522: Mindset of Photography Mega Episode: Emotions, Critiques, and Creativity in Photography

In this episode of the podcast, we explore the journeys and inspirations of renowned photographers Alison Conklin, Jeff Larason, Brooke Shaden, Taylor Jackson, and Karni Arieli. Their stories reveal the importance of capturing genuine emotions, seeking meaningful critiques, and balancing creativity with technical proficiency.

THE BIG IDEAS

• Capturing Authentic Emotions: Alison Conklin's journey emphasizes the importance of focusing on genuine emotions rather than technical perfection. She encourages new photographers to shoot from a personal and honest place to create timeless images.
• Seeking Constructive Critiques: Jeff Larason highlights the value of receiving specific feedback from a trusted community. This helps photographers grow and understand how their work stands in the realm of great photographers.
• Balancing Creativity with Proficiency: Brooke Shaden shares her experience of starting with a clear vision and working backward to achieve it. She stresses the importance of letting go of perfection and learning through experimentation.
• Efficiency and Outsourcing: Taylor Jackson discusses the benefits of outsourcing editing to maintain work-life balance and improve business efficiency. He emphasizes the importance of simplifying communication and focusing on what truly matters in photography.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

1. Capture Real Moments: During your next shoot, prioritize capturing genuine emotions and interactions over technical perfection. Focus on the stories unfolding in front of you.
2. Join a Critique Group: Find or create a community of trusted photographers to give and receive constructive feedback on your work. 
3. Experiment and Refine: Start with an artistic vision for your next project and work backward to achieve it. Allow yourself to experiment and learn from the process without overthinking.
4. Outsource Editing: Consider outsourcing your photo editing to a trusted service. This will free up your time to focus on shooting and other creative aspects of your business.
5. Streamline Communication: Simplify your client communication by listing your pricing and services clearly on your website. 

RESOURCES:
Visit Alison Conklin's Website - https://www.alisonconklin.com/
Visit Jeff Larason’s Website - https://www.jefflarason.com/
Visit Brooke Shaden’s Website - https://brookeshaden.com/
Visit Taylor Jackson’s Website - https://www.taylorjacksonweddings.com/
Visit Karni Arieli’s Website - https://eyemamaproject.com/

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Transcript

Brooke Shaden: 0:33

When I look back at my life, I don't want to think, I just made a bunch of stuff for me and then I died. Like, I want to think I made a bunch of stuff for me and then I made that stuff relate to somebody else and it impacted their life positively. I'm very interested in the viewer and in their experience of my art and not just my experience of my art.

Raymond Hatfield: 0:54

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast, I'm your host Raymond Hatfield and today we are exploring one of the most powerful aspects of photography your mindset yeah, today's episode is gonna help you cultivate that mindset by diving deep into the mental and emotional aspects of Photography so that you can truly elevate your work But first as you know, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by cloud spot. With CloudSpot, you can impress your clients with a beautiful gallery that is easy to view, share, and download on any device. You can control image size, add a watermark, and download limits as well. So grab your free forever account over at deliverphotos. com and only upgrade when you're ready. Becoming a great photographer is about so much more than just mastering your gear or nailing the technical settings. It really is about developing a mindset that fosters creativity, resilience, and personal growth as well. That is why I have compiled this mega episode featuring six guests who are going to share their personal journeys and the lessons that they've learned along the way when it comes to creating a mindset that is going to help you as a photographer. So of course you're going to hear stories about overcoming creative blocks, building confidence, embracing imperfection, and staying true to your vision as well, even when it is challenging. By the end of this episode, it is my hope that you will have a new perspective on how to approach your photography with intention and focus. And, no, how to grow, not just as a photographer, but as an artist. And remember, you don't have to go it alone. You know, we would love to have you join the incredibly supportive and free beginner photography podcast community. So come join us, say, Hey, ask questions and learn how to take beautiful photos. So just head over to beginner photo pod. com forward slash group to join now. Up first today I chat with wedding photographer and just all around badass Alison Conklin who focuses on capturing real moments and emotion in photography rather than technical profession. You're gonna hear how her multiple near death and death experiences have helped her to embrace personal storytelling in her images and how resilience has enhanced the depth and impact of her work. You're also going to learn the importance of staying true to your personal vision and confidence and how the shift in perspective can strengthen your unique voice and style in photography. So Alison, my first question for you is, I know that you, have had a, full life, there's been a lot in photography, but I really want to know right now, when did you know that photography itself was really going to play an important role in your life?

Alison Conklin: 3:39

Yeah, that's a great question. So for me, honestly, it was, you have to imagine me as a 14 year old girl. Sitting in like the corner of a very busy house that was filled with all of my, Sicilian family members, very loud buzzing around. My mom had just died and I was put in charge of the memorial wall at her funeral. and this is obviously before Facebook and social media. and, um, My parents were hobbyist photographers. They had a darkroom in their house. They were both chemists. And just loved developing film and enlarging negatives and all of that. So, my dad had this like tattered, beat up box that he like kind of dug out of his closet. And was like, hey here, you can go through these and make a wall for your mom's funeral. And, I'd never seen this box before. I knew my parents were into photography. We would have slides that my parents would show. Like they love slide film. and I remember just sort of looking through this box and falling in love with these black and white, like eight by tens my parents had taken developed and printed on their own. And I fell in love with. These photos of my mom that were just candid, organic, her laughing, her eyes closed, like her cooking, just sort of them. And it sort of, it showed me who my parents were in a time period in which I was too young to remember, or wasn't born yet. But then also I saw these beautiful images of like the day I was born. And I just at that moment, As a 13 year old sitting in the middle of this busy house where everyone is grieving, I understood what the power of photography was. And that, for me, solidified my love for photography and what it could do. And even though I had lost my mom and, I had her still and I could hear her laugh and I could, remember the way she smiled and the way she looked. And I just understood how amazing it was to have that gift. and so that was the moment that I was like, photography is always going to be part of my life.

Raymond Hatfield: 5:46

That is, extremely powerful, and thank you so much for sharing that. I'm trying to imagine myself in a similar position and obviously it's impossible to do so, but I don't know if I'd be strong enough to go through a bunch of images that I had not seen of my mom in that same situation. Do you feel like you were doing it? Do you feel like the task of creating this memory wall for your mom was, I don't want to say bigger than yourself, but do you feel like it, in a sense was a way to, shield you from the emotions that you were currently feeling? Or was it more of, a project for you to, again, best showcase who your mom was through these images that you had not seen before? I don't know if that's a fully fleshed out question. Does that make sense?

Alison Conklin: 6:30

Yeah, I think it does. And I think I understand what you're asking. I mean, if you know who I was as a 14 year old, you have to understand that I was an only child. I was a bit of like a shy kid. Yeah. and my family was like a big Italian Sicilian family, so they were all very loud. I didn't live close to them, so I wasn't used to that, because again, my mom was very sick my whole life, and my parents sort of worked as a unit, to, towards her, and so I was sort of always in the background, a little bit lonely, a little bit artsy, like, and so I think my dad knew, like, okay, Alison's not gonna feel comfortable. being kind of smothered by the attention or like, all of that. And he gave me this project. And I think for me, seeing these photos was such a gift. Even now, sometimes I'll have extended family be like, I was cleaning something out and I found this photo. of your parents. And my dad died this year too. and so it still stops me in my tracks because it's such a gift. so I think that for me, it was a little bit of, like me protecting myself, like putting myself in this corner, looking at these photos, but then also it was more of an epiphany of, I am so glad I had these because if I didn't, all I would have left would be these Olin Mills. family portraits, Right. That were like us, like undressed, like wearing clothes we would never normally wear on a regular basis and sitting uncomfortably in a studio. And what I had in front of me was truly who my mom was. And when I look back over my photography career, which is, I don't know, almost 25, 26 years, I realized recently that I started photography for other people. Because at that age at 14, I understood what I had. And I understood if I didn't have that how much harder the loss of my mother would have been or would be. I didn't want that to happen to anyone else. I wanted to create these images for people so that they would always have. And I don't think that a lot of my, cause you have to remember, I started shooting weddings when I was 18. So a lot of my clients were older than me and probably, or maybe didn't have, and obviously didn't have a lot of the same experiences as me. And so I was set out to like make the world a better place, make their lives better because someday we're all going to experience loss. We're all going to experience grief. And maybe they had no idea what that was going to feel like or make sense. My idea was like, if I take these photos and I capture who these people really are, hopefully decades and decades and decades down the road, they'll always have them. And so I am always a proponent of leaving things better than how we found them. And I think that was what was healing to me and being able to think in some small way, maybe my photos would comfort them. Even if they couldn't remember my name. Like, they'd go, yeah, we had a wedding photographer, I don't remember who she was. They would have that one photo of, their mom watching them get married or dancing with their dad or whatever it might be. I don't know if that directly answers your question, but hopefully it does.

Raymond Hatfield: 9:36

want to know, like, from choosing to get into weddings so that you can provide this for people, I think is incredibly insightful. Like, especially for such a young age. But I'm sure that there's a lot missing that we don't know here. From, the 13 year old girl sitting there with the box of photos to Hey, I'm going to do this for other people at their wedding and showing up to your first wedding. You said that your parents were hobbyist photographers. did they teach you photography? how did you learn? I guess one, like were the technicals even important to you or was it simply, the moment?

Alison Conklin: 10:07

mean, I was always sort of in front of the camera. My parents took lots of photos of me, but it wasn't until my mom died and I fell in love with this box of photos that I was suddenly like, wait, dad, you developed these? remember, this is the time period of like one hour developing, you know, or like throw away little cameras. he's like, yeah. And I was like, wait, do you still have What is it called a dark room? Do you still have these things? And he's like, I still have the enlarger. I still have the clock. I still have the camera. I could teach you. And I'm an only child. My dad was suddenly a single father of a teenage girl and I wouldn't leave him alone. And I kept pestering him about how to take photos. And he built me a dark room in our basement. and together we went through. He first taught me how to enlarge negatives, and we went through the negatives of my parents. And so, we would watch, my mom had these, like, beautiful eyes come up, and, the developer and the toner, and, like, we would hang the pictures along a string between the washing machine and the dryer, and it was just the two of us. And my dad, you have to understand, has a doctorate. in chemistry, he's very intelligent, maybe not the best social skill. So it wasn't like my dad was going to be like, how are you feeling about the death of your mother, Alison? It was more, let's not actually talk about it, but let's do something together. And we kind of worked through our grief. He taught me photography, he taught me how to develop negatives, and we looked at so many pictures of my parents and that's what we did. And then as far as technical, I mean, the camera that they gave me was like a Canon, all manual. So I had to learn photography manually from day one. and that's what I did. And that's how I learned to shoot. I started taking photo classes in high school. all of my friends became my models and I did a lot of senior photos and then I was hired to shoot a wedding, even though I had never even been at a wedding before in my lifetime. when I was 18.

Raymond Hatfield: 12:00

So going to that first wedding, you said earlier that like you wanted to capture something that this couple would. have forever to show them like what it is that they truly have. And, I shot weddings for 10 years myself. Like I know how difficult it can be to just show up in a location. You've kind of built a rapport with a couple, like you kind of know who they are. Maybe you've done their engagement session. You've had some conversations back and forth with them, but learning who all the people are in their life, that are important, who are going to be at this wedding. We know that maybe Uncle Bob isn't, like, so important, but, like, we know that Mom and Dad are obviously important. How do you ensure that you would capture those people, in their true element, in a way that, the couple would want to look back on in years? how did you frame those wedding days and the interactions between the couple and their friends and family?

Alison Conklin: 12:47

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I'm a big proponent of people watching. I think that's half of the battle. I also randomly have, a pretty significant hearing loss that I've had since I was a baby. So I'm a really good, like I can read lips and I am also so much of what I'm doing is watching your body language. So I think as hard as being hard of hearing is, it's definitely, increased my visual of watching people's body language, figuring out who they are, how they're feeling, what they're saying versus what their body's doing. And I was obviously watching the couple, but I was always watching to see how the parents reacting. a little fun fact about me, if you want to see me cry like a small child, it's like, show me any parent that's like when the Olympics were on cheering their kids on, I just lose it because I just think it's the most beautiful thing, probably because I wish I had that right. there's a deep part of me that like, especially this year, having both of my parents now gone, it's like, I truly wish that I had that. And I think I'm always looking for that at weddings. I'm always attracted to just the organic, beautiful love that happens, and it doesn't always happen. And I'm not saying every single wedding, but overall, I mean, it's a pretty, it's Unbelievable thing when you have family who loves you and is supporting you and is sitting next to you. and it's sometimes it's just those little things of like the way somebody looks And I sometimes I don't think that we see it in our own lives because we're so busy and we're so caught up in what's going on for ourselves. But I love being the person to be able to capture the way that dad is looking at his daughter for a second. You know, like for a brief second, just like that pride. And love, because I know when my dad died this year, I was going through photos, looking, just looking at them and like, for the first time, seeing the way that he would look at me. And it's like, in the moment, I'm thinking of like the grocery list, the vacuuming, all the editing I have to do, everything else that have go, like, and I'm not actually, sometimes it's very hard to be present in your own life. And so I love being the one that can be sort of the recorder of other people's family members and show them that they're loved. It makes a lot of sense in my brain. Hopefully I'm getting the words properly.

Raymond Hatfield: 14:59

having seen some of your images, I see it as well. But for those listening, like, practically, what does that look like? what do you think, Sets one of your wedding images apart from anybody else. Like visually, what makes yours a signature, image?

Alison Conklin: 15:16

I'm going to hope that it's going to be something that makes you feel something, that like really makes you feel something. and sometimes it's just this tiniest little nuance, the way that someone's holding your hand or, that tiny little glance. All of those little things I think are the big things, and I'm hoping it's just truly the emotion and something that is gonna make them feel like it's something that I shot. I'm not somebody that I could say has a crazy style or a signature look. I'm trying to keep everything very timeless so that it makes sense. 10, 20 years down the road. And it's not like, Oh, we got married in the middle of the Instagram filter phase, right? Like I want these photos to make sense. and because I've been in, at this so long, I've seen all the trends, Come and go. And I think still what, is is the thread for everything is truly and simply the love and the emotion. So,

Raymond Hatfield: 16:54

new photographer's portfolio, maybe they just shot their first two or three weddings. What are the images that they didn't get that you would?

Alison Conklin: 17:03

Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, kudos to going to shoot a wedding. I think half the battle is having the confidence to stand up there and do it. Right. and I think, you know, that idea where everyone else is doing it better than me. And sometimes you go in like, Google stalking a venue or Google stalking a photographer that you really like and like I'm trying to emulate exactly what they shot. But I had a photo class once and they said to me, We could all be shooting the exact same scene. We're all going to shoot it differently because your life experiences are going to give you lenses and a vision that are different than the person sitting next to you. With the same gear shooting the same thing and I think it's remembering that like obviously you are attracted to photography the art of photography For some reason you're picking up a camera and I'm assuming it's not just you know a job because certainly it's a very Hard job to do but you're picking up a camera because you love it for some reason and I think it's drawing on What makes you you personally like? Why are you picking up a camera? And I think it's remembering that and it's not trying to copy another photo that you saw or going off the Pinterest board or, creating the image that's on the website. Like it just needs to come from a pure place. And I think it will give you the longevity in a career is truly just being honest to who you are.

Raymond Hatfield: 18:20

How long do you think it took you to find that?

Alison Conklin: 18:25

you have to remember that I started when the internet was just a baby little thing. So

Raymond Hatfield: 18:31

you didn't have much to reference,

Alison Conklin: 18:33

I did not have much to reference. but then there was a time where I got caught up in like, Oh wait, I needed to look to see what everyone else is doing. And so you do get lost along the way that's that confidence that you have to build. I barely sort of look at things now in terms of like, what's everyone else doing at this venue? I'm sort of like, it's really, that's secondary to, I always say that. you could be the greatest, best person to create the most beautiful light and know how to like, light something amazingly perfect. But if your couple is standing there like miserable, it doesn't matter how great your lighting is. really, truly what matters is that you've caught a moment. That's real. Or you've, gotten your. clients to be so comfortable that they're just happy to be, they're taking your direction. and you're feeling something with what you're taking photos of. think that that's like the most important thing is really just like how you're walking into a wedding and how you're treating people and the words you say are powerful, over making sure everything is proper and absolutely perfect. Not that exposure is not important, but like you don't need to get so caught up in like I have a three light setup all time. It's secondary

Raymond Hatfield: 19:41

I've told this story on the podcast before that the first wedding that I shot, I was so consumed with getting it technically perfect that I shot the whole first dance at a half a second shutter speed, because I wanted the lowest like grain like I wanted to shoot at the lowest ISO, and it was after I sent a couple of those photos. By the way. almost all of them were unusable from their first dance and they used the photo from a friend's 2012 cell phone camera as their like profile photo rather than one of mine I immediately realized, Oh, I'd rather take a blurry photo or a grainy photo over a blurry photo any day of the week. it really is the ends justify the means when it comes to like capturing that moment. It doesn't matter what the technicals are. They used us like they chose a cell phone photo over mine. You know what I mean? And I think that that really helped frame for me kind of exactly what you're saying there. It's like yeah, it's important yeah, it's great to get a technically exposed shot. But at the end of the day if you didn't get the moment Nobody's gonna care. Nobody's gonna remember this photo. It's you wasted your time essentially. So And I only know this because I've listened to a number of episodes, a podcast of yours trying to prepare for this interview. But the entire time as a wedding photographer, you had this kind of looming cloud over your head with health issues as well. Can you talk a little bit about that and what that meant for you as a wedding photographer?

Alison Conklin: 21:07

yeah, so you should know okay, so my mom died at When I was 14, but in that same year, five months prior to her death at the age of 13, I was diagnosed with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, which is the same disease that she had and that took her life. And so I was diagnosed. She dies a few months later. and I have always sort of thought, okay, I'm not like when I was diagnosed, they were like, you have the same heart as your mother. And as a 13 year old, I have no idea what that means, except like now I've watched her die. So she died at 42. I always think I'm going to die at 42. And I'm shooting weddings with a heart disease. I have a defibrillator implanted. I'm shooting like there was, I've never actually shared this story, but I had a wedding. Um, Yeah. in Bethlehem and then Maine. And the day before the Bethlehem wedding in Pennsylvania, dropped dead. it was the exact same situation that happened to me and my mom, except cause she died in our kitchen, with just her and I together. And I, tried to give her CPR and I had to call 911. The same thing happened to myself and my youngest son when I took him to go get his braces. Had the same deadly heart rhythm, but I had an ICD implanted. So I, lived and I still went the next day and shot a wedding and then drove to Maine and shot another wedding. so I did a lot of crazy things I was sick, I was sick, but I was still shooting weddings. I was shooting weddings up until, October 8th was the last wedding I shot in 2022, and October 10th I was admitted to the hospital to wait for a heart transplant.

Raymond Hatfield: 22:40

Oh my gosh.

Alison Conklin: 22:41

So I know I didn't fill in a lot of the gaps there, but I also have had two brain tumors where I went blind, and they weren't sure if I was going to get my vision back. that's the hard part about photography. I don't think they, or wedding photography per se, because like you're agreeing to be somewhere, years later, like a year, in a year in advance. It's like, yeah, I could definitely be there. And like the day that my dad died, I shot a wedding. yeah, there's the hard part about that. That's the dark side

Raymond Hatfield: 23:05

Okay, so.

Alison Conklin: 23:06

I know. Where do you want to go with that? I've totally lost the reins.

