agent. There's not that many of us. And so started doing that and then booked some family travels from there. And so because I was already running in a high end. Net worth type of client. Those are also the same clients that are spending a lot of money on travel. So the transition for me was surprisingly smooth because I wasn't starting from scratch within the travel business. There was still a thousand and there still is a thousand things I have to learn, but my client base pretty much just kind of moved over. was lucky enough that travel high end travel and events and weddings are still so closely tied that that transition was really easy. Like you, you're right. If I was like, I'm going to go be. A physicist, or I'm going to go be a psychiatrist. There's not a lot of pull through from one industry to the other, but I just happened to know travel really well. And I'd been doing destination for so many years that that transition was fairly smooth, which I don't know if that's just by luck or it's because I had great friends who were like, Hey, you should do this. Cause you're already doing it. but I, I did luck out that there, was pretty smooth.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:57:17

Well, I think that from having talked to you today, and obviously a few years ago when you were on the podcast, it sounds like one thing that you do well is you listen to yourself and follow your gut, and if, travel is that thing, like, obviously it's been in your life for a long time, you said that your high school graduation gift was a trip, like, and then that's how you got into, uh, Photography. So, um, I think it's, just listening to yourself. So I don't think that it's wild. It's not anything crazy, but, obviously it's set you up for success. And as we were talking about, I think before we recorded, it's easy to see looking back, how you got to where you are, but it's impossible to be somewhere and see what exactly is going to happen in the future. So

Brian Leahy: 3:57:54

I think you also have to listen to the people closest around you. If you're hearing something more than two or three times from people who don't know each other. And I'll kind of tie this all the way back to how I even got into photography. It wasn't my idea. It was a bunch of friends ideas because when I started traveling, came back and I had like three friends who didn't know each other, saw my travel photos from Ecuador and they're like, wow, these are really good. You should get into photography. Had never occurred to me, it was never even a thought. I'd never even picked up a camera before, but I was like, by the third person, I was like, all right, they're not saying this just because they're trying Pump me up. They're like, they, they really like these. So this is what I'm going to at least explore now. And I think being open to those types of possibilities, when you hear things from other people, and that's how I ended up in travel, wasn't my idea. It was a couple of friends were like, Hey, you're already doing this thing really well. It could be a career for you. So whether you're getting into photography or trying to get out, just listen to those people, because if they're saying those things, unprompted, And you're hearing it multiple times. It's at least worth exploring what those possibilities might be.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:59:01

I couldn't have, thought of any better way to wrap up this episode than that, that was, that was motivational and, very exciting. So, Brian, before I let you go. I know that listeners are thinking to themselves, I want to see some of Brian's work. I want to know what he's up to now. Can we see any of your work anywhere now that I think about it? That's a

Brian Leahy: 3:59:17

great question. Uh, yeah. So I've not taken down my photo website so they can find me at Brian Leahy photo and that's L E A H Y Brian Leahy photo. com. I'll probably take it down in like a year. I'm still keeping it up. it's now it's more nostalgic than anything else. otherwise my travel site is Brian Leahy destinations. com and, Brian Leahy destinations on Instagram. I pretty much have no photos left on there either. But if you're looking for travel inspiration, that will absolutely be the best place. I've got some insane travels plan this year. and I love sharing. Everybody always wants to talk about travel. So it's a common denominator that almost all humans share. So if you're looking for some travel inspiration, you can, you can find me on the gram.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:59:56

What an incredible episode today packed with so many practical tips on building your photography business. I really hope that you're walking away from this mega episode with just more confidence about your business journey because you just got some seriously good advice from photographers who have been there. They've done that and they've made it work. From Shane Wohlke's strategy of trading services for experience, to Sandra's insight on pricing for profit, to Brian's advice on networking in the wedding industry, there's no shortage of ideas here that can help you get your business off the ground. So guess what? Now it's time to put everything that you learned today into action. Whether you're planning to build just a killer portfolio, you're looking to improve your SEO to get noticed, or simply start connecting with local clients. Remember, the first step is the hardest it is. But every step after that brings you closer to turning your passion into a business that you will love. All right, that is it today. Remember, until next time, the more that you today, the better of a photographer, you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.