Raymond Hatfield: 23:09

Okay, hold on. So, uh, first. I've rescheduled podcast interviews because I've had a headache. And the fact that you're like, no, this is, I'm going to drive and shoot weddings after the day that I died is, incredible. let's tackle the waking up blind part first, because I would imagine as a photographer, that's got to be pretty scary. tell me about waking up and being blind.

Alison Conklin: 23:36

Yeah, I had not been feeling well, but couldn't really define why. And then one day I literally woke up and I could only see a ninja slice in my vision. And I remember saying to my husband, I was like, I don't, I feel like I can't see anything. Like, I can't really see. He's like, what are you talking about? I was like, don't worry about it. Cause I was like, maybe I'm just tired. I'm like rubbing my eyes. And then finally he's like, you know what? You need to go to the eye doctor. let's go to the eye doctor. I'm downplaying. I'm a really good down player and toxic trait. and I go and they do this test of like peripheral vision. And usually you have like a small, tiny little path. It's completely black. And the doctor was like, are you joking? I was like, joking about what? He's like, You can't see. I was like, no, I can't see anything. He's like, yeah, you need to go to the emergency. Like, why are you here? Go to the emergency room. So my husband drove us to the emergency room and then they did some cat scans and like, yeah, you have a golf sized, brain tumor sitting on your optic nerve. And I was like, no, I'm supposed to shoot a wedding this weekend. they're like, yeah, if you don't take this out today, we can't even guarantee at this point, you're going to get your sight back. And I was like, wait, what, what are you talking about? And so obviously I had to have emergency brain surgery. And then that tumor ended up coming back five years later, but it seemed to be in

Raymond Hatfield: 24:54

So, so the same thing happened again. You woke up again. Um,

Alison Conklin: 24:57

it didn't go blind the second time they were constantly watching it and it just started to grow back and they were like, it's back. So then the second time, not as traumatic, but I had to have surgery again. Yeah, casually.

Raymond Hatfield: 25:10

Okay, I don't want you to downplay this as a professional down player. Okay, because, again, I can imagine, we'll get into the heart, obviously, as well. but the idea of losing sight when your job, your livelihood, this thing that you've decided to dedicate your life to. Had to have been terrifying even know like what to ask Like how did you prepare for that wedding because i'm assuming that you didn't shoot that wedding you had to get somebody else Okay. Yeah, so

Alison Conklin: 25:39

somebody else. Yep. so I was basically rolled into emergency brain surgery and like I got to meet the surgeon. I couldn't see the surgeon, but she held my hand and she was like, we're going to do the best we can. I, I can't guarantee you're going to get your sight back. And I was like, listen, I was like. Okay. even now it makes me cry. I just, I don't want to die. Like I have two young sons. I'm trying to do everything I can to be here for them this poor woman was like, just came in to kind of like, give me the, you know, we're going to do our best speech. And I'm like, you don't understand. I have like a seven year old and I have an eight year old and I need to be here for them. And she was like, okay. and then I was wheeled in and, and that was it. And I remember the surgery was a long time. It was a long. quite a few hours and it was evening by the time I was rolled out. I think it was like probably the middle of the night and my family was only, I was in the ICU so they were only allowed to come in two at a time and they were so afraid to be like, can you see anything? And I remember I opened my eyes and I could see the clock on the wall And I remember like, it was my husband and my aunt who came in and they were like, Oh my God, you can see the, you can like see something. Everybody was, we all like were so relieved. I get super emotional talking about it now because it's just, I don't even know how to explain what would have happened to my life if it would have taken a totally different trajectory, obviously, but. But I survived.

Raymond Hatfield: 27:03

loss that it seems. so terrifying. Like, there's this idea, I suppose, that like, if you know that it's coming, maybe you can prepare. but, once it's gone, it's gone. And, I don't know if it's different knowing that like, all this happened in the course of, I'm guessing like 48 hours, when you woke up to the time to where you were into surgery and all that. What did you think afterwards? Did you think like, congratulations? Like now I can complete my life's mission of, capturing these, moments, these memories for others that was it just like going back to work? What, where were you at from there?

Alison Conklin: 27:37

I mean, I took a couple weeks off because I had to, because they had gone through my nose. It was very Egyptian because of obviously being on my, optic nerve. but then I landed back in the hospital with complications, but eventually, yeah, I went back to work and I. I mean, did it without missing a beat, which is kind of great. And also kind of probably there's some sort of diagnosis in that, but I mean, I just think that it's constantly a reminder. You do not know what the next day is going to hold. I mean, now more than ever, as this, my story has progressed, my life has progressed. I just don't take stuff for granted. Like, it's just like, I am present and aware. and grateful for every little thing. Like for me, especially now post heart transplant, if I can say good morning to my husband and my kids and I could say, how was your day at the end of it? That is a great freaking day. That is success. That is, doesn't matter what's going on with anything else in my life. If I get to talk to those three people in the same room, it's a good day.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:39

that, perfectly brings us into, your new venture here, Bonus which I have right here, this new magazine. you touched upon the heart transplant there.

Alison Conklin: 28:48

Casually as one does, yes.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:50

Casually. Um, I don't know if we need to get into whole medical background of that because, I feel like what we've learned so far is, I mean, you pretty much summed it up really well right there to being present and, trying to be there for your people, like that's what makes a good day. But I want to know, obviously you talked about the heart transplant, so that kind of touches upon bonus days. Tell me where this idea for bonus days came from and tell me, what the magazine is.

Alison Conklin: 29:17

Yeah. So I'm so excited about this. It's like a passion project and I could talk about it all day. So how long do you have?

Raymond Hatfield: 29:23

All day.

Alison Conklin: 29:24

all day. All right, good. so when I was told that I needed a heart transplant, I was told I had six months to live, and I had to sit through an intake meeting. Now, not everybody gets an intake meeting when they're told they have a diagnosis like this. And I remember thinking, and my husband and I looking at each other like, Well, that was horrible. Maybe it's better if we just roll the dice to see how long you live. maybe this isn't the life that you are going to want. which I know sounds ridiculous, but you had to be there in that meeting. And then once it happened, my Friends didn't know what to say to me because honestly, I don't think unless you know somebody that's been through transplant or unless you yourself have been through it, all you know is probably TV shows that you've watched on like Grey's Anatomy.

Raymond Hatfield: 30:03

Yep.

Alison Conklin: 30:04

Yeah. And it's not that it's beautiful, but it is hard. The first year was the hardest year of my life and nobody knew what to say to me. So they would say, Hey, Alison, just join a Facebook group. So I was like, okay. So I joined a Facebook group and it was horrible. and I get it. I mean, I know why everyone is upset and sad and miserable and like, but there's so much misinformation and it was just not for me. And I couldn't at the point of like one or two months post transplant be at a spot where I was reading horrible outcomes because I was terrified of what my life was going to look like when I left those hospital doors. And when you're in the hospital for days, it turns into weeks. It turns into months. You're scrolling your phone, watching everybody else live their lives, seemingly perfectly, which we know is not true, but like, you know, you're scrolling through everyone's highlights and I'm sitting there in a hospital room or I'm watching everybody out the window, living their life or I'm reading magazines about celebrities or I'm reading articles about how to stay healthy. And I'm like, well, what about me? Like I never really had the choice. So it was sort of like. born with this thing. And it doesn't mean that my life is terrible. And I bet you there are a lot of beautiful stories out there. So I was like, I love magazines. I've been working in magazines my whole career. I work for a local magazine here and where I live that I love that I work every month for. I've had, the cover of Martha Stewart weddings. I've been in brides national, like I've been in, you know, flower, like I've been in national magazines, worked with local magazines, love magazines. I love the whole thing. I'm also a kid. Born in 1980. So I love holding a magazine. and I said to someone in January, I'm thinking about starting a magazine all about transplant chronic illness for their caregivers, for donors and donor families. And she was like, I'll help you with that. And I was like, wait, really? And so in January we started dreaming about it. She's a graphic designer, I'm not a graphic designer. She's amazing at it. She's the one who did that magazine. And I just started finding people that I knew, and putting this together. And so it's stories of people who have been through hard things, but beautiful things have come out of it. So, and I'm not trying to make it toxic positive, but I'm, trying to show people that no matter what your diagnosis is, your life can absolutely still be beautiful. If you want to be miserable. Cool. I get it. You can be like that. I love that for you, but you don't have to be. and I think that's what I wanted to share. And again, if I was going to be part of the transplant community, I wanted to leave it better than when I found it. And to me, my answer was a magazine. So that's sort of what it was birthed out of.

Raymond Hatfield: 32:35

Tell me about the title.

Alison Conklin: 32:36

so bonus days, I have been counting every day post transplant, a bonus day. Cause I shouldn't be here. Right. And I am here. I'm here because doctors and nurses are studied and put the time in. I'm here because someone said yes when they clicked their driver's license and their family agreed to their wishes. And so I call it a bonus day. Today is bonus day 680 post transplant. I write it on a calendar every morning and my husband will say, Hey, happy bonus day. So glad you're here. and so that just felt like the perfect title. and it doesn't have to be that you have to have a transplant or some crazy, like every day could be a bonus day because we don't know what tomorrow is going to bring. So like, if you look at it as this is amazing, I'm so glad to be here today. Sure. Life could be falling apart in areas, but like, it's a beautiful thing to be alive. So that's where that name comes from.

Raymond Hatfield: 33:28

one thing that struck me when, by the way, you sent this to me, and thank you so much for this. Going through here, I believe all of the images are done by you, or the majority of the stories, the images are done by you, and it's so interesting that, like, I could see going to a dark place very easily, having to go through this, as you said, Facebook groups are full of them, so obviously people can relate to that, I would imagine, but the images that are in this magazine have a A quality that is, One, extremely powerful, but also really vulnerable. And I don't know if that's done intentionally, if that's just who you are as a photographer, but could you talk to me a little bit about that?

Alison Conklin: 34:14

Yeah, I mean, well, thank you for seeing that in the work. I mean, I like the cover girl. she's amazing. Did you read it? I mean, it's just, yeah, well, thank you so much for reading it. And, I approached it delicately because she is she graduated high school with my oldest son. So I could be her. I could, I could be her mother. Right. it with somewhat of a small understanding of what has happened to them. and I really want to capture it not in like a, a false way, if that makes sense. So It's after like spending some time with them, like even yesterday, I drove to Brooklyn and I was photographing an incredible story of two friends. One needed a liver. The other one was her living liver donor, in their 30s. And we spent some time talking before I just picked up a camera because suddenly like for me, The camera is just a projection of my body, like, it just feels like part of me, but it becomes this thing that's between us, between me and the person I'm photographing. So it's like, how do I make this object that is obviously necessary to take a photo kind of disappear? And I don't know if you've ever, like, experienced that or thought that way, but like, so I'm just trying to be like, hey, I'm like honoring you and your story and like wanting to get to know you and show you in a beautiful light. And I just want to see like, everyone wants to be seen. Everyone wants to be seen and loved for who they are for all of it. And I think if you can reach that point with your clients or the people that are standing in front of your camera, going to have a beautiful image regardless of. the location is insane or the lighting is absolutely perfect. But if you get to a point where you can truly see who your client is, you're going to

Raymond Hatfield: 36:01

How do we do that? You had said like, spend some time get to know them and one I absolutely Resonate with that. That's actually why I switched to Fuji Just so that I would have a smaller camera in front of my face. That wouldn't be so intrusive and it was very helpful that way but like at a more personal level Would you do this at weddings as well like practically What does this look like? Is it 10 minutes together? Is it 30 minutes? Is it Talking about our vulnerabilities? Is it asking them their deepest darkest secrets? how do you break down those walls?

Alison Conklin: 36:31

mean, that's a great question. I mean, I think it truly starts from the minute you speak to a potential client. And most importantly, it also starts within the minute you walk into bridal prep or, whatever you're walking into to photograph and the energy that you're putting out. a lot of times clients will say, you were so calming, thank you so much for being so calm and like this chaos of a day, because like, especially wedding photography, like I'm hanging out with them all day. Like I'm the person probably standing next to them more than anybody else besides their, partner.

Raymond Hatfield: 37:00

You also know them the least like compared to everybody at their wedding day, it's so weird

Alison Conklin: 37:04

Yes, I know it is, and I think I draw upon body language. I put my story out there, which was terrifying, which I haven't always done, but I have so recently, and I find that just being authentically who I am. I had a client last year who said to me, the pictures you take are absolutely incredible. And this is why we hired you. But You are more powerful in just being who you are than you are in the photos you take and I just thought that I like that stuck with me so much and that's everybody right you have your stories you have what has made you who you are and why you're sitting here right now and that's beautiful and that's powerful because like again we could all be looking at the same thing and see it a hundred thousand different ways because of your experiences and who you were as a kid and I think it's truly just Not being ashamed of that. If that makes sense. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 37:51

does and I appreciate you sharing that but I also want to ask because like we don't really talk a lot about gear here on the podcast because as you know, it's like the gear, it matters so much and then it doesn't really matter. I know that you also shoot a lot of GFX you shoot, medium format with And in my head, my first thought was, well, that makes the camera bigger right like if the majority of images are going to be seen on a screen. Does that really matter? I haven't personally shot anything GFX. So like, can you talk about that a bit? Because that does introduce a whole nother role there to this equation of trying to connect with somebody, but then also having this, relatively large camera in front of their face, which honestly is probably the same size as any full frame, DSLR camera. But, yeah, what does that mean for you in your photography?

Alison Conklin: 38:35

Yeah. Well, first of all, I mean, I love Fujifilm. I fell in love with Fujifilm simply for the science, the color science and how beautiful it is, how easy it was to shoot. intuitive all the buttons were. But for me, when I knew that they were coming out with a medium format, I was like, Oh, I have to try this. So I picked it up and, I fell in love. And I think for me, what I love specifically about the GFX is I love the way the medium format pictures look. And it gives me a little bit of a difference between everybody else who's maybe shooting the same gear, right? There are a lot of people who are shooting full frame. Canon, Nikon, you know, all that stuff, Sony, but there's something very different about the GFX and it has that depth and that grit and just a little bit more of that, like artsy ness that I crave in my images that kind of give it more of that, what I hope and what I see it as of a soul or like a feeling. and I mean, it's still relatively small, obviously it's not as small as like the X T5 or like My beloved X 100 series, but it is my absolute favorite. You need to try it. I don't know if which camera system like stores are near you, but you need to go and make them to get it so you can try it.

Raymond Hatfield: 39:43

Okay, well, I take that back. I guess I have shot a few images, I guess, in that sense, like at a camera store, but nothing like out in the field. But I just, I shoot, I still have two X Pro2s, and I hope that I'm buried with these cameras because, like, I love them so much. And, When the X100V first came out, I, pre ordered it and I got it and I loved it. And I feel like there was just this time in my life, through the pandemic where, like, I just felt my most creative self. I don't know if it was because, like, we had the space of not shooting weddings and you just needed to shoot something or what, but it's like I ended up selling it because, well the postcard that I sent you with the to create those, I call them, just like a photo stitch as you saw, right? To create those, you need a little bit longer of a focal length, so I thought like, I'll just go back to my X Pro2s. So I sold it like a big dummy. Literally the next day, the whole world is like, what's this? And then prices skyrocketed. But anyway, and now I can't get my hand on another one. but for the X Pro2, it's like, I love the range finder feel. And it's like, I would love to get my hands on a 50R, but that's discontinued now and that's older technology and I try to keep telling myself, I remember going from crop sensor Canon, like the 40D to the 5D Mark II. Thinking, Oh, when I go full frame, it's just going to blow my mind. the quality of my images are going to like, it's going to be amazing. And I was still taking the exact same photos. there was a little bit more, depth. obviously it was wider, but fundamentally they were the same photos. And I'm nervous that, I'd make the investment into the GFX system. And still get the same photos.

Alison Conklin: 42:13

I

Raymond Hatfield: 42:14

you feel that way at all?

Alison Conklin: 42:15

I didn't. I mean, cause right now when I shoot a wedding, I have a GFX on one hip and the XT five on the other.

Raymond Hatfield: 42:21

Oh, really? And you can combine the two images together and they work?

Alison Conklin: 42:24

They work. They were great. But yeah, I mean the X pros, I mean, I love that. I can totally see why you love your X pro two, as you said, the pro two. Yeah. yeah. I mean, for me, the GFX gives me, like if you're looking at Carolyn's piece in that magazine, that open, to spread. Well, first of all, that image of her in her wheelchair, I love, love, love. And then that one where there's flowers on her face and it's a side profile. And then there's like a, quote, that to me screams medium format GFX. I don't think I could have gotten it with any other camera. and I love the company itself. I mean, and that's a big thing. I want to know who I'm giving my money to, and I want to believe in what they believe in and I do, and they're amazing. So. Fujifilm for life.

Raymond Hatfield: 43:06

Fujifilm for life. I was just thinking about getting that tattoo, actually.

Alison Conklin: 43:10

Oh, amazing.

Raymond Hatfield: 43:11

No, I'm just kidding.

Alison Conklin: 43:13

On your forehead,

Raymond Hatfield: 43:13

maybe? Yeah,

Alison Conklin: 43:15

do it. Yeah, perfect.

Raymond Hatfield: 43:17

I want to ask another question about, Caroline's piece here, because, on the cover, she's sitting in the back of a truck, right? She's not, she doesn't have her wheelchair. And on the inside, just about all the photos. She is in her wheelchair. So, can you talk a little bit about, well, I guess one, I don't really know her mobility. I don't know if she uses the wheelchair just for assistance or if she like requires it. But, can you talk about like the balance of highlighting this thing that makes you different being the wheelchair, but also not letting it Define you as a person through images because obviously when you go through a magazine that's going to be the first thing that you look at and you're going to make a subconscious, yeah opinion like based on that right away. So balance that?

Alison Conklin: 44:00

Yeah. So she is permanently disabled from, she was on ECMO, which is a life saving, End of life thing that they do, she ended up having a spinal stroke and being completely paralyzed from her hips down. And then she had to get a transplant like the next day. so when we were thinking about cover, I had this idea of a truck, but I was so like, I wasn't sure how she was going to feel first of all, not being in her chair. And if. I didn't want to offend her in any way. And because I've never really experienced anybody firsthand in a wheelchair, I was really careful. but I asked her, I ended up being like, Hey, I was like, are you comfortable with this? There's no wrong answer. If you're not. We won't do this. She's like, Oh, absolutely. Because she is out of her chair when she goes to PT, but it's not like she can, she can't walk. so she was comfortable. And I just asked her, I didn't like come out of the gate and ask her, I was like, we need a rapport. I need her to trust me. And then I asked, but I almost put the picture of her in her wheelchair on the cover. I loved it so much. And the only reason I didn't is because it took forever to find a truck. Like if I could just explain to you how hard it was to find a truck and then I had to get a florist. but I could have totally not even done any of that and been happy with everything else. but that was the only reason I went with it just because procuring the truck was a task. But it's honestly just creating a moment where you can feel, you can feel like you can ask those vulnerable questions.

Raymond Hatfield: 45:21

Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that's something that I would have a delicate line, towing. do you think that the experiences that you've gone through have helped you to navigate that better? Knowing, like, what is personal to me and what is not? How I want to define myself?

Alison Conklin: 45:37

Yeah, I definitely do. Because, and even before I had written her story, I had said, Hey, just so you know, we're going to, set up this interview. And I was like, I am going to touch on what has happened to you, but it does not define who you Carolyn are. Just so you know, I'm not going to retraumatize you and make you tell me everything. Cause I can read these things and interviews and I'll ask you if I need to fill in any blanks, but I went at it like, yeah, you had a heart transplant. Yes. You're in a wheelchair. Yes. You've had cancer. It doesn't define who you are as a person. And I think that's the big part. It's like, I am not defined by my heart transplant or the death of my parents or the brain tumor. Like. It has made me who I am. It does not define who I am. and I think that's a big part in the chronic illness community. It's like, we have this thing that affects us every hour of every day, but it does not make us who we are. And that goes back to the full circle of, everyone wants to be seen for exactly who they are, and loved and appreciated for who they

Raymond Hatfield: 46:35

that's what people want to do. I think that's what photographers want to do as well. Like, that's what they want to capture. People want that. Photographers want to capture that. but it's one thing to be able to capture. I appreciate you sharing all of your tips as far as like how to build a connection and, choosing the right gear for you and, all of these things. but like you also turned this into a magazine, right? you are taking. the life experiences and the, personal pain that you've been through as well as others and are using it to change the world, to make other people feel better, about their situation, like, what tips do you have for maybe listeners to do the same thing if maybe a magazine isn't right for them, like, does it have to be a magazine, what could we do with our images?

Alison Conklin: 47:17

It could be anything and it could be blogs. It could be Instagrams. It could be, you know, like think about humans of New York and how that turned into something so beautiful. I mean, I think it's truly just not shying away because for so long, for so many years I was like, if anybody finds out that I need a heart transplant no one is going to hire me or if anybody finds out that I have a heart disease, no one's going to, I hid all of that. And that is such a big part of who I am and why I am the way I am. Yeah. And I. Just like we want to be seen for who I am as a whole and so I think if you can just Literally if you like, you know, what's really important to me and whatever life experience you've had Think about how you can make that situation better. And then that's where I you know Have come up with the magazine idea just from the hours of being in the hospital But like there's lots of ways to make the world a better place And I think it's really thinking about what would make the situation that I'm very knowledgeable in better So I hope that answers your question, but I think it's it's okay

Raymond Hatfield: 48:13

no one size fits all answer, right? There's no, like, oh, we'll just bring up some 4x6s and give them to everybody. it truly is a personal journey. And, like, the question that I asked you was very direct. But, the answer had to be, a bit, larger than that. Uh, so, no, I, I do appreciate that. And I think that, that listeners are gonna, Take that for what they will and they should, I want people to also use their cameras to make a change in the world and hearing from people who have done it is what I love so much about this podcast, being able to have these conversations because sometimes it does feel big, to be able to do that. Sometimes it feels scary to, approach somebody or, or Me personally, I have this feeling of like, who am I? who am I to tell this story? this isn't my story to tell, this is somebody else's story. Which is why I like doing the podcast. I want you to tell your story. You know, not me. I want you to tell the story. But I feel like this is kind of my way of doing it. Because it's like, The podcast is more of a platform than to allow others to share their story, which can then help others rather than me being like, Hey, guess who I found today and guess what they went through. And here's what they did. Now you go do the same. Cause that's not as fun. That's not impactful. That's not as important. And then I don't get to have fun conversations like this with awesome people like yourself. So, you did answer the question. So that was perfect. Having never had a transplant myself, having never been in the situations that you have been in, or created a magazine, I'm wondering is there anything that I didn't ask you today that you want to make sure that listeners know?

Alison Conklin: 49:42

I think it was a great interview. hopefully I answered it properly But I think that like honestly, it's truly just following your heart and following What you are truly passionate about. I mean, life is so short. And so if you have a dream, go for it and maybe it won't go anywhere. And again, maybe my magazine won't go anywhere. I've committed to doing four, like a whole year of it and seeing if I can get it off the ground. but I'm so glad I'm doing it. And I think that's the thing. It's just like, it's always going to be a no, if you don't try. So if you have something that's sort of like, eating inside of you that you're like, I really want to do this. I encourage you to just do it. Life is short. You don't know. And you never know who needs the things that you're going to put out there. So like, just go for it. what's the worst that can happen? Somebody tells you, no, that's okay. Big deal.

Raymond Hatfield: 50:27

The answer is always going to be no if you don't go for it. that's going to be my tattoo instead. That's what I'm going to get. That was great. thank you for that. I know that people are listening and they're like, Wow, she's gone through some crazy stuff. I want to see some of these images. Alison, where is the best place to find you online so that listeners can do that?

Alison Conklin: 50:44

Yeah. Oh well, thanks. my wedding website is Alison conlin.com, one L and Alison and bonus days. the website is bonus days mag.com and my Instagram is Alison Conklin.

Raymond Hatfield: 50:59

All right, next up, I chat with Jeff Larson, a street photographer and host of the YouTube show, The Crit House. Today, Jeff is going to teach you the value of thoughtful self analysis and why taking the time to reflect on your photos before sharing them can grow a deeper understanding of your artistic choices. You're going to learn the significance of receiving specific feedback and why asking for detailed critiques can help you better grasp how your work is perceived and will quickly identify areas of improvement. Jeff also shares the importance of a trusted photography community, explaining how both online and in person groups offer different but very valuable critiques and diverse learning opportunities that are essential for collaborative growth and becoming a better photographer. Jeff, why don't you tell me, when did you know that photography was first going to play an important role in your life?

Jeff Larason: 51:49

It was a process. I didn't really start, taking pictures until I was 20. I mean, except for snapping family stuff and not really thinking about it. But, somebody gave me a camera when I was heading to London for a trip for the summer, when I was in college. And, when I was there, there was a darkroom class that I took. And I had just been wandering around the streets of London and the guy who was running the darkroom looked at my images and said, Oh, you should, take a look at these photographers. And It was, Andre Cortes and, Robert Frank and Henri Cartier Bresson. So I went to the library and looked them up and, at that point it was just I was just knocked out by the, that there could be art. I was not aware of that photography could be artistic. I grew up on Sports Illustrated and National Geographic and that geo has some lovely images, but it was not what I had thought of as art. and I think that was the moment that sort of changed things for me, but it was a long progress before I started really taking it seriously as an art form.

Raymond Hatfield: 52:47

What were you going to school for at that time? I was

Jeff Larason: 52:49

in communications, radio and television, which is what most of my career has been, in radio and television. But, class that I was taking in London was unrelated to what I was actually studying in college.

Raymond Hatfield: 53:00

So why is that? I'm always excited to learn about that at that point. Was that just something that you thought this might be interesting? Let me get these credit hours or was there something a little bit deeper? I mean, you had photography kind of all of your life, but I'm assuming by this point, it hadn't meant anything to you until this

Jeff Larason: 53:16

well, quite frankly, I'm not that deep of a person, so it wasn't anything deeper. I think it was just that that looked like a fun class to take. And I had a camera, and I was enjoying walking around taking pictures in London, and it just seemed like a fun thing to do, so I took it, and it just sort of sparked something in in me that I didn't realize was going to be there.

Raymond Hatfield: 53:35

Yeah. What were those earliest days like for you? Because I'm sure that you're shooting film at the time. Most cameras, did not have auto modes, all these program modes and whatnot. So you had to learn how to use a camera. Was that a relatively easy process for you?

Jeff Larason: 53:48

I did what I knew how to do with the camera and yeah, it was all manual. I had an old Ricoh. I couldn't even tell you what it was, but it was all manual and I still shoot manual to this day. All of my cameras have all the bells and whistles, but I shoot as much manual focus as I can as well. that's just the way I learned. it was a dark room class, so it was interesting to, learn sort of what I call the fundamentals of photography. it's a little bit like, with Photoshop and Lightroom these days, I had a background in dark room, which allowed me to at least understand dodging and burning and the things that, you did back in the dark room with your hands and wands, in the light, trying to make sure you were getting things right. So it was a good way to learn the fundamentals of photography by starting out with the basics and not having all the bells and whistles that we have these days.

Raymond Hatfield: 54:33

Of course, your first few photos that came out, did you just knock them out of the park or were there, so was quite a learning curve there for you. Where do you think you struggled most?

Jeff Larason: 54:42

I never really thought of it as struggling. I just enjoyed the process of taking pictures and, through the summertime, there was, I think, one picture that I took that lasts to this day. I have no idea how many rolls of film I took that summer, but it was, probably 100 or so. And, you just learn. You just kind of sort of grow and just assume that, you enjoy the process. I didn't know whether I was supposed to be good or bad. No one was judging my work. No one was seeing it. It was just me. And so, I didn't feel like I was struggling or trying to, rate myself against anybody else because I was taking pictures and enjoying them and seeing what came out of it and at the other end and then they went into a box and I didn't show them to anybody because they had already done the job for me, which is to give me pleasure with the print.

Raymond Hatfield: 55:27

Really? So you were taking these photos and you didn't show anybody? Nobody knew that you were rather taking photos?

Jeff Larason: 55:33

That's kind of the trajectory of my career. I spent 30 or 40 years photographing and not showing my pictures to anybody. My best friend in the world didn't even realize that I was, a photographer. and it wasn't, it wasn't until, another friend of mine who I talked to about photography a writer. She was an author and has editors and people look at her work and give her feedback on her, the novels that she writes. And she said to me, you should show this to somebody so that you can get some context to whether these are good or not. And so I did. I finally, went and I guy who was a professor of, I think at the New England School of Photography at the time. And, And we sat down to coffee and he looked at him and said, well, this is good and this is bad and this is, here are some things you want to think about and here are some things that might move you in the right direction. And I listened to him. That was really the moment that my eyes opened up to what you need to do to become a better photographer. And that's also the genesis of the YouTube program that I have, the Crit House. Because again, I think that there are a lot of people out there who are taking pictures, capturing images, creating, who don't have, an understanding of how important it is to show your work to others and to get constructive, healthy, thoughtful feedback. And that's not Instagram. Instagram, you show your work, people like it and maybe you get likes and maybe you don't, that's not constructive feedback. Feedback is sitting down, looking at a body of work and talking through what's there and what's not there and what it means and what it doesn't mean.

Raymond Hatfield: 57:12

I'm really excited to talk more about The Crit House because, I've watched number of videos on YouTube and really enjoy it, but I want to kind of go back to this idea of not showing any of your photos because there's a lot of listeners who there's the two camps, right? You either show every single photo that you've ever taken on Instagram because that's what everybody does. You don't show any of the photos because maybe it's self doubt. Maybe it's, whatever it is. Obviously there was no Instagram at the time for you, but what was it that kept you from showing photos to others?

Jeff Larason: 57:41

There was no one to show it to, It was me and I was married to somebody and then she looked at him and, she appreciated him. But it was a hobby. It was something that I did that I cared about. I spent a lot of time looking at other photographers. I went out and, read books and saw photography of the greats. I got an understanding of who, had meaning in the world of photography and in the art world. And, I tried to integrate that into my photography, but it just, it was never that, interesting to me to show it. And I mean back then I mean, this is the 80s, right? In the 90s through the process as well there weren't avenues to show it as much there were like photo clubs that were out there but they never really appealed to me for whatever reason. I went to maybe a couple of photo club meetings they were judging and sort of rating things in a way that just it didn't resonate with me, so I didn't show it. I didn't show the work until I had the opportunity for somebody to give me, good, constructive, thoughtful feedback.

Raymond Hatfield: 58:39

So if, living in today's world with the availability of sharing your photos literally everywhere, almost instantaneously, Would you change anything about your journey in photography? Would you continue to keep those photos like your own until you got to the point to where you did, or do you suggest to new photographers today to share your work as fast as possible?

Jeff Larason: 58:57

I don't know, it's hard to put yourself in a position that you aren't actually going to be in. I think I benefited from not showing everything that went out there, and I benefited from not trying to make every image something that is going to get likes. I just, I took pictures and I, the ones that I liked, I liked. So there was sort of that self analysis that you allow yourself. You're less concerned about the feedback from other people. Which is weird because I'm talking about how important it is to get feedback from other people. but it's just, it's, I love Instagram, I mean I'm all over Instagram, I kind of go back and forth about how much I post on it, but one of the problems with Instagram is that I don't spend a lot of time with the images that I see. Even my own, I post and I'm scrolling through and, spend a half a second on images, if it's a real banger, I might go, Oh, I like that and click and then move on to the next one. And that for me, isn't the best way to look at great photography and to think about it and to understand it. For me, it's looking at books and going to shows and talking to people. That's where you start to, understand photography at a higher level than you do on Instagram. And again, I'm an Instagram fan. I'm not trying to diminish Instagram, but I think it has its positives and its negatives and, that It's, a place where you quickly look at images is I think one of the problems

Raymond Hatfield: 1:00:09

Yeah, will agree with that as well. So then, if photography for you at the time hobby, and just something that you did for fun in your spare time, what was the reason for you to want to seek out specific feedback and get better? Because I know, as much as I like, cooking or lawn care, I'm going to get to a certain point and then that's all that I need, because if I spend more time on it, it's going to, consume everything. What was it about that moment in time or photography where you said, I

Jeff Larason: 1:00:37

Well, I think it's I think it had something to do with wanting to see where my photography stood in the greater world. and again, this is not instagram. This is sort of saying. Okay. Well the great photographers are out there and they are great for a reason Why is that? And how can I, come closer to being great? Now I know I'm not great. I'm an okay photographer, for an amateur. I've been doing it for 40 years. So a certain amount of time you start to develop some skill and you get better. But I'm, never going to be great, but I want to understand, I wanted to understand how to do things better and also, by the way, not just create better photographs, but create, meaning behind and not only an image, but a body of work and also to sort of understand what art is. what does it mean to create art? Because I, I didn't grow up in a world where art was an important part. You know, I watched sports, and I, worked and raised a family, but I never understood art. And so a lot of what I was trying to do was to understand art and meaning. I still struggle with that. I still struggle with trying to understand, how my photography can have more meaning and emotional impact on not only people, but on myself, you know, that has some meaning to myself. And that's, where I wrestle with it now. I don't wrestle with what the f stop should be, or depth of field, or how I process an image. I am wrestling at this point in my photographic life with trying to have it mean something, have it mean something to other people as well as myself.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:02:19

So when you look at your earliest days, let's say pre, sharing You had that body of work and then everything since then as well. How have your photos grown more meaning since then in what ways were they lacking before?

Jeff Larason: 1:02:33

Well, I think before, when you start out, or at least when I started out, and not having an understanding of art, I just took pictures. I just, you know, said, Oh, this is pretty. I like this, or I like the line, or there was something that, about the composition or the moment or whatever I just liked it. I did that and I did that a lot. I mean, got a lot of pictures that I liked, but then you sit down and say, Okay, well, I might want to create a book, or I might want to put a show on the wall, and do that is like the next step because now if you're gonna put a show on the wall I mean you can just put a bunch of 15 really good pictures on the wall or whatever the number is and they're 15 good pictures, but Is there a thread? of what those images say? Are they sequenced in a way that work together? Is there something that communicates to people the import? Or is there anything important in what you're saying in those images? And for the most part, for the first couple of decades that I was taking pictures, there was no meaning to it. I was just taking pictures. I was going around and I was documenting my life. I actually at some point thought of it as sort of my own personal visual journal. There was nothing important about it to anybody about myself. so unless if I'm gonna put something on the wall, the only person who's gonna come to look at it is me. And, my mom and my son no one else is gonna care. So I needed to try to understand, if I was going to, rise up to the next level, how do you decide what your photography means? And then how do you create more so that there's meaning to it? That's where I am. I'm still wrestling with that. I'm still trying to figure out Because that's where you become great, right? Those are the great photographers. They have meaning. They have, there's something that you look at them and you say, oh, that's not only a great photograph, but it hits me in my heart.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:04:20

What have you come up with? How have you gotten closer to there? Look, obviously we're not there, right? Photography is always a journey. But how have you got there today?

Jeff Larason: 1:04:29

I'm wrestling with it. I have Two or three projects that I'm sort of working on broadly. There's a street that runs through Boston. I live in the Boston area. The Mass Ave runs from, Dorchester through the south end, through Back Bay into Cambridge and out to the western suburbs. It runs through, some of the most run down, poor, decrepit parts of the city. And then also, just a mile away, go through some of the wealthiest neighborhoods in America, in the world. And that street is a fascinating street for me. And I have been spending time trying to show that street. It's not a documentary product. it's a sort of an artistic representation of it. But that's one of the things that I'm doing. And then I'm, doing another project that is now landscape, which is completely new for me. Cause I've never. I've never captured landscape before. I've always been a street guy. but now living in the western suburbs and I look out my window here there are trees and every once in a while a fox and a coyote will run through that's not street photography anymore. So, I've been working something that is, at least has some meaning to me on the landscape side and I haven't figured out how to do it tell a story with it beyond how it, that it makes me, gives me some pleasure. So for that particular project, I don't know. I like the pictures. I haven't figured out the meaning of it yet.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:05:51

Right. Well, hopefully you can figure that out soon. know, as you were saying that, I could only draw parallels to a similar situation that I'm in right now. and feeling a very similar way of like, but what does this mean? what does it, like, does this photo look nice? Yeah, but what's it for, and I feel like with landscape, it's very hard not having people in the photos. In fact, every time chat with a landscape photographer, I'm like, how do you add emotion when there's no smiling faces or eyes, you know, that we can just naturally as humans draw into and even they struggle like it's a hard thing. So I wouldn't beat yourself

Jeff Larason: 1:06:24

You know, I'm not, I'm very much enjoying the process. That's one of the nice things about being old, is you start to appreciate that things don't have to be done now. I mean, I don't have that much time left on this earth, if it doesn't get done, it won't get done, but I'm enjoying the process. I'm still enjoying the process of documenting the Mass Ave project when I can. So I've got, things that I do photographically that I, am enjoying. And I'm allowing myself the space to be able to figure it out, maybe I'll never figure it out. Maybe there's nothing there, but at the moment it's fun. And if nothing happens with it, I'll move on to the next thing.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:07:01

Hey, fun is, I think, more than half the battle in photography. Cause if you have a reason to get out, it's always fun, right?

Jeff Larason: 1:07:08

thing that I'm doing right now, it's a nighttime thing. And I only do it when there's a full moon. and it's, it documents the full moon, And so, I'm getting up at three or four in the morning and going out into, I was just out in Nevada last week. I was out in the desert in Nevada at three o'clock in the morning shooting the full moon. don't know if the photography is any good, but it was a fascinating, almost, this is going to sound strange, but it was almost a spiritual sort of occasion. I'm sitting in the desert. 30 miles outside of Reno, in the pitch dark, except for the incredible luminance of the moon shining down on this valley where I can see nothing but mountains around me. There's no lights of the city. There's nothing else except for the moon and the desert and me. And that was, pretty cool,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:07:55

Very different than Boston.

Jeff Larason: 1:07:57

Very different than Boston.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:07:59

Yeah, of course. Let's talk a little bit about the Crit House here because, as I said, I've seen a number of the videos, there's a lot to love about it. I think one, for a lot of photographers, what I found just in the listeners is that a lot of people love to watch YouTube videos because, there's always the complaint of I don't have enough time, I don't have enough time to go out and shoot. I don't have enough time for this and that, but by being able to watch others go through it, there's almost this therapeutic element to it as if they can live vicariously through these people. Right? And as somebody who I don't really get my images critiqued, I've just always been like. I take the photo. I like the photo. The photo is done, but I hear what you're saying of how important it is to get other eyes on your photos. So watching, you talk to others about their work, watching others talk about other photographers, and the work and, the five images that they love as well. It's such an interesting conversation that like isn't typically. happening on YouTube and especially in the photography space and most critiques if they are on YouTube are like three hours long, you know, your videos are easy to consume, watch and get an understanding. Like for me, they get me excited to go out and shoot. see it, I get the inspiration, and now I want to go out and shoot and be a better photographer. and I think that people need more, of this. I'm excited, to have more people, obviously check out your work, put all the links in the show notes for sure. But tell me, somebody, again, who didn't share your work for so long, and now you're almost like this evangelist for, like, getting people to look at your work. what have you discovered about, the work of other photographers by hearing, or just by being a part of these conversations?

Jeff Larason: 1:09:34

I have started to understand more the language of photography that being able to communicate about what your images are and what they mean is important for viewers to understand the context. I have said this myself and I heard other, people say it, and it's wrong, that I just want my photographs to stand on their own. I don't want to have to communicate, which would be great, which would be great if you were that great, but the reality of it is when somebody comes in to see your pictures. They want to have context. They want to have an understanding of what are you showing and that doesn't mean you have to write a book about it, but you need to be able to communicate and to let people know Here's Here's what you're seeing so that you give them a push in the right direction, and the ability to be able to communicate that is very important to being able to make a good photograph and a good body of work. I've also learned that editing is critical to success. A lot of people put just, they put photographs out, they put photographs out, I don't mean editing in terms of like processing and Photoshop, I mean editing in terms of not showing images and deciding that this one is not one that fits within this body of work. if you're creating a book or you're creating a zine or you're putting a show on the wall or whatever it is, that process of editing deciding what's in and what's out teaches you so much about your own, not only your own photography but you as a person and as a photographer as well. And again, so it's not, so much, you know, what I've learned about taking a picture. It's what I've learned about, that those decisions and actively making those decisions about your own work, is really what makes you a good photographer. And that's part of the process of getting feedback from other people because people tell you, well, this one works for me and doesn't work for me. And why? And that helps you to understand your own photography. One of the greatest things I've ever enjoyed about photography is when somebody looks at a photograph and sees something in it that I never saw in my own photograph. You look at it and you're, Oh, you've spent hours either in the dark room where you've spent time in light room and then Photoshop and, you know, this image, down to the pixel. And then somebody comes along and says something about it, and you go Yeah. that's fantastic I hadn't seen that in my own image and it helps you and it helps you understand the context the way that the rest of the world looks at what you have taken. Because once you've taken the picture, and once you've put it out there in the world, it's no longer yours. Other people are going to interpret it and make decisions about it. And so that's part of that process of getting feedback is preparing to show it out to the rest of the world.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:12:19

This is an area of photography that I've never explored before, and clearly need to, I love that idea though, that once you put a photograph out into the world, that's no longer yours. And it reminds me of, I think it's that Ansel Adams quote of, there's two people in every photo, the photographer and the viewer. And it's interesting to think about, cause It changes at some point, right? Cause photography is very much a solo thing. I came from the world of like cinematography where it's like a team effort and then you get into photography. It's very solo. But the aspect of the sharing, the work of getting work out there, once again, it becomes collaborative. And that, can be difficult because there's a lot of insecurities that we have because it's such a solo thing to create this image that, Oh, once somebody says a work is garbage. Are they saying that I'm garbage? Or are they saying that the work is garbage and it's hard to separate that? So one, did you struggle with that at all? And if so, what advice do you

Jeff Larason: 1:13:09

know, I, I didn't because, I mean, if somebody tells me my work is garbage, I'm probably not going to listen to that person.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:13:16

That might have been a bit harsh, but you know, like how we internalize things.

Jeff Larason: 1:13:19

I think people's concern with critique is that there's this impression that somebody's just going to come in and be mean to you. I haven't shown this landscape project to anybody but, my closest people, who I trust. But I don't know if I were going to show it to, a gallery that they would go, Oh, this is fantastic. it's very possible that they would not be very nice about it. But I have gotten to the point where I understand that if I'm asking for feedback, I should ask for, specific things like here's what I'm trying to understand about this, not only this image, but this body of work, can you help me? understand it, to improve upon it, what can you tell me that would make it better? When you go into the critique process, I don't think that the healthiest thing to do is say, is this good or bad? Cause that's not going to give you any good feedback to take you to the next step. So no, I guess, I mean, I know I went away from your question, but I think I never had problem with, getting feedback because I thought it was, it's always been important to me to try to understand what it is that I'm taking, and what I'm capturing and how to get better with it. Listen, I know feedback is very hard for some people. I know you create these things that are your, they're your babies and you love them so much. But I think, at some point just came to place where I realized, that other people have opinions and those opinions are, just as valuable for me to hear as my own. So I needed to hear it.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:14:41

So, how do we balance the difference between, cause I can ask my mom what she thinks about my photos and she'd be like, these are the best things I've ever seen in my life, right? Every single time. and that's like a false, sense of, accomplishment. So what advice do you have on maybe finding a community or finding people, who we can start to trust

Jeff Larason: 1:14:59

and that's a really good question because, I mean, first of all, showing it to your mom and her opinion. Incredibly valuable, I love it when my mom says it's a great picture, but she didn't understand what I'm trying to do, but she likes it and it makes me happy. So show it to your friends finding a group of people who you trust and feel comfortable with is admittedly hard, Like I said, I spent a long time not doing that and not knowing how to do that but we're in a time right now in an age when we have the internet and we have Instagram, I mean if there are people that you interact with on the internet that are people whose work you like reach out and say, Hey, listen, I'm trying to learn. would you like to look at my work? I'd love to hear your opinion and do a call like we're doing right now. there's nothing more valuable than like sitting across the table and having prints, so if you were not in Indianapolis and I were not in Boston and we could sit together and just look at these things and talk about these things and you can, you could say, well, I don't like this one. This one really works for me. These are the ones that I really like. But you can do that. You can do that here, you can do a share screen and I can show you images and you can show me images and we can talk about them. And if you can expand that, so you have three or four or five people who can get together once a month and do the same thing for a few hours where you show, here's what I've taken this month and this is what I've been working on. And, Hey, I'm thinking about doing this. I want to put together a book or a zine. What do you guys think if I do this? Talk to me about the concept and does that work for you? When I talked about, understanding the language of photography, that's part of what I mean is, just to be able to have that conversation and to understand how to communicate not only what you're trying to do, but also what you feel about the other people's work as well in a way that's healthy and helpful to them. Cause there's a big difference between criticism. And And critique, right? Critique is a healthy, thoughtful process. Criticism is, I don't know, for me, it just, it sounds mean. It's just, I'm going to be critical. it sounds negative, but critique is something where you, look at the pros and the cons and the positives and negatives and the meaning, and you think about it in a bigger way than just being mean and saying the negatives about it.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:16:57

I love that. I think that's what we all want. At our core, everybody just wants to win. To have some sort of validation to feel seen right? and being able to create work from ourselves and then be able to share with others. It's almost our way of, non verbally speaking to others, how we view the world. So, that desire to feel seen through that, I think is, real deep. Not being very familiar with the whole process of this, is there a question maybe that I'm missing or looking over? Is there anything that I'm not, asking that you think is really important about the process of critique? or finding people to critique? Is there anything like that?

Jeff Larason: 1:17:29

don't know if it's a question, but me the most important thing is try to figure out a community that you feel comfortable with. Just a group of people that you like and respect and admire and hopefully will do the same to you so that you can talk about about your photography and sort of say here's what I want to do and have those conversations and then to go out and take a walk Right if the other people of you like and respect their street photographers go take a walk You know go stroll around and see how they shoot, see what they do and work next to them. So you're taking a picture of with one person here and another person there, and all three of you are in the same spot, and you all get different pictures. How did that happen? And then you think about, oh, that's how that person sees, and that's how that person sees, and now you start Talking about that together and well, I looked at this and I looked at this and this is why this is meaningful to me. And this is why I saw this composition. It's just conversation, right? I mean, and this is exactly what you do. And that's what this is. This is why what you do is so great as part of your podcast here is you are giving people, something to listen to, to understand it. And what I'm saying is that, people hopefully we'll go to that next level, right? And then to get together amongst themselves and say, Oh, we've got, you know, here are five people in Indianapolis. Let's go take a walk. And hey, next month, why don't we get together at Bobby's house and sit down and show some prints, right? And now you've got a community. Now you've got people who just want to talk about photography. And, sometimes people come and go because their interest wanes and they do get, you know, involved in other things. But, you bring new blood in and have that energetic group that all cares about and understands each other.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:19:15

Is it possible? I know that you said, sharing your screen and stuff. We can do that online and obviously that's what you do as well on the crit house when you meet people on zoom there. but tell me the difference between, doing this virtually and doing it in

Jeff Larason: 1:19:28

Um, So that's a really good question because, interact with prints on a table. And moving them around and saying, Oh, look at how these work together, right? Here you've got four images that all look how these are just great together. And they may not be the greatest photographs individually, but as a unit, they're fantastic. And you get somebody else come along and say, Oh, well look at these, you kind of put those together and you start to see that process of different people interacting with your photographs in a way that you never would have. You never would have done it before. I mean, you might have if you really care, but now you've got this other from other people and you yourself get to do that with other people as well I mean there's value to looking at other people's photographs who are your peers and saying Oh, this is what works for me and what doesn't work for me because then you Start to understand yourself a little bit more and what you like and don't like in your own photography this group went for four years From the start of kovat until just last month when we got together for the first time together again it was so nice just to be able to do that same thing again. Now, on the other hand, the difference is online. You have the ability to share images beforehand and you can see things and you interact with them in different ways. So there is great positivity to be able to do that in a share screen as well. It's just a different environment. And the other thing is that, on Zoom, it's harder to, like, one person wants to talk and everybody's interrupting people. And so you can do that in person because you can have one conversation over here and another conversation over here between two people. And, so the in person thing for me, I think is, the best way of doing it. But, there's great value to doing it remotely as well.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:21:37

love that. Thank you for sharing that. That sounds like a blast. That sounds like something fun and something that I'm going to start looking into. Try to find a group of people around here who might want to get together every once in a while and start looking at our photos.

Jeff Larason: 1:21:48

Sorry to interrupt but one of the things is that the people in that group that I have worked with have grown. I Mean, they came into it as good photographers. We brought them in because everybody was sort of, we liked the work that everybody brought to the table, literally, and to see them over the years grow from the feedback that we're giving each other, cause they'll hear something to say, Oh, I should try that. And then the next month they come back with what somebody had said, try that. And you go, Oh, that's fantastic. so the growth that you see from people is just, it's beautiful. it's so nice to have a community where you're seeing people, become better because of what you're doing for each other.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:22:27

And that's so hard like we miss that so much online because people come and go because there's just so many people online. People are hiding behind screen names, you don't necessarily recognize when somebody's not there, or when somebody new is there so absolutely get that. it comes to, giving critiques. Is it easy to give critiques, accurate feedback on other's work. If it's a style of photography, that's not of your own.

Jeff Larason: 1:22:50

It's harder because you don't, understand it as well. Yeah, so that's, a challenge, but, your thoughts are still valid. So I spent 40 years doing street photography and, I didn't know anything about portraits portraits or landscapes or fine art photography or, any of that. But when I see photography in those genres that I have never done before. still can have thoughts about it and so trying to sort of put together what your thoughts are about something you don't necessarily fully understand still has value, right? Because, if you have a landscape photographer, right, who is looking for feedback and you're a street photography person, That photographer still needs to have input from people who don't necessarily fully understand landscape. Because if they put it on the wall, or in a book, not everybody looking at that image is going to know anything about landscape photography. those images need to communicate to people who don't understand it. And so when you ask before, about Your mother is gonna look at that picture in a book and she still needs to be moved by it and she still needs to Be impressed by it. And so if you're only looking to impress landscape photographers Then only show it to landscape photographers. But if you want Everybody to like your work and to appreciate it and know what you're doing Then you need to show it to people who may not necessarily Understand it

Raymond Hatfield: 1:24:26

Ooh. N

Jeff Larason: 1:24:28

I feel like I've gone so all philosophical here and I'm not that smart so

Raymond Hatfield: 1:24:33

ha ha ha No, I think it just goes back to Again, it's so hard, I think, as a human to like share something that so vulnerable, be vulnerable and share photos. and what I'm trying to do here is squash almost any objection that somebody might have about joining a group, right? Oh, I'm not a landscape photographer, I shoot street, I don't belong with these people, the opposite. And you perfectly encapsulated, like, we should be getting together even if we have a difference in genre of photography.

Jeff Larason: 1:25:01

I'll go a step further that there is value to having a critique group Where it's not even just photographers you can have bring in a painter somebody who does, etchings or drawings and I haven't done this before, so this is all theoretical, I think, I know that there are groups that do this. They bring in people who are just artists, you know, sculptors and from different areas of art. And now you're having discussions about, as opposed to just about photography. And that becomes a different conversation as well. And then I'm not saying that we should all do that, but that's the kind of thing that illustrates what you were asking about is, the input is a value from all sorts of different viewpoints. and by the way, think about that for yourself, your input is valuable to them as well. So it's not only their input to you Because it's a two way street when you're in these groups. It's a community, you have a relationship And what you give to it? is a big part of the process as well. It's not just gimme gimme gimme You're there to be able to help other people as well

Raymond Hatfield: 1:26:05

Well, Jeff, I don't know how to end it any better than that. I think that is both inspiring, motivational and obviously, very informative as well. So, unfortunately we are at the end of our time. I know people listening are thinking to themselves, I gotta learn more about this. I gotta get involved. So where can we learn more about you and obviously the Crit House online?

Jeff Larason: 1:26:26

My website is just my name. It's jefflerrison. com. and then the Crit House is on YouTube. if you just search for the Crit House, you'll find it. And we have, over the last, six months or so, we've been doing a new series that's not critique, that we bring in photographers to talk about the images that, influence their creative growth. so we call it my five, and, it's photographers that show five images that, when they were starting out and learning photography had some meaning to them. and we talk about why and, for me, that's been a fascinating conversation to hear, how people saw photography and grew from it and the images that had some meaning to them. So The Crypt House on YouTube and my website, Jeff Larrison, then on Instagram, it's Jeff underscore Larrison, L A R A s O N.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:27:15

All right, let's just jump straight on into my interview with fine art portrait photographer Brooke Shaden, who today is going to teach you how to start with a clear vision and work backwards to make your creative journey more focused and meaningful. Here you're going to learn the value of proactive experimentation over striving for perfection by moving forward through action experimentation and continuous learning. Brooke also encourages emotional detachment from your created work. As you're here, she highlights the importance of releasing your art into the world and then just focusing on your new creations. Brooke. I just want to know, when did you know that photography was going to start to play an important role in your life?

Brooke Shaden: 1:27:56

it was an odd situation because I knew it, not at all, and then all at once. Like, it was just like, a switch got flipped because it was like, I was a filmmaker in school and graduated and had, like, no indication that I wasn't going to be a filmmaker. I moved to LA and my whole goal was like, be a cinematographer, or be a director, or be a writer, or something. And then in the, one month of downtime that I had when I left college and moved to Los Angeles, I thought, this is the first time in my now adult life that I don't have a thing to do, or like I didn't have a job, or I didn't have school, and so I picked up a still camera thinking I could just tell the stories that I want to tell in a single image in the meantime, like before I get to my real life, and then it was like that day I remember making a picture, I spent all day on it, and all evening, and like trying to learn photoshop, and trying to learn photography all at once, And then that was it and I just like I didn't want to ever do anything else and I haven't Since then and that was like 15 years ago.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:29:07

So, you and I have a very similar story I too went to film school for cinematography, but uh Very quickly realized that it's very much a group effort and in that you lose some of that Creativity that, uh, that you

Brooke Shaden: 1:29:20

exactly why I don't like it anymore. Perfect.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:29:22

Okay. So, then this is very relatable. So when it came to, photography, visual elements were obviously very important to you, that's why you wanted to get into film. Were you taking any photos, like growing up, was there any indication before you picked up that camera to where photography spoke to you at all?

Brooke Shaden: 1:29:38

None. I mean, I. I had taken a class in high school that was a film photography class. I only took it because it was supposed to be easy. I was not good at school and I just wanted an easy grade. And I got the worst grade in the class actually. It was a B because they wouldn't even give you lower than a B in that class. And I was just like, I just remember thinking, okay, our assignment is to go take a picture of a tree in the parking lot. And I felt like everybody understood how to do that. And I just. didn't get it. Like I didn't see the vision of it and I was so confused and I did not enjoy it at all. And I remember we did one, sort of like assignment, the whole class, you weren't allowed to take pictures of people. It was all like inanimate objects or landscapes. And so I ended up doing this whole photo shoot where I photographed like people's muscles and then like people were digging their fingers into the people's muscles. It was really weird. And then I printed them and then I photographed the photographs so that it was like a workaround so that I, it was still an object that I photographed. And I just remember my teachers like me, I'm like, what the heck? Like, that's not what we asked you to do. And I, but all I wanted was to take pictures of people. And I felt so discouraged. Like of what photography was supposed to be. And so I just like, that was it for me. And I was like, forget that I'm never doing that again. But at the same time, I took a filmmaking course in high school. It was like a digital imaging, like take your little video camera around type thing. And in that class, they essentially said, do whatever you want. And so I made this really creepy film about my friend who was like going insane in an insane asylum. And she eventually drowns herself in a pool. And that was like the whole one minute movie. And they were like, this is awesome. And then it ended up winning this local film festival for like, just for teenagers, you know, and that was the first time in my life where I thought. Oh, I could be good at something. Like truly, maybe this is for me. So I went to film school and then it was only at the end of college where I was like, this is kind of annoying. Like I, I liked making films when it was just me and my friend and that was it, but not when it's like, like, 50 people on a set and yeah, so then I switched to photography and realized, oh yeah, that could be whatever I want it to be too. Like it doesn't have to be what I thought.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:31:54

What do you think that disconnect was? Because in, in your photography class, because today, when you say that, you know, the assignment was to go photograph a tree in the parking lot and you felt like everybody knew how to accomplish that assignment, except for you. Why do you think that is? Like today, if you were asked to go photograph a tree, I'm sure that you'd be able to do so with ease. I still couldn't do it. You still couldn't

Brooke Shaden: 1:32:16

do it? I'm telling you, I really don't think that I could photograph a tree properly right now. Like, and that's the thing is that I don't, this is why I don't really identify as a photographer very much because if you handed me a camera and said, We're gonna go on like a, a photo walk. down the street or something, and you're just gonna photograph what you see. My pictures would be subpar, like, to, to a really extreme degree, I think. And it's not that I don't conceptually understand light and composition and all of that, it's just that I have no interest in taking pictures. Like, that is not my goal. And so when I go out with a camera, it's not like, what do I see? It's what's in my mind, and how can I make that happen in front of my camera? So everything is prearranged in my mind and I know what I want it to look like. So for me, it's like there is photography is not, it's a disconnect for me. It always has been.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:33:09

Would you say that photography is simply the tool that you use to create?

Brooke Shaden: 1:33:13

Yes. And I use many tools. I mean, it started out as just a camera and it still is. I mean, I still, largely create with a camera, but I also sculpt and I also, incorporate like painted elements into my work. And, I'm a writer as well. you know, like all of these things, I feel like they're all just tools to serve this larger purpose of these ideas that I've always wanted to make.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:33:34

Oh, that's so exciting. So, when new photographers start learning how to use their camera, they think, I'm learning photography, but as we know, that's simply learning the tool. It's not until after you know how to use the tool that you can really start to learn photography. So, for you, learning the tool part of it, what was the hardest part for you to grasp to be able to create the images that you wanted to?

Brooke Shaden: 1:33:58

That's a great question, and I, this is, this really goes back to how I learned photography, because I did not, I had training in, in, you know, like, film cameras, like motion picture film cameras and stuff like that, but not a still camera and not a digital camera per se, and so when I came into it, I knew the basics, like I understood aperture, you know, like I understood ISO, those things I learned in film school, but I didn't know. I didn't understand exactly how to compose for a still photograph, I didn't understand exactly how to light that, and I did not know how to work my camera, so I'll give you a good example of like this, the first day that I started photography, really, was I had this image in my mind of like, okay, if I could make anything in one picture, what would it be? And it was an image where I wanted to I was going to be a self portrait where I was in the picture twice. And so it was like a clone image. And in the picture I was handing a ball of light to my other self. So it was like, I was sort of And the inspiration behind this was that my grandmother used to always say this prayer to me growing up. She would say, if I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take. And I thought, that is terrifying. Like, what a horrifying visual image for me as a child. And so I wanted to turn that into, an image. And so it was me sitting across from myself, handing this ball of light that was my soul to my other self. And so it, when I created that image, I remember thinking like, I don't even know how to. Put this camera on the tripod. I don't know how to trigger it, how to focus it. it was all just guesswork, but because I had this image in my mind, I knew exactly what I wanted it to be. And so I could work backward and deconstruct from there. And I find that that has been the single, Greatest thing that I have had to do in my career is work backward and figure out how to get to that end goal. And I think that a lot of people approach photography from the standpoint of, well, I'm going to learn this camera. Then I'm going to learn how to take some pictures that look decent. Then I'm going to learn how to make those pictures better. And I was working from the standpoint of, I want it to look like this, and I need to do these things in order to get there, and I didn't know what they were, I just had to ask myself, like, okay, I've done this thing, and I think that's going to lead to this next thing, and let's try to learn that next thing, and it took a long time, and, you know, when I say a long time, it actually took almost no time at all, in all honesty, it took a long time for me that day. But, like, I did end up with a picture that day, and I'm proud of it, and it's like, you know, it's the first picture I ever posted to my Flickr site, 15 years ago, you know, and it's still there, and I love that picture, and so I think that, you know, there's, there are definitely two methods of approaching learning photography, and I did it the backwards way, that not, you know, Very many people do, I think.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:36:45

I don't think it's backwards. I think starting with the end in mind is just not kind of the concept that most people, go for, because, it seems like when you look at step 10, that that's so far away, that how, like, I don't even know, I need to take step 1 before I get to step 2, and definitely before I get to step 10. but I think that your way is, equally valid, if not more so. Than just trying to learn because ultimately, here's the thing that I realized is that, and I realized this when I became a parent, you're never truly ready until you just do it, right? Definitely. And I think that in photography and in any sort of art form, it can be very similar. And I'd love for you to talk to that as well. But like, if you have these ambitious goals and you just go for them and then just figure it out on the way, you're still going to be able to reach something better than, well, let me spend a week, seeing what different. shutter speeds do and then trying to imagine what you can do with those. You know what I mean?

Brooke Shaden: 1:37:38

Yeah. I mean, I, like, I do not at all suffer from analysis paralysis where some people do where it's like, I don't overthink things. I'm very quick to take action to a fault sometimes, but I'm very quick to just do the thing that needs to be done. And for me, it feels worse to go slowly and try to figure out. Exactly what has to happen than to just try something and fail and then try it again. Like I, I would rather be in motion than in stillness. And so, for me, it's just normal to just plow forward and see what happens. And I found that through my career, whether it's learning photography or being a photographer or having a career. It's just been so much better to take that mindset of done is better than perfect because most people that I meet are so focused on perfect that nothing gets done and I just can't. I can't live by that.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:38:33

Yeah, that's uh, that's me. So proclaimed right here. Oh yeah, for sure. well I think it's one of those things and I'd love to hear your take on this which is that like um, and I've gotten better at this obviously over the years but it's like when we create something we feel like that came from us and therefore it's a part of us. So when we put it out into the world people are going to comment on this thing that we believe is part of us, and it's hard to separate. Do you feel that way, or is it easy for you to be like, No, no, no, that's just a thing that I made, that's not me.

Brooke Shaden: 1:39:03

Yeah, it's really easy for me to feel that way. I think that part of it is that Yes, it's a part of me, but it's one small part, and there will be so many more parts that I put out there. And I think that we, two things happen in my brain, which is, one, I know that I am not as important as I think I am. You know, like, my brain is telling me, you're so important, everybody's gonna care about this. But, I'm not really that important. And the second thing is that people have very, you know, Small memories, like if I do a dumb thing, nobody's going to remember it. If I do a great thing, probably still nobody's going to remember it for that long. you know, there's, freedom in the eraser that happens in life where like people's minds get erased, their memories, their, you know, what they, their opinions, all of this can be overwritten. And so when I release something, yeah, it's a part of me and it meant a lot to me in that moment, but tomorrow I'm going to get up and I'm going to make something else. And that's going to mean something to me too. So I can't dwell on. Yesterday's thing when there's tomorrow to think about, you know, like I think that there's just so much more Joy and connection when you just let something be and then move on from it

Raymond Hatfield: 1:40:05

Do you uh, I mean your following is is quite large you speak you teach people know who you are as a photographer people speak about your images How much weight do you put on anything that is said? Do you just try to ignore it all and just Keep creating or do you take any? I do

Brooke Shaden: 1:40:21

the opposite. Like I, I try to internalize everything, whether it's negative or positive or neutral. And I think that that's a little bit surprising because. it can be difficult taking negative comments in and, but I think that they're all really valid. my way of approaching art is that if I have made something and I have deemed it releasable, like I can put this on the internet or put it in a gallery, wherever it's going to go, then I need to, Take that word release and really think about what that means. Like, am I still holding on to something about that image that I feel I can't let go of? And if so, then yeah, my feelings are going to get hurt when somebody says they don't like it. But if I can make it and recognize it as this thing that I have created and I have released into the world and I have truly let it go, then it doesn't really matter what people think of it. You know, it's, just this thing that exists and, it's okay if they like it or don't like it. I promise I've had lots of both happen to me, you know, where people are really mad about things I've done and really excited and, and neutral, you know, which I think is even worse. I would rather somebody be angry than feel nothing at what I've done. And so to me, like, I look back at the images that I think are the most successful and they're often the most controversial images that people have sent me death threats over that people have been mad about. And it's like, yeah, but I made you feel something. And that I think is. a really incredible thing to do as an artist.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:41:42

Oh my goodness. So, um, the ability to tell a story, ability to, communicate a feeling is obviously very important to you, uh, to get somebody to feel something right. And in filmmaking, we do that through a story, through a narrative. Uh, you said that you do writing. That's where you, you know, you do that through a narrative as well. and, Can you talk to me a little bit about how you approach storytelling in your images, which are still and traditionally one off.

Brooke Shaden: 1:42:08

Yeah. Storytelling is, there's so many ways to approach it. And if we had five hours, like we could still be sitting here at the end of five hours talking about storytelling. So I'll make this as relatable as I can to photography. And I think that photography, photography sometimes suffers with storytelling because It's a very personal medium, whereas if you set out to make a film, for example, you know that there are going to be 20 people giving you their opinions and they're going to adjust the story and, you know, it's going to go through beta testing and stuff like that. With a photograph, you largely have the ability to make it by yourself. Maybe not all the time, but largely. And in that process, it becomes extremely personal to you. You have a story, maybe, you have something that, that meant something, even if it was just, I saw a leaf and it reminded me of somebody, or, you know, like, whatever the story is. And I think that the best thing that I've learned to do is to take this personal story that I have, maybe I'm creating from an experience or an emotion that I've, that I've had, And then to make that really universal. So taking the specific and then widening it to say, how will other people be affected by this? And this is like the most controversial art, um, opinion, which is that some people think if you make art, it has to be just for you, you know, like it has to come from within and all that. And I think that's great if it does. And mine does, you know, like I have these things that I want to say, and it means something to me, but I'm extremely curious about the viewer and impacting their life. And When I look back at my life, I don't want to think, I just made a bunch of stuff for me and then I died. Like, I want to think I made a bunch of stuff for me and then I made that stuff relate to somebody else and it impacted their life positively. And then I died. That'll be fine for me. So, you know, so I'm very interested in the viewer and in their experience of my art and not just my experience of my art.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:44:10

What does that look like? can you give me an example of a time where you had an idea for something, but you had to make tweaks? Thanks.

Brooke Shaden: 1:44:17

Yeah, all the, oh, all the time. something that I learned very early on was, I remember I had this teddy bear that I wanted to take a picture of, like, representing childhood, whatever, innocence and stuff. and I did. And I just remember that, like, to me, there was so much meaning in this. Picture where like this, I had this teddy bear. It was really, you know, like from my childhood, whatever, all that, and I released it and it was like this moment of like, oh, nobody's gonna know or care that this. Teddy bear is from my childhood, but a teddy bear represents childhood. So it doesn't matter that it was mine or if I bought it from a store or whatever. And I started to realize that whenever I felt disconnected from people's art, it was often because there were symbols in it or objects or wardrobe or something that I couldn't connect with because that specific thing doesn't mean anything to my life. So I became very aware of how objects specifically relate to other people. So using objects that are universal symbols like a butterfly, for example, being a symbol for metamorphosis or You know, a snake being a symbol for evil or like things like that, that a lot of people could understand. I started to rely on symbolism as a mode of storytelling so that my work, yes, it means something to me, but then how do I visually communicate that to an audience in a way that allows them to understand it too? And I think that that's how we break barriers of languages and countries and things like that.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:45:44

that is extremely interesting. And I appreciate you, you breaking that down a little bit because, you know, there is a lot of. push to create art that comes from you, that is like fully yourself. And I don't know if I've, I mean, I know that I've seen like a snake in person or whatever, but like, I've never really had encounters with snakes. And I don't know if I would have thought to myself, when creating an image, oh, if I need a, an element of evil, let's use a snake, like let's do things like that. But yet when you say it, It makes sense. It makes sense.

Brooke Shaden: 1:46:14

Yeah, well, there's you know, there's a great book that uh, well, there are many books In fact, there's one called the dictionary of symbols and it's really fascinating because you can look at you can look up I mean google is also fine for this, you know, Like whatever use whatever you want but I have this book that's really great. It's illustrated and it basically will say like, okay, if you want to use this object, here are all the ways that people might interpret this object. And I find that really interesting because you can start to layer your work in deeper and deeper ways, which is important for me. So like, I have these different layers where, okay, Instagram, let's say, and. People will scroll past it very, very quickly, and something has to catch their eye, and so, like, on a base level, something has to connect to them, where they can understand the image fast. But then, that same image might go to a gallery, where people are going to stand there for minutes on end, just staring at it, thinking about what it means. So there has to be more to discover than just that one thing that caught their eye. And this is where symbolism gets really fun, and tricky sometimes, where you don't want to layer a work with so much symbolism that People look right past it because it's too complicated to take in, but then you do want there to be something else there for them to discover. An example of this, I just recently released an image, of a woman covered in wax and she's sort of holding a whole bunch of pomegranates to, like, her midsection. And this was an image where it's really simple to look at. There's like not a lot going on. There's a woman, there are pomegranates, there's like a kind of a hazy sky in the background, not much else. But then when you really start to look at the details, you wonder like why is she covered in wax? What does that mean? Why is there fruit? What does that mean? Why is she holding it in the way that she is? And it all starts to come together to create a more layered story than what you first think when you see it.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:47:59

One of the things that I was going to ask you today was, I think at first glance a lot of your images can have this, element of maybe a bit disturbing or unsettling or, eerie, but the longer that you look at it, as you were saying there, it kind of becomes more relatable. And I was going to ask you, like, where do you think that comes from? Because I've looked at, maybe a, a woman with her, ribcage replaced with a, with a birdcage, right? Yes. Her, her torso is a ribcage. And I, I look at this image and I think to myself, yeah, same, you know, like I feel that I feel the same way. And I was going to ask you, why do you think people connect with those images? but that's, that's gotta be the answer, right? Symbolism.

Brooke Shaden: 1:48:34

Yeah, I think it's symbolism and, you know, it's about understanding that we are not that unique. Mm hmm. You know, we, our experiences. They can be unique, they feel unique, but they're not actually very unique. I was thinking about this a lot, a year ago I attended a writer's conference, and I was in a big class of maybe 30 people or so, we were in this like four day master class, and Most of the people in this class were writing memoirs, and most of the memoirs were about their health experiences, whether it was cancer or, you know, something else, and I remember the people teaching the class saying, like, I understand that this was a monumental experience for you, but Lots of people have had that same experience. So, what are you trying to say about it that's unique that will teach something to somebody else? And that's how I approach my work, too, where I think, okay, I have had experiences that are unique to me, but other people have felt the same way, even if they haven't endured the same experience. And you're going to find that they're doing the exact same exact thing. They know what that feels like. So for example, I create a lot of work about being a foster parent. Now, lots and lots of people are foster parents but not a great many people. Okay, like not, certainly not enough. And so, so knowing that that, experience is a bit unique to me, I have to think then about what is the emotion that I've experienced within that life experience. And, and that is something that everybody can relate to. The feeling of having to say goodbye to somebody that you love, the fear of not knowing what an experience will be like, the, understanding how to love without attachment, for example, all of these things. I can communicate to other people. And so how I approach that particular work that I'm making is by saying, all right, I've had this experience. Not many people will relate to it, but what's the emotion of it? And what do I want people to learn from it? You know, like I don't want this to be gratuitous where I'm just creating work because I think it's cool and you'll think it's cool and you know, like that for me doesn't satisfy the urge of being an artist. So to me, it's saying, well, what is the experience? Okay. For me, it's foster care. What is the emotion? It's learning how to let go. Now, what do I want to teach people? I want to teach people how to love without ownership. That's what I want to teach people. And so how do you do that then? And I do that through symbolism and I do that through this visual language that I've learned that maybe you'll understand if you look at what I'm making.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:50:58

Okay, so then people are listening right now and they're like, okay, great. I get how you get to that point, right? How do you love without ownership, right? What is that? How does that translate into an image? What is it that you're putting in the image that makes people feel that way?

Brooke Shaden: 1:51:12

Yeah, and this is a question that I am trying to answer right now, you know? Like and I think that that's the work of an artist is to say How? How many times do I have to fail before you understand what I'm trying to say? So, I'll give you two examples because I've, this is a series that I've, I've been working on for two years. I've started it like four times. I keep throwing all the images away and I, I think I finally got it this year. So, um, so one of the images that I made, I haven't released this yet, but it's a, it's an image where I took every stuffed animal from our kid's room, because we've officially stopped fostering. Just recently and so I took all the stuffed animals of which there were a ton and I basically built like a big pile of them in the middle of my forest outside and I waited until dusk and I lit the pile from above so it's like the spotlight on these stuffed animals and then in the image is me walking forward holding a torch and the idea here is You'll probably think I'm going to torch these stuffed animals, you know, and, and sort of, you know, it's a bit, it's a bit of a dark image, although there's Kermit the frog in there looking really adorable, actually. Yeah. but you know, the image for me is about questioning, um, how we all think that when you have a biological child or you adopt a child, like they're yours forever, like they belong to you for lack of a better word. And yet that's not a guarantee. You know, like things happen, people die, people go away, people end their relationships for a multitude of reasons. And I think that there's a false security in the innocence of childhood. Like this person is, mine and for me. And I don't think that's true. And I think that our love grows when we realize that there will come a time when that relationship will end, whether it's my death, your death, their death, whatever. or something else. And so this image to me represents sort of, like putting our childhood up in flames and recognizing that it's not permanent. And then after that I did an image where I went out to a frozen lake and I got all these, this is, I love this picture, I got all these pool floaty toys, like inner tubes and inflatable swans and stuff, and I spray painted them all white. And, I got in a bathing suit with a, with a swimming cap on and floaties on my arms and I, and I'm just sitting on the ice with all of these sort of like frozen pool toys. And to me, it's sort of the, the freezing of innocence of childhood, like trying to keep that feeling that we know isn't going to last forever. So those are some sort of, sorry, lengthy examples of, how I've been doing this recently, but I think that there is a real challenge to creating an image that speaks to us. to a very difficult topic, you know, and I think that it takes a lot of tweaking and figuring it out and testing with audiences and seeing what works. But at the end of the day, I think, you know, when it works, you know, like I did the series four times and it finally, like, I just, I've been staring at these images for a month now. And I, and I, I love it. Like, I feel like it's going to resonate.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:54:17

Now that you've gotten to a point to where you do like the images, looking back at that first series of images that you created the first time, what was it about those that maybe didn't? Hit the mark.

Brooke Shaden: 1:54:28

I'll tell you exactly what it was because I've been, this has been a big topic for me lately. I, I created those images. with this intent in mind that I had to make it very serious. And I think that it's tough when you, when your creativity is your career, because you try to balance how am I going to be perceived? How am I going to advance my career while making the art that I want to make? And there's this tendency. So I'm a conceptual sort of surreal artist, and There is not a lot of room in the serious art world for that type of work. it's a very challenging niche. And the type of work that you see winning lots and lots of awards tends to be, even if it's conceptual, tends to be very photographic in nature. Whereas my work is very surreal and illustrative in nature. And I wanted to create work that would win awards. So my goal was like, take this idea that I really want to create, but then also Try to do it in a way that like those curators that I really want their attention that they'll look at it and be like, Oh, that's a serious artwork. And so I created this work and it was, going to be called broken threads. And what I thought was, I thought I'll do it mixed media. I'm going to create these images that look super photographic, like totally realistic images. And then I'll take the paper that they're printed on and rip them and sew through them. And I was going to do all this stuff. And it just fell flat. I mean, and it might not have. That's the thing, like, if I had moved forward, maybe it would have been great and those curators would have loved it. I have no idea, but I hated it. I looked at it and I was like, this isn't how I enjoy creating. Like, I don't like looking at images like this, so why am I going to make images like this? And so it took a lot of, and this happens with every body of work I've ever created. I think, oh, it has to be this because then people will think it's more important. And then it, and it never works out.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:56:21

So just so that I'm perfectly clear here, uh, and again, thank you for sharing that example, because that is, uh, what I thought was so interesting there was that, you talked earlier about, like, I do care about what people think, but at the same time, like, I want to create it from within me and here you are creating. A series that in, like you want it to win awards, like you want there to be recognition there for these images and, but at the same time, they weren't good enough for you to put out. So there's this really weird balance. It seems like, or maybe, maybe it's tug of war. Like, tell me how you see this in your head about the, creating work for yourself and creating work for your audience, because those images that you created. You weren't happy with for the intended purpose, but were you just not happy with those images? At all? Is that why you didn't dedicate more time to them? That was a huge question. I apologize.

Brooke Shaden: 1:57:12

Yeah, no, I think that there is, there was a sense that it was wrong for me. And this is a really challenging thing because part of why I create in new ways sometimes is, I'll take you back to an example. So 12 years ago, I was at a conference and they had all of these, like shooting bays set up where there were like lights and backdrops and models and you could just go and like shoot these different people. And I was so put off by this. I was like, why would anybody want to do that? And no offense to people who want to do that. It's just literally a different type of creating that I am not, that I don't do. And I was so confused. And so I went to this conference every year and every year I was like, I still don't get it. I still don't know what we're doing here. And so a friend was like, well, but like, you haven't even tried you're just standing here being like, that sucks. And you don't even know because you've literally never attempted it before. And so I was like, Well, darn, that was a really good point, and so I picked up my camera and I learned how to use a light, which I was very intimidated by, and that was definitely part of my judgment toward the process of like, I don't want to learn that, I'm not interested in that, but really, I'm just scared of learning new things, so I learned it. I didn't like it in the end, but there was something to be gained from it. And so I never want to get stuck in that mindset where I think I know more than somebody else, or I don't think that there's a technique that can help me. And so part of creating that series that didn't work out was, well, what if I've just never given this a chance? Like, what if I make this and I love it? What if I make this and it's like my new thing that I just never would have thought would be my thing. and that's almost never happened before in that way, but I always gain something from it, and I think that what I gained from that, creating that body of work, I made seven images that I ended up sort of tossing out the window, but what I gained from that was an understanding of what I don't want, which I think is just as important as knowing what you do want, like knowing I've done that, I had that idea, I tried it, it wasn't for me, and then being able to step forward and say, but what could I take from that? From that process that was good and then applying it to what I started doing. And for me, actually going back to the example from 10 years ago is lighting. I ended up just in the last year and a half, maybe working with lights. And that was something I never thought that I would do. And I hated it. And I just was like, so against it. And in that series, I started to, I was using lights and it was the first time that I really got it. And so I took that and I, now I'm using it and now I'm, now it's in my new series.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:59:49

Is that one of those things where. You realized that there was an element missing from your photos, or why did you get in, why did you decide that now was the time to learn light after all those years of

Brooke Shaden: 1:59:58

being a dancer? Yeah, I did. I felt like something was missing, and, and I never thought that I would say that. And I still use lights maybe 20 percent of the time, you know, and not a ton. But I started to realize that, There was a certain look that I wanted to achieve and that I could not achieve with natural light, or at least not without a lot of Photoshop that I just wasn't invested in doing. And it's the same way that I learned photography. I had an idea and then I worked backward and Did the thing to make the idea happen and it was the same way where I had this image in my mind and I was like Dang it. I've got to use a light like if I want to do that thing That's how it's got to go. And so I did and I learned and it's been fun

Raymond Hatfield: 2:00:41

And now would you say that like you love light like is now light is an essential tool for your photography Even though it's not all the time.

Brooke Shaden: 2:00:48

It's a love hate relationship I mean, I still like I still turn this this light on, and I don't understand what's happening. I'm like, I've set the thing, and then I click, and then it doesn't work, or I click, and then suddenly the power's changed. Like, I don't know what's happening, and it drives me crazy. And this is why, like, I will never be a technical artist, you know? Like, I don't know most of the time what's happening in my camera. I don't know what's happening with that light. I just hope it works, you know? And, uh, And that's not a great way of creating, but when you're a self portrait artist, like, who cares? Nobody's waiting on you, so it can go wrong and you can figure it out. But, um, and there are, you know, there are definitely, I want to learn more. I want it to be easier for me. but it just never is. so light is like a love hate thing. I really enjoy how it's making my images look, but we're struggling together.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:01:37

The

Brooke Shaden: 2:01:38

light and I.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:01:39

I can, uh, I, I feel the same way sometimes, and it's just because, like, now there's just extra gear that, like, you have to move around and bring with you, and it's like, I'm, I try to be very, you know, one camera, one lens, very minimal when I go out and shoot, but it's like, not only that I bring a flash, I also gotta bring a trigger, and a stand, and some sort of modifier, and then I gotta place it, and it just brings so true. I

Brooke Shaden: 2:01:59

mean, I was out the other day in the snow, um, a couple weeks ago, shooting and I had my light and I had like a ladder and like all this stuff and I was carrying it back to my house and I live on this like massive hill it was really slippery and I slipped and fell on the road and like the light was fine the light didn't fall on me but the ladder did but I was still so mad about the light I was like if only I didn't have that light I bet I wouldn't have fallen on the road and I'm like this is an unhealthy relationship with my light like I'm blaming it for slipping in the road even though the ladder is the thing that fell on top of me so ridiculous

Raymond Hatfield: 2:02:30

But, you know, sometimes the most toxic of relationships create the most, uh, beautiful of art. So That can

Brooke Shaden: 2:02:38

be true. So, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:02:40

Do what you want with that, I suppose. But, uh, we touched a little bit there upon Photoshop. You had mentioned it. And for you, I know that editing is a large part of your creative process. And I've heard you say in another interview that for you, the editing process is the most fun. Mhm. For new photographers. I know that they struggle a lot with editing because in, you know, when you take a photo, once you know, you release your, your finger, the photo's technically done. Right. But with editing, there's no pop up that says like, great, like you did it. Congratulations. Your edit is done. There's lots of second guessing. Did you struggle with that as well in the beginning?

Brooke Shaden: 2:03:17

Not too much, actually. And I think that part of that is because I knew what I wanted it to look like already, so it was almost like everything I did in Photoshop was just trying to get it closer to what my imagination told me it should be. And that's really helpful. if you go in and you think about it ahead of time, and you're like, okay, I know I want a warm image, or I know I want to replace the background, or, you know, like, you have these goals in mind, then you can achieve them. and. If I go into an edit, if I take, this is my worst nightmare. If I take a good picture, I don't know what to do. Like I get it in Photoshop and I'm like, Oh shoot, this kind of looks okay. Like, what am I supposed to do now? I have no idea. So I, you know, for me, it's like. The rougher it is, the more paths forward I see to this end goal, and so, yeah, but I think that it's really helpful to have that in mind. Like, I know where this is supposed to be in the end. And I know that some people won't agree with that, and that's fine. Like, sometimes it's just a process of exploration, just like how people don't enjoy conceptualizing their images before they take them, because they're exploring with their camera. So it's a different method, but it does really help to learn Photoshop, first of all, because you've got this end goal, so you can now deconstruct what tools do I need to achieve that, like, what can I, what do I need to research to figure out how to achieve that. but then it also gives you a greater sense of maybe autonomy in the edit where you're, you know, Thinking, okay, I know what I want, and I can achieve that.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:04:42

Of course. So then, let me ask you, when you look at your photos from, you know, say 15 years ago, when you look at some of those first photos, visually, you knew exactly what you wanted the photo to look like. Today, visually, you know what you want the photo to look like. What's the biggest change? What has evolved the most? Between those two photographers, the photographer who you are today, and the photographer back then, is there a wince? Or is there a, ah, that's where I was back then, I know so much more now?

Brooke Shaden: 2:05:13

Yeah, I actually don't feel like I know so much more now. To be quite honest, and I don't, I love those, I love all of my images. I mean, even the ones that are, I have a few images that are so cringey that it's, like, Bye. I still love them, even though my face turns beet red when somebody sees one of them, like, um. Wait, wait, wait,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:05:32

no, we gotta explore that now. We have to explore that now. Oh, yeah.

Brooke Shaden: 2:05:35

Okay.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:05:35

Cringy because it didn't match your vision, or cringy because of the subject matter? Tell me more.

Brooke Shaden: 2:05:41

No, it totally matched my vision, but yeah, it's just, you know. Like, okay, so there's one picture that, I lovingly call head on stick. It's literally just like a branch where I photoshopped my head onto the end of the branch. Oh, wow. I don't, it's not a good picture. Okay. At the time I was like, I'm doing it. And then I did. and so it exists for that reason. Cause I thought it was good at that time. And so that's why I think that like, for the second part of your question, specifically relating to Photoshop, I've definitely learned certain things that have. made the process slightly easier. But I would argue that I could do almost 95 percent of my process, even today with like three tools in Photoshop. And I've been doing it that way since I started. So even though certain things aren't as polished as I would like back then, like, for example, I use layer masks now where before I use the eraser tool.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:06:34

Yeah.

Brooke Shaden: 2:06:35

And I see errors in my previous. It's photos where like I was erasing something and there's no undoing the eraser tool, like you've done it, it's, it's done, and where now I could tweak that and it would be better because of it, but would it be largely different? No, it wouldn't be. I have the same sensibilities that I had then and I feel really lucky, actually, that I, I, Part of it is, like, maybe I should be embarrassed because I haven't evolved as much as maybe I should in Photoshop, but part of me is proud that when I began photography, I had a vision, and I was able to get the images to that point enough that it matched my vision. And so I can say that then and now my images match my vision, you know, which is a good thing.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:07:19

Yeah, it's good to have that feeling of consistency, for sure. But then, this will be my last question for you. This one's gonna stretch you, hopefully. How do you see your photography evolving then over the next two to three years?

Brooke Shaden: 2:07:31

I love that question because I think that what I see is, and it's not even just photography, it's, Everything that I do, I feel like an artist's job is to just harness more courage in their life in every capacity. And what I want is Almost to go back to how I created at the beginning of my career, which was that I had nobody to please or nobody looking at it, you know, it was just like the weirdest darkest stuff that I was doing and It just so happened that people did take notice of that and that some people were really positive about it and some were not And I want that feeling back of like I'm going to make something that is going to rock your world. Like, it's gonna be so weird and so out of the box and make you feel so many things. And so I don't have, like, a specific style that I want to embody or a specific concept, necessarily. I just want to make something that surprises me and that might surprise somebody else.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:08:36

that was beautiful. I think, uh, we all search for that, but, as you said, kind of, it's the artist's mission to, do that in whatever way we see, best. to do so, I suppose. I don't know if that came out right. Brooke, thank you so much for coming on today, answering all these questions, being as open as you have been. I wish that we had more time to talk about all things story. you know, all things light, um, and all these things. Uh, but unfortunately today we don't. So, before I let you leave, can you let listeners know where they can find out more about you and see some of your images online?

Brooke Shaden: 2:09:10

Yeah, my website is brooke shaden.com. Instagram is at Brooke Shaden. I'm just all over the place, just out there talking to everybody every day.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:09:21

Now, next up, we have the one and only Taylor Jackson, a name who you will be familiar with if you have ever been on YouTube looking for photography help here, Taylor teaches you how to build confidence through experience and overcome those initial insecurities as a wedding photographer. I get it. I've been there. You're going to learn the significance of trust and maintaining a strong online presence through a well maintained website, engaging social media, and creating helpful videos for your ideal client. Taylor's also going to walk you through the value of embracing unique opportunities and continuously improving your skills by stepping out of your comfort zone and taking on various roles and projects to push yourself forward. Taylor. I want to read something from your website. Is that alright? Can I do that? Okay, so, on your website, it says, there's like a timeline of your journey through photography. And it says, March 2006, a friend asked if I would shoot their wedding on two weeks notice. It sounded fun. I charged them my standard rate of 200. 200. 200. 2007, I ramped up all my marketing to find and attract my ideal clients. That year, I booked over 30 weddings, totaling over 60, 000, which was enough to quit my job at the Outback Steakhouse. So,

Taylor Jackson: 2:10:35

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:10:35

The question is, like, you left a lot out there, right? there's a big gap between March of 2006 Can you give me, like, a 30, 000 foot overview of, what changed for you? was it, like, an education thing, or was it, like, a mindset thing?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:10:47

I was always doing photography. I was doing concerts and, band promos. so that's why I had a camera and I had the technical abilities. fortunately a lot of the concert photography things and learning to use off camera flash and like crappy basement venues, really does make the wedding transition a lot easier. You've solved all the technical problems and everything is just easier. So. I had no real technical worries about it. I knew that I could probably do the wedding. I hadn't been to a wedding, which was maybe the scariest part because I think I was a ring bearer when I was like six and then the next wedding I went to, I was hired. So I didn't know the flow of the day, which was a little bit scary. so that kind of solved that for me. I realized that this was definitely a possibility for a career. The issue with concerts and band photography was that while I love it and I had so much fun doing it. The paycheck wasn't really there, at least in kind of my small town here in Canada, whereas there did seem to be a wedding market. so I figured if I wanted to make money on my camera, that. I pretty much had to go into weddings. I think I was, Also at the time in 2006, the magazine industry was still kind of alive, but not really. And there was like National Geographic wasn't calling anyone up, maybe at that time, but not a few years after to like send them on cool trips and to document. And I kind of saw that weddings were hopefully an evergreen solution to me making money and running my own business. I think one of the keys for me was that I wanted to. Basically be my own boss. it was I did a 9 to 5 job for co op. I went to school for computer programming of all things and I did a co op job and I went and I sat at a desk from 9 a. m. Until 5 p. m. Every single day and I did not enjoy that. It was not a thing for me. And I was fortunate to learn that in college. and by that point I hadn't racked up a lot of expenses. I, my car payment was pretty much like zero cause I was driving like a 95 Ford Taurus. My rent was like 400 a month or something ridiculous because we were in a shared accommodation and I was able to basically put all my effort into marketing this. And as long as I was going to be making like maybe 3, 000 a month on it, I could support my life, which seems crazy now. But. That was kind of that, that college time I spent, I would say. Probably the entire year, on my website. And the problem when you make your own website is that you keep remaking it over and over again. And you have no idea if it's working or not. you keep revisiting your pricing. It's like, is my pricing wrong? Is that why people aren't inquiring? it turned out basically that I just didn't have the portfolio, required to at least get in the door with most couples. So I went out and I just started creating my own portfolio. over that year, I, I, Would pretty much trade my, if my friend's band wanted promo photos, rather than charging them for it, I would ask the members of the band, if we could do a shoot with their partner. so outside the next day or a week after whatever, we would go out and we would do a couple shoot. So my portfolio was just all, couples that I had met through the music industry. And that was enough to at least kind of give me some cool factor. I think also when you're starting, you kind of get the, that it's your. You're brand new and people feel like they've discovered this uncovered gem or something like that. which a lot of my couples felt that they're like, why are you so much less than all of these other people? That's like, well, I've done one wedding and, um, yeah, so it, it worked out really well. I was also fortunately kind of at that age where all of my friends were about to get married and it was very easy for referrals when you're like, dating someone 18, 19, 21, 22. There's kind of that space from, I would say maybe 23 to like 30 where, at least thinking back a few years, that a lot of couples would get engaged and get married. So it was a somewhat easier time. I think, if I was trying to start right now, I wouldn't have the benefit of those few years. so if you are listening to this, you're watching this and you're a younger photographer and you're like, ah, I'm 16. Like don't know if like a couple is going to hire me. the truth is it's going to be weird because there's this reverse age gap and your couples are going to be 24, 25, 26 and you're going to be 16, 17. And it's going to be a bit weird communication wise. but if you do great work, they'll be happy with you. And, it was, I think one of the fortunate things was that I started so young and I was ready for that time period where weddings just started kind of going absolutely crazy.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:15:03

Of course, of course. So, when you talked about like you went out, you realized that your portfolio was lacking, right? Uh, I guess one, like, how did you know that? Because it's like, when you get into photography, you think that all your photos are great, all your friends think that your photos are great. How did you know, like, oh, my portfolio isn't there, and then how did you, I don't know, systematically decide what it is that you needed to capture to build that portfolio?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:15:27

Yeah, I think I was definitely fell into the trap of trying to put everything that I did on my website and every educational thing that I read was like, you have to niche down and you have to pick something very specific and be that thing. And while I don't believe that's exactly 100 percent true, um, I think that you can obviously be a wedding photographer and do family photography and do travel photography and have a commercial side of your business. Maybe that lives on a different website, but It was, I guess I realized that at least I had to have a dominant part of my website be dedicated to weddings and to be dedicated to couples. so that was kind of the, the key for me that it was very hard to sell wedding photography packages with a bunch of concert images. It worked sometimes weirdly, but it was, um, I would say kind of the biggest, the thing that I saw as a gap. I also am very introverted and. Quite not that great with communication. So talking with couples and actually posing them and being confident with that was also a challenge. So I wanted experience doing that as well. that it was, I was kind of fine if it was my friends, we would go out, we'd do a shoot, we'd have some fun. But then as soon as it was a couple that I hadn't met yet, that communication Barrier was very, very challenging for me. And I think it came down to just lack of confidence in knowing what I wanted to ask of them. And once I started doing more shoots, I feel like my confidence came up and I became a significantly better photographer, especially on wedding days. yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:16:54

as you said, kind of like you, you just get better at it with more experience. But there also is like a bit of an eye as far as like how people look. Right. did you go through any sort of education or were you just like looking at other people's photos? How did you know how to post people?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:17:08

at the time there was no YouTube. So now YouTube has made, The startup process a lot better. at the time it was like Jerry Kionis was doing some video content and Chase Jarvis. And that was like it, there was like two people making videos. And I think that they were getting some, I think Chase Jarvis has talked about that. He got actual death threats for revealing the secrets of the commercial photography industry. so those were my only two video references really. And neither of them really did this that, um, that I, that I saw myself doing. So. A lot of it was just kind of self discovery and looking at other work and looking at magazines and like skate magazines and other concert photographers and seeing how bands were posed. And I took a lot of that into my early work and I basically just took my couples. On their wedding day and pose them as though they were kind of a two person band. that was kind of the beginning I've changed and evolved a little bit since that, but that was the starting and it was pretty much, I would say it all came down to kind of that. And then also playing around a little bit with lighting and getting creative. I weirdly come from more of a gear background than an art background, but I got really big into off camera flash for a long time and. Overused it, I would say, looking back now, but it was, something that kind of inspired me to go out and create something a little bit different and it definitely made my work stand out and, or at least be different than what everyone else in town was doing.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:18:27

How many couples do you think you've created, the perfect album photo for?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:18:31

Oh, and that day it was pretty much every couple we would find, like the grungiest locations, outside. There's a few kind of like pretty sketchy. Take out restaurants our, our core here. Yeah. So we would shoot out back those. So we knew like most of the, staff there, it'd be like, Oh, hello back again. Huh? Okay. It's weird. Stop coming here, please. And yeah, so I'm going to say I probably have like 20 or 30, like pretty good band photos. Um, Yeah, and then I got more into, so I live like an hour out of Toronto, and then once I got into Toronto, the markets are weirdly kind of separated, and once I got into Toronto and started shooting there, I was, had access to way more grungy backgrounds, and I was adding like textures to my photos and stuff. it was a time.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:19:16

It was a time for sure. For sure. let's kind of switch gears a little bit here. when I think you asked the average person, like, tell me a little bit about Taylor Jackson, like they're going to list. Obviously you shoot weddings, your travel photographer, you have a very popular YouTube channel. and you're also like an educator and you, you go to like every, conference. Right. And I think most photographers listening would think to themselves, you know, I would love just one of those, right? And you do all of those things and from the outside, you make it look easy. So my question for you is, it easy?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:19:52

I'll kind of partition it out as best I can. So for weddings, um, I think it's a very much full time thing that if you're thinking about that all the time, you will be more successful significantly faster, but at some point it doesn't necessarily become an autopilot. but. Most of the, at least the way I felt it, my, creativity just kind of wasn't there. So I was always looking for different things that I could do, that would inspire me to pick up my camera. And one of the things I started doing was I started doing videos as well. So I would do the regular wedding photography coverage and then, in kind of like the early, maybe 20, 10, I started trying to also do some video coverage. So I would do like a one minute kind of mini highlight for my couples while also doing photography and surprise them with it. And then by like 2012, 2013, I feel like it started to become a staple and I was doing kind of a three minute highlight. And at that point, my bookings kind of, I would say skyrocketed, but within the bounds of the, I had everything outsourced already. So, I wasn't editing my own photos. I wasn't editing my own videos. It was just that I would go to the wedding day. I would 50 percent of the time do an engagement shoot and have a few emails back and forth with the couple. But for the most part, I was kind of working like that one day a week. And I know that sounds like a ridiculous dream. but it kind of did come down to that. I think it's also the couples that I attracted as well. I always came into photography and the industry as a business, from the sense that I, I want to unlock as much time freedom as I can. So maybe there was some kind of pre planning and that, that built itself into, into my business, but yeah, I was working pretty much like the Saturday or maybe a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, if it was June or September and the rest of the week I really did kind of have off. I was uploading galleries and just kind of finalizing images, but my Finalizing of images is pretty much just look through everything and make sure it's all good. And that kind of became I guess the main income of my life. And then I started adding on other things that I wanted to eventually get paid for. So one of those was YouTube and doing travel content. We started doing a travel show. I think we actually did a podcast about this

Raymond Hatfield: 2:21:57

We did.

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:21:58

way long time. ago. yeah. so yeah, we started doing a travel show, which was kind of a personal project that I wanted to do, but I eventually wanted to hopefully turn a profit on it. And Nikon saw some of the episodes and we talked and we did, two seasons of a Nikon travel show. so yeah, kind of, full circle and kind of what we weirdly planned. I know you can't plan something like that, but, when you started talking to a brand and you're like, well, we want to do this, but we'd love to do this with your cameras. And we've already done proof of concept of it and it would be the same team running it. And they were very quick to say like, that sounds great. and then, um, When it comes to the education side, it's just, it's kind of all built in because I'm usually showing my real life weddings. So it's kind of, I record the wedding and then maybe I do a behind the scenes on the day. Sometimes I just run GoPro and talk about it later. If we're doing, if I'm doing photography and also highlight video and also doing behind the scenes and also trying to talk to the camera, it's too many

Raymond Hatfield: 2:22:53

So many things,

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:22:53

I feel like it, Yeah, and it takes, it actually takes away from the job that I've been hired there to do. so a lot of time I'll just run GoPro on it and then I'll do voiceover or, something in the studio after to kind of talk a little bit more. and then, yeah, there's some other secret jobs I have too, but, um, those are kind of the, the main ones I would say. And yeah, it kind of goes in seasons where summer, I would say, where I'm in Canada, Northern hemisphere. So like, I would say may until maybe October, I'm pretty much full time wedding photography up here. And then usually November 1st, I stopped taking weddings. so this took so long for me to be able to actually do, because when people are like, we'd like to pay you money to do our wedding and you actually say no to it, it's pretty crazy. And I take off from November, usually until May 1st. unless something very interesting comes along. I'm open to unique and interesting opportunities, but my regular wedding days that I do here, I just don't book them in the winter. And then we go and we travel and we do YouTube content, and that's also when all the conferences kinda happen in that time period as well, so that's why I'm able to go to those and I'm speaking at a lot of them this year and next year. which is kind of fun and also terrifying simultaneously. But, yeah, that's the, the weird business that I've made, I guess.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:24:07

What's terrifying about, going to these conferences?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:24:10

Oh, just if you have to speak in front of like 300 or a thousand people. Um,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:24:16

contact with them?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:24:17

yeah. Like for video, I have final edit over everything. Go out. I shoot something. I also never, I could never be like a person that vlogs in public. I'm never talking to a camera, like walking around the streets. my brain just can't handle that. so I'm recording things. I know I have final edits. So if I screw things up or whatever it is, I can fix it. and then I have final edit on that video to put up. Online and I get to do everything kind of myself, whereas when it's a public space, I have less of that and I wouldn't consider myself a great public speaker. I'm getting better, but it's taken a lot of time. I think I did my first, maybe like 2011, I think I did a WPPI, like a little five minute ignite thing where your slides automatically advance and it was not great. And I think there was like 5, 000 people in that room was really big. And it was not good. And looking back at that, I'm like, okay, it's cool that I've gotten a lot better. I think I also know the topic a little bit more in 2011. I knew what I was doing, but maybe I didn't know why I was doing it when it comes to, photography and the decisions I was making now watching back the tape of every single wedding I've done for the past 10 years, and making a video about it, I get to. Learn a lot as well and see the things I missed and hopefully like give myself more time to understand why I did things because on the wedding day, it's just it's fast paced and it's efficiency. And, yeah, so it's nice to be able to kind of sit back and watch that, I guess.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:25:36

Yeah, of course. It's funny because it's like, hearing, at least talking with a lot of the speakers, that, uh, just imaging this year, that was a common thing. You know, everybody's like, it's, weird to get up in front of that many people and they're all watching you. Even like, uh, Seth Miranda, he's like, you know, I do this all the time. Like I do this day in and day out and do this stuff with lights, but doing it in front of all these people, It's funny because it's like, it's wild. So, I understand. I understand. I think that it'd be weird to like do a podcast in front of people, you know? even though it's essentially the exact same thing, it's just like you and I having a conversation here. Just to know that there's like all those eyes, it does change the concept. Not to freak you out or anything. Sorry, didn't mean to, to do that to

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:26:11

podcast next imaging USA.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:26:13

go. Let's go. we get back to the, talking about weddings, talking about efficiency. as you and I know, weddings start much before the actual wedding day, right? Because you gotta initially get those clients. what are you doing? Let's talk about the lead process first. How are you trying to, build efficiencies, into, gathering leads and getting your name out there?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:26:34

so there's certain times of the year that leads tend to come in a lot stronger than others. And I feel like I used to say it was, I used to say it was January and then it became February. And then this year it's Like maybe the first week of April and the last week of March, which has weirdly become my booking season, I guess. I'm not sure why it shifted like that, but it has. so now that I can identify that, I know when to do all my paid ads. so that I do kind of a slow drip, like 5 a day all year. but I know to ramp up and to make some sort of video content or something that's very specific to the local area that I want to shoot in, and I Uh, and put that as a paid ad and promote that the other thing that I did, so now, I guess, to be like full transparency, when you're in the industry for like almost 20 years, it becomes a little bit easier to organically get leads, because you're probably a preferred vendor at a number of venues. and it does become a lot easier when. I was first, at least before I was even really a preferred vendor at any of the venues, what I was focusing on was just creating really valuable content for a local wedding. if you're a couple and you're looking to get married and you come to my blog, I want to be the most valuable resource that you've ever found specifically for planning a local wedding. I think every year I did a huge, like how to get, or how to plan your wedding in Kitchener Waterloo guide. And. It did very, very, very well. It organically did really well. And then if I put some dollars into paid ads for it, it did even better. so I would say that was probably the key for me. the other thing it does is when you do a, how to plan a wedding in your local area, you now have a reason to go and talk to every single venue that you're not a preferred vendor at and start that relationship and ask them questions. Cause like how many people does this room seat, the questions that no photographers are really asking them. And if you're all of a sudden on kind of almost the marketing side of a venue, they identify that I think better than just someone that creates content at their venue. if you kind of come at it with a marketing mindset and you're like, where can I help you? In Canada, December, January, February, people do get married, but they need more marketing material for that. So I identified that pretty quickly that if I do some shoots in the winter and I showcase their properties in the winter, those images are a thousand times more valuable than summer images for them because they have a ton of summer content. and they don't have any great winter content and winter wedding days are hard and challenging because usually the ceremony is like pressed up against sunset and it's cold. And, but if you do a style shoot and you get out there at 12 noon, where there's still some light for a couple of hours, maybe a little bit later than that, maybe 2 PM, and you can actually shoot on your own terms. It just creates a significantly better marketing piece for them. so I think doing that wedding guides, putting together styled shoots, connecting with other vendors, was also really, really important and just kind of immersing yourself in the industry. I'm going to say even to this day, pretty much all of my good friends are all in some way connected to the wedding industry, or they're running their own kind of, a similar business, like a social media company or something like that. So yeah, I think it's surrounding yourself with the people, to kind of put yourself in the head space and know that this is going to be a long term, that this is not just like a, I'm going to. Get one friendship and I'm going to make it next year. It's like really kind of immersing yourself in the industry and learning how to create valuable content for those people as well. that's also a way that I probably forged those friendships early on was that I had something of value to bring to them. Maybe we would do a shoot. Maybe we would do a quick headshot day or something like that, or branding photos, and it would begin there and eventually become proper friendships.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:29:58

Are you focusing on a certain type of vendor? Like, is it specifically venues and planners or is it everybody to like florists and caterers as well?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:30:05

it's kinda, I would say more general, so like pretty much everyone, I would say my early friends were just, it happened to be someone that owned a dress shop and the venues are always like kind of hard to crack because they're a lot of, at least, um, kind of like a florist is going to probably be one person or maybe one or two people, and maybe they have some staff, to help out, but venues are a little bit different because there's usually an owner that you've probably never met. And then. There's probably like a GM and there's probably maybe one or two people in marketing, but then also their role as sales. so it's a little bit more challenging to just kind of figure out who to talk to at those places. but over time, when you do go to weddings and you shoot at their venues and you talk to them, maybe that does become a friendship, a relationship outside of, just the. The venue itself. And at that point, I think it's pretty good. my wife, Lindsey, is also a wedding photographer, and she does family photos for, I think, pretty much all of the staff for, maybe 10 different venues. so obviously that's a positive thing for her that she's gonna be top of mind that it's not only that she's on the preferred list. She's kind of like number one. On the salesperson that's sitting in the room with a couple, number one on their sales or number one on their mind for who to actually recommend from this list of like 25 photographers or whatever it might be. yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:31:19

Getting on preferred vendors list is obviously like, an important thing, right? it's easier to get recommended. and I've heard that you say that like you try to shoot the majority of your weddings, like relatively close to you, even though I think a lot of people looking at your YouTube channel probably mostly see like, you know, helicopter on top of a mountain and things like that. Is shooting weddings close to you? is that by design as well? or is that just kind of happenstance based on your, SEO stuff? Yeah.

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:31:48

and shooting downtown is not a happy place for my brain. I don't have space. I like parking sucks. You gotta go to like five different venues. There's a hotel. You gotta find parking at than a church. You gotta find parking at and then a venue. You gotta find parking at. Um, it was very intentional. The venues that I enjoy shooting the most, are the ones that kind of just do everything in one spot on site. So I've tried a little bit harder to cultivate relationships at those places. I also feel like I create better work there too. I'm going to say maybe five years ago, maybe like 2018, 2017. I made a pretty conscious effort that I was no longer going to be taking weddings, pretty much with it. With like outside of maybe a one hour radius of where I live and that's made me a lot happier that I can wake up I'm not I'm not dreading going downtown for weddings every day. I wake up for a wedding I'm excited to go and I'm usually like two hours early because I'm not excited to go So yeah, it was definitely by design. I would say there's probably maybe ten venues that I shoot at Pretty much all year, which might creatively sound terrible for somebody, but I don't mind shooting the same venues over and over again. they're always a little bit different, conditions are different. Sunsets are different, colors. But yeah, I find comfort in knowing that I'm going in and I'm kind of like not an office job, but there's that comfortable element where I know a contingency for everything. And I think that that's also something that my couples enjoy as well, that they, appreciate that I'm at their venue pretty often that I know the staff and that I kind of can, figure out the best possible situation. If it does happen to rain, that I'm a pretty credible person to kind of make some quick decisions. so yeah, it was definitely by design. And, I'm very happy about it, but again, it's very hard to say no to leads when they come in and you're like, Oh no, too far. I'm not going to do it. yeah. And then the flip side is that if it requires an airplane, I'm usually also interested. So it's like within the one hour radius of home or airplane to cool location. yeah,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:33:36

I totally get the, you know, you go to this place all the time, you're very familiar with it. it does make it a whole lot easier. It's just not as much like mental stress, right? Like it's the Steve Jobs wore the black turtleneck every day because it's one less thing that he had to think about, right? You go there every day, it's one less thing that you have to think about. But then there's photographers like, as you know, like Sam Hurd, loves being in a new place because it opens up these like creative juices of things that, you know, maybe you've never seen before. Do you find that, do you pick a mix of these places so that you can get both? Yeah. Does that question even make sense? I feel like that was a pretty bad

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:34:09

Yeah, no, I feel like an interesting thing with Sam was that if you force him to shoot at the same venue every single weekend, he would find, he would give you a completely different photo set. Maybe the ceremony would be consistent, but. The couple's portraits would always be completely different. I feel like I don't really work that way. I'm very happy to kind of really reuse locations, and to just kind of do the best of what it did last week and then add a few things. So every week that I shoot at that specific venue, my work will get a little bit better. And that couple will probably get a slightly better, couple session from it. so yeah, I don't, I don't know. I'm, quite happy doing that. it's my couples, it's their only wedding day. I'm also very, usually it doesn't happen, but I'm also very aware that if it's a referral from somebody that was in the wedding party and, Maybe they're getting married at the same venue. I've had this a few times with family that they just had a connection with a hotel here. So all three of the sisters all got married. I make it a very conscious effort to do something completely different in that case. But if they're disconnected couples, I usually find that the more efficient the, at least the photo process can be for the couple and for the family and for the wedding party. The more efficient that can be, the happier they are. And by shooting there over and over and over again, you really kind of get that efficiency dialed and you can do a couple of session in six or seven minutes and get them back to the wedding day, which I think they really appreciate.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:35:25

Yeah, no, of course, yeah. Everybody feels weird in front of a camera anyway, so. the shorter you can make it, the better. so then when you, say, travel to a new location, do you spend time trying to get familiar with it, or are you comfortable enough with weddings where you can just kind of go with the flow?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:35:38

I'm usually comfortable enough and I also know that even if I do scout the day before, maybe I'll go and I'll make sure the sun's not going to be in the worst spot ever for the ceremony. So the next day, I can kind of be like, Hey, can we set up three feet to the left out of this tree? So one of them isn't in the blinding sun and one is in the, in the shade. I'll have a kind of a quick look like that, but then also I know that the conditions are usually going to be completely different, the next day. So yeah, I'll go for a walk around. I'll maybe find a few locations that I think are interesting. and I'll keep those in my mind. And if we have time to get to them, awesome. If not, I'm usually pretty good with just kind of finding good light. That's always what I'm looking for. First is if I can find good light and an average background and the couple looks amazing and the background is kind of like mid, I'm fine with that. But. If I have found an amazing background location, I'm trying to make it work with a couple and then maybe I have to bring an off camera light to compensate for some lighting that's just not going my way and they don't end up looking as good in that picture. I would say that's a less valuable photo for them overall, especially when I'm just kind of the one picking random locations at their venue. so yeah, always looking for light first.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:36:41

yeah, yeah, yeah. let's go back for a minute, back to the, kind of the booking process. because emails are things that I get questions about all the time. Like, what do you email your clients and in between the year that they've paid you, that they've booked you and like their wedding date. So, how do you handle that? Do you have an efficient process or are you, emailing them weekly with updates? Um,

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:37:01

so an interesting thing happened. so I'm a part owner of a company called focal, which builds websites and does some other things. And when I joined them, Lachlan, the CEO was like, you need to list your pricing public. And I was like, what? That's crazy. I can never do that. And then I did it. And I realized the, the couples that I attract now don't care for any additional communication. so it used to be that I would go back and forth and I would send kind of like, Hey, here's five things you need to know about getting ready for your engagement session. And now my couples come in, they hit the request a book button and I get an email. I would say 50 percent of the time we do a call. no in person meetings. I haven't done an in person meeting since like 2020 now, I guess. And the process is way more simple. And I would say back and forth email for, from booking a couple, to the wedding day is maybe like 14 email total. So like seven from them, seven from me. so I'm very, very happy that that was something that Lachlan forced me into. But yeah, he was like, basically the, the way our websites work is that like, if you do this, you'll get bookings. Cause like everything kind of funnels to that. and the idea I think for him was that it's, kind of like the, car, I don't know, like the used car lot or maybe new car lot, it could be a new car where your couple, when they walk in, if they know exactly what they want, they know the exact like trim model that they know everything that they want of the car, like they go in and they're like, can I have this? And then there's this weird sales process. It's just not so good. So now it seems like the more streamlined I make it, the more streamlined my couples become. And I don't know if that's like a, maybe like that I'm training them in some way that like, we don't need to communicate that much and it's fine. but yeah, my communications come down drastically. So it's pretty much like, if they do an engagement session, which is again, like becoming increasingly more rare for me, we will kind of schedule a time usually in that, in those first few, um, email, um, Pick a time and then I'll send them like a, Hey, excited to meet up at this exact location at this time again, see you tomorrow. after that I send them the gallery from that. And then it's usually like a month before the wedding. when final payments also do, that I just kind of asked for the final schedule. And again, there's comfort in working at the same venues because I know pretty much the schedule that if there's ceremonies at 4 PM, I know that I'm probably starting at noon and I'm going to be there until 10. So, yeah, like going through the schedule to make sure there's no kind of red flags in it. but other than that, it's pretty fine tuned now, which is kind of nice. Um, I appreciate that. I would say, yeah, like in terms of email, it's probably like a 500 percent decrease since I changed my pricing, um, on my site.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:39:39

So then let me ask, do you think that is crazy? Do you think that, that's possible because of how established you are as a wedding photographer in your location? Or do you think that a new photographer could implement putting their pricing on their website and seeing the exact same thing?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:39:55

I think it's going to be location specific perhaps, and I'm not going to pretend that I know every single market in the world. I guess I should have prefaced that all with it has worked for me specifically here. I think one thing that I do have that I've been in the industry for a long time is, Basically trust as well. And also doing all this, YouTube stuff, people know that I exist. I feel like a lot of the early followups I would get from couples, in my, my younger days as a photographer, we're pretty much people pinging me to be like, you still exist, our wedding still on your calendar. Right. And it was just kind of like unnecessary communication. Whereas now I feel like there's a little bit more trust there. so I think that's probably a key part of it as well. so yeah, I think that if I was. younger in the industry, I would be doing as many things as I possibly could to just create as much trust as I possibly could, both on my website and on social media. if I'm doing like YouTube video content, I'd be showing up to venues and doing venue tours and walking people through kind of what their wedding could look like. And, maybe involving the venue staff on that as well. those would be kind of those things that I would be doing. So people trust me and maybe communicate a little bit less, but then also are a heck of a lot more likely to book, which would be kind of more key at that time. Um, but yeah, I ran my, like starting at rate on my website from like 2006 or 2005 until, um, Pretty much I joined with a focal and then that's been very nice time. So, yeah, it worked for me, but again, that's a, I don't know everyone's exact market and exactly what's going to happen if you try that. So maybe split test if you can.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:41:26

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do it. Do it for one month. Turn it off for the next. it just might be scary. I think for a lot of new photographers to know that their emails are going to take a big dip right by posting all of your, pricing out there. So I appreciate you sharing that, just to try it out. let's move forward to the actual day of the wedding. we've conquered the booking process, the time up until the wedding. Let's talk about the wedding. if efficiency is the goal for you at a wedding, and you're doing two jobs most of the time, being a photographer and videographer, doing the hybrid coverage, how do you, like, Some people show up with a ton of gear to a wedding for every possible situation. Some people show up with only, you know, 35, 85, and then that's it. As far as gear goes for you, what do you bring into a wedding to ensure that you can capture it all?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:42:09

So I'll also say when we do video, we're only doing highlight coverage. so we're basically making them a music video. so we're not doing like full, like tripod, three cam ceremony.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:42:18

Are you worried

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:42:19

an I tried not to do that. no audio typically, unless they really want it. I discovered something weird with, with audio when I included it one time as a bonus, that. People don't like the sound of their voice and it's a little jarring whenever the video opens with like, with their voice and they're like, ah, I don't know if I like that. I realized that maybe that's not a value add that that's maybe if they didn't want it, maybe that's a value they don't want. So yeah, we just basically make a music video. So I shoot everything with the same camera. I just switch between photo and video all day and I bring everything in. it's like a peak design, whatever the messenger bag is. and everything fits in there. I bring two cameras. I bring, Tamron 35mm 150mm has been like amazing for ceremonies and you can obviously shoot the entire day with it, but it's just crazy that one lens could just kind of like basically do everything that I need. so I'll have that for whatever part of the day I need it for. and then other parts of the day I'm usually either on a 35mm or an 85mm Pretty much all day, 85mm for most of the reception, 35mm for getting ready. maybe some portraits. and then I have a 20mm in my bag as well as just a safety in case it's, it's always a cake cut that it's in like the stupidest spot and you're pressed up against the wall. and you just need a wider lens. So I have a 20mm for that. I'll use that for five photos of the day, unless the party is crazy, then I'll use it for more. but yeah, that's it. So how many is that? Five, four

Raymond Hatfield: 2:43:37

Something like that. Real quick though, what do you mean if the reception is crazy, you'll use the 20 more?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:43:43

just like if the crazier the party gets, the wider I usually get. if there's five people, slow dancing on the dance floor, I'll probably be at 85 to make it look pretty. But if it gets like crazy and everyone's on the dance floor and it's a proper party right off the start, I'll usually get a little bit wider to kind of just capture all of that. I feel like it just like, I guess it's also comes down to the couple that if you know, it's going to be a party party, That I will probably want to capture that a little bit more. And I might do some flash with drag shutter. Whereas if it's a more calm beginning to the dancing section of the day, um, I'll usually go kind of bounce flash and, make things look a little bit, I don't know, maybe slightly prettier than real life. yeah,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:44:22

I gotcha. So, what about, lighting gear, like you just said? you bring in multiple flashes, you got all the modifiers, or what does it look like?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:44:29

yeah, usually one flash. So I've, I also have backups of all of this in my car as well. so I'm usually one flash, speed light and I think I'm on the Godox. V1 might check out the V pro, the new one. I'm on that pretty much all day, but with the high ISO capabilities, the cameras now, and the fact that I'm also shooting photo and video, for if my settings are set up for off camera flash and I'm switching between photo and video, it's a little clunky. I could probably do second camera as photo camera and one is video camera, but I find that most of the venues, at least that I'm shooting at, the quality of light is good. Just sometimes it's very dim. so sometimes I'll have to be up around like 10, 000 ISO, which I think is fine with current camera models. If I was shooting on my Nikon D 750, maybe I wouldn't push it that far, but, I'm pretty happy to go ambient. Um, until there's just like a stupid pot light, like right above the podium or something. We'll just move the podium actually. we won't change the day too much, but if, if it's a three to four foot move of something that doesn't really matter, we'll try to set that up. And then if we are doing kind of that full rolling coverage of speeches, we'll have a Stella Pro. LED Light so it's just a constant light, that we'll set up kind of as a spotlight in the back. we'll also use it sometimes for dancing as well, if it's a very, very dark dance floor. but yeah, I would say every third wedding I'm probably using flash or some sort of off camera light. And then the other ones, the other two, I'm pretty much going ambient all day. again, you need the lenses to allow you to do that. some nice f1.4 f1.8 glass but yeah, I've been pretty happy overall.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:45:59

So, you said every two or three weddings, you'll use flash. That's just because the quality of light is, is different between venues or weddings time of day.

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:46:07

Or like getting ready location. Maybe it's like really side lit and there's just a bunch of like incandescent lights on and it's like really kind of mixed light. but if everything is consistent and good, I know the limits. So maybe test and see what your comfort level is. AI has a lot of good solutions for reducing noise now, which is nice. But, yeah, I would, say that most of my weddings I'm pretty much ambient. For the entire day, maybe the dancing part of the day. at that point I have to bring it to a flash at most weddings. Maybe, maybe I lied. I'm sorry. Um, at that point I'll usually have, yeah, I'll usually have a flash. but then also we're typically only there for first dances and if they have like a nice lighting setup, like the DJ brought some proper stuff that he kind of just does my three point lighting for me, like, that's awesome. I'll take that. and that's also what the day looked like as well, which I'm, I do my best to be conscious of that if they. Did the lighting design and they talked with the venue and this is how they wanted it set up. I don't wanna override all that just to make more light and to bring my ISO down. So I'm gonna do my best to kind of incorporate the day that they've spent the past, like year or two putting together. I'm gonna do my best to kinda capture that for them.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:47:10

Yeah, of course. So, in a wedding day, would you say, how many photos do you think you take in a full wedding day? Right.

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:47:19

like, I would say 4,000 would be like a high day. And now 4,000 is like a regular day, 4,000 images. And I will typically deliver, somewhere around like 600, 700. And the problem now with mirrorless is that everything is so like bang on perfect that it's like almost challenging to get rid of stuff. But I, I am a little more conscious to just be like, I don't need five of this scene when this one is clearly the best photo. same with family photos as well. And AI calling helps out with that, that any blinks just disappear. Any kind of softer photos, can also disappear pretty quickly. So yeah, probably 4, 000 to 7, 000 images on a wedding day, I would say. and my weddings are typically about eight hours. So if we're doing like a multi day event, obviously it's going to be different, but kind of that eight hour day usually fits into kind of that, that frame.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:48:03

Yeah. How important is it for you to, get it right in camera versus, let me just get the shot and I can do whatever I need to and post afterwards?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:48:14

I shoot video too, so I have to get it right in camera. I have no leverage. I have some, but I can't change white balance. I'm not shooting raw video. so I would say my camera is pretty much always set up that, I would say most weddings. This also comes from doing over a thousand weddings in my career. I would say that most weddings, if I just delivered the JPEGs, I would be pretty happy with that. so I shoot everything pretty much as like final delivery. I also shoot all my video with a burnt in look, which I'm sure cinema people make some cringe a bit.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:48:42

They'll get over it.

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:48:43

I, yeah, I just shoot everything exactly kind of as I want it to be. and then I think that comes from at least on the photo side, I think that came from the. My offsite backup used to be JPEGs only, because my internet sucked and I couldn't upload raw files and I didn't want to convert to DNG as an upload. so for the first like 10 years of my business, I basically had JPEGs as my backup that were offsite and I wanted those to be deliverable if I ever needed them. So I shoot raw JPEG in my camera and I think I was shooting like the fine quality JPEGs. And, yeah, there's, there's been times. The couples will reach out from like 2008 and they'll be like, Hey, do you sell our wedding photos? And I'll be like, yeah, they are in a drive, but like, what do you need? And if it's like, Oh, we just need like this one photo. I'll check out the JPEG. That's still backed up online. I'm like, ah, that's, that's fine. And then I'll maybe add a little something extra to just kind of fit what I think I was probably doing at that time, I've been pretty happy. Um, I guess it's also like a fun little game, trying to get it like as right as you can in camera and it makes you happier. And if your couples happen to catch a glance of it, also happier, I

Raymond Hatfield: 2:49:43

Yeah, there's a I once had a photo that I knew I had to intentionally underexposed because there was so much like beautiful sky detail and their reaction was so great in the photo, but they were, dramatically underexposed. But when I showed them the back of the camera, they were like, Oh, like, you know, not knowing, uh, the power of editing and what you could do, bringing up the shadows and post. But, that reaction, was bad. So yeah, getting it right in camera. It's always, uh, always good to show them the, uh, the good

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:50:10

that would be a situation though. Like if you are technically in a kind of box into a corner, um, that, you know, you have to shoot like that then. Yeah. but again, like AI editing, we'll just fix that and make it look like however you fixed it last

Raymond Hatfield: 2:50:21

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. knowing what can be done. not everybody fully understands that. So let's go ahead and talk about editing then because, I know that, editing, interestingly enough, I remember in our last conversation, you said that like very early on, you knew that you were going to hire, an editor for all of your photos. And like, to me, that's about as efficient as it gets. Right. tell me about the decision to do that and kind of where that process is now.

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:50:43

Yeah. It's been, a bit of a journey. I began using a company, and then I started, I started I think I switched to a real human being. she was like, Hey, I'm open for editing services. And then she got kind of overcapacity and I was, I went back to another company. that was just like, basically at that point I was able to upload, DNG files and they would edit from those and that lasted for a few years. I think I bounced between all of the major, like outsourcing official companies in the wedding. Um, Industry. And then I eventually, went back to using a real human being because it was just a little bit easier because it was my roommate. so that was very nice and very easy. And now I am using imagine, which has been kind of like the easiest that I don't have to send files anywhere. I guess I send files to their service and it's just done though. but usually the night of the wedding, I am, I would say my wedding process now is that I will go, I will do the wedding. And I will come home and by that point, I've usually sat down at dinner and I've actually called through most of my images. so I've called all the way to dinner and as my images are loading into my computer here, I go through and I select the last, maybe two hours of coverage. And by that point, I put them in a Lightroom catalog and then send them to Imagine and go to sleep. And by the time I wake up in the morning, It only takes like 10 minutes, but, I just go to sleep. I wake up in the morning and I finalize the gallery and now my offsite backup is a finalized gallery, which makes me so, so happy. so yeah, there's positives and negatives to everything. I think working with a real human being is very nice. especially when there's trust and you know that it's a final, final gallery, whereas there'll still be some tweaks that I might have to make, on my images when they come back now. But yeah, I think I was hesitant at the beginning. I'm like, there's no way that this pattern recognition system could just figure it out and just like edit for me. And it did. So, yeah,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:52:31

That is a scary thing, right? to give up control. and I know that a lot of, newer photographers are, I guess one, there's this idea that if you outsource your editing, you're removing part of your creative process, like who you are as a photographer, but also like from having shot weddings for a number of years, like I understand, there's also like a business element to it. Talk to me about that. like share with me as somebody who has outsourced your editing for years. was it hard for you to give up that control as well?

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:52:57

I think so. I feel like now it's almost come back that I have more control over it. Cause I do see, the final gallery, but in Lightroom and I export it so I can actually go through and change things out. Whereas before I would just be getting JPEGs back and that would be the final gallery. And if I had any tweaks I could kind of help or like I might have to go back to the raw file and it was a little clunky. so I would say overall I feel like I'm kind of more in it now. also the profile that you build is based on like your past editing. So it's basically any way that you would have edited a photo. it will just see like, okay, last time you were in the last five times, you were in a backlit situation. This is exactly where you put the exposure and the white balance and it will just. Sync that new file that it's seeing for the first time, to what you've done in the past. so I think that's also kind of helpful cause it's based on my edits. So it's not like I'm just like clicking like an auto button in Lightroom and it's just going. it's something that I've spent the past like bunch of years building. or at least building the, the content that the system interprets. But yeah, I would say I'm fine with it. but there's definitely. there's probably like a one year learning curve, or maybe a one year window where you're almost kind of forced into it. And if you want to continue to actually have a life outside of your business, if you're shooting like 30, 40, 50 weddings a year, I don't think that you can do that. you have to hire someone and the faster you can get comfortable with that, the faster you are able to spend that time on marketing and actually scale your business, and make more money, which allows you to hire maybe more people. Maybe you start hiring associate shooters to deal with the volume cause you're so good at marketing and you're now getting thousands of leads a year. yeah. So I would say that was something that I was, I knew it was going to be a thing. so maybe I. I set myself up to know that I was going to be okay with it pretty early on. But yeah, it's, a huge, a huge part of my business, I would say. And the reason that I'm able to kind of do all the YouTube stuff and, to have a life in the summer as well, which is kind of nice.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:54:46

Yeah, must be nice to, have those. I appreciate you sharing everything that you did today in terms of your whole workflow sharing why, efficiency is important as well as how you're doing it because, I think getting over the stress of, Like for one just learning your camera but then Knowing that then you want to get into business and all the things that come along with that and you got to be all the places, you know all at once all the social media profiles everywhere all the time it's difficult. So, just hearing a little bit about your backstory I know has really helped me and I I know that it's going to help the guests as well So, taylor before I let you go let us know if you know those listening have never heard of you They have no idea who you are what it is that you're doing. Where can we find you online? You

Taylor Jackson (2): 2:55:25

YouTube is probably the best spot. I have, I think like 80 full wedding days up there now. so if you are interested in wedding photography, I have you covered and also on every camera system. So if you're on Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, I got weddings for you up there. and yeah, I would say that's probably the main place where Instagram I'm at Taylor Jackson.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:55:44

I can't believe we're already almost to the end. Finally today, we are going to hear from Carney Arrely, a photographer who she crowdsourced real images of motherhood to change the cultural perspective. So you're going to learn how to embrace imperfection and authenticity in your photographs. Karni talks about the importance of capturing the duality of motherhood, you know, to present a more realistic portrayal of, what it's like. So you're gonna learn how to cultivate self belief and resilience in your creative process, especially when facing challenges like knowing when a project is done, when it's complete. And finally, Carney is going to emphasize the value of connection and collaboration when she shares just how great photography is enhanced by working with trusted partners and building a global community. Carnie, my first question for ya, I try to keep this an easy one. I want to know, when did you know that photography, and in particular just creating images, or telling stories, was going to be an important role in your life?

Karni Arieli: 2:56:46

I'm not sure. I think I was a late bloomer, to be honest, because I didn't really find photography till I was maybe 16. which I think for today feels really late considering everyone grows up with an iPhone and a camera and another camera and another iPhone and, you know, so I had a camera knocking about that was my grandfather's and my dad's. And I think at some point when I was a teenager, I started, directing my friends a little bit and my sister and creating small stories that I think helped me make sense of the world. I think people who are creative, you know, I knew I wasn't a writer, but I wasn't sure what I was. And I think when I started taking pictures and I saw they were interesting and I liked creating in a way, slightly fantastical scenarios, actually. And working with people and portraits in particular, I just felt that I was good at it, that I had something to say. And I think what was coming out was this, often photography is really good at channeling something subliminal, something from under the surface that you haven't said verbally or that you haven't even thought of, but it will come out there in your art and kind of face you and confront you. I think it felt therapeutic as well as like, that I knew what I wanted to see or create. So, and it kind of evolved from there. And then I started shooting some, fashion shoots or some little portraits for people and building my confidence, going to art school. And at some point there was no looking back. Like, I think it felt very natural to me. I come from a family of storytellers, but much more verbal communicators or more writing. And I am a talker, but I feel like when I talk, it's like I'm too much in control in a way. It's like I'm saying what I want to say, whereas when I photograph, the photograph tells me what it wants to be. And I think that's a much more in a way, maybe honest communication or surprising or I guess artistic because, it kind of comes, it just like comes from nowhere nearly. And that's, I guess that's inspiration. That's maybe the people who are in front of you and that's like all the dots connecting, the camera being there, you having your point of view and the person you're interacting with or the scenario. just coming into place in your square frame, suddenly you'll just see something that makes sense or that's interesting or light, that hits it just so or whatever. And, you know, that point of view of the world, I guess it brings me joy as well. Like I guess finding pieces of beauty in a world that can often not make sense. brings me joy, so I stuck to it.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:59:39

You had those thoughts at 16 years old? Because I remember the thoughts that I had at 16 and they were nowhere near that point yet.

Karni Arieli: 2:59:45

This is all, I don't think you know any story until you look backwards. So I think only in hindsight, you can make sense of like what steps you took and what led you there. I think when I was younger, I just probably was a bit lost and picked up a camera and it helped me make sense, right? So, and it helped me connect with people and have some fun. And in a very basic sense, I think it was just like cool or whatever, or just like something I could do that not everyone could do. and then I think in hindsight, it was all these things that I understood that, you know, I come from divorced parents and I had a good childhood, but I think I was a little bit lost, I was going to a lot of parties and I think I wanted to make sense of what I was seeing and the world and this helped me. This tool was something and this looking, you know, looking closely at things. is something I enjoy.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:00:40

So then let me ask, back then when you were 16, you had mentioned earlier, going to art school, also, doing some fashion. Did you jump straight into say portraits at that time? Or were you just photographing everyday life?

Karni Arieli: 3:00:52

I don't think I ever really photographed everyday life. That came when I was much older. Like now I like to just find things on walks or with my kids or, and photograph them, but in the, or maybe direct parts of it. have a mix. But I think at the beginning, I like to create scenes because life didn't seem that fascinating. when you go to school and you're like doing the walk and you're in school and then you're at home, living at home, but kind of like dreaming of other things. And I think I had to create fantasies. I remember climbing into a tree with my mom's old wedding dress and somebody taking a picture of me and then me, being like, at photographing, my friend who I was with and so like, we would like wear clothes or go into slightly surreal scenarios, to maybe, I guess, create little stories. And even when I did fashion, it wasn't really fashion, try and get them placed in some magazines, but I think it was more like little scenes of fantasy that were acting out I guess the way I felt in the world or like things I was uncomfortable with or things I didn't know or things I did know but not using myself ever as the subject. I always used someone else. I never did self, well, I did do some self portraiture when I was, you know, in art school, but mostly I like to focus on other people, but I think it's a self portrait still. even though I cast, it's like I'm casting someone as me. That's how I see it.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:02:23

Yeah. I completely get that. It's like, I've said it on the podcast before there's that Ansel Adams quote that there's two people in every photo. There's the photographer and there's the viewer. So in a sense you are injecting a piece of yourself into every photo. I love that. So at what point, you said that you had went to. art school. I've found in talking with people that they either go to school for one of two reasons. One, because it's just what you do, or two, they know that they're lacking in that area. they know exactly where they're lacking and they need to get better. So, I guess which one of the two camps, do you feel like, you fit into? Or is there a third camp?

Karni Arieli: 3:02:59

It's a camp that your mom signs you up to art school because she's afraid you're lost and you're going to travel forever and never come back. And, she signed me up to this art school that was more of a general art school and I started dabbling in all sorts of art. So sculpture, painting, and photography. But I think that was a really nice rounded way of trying out different things. But I knew I was always best at photography. Like I, I did some sculpture. I like that. I'm horrible at drawing. I like dance theater. I like moving image and I like photography. And again, they're all like very much related to the eye. and less to like the hand. I'm not very crafty, but I've got a good eye. And so, painting didn't suit me. But, once I was there, I decided to then specialise. and move on more to focus on photography. And I think I did love, you know, once I decided to like follow that strength, you get in deeper. And I think I did really enjoy like history of photography, going into the dark room, with all those like smells and like seeing an image come up on a paper. I guess it's like, Like being a magician, you're like capturing, you know how they always say like that people, you can capture their soul in a photograph or whatever, or they'd be scared to be photographed in case you steal their soul. And I think there is some like magic and like fantasy and mystery in the whole process of like capturing an image. Because one minute it's In the world and another it's on a paper and it doesn't really make sense. Like even though I know the process, something about that is totally bonkers. if you think about it, like when people discovered photography, they must've been blown away to like own a piece of the world on a piece of paper, it's kind of crazy. And I think, that's what's really incredible that you get to own the world and you get to own it through your own eyes. So you create or you see the world in a certain way and that perspective and that point of view is then collected onto this piece of paper or like image you can own and. And it explains so much often and it's really exciting. So, and then of course, looking at other people's work is really crucial and collaboration. you know, my kids, my eldest is now 17 and he's in art school and, I always say to him, the one thing that I think is really crucial in art school is like to collaborate and to learn from each other and to do trial and error and to make a million horrible pieces of work and then a good piece of work, because what we often don't realize is once you go into the world, it's a lot harder to play around. Like then you have to make a living. You have to have an apartment, you have to like move out of your mom's or whatever, or not. and so I'm like, well, really just. Go crazy in art school, like really make every, don't, don't get drunk and lie on the floor for the whole two years. That's not going to get you anywhere. I mean, you really should just like play a lot and, try things and experiment and collaborate. And be inspired, often the best ideas, we know this from people who have made it big in the world. They're usually inspired by other things, like cross pollination and little ideas that come into their ether. and I'm sure I've been influenced along the way by lots of, books I've seen and people I've met. And so I think that's really important in the sense of like the art school. And it's so much fun, like everyone getting together to discuss and make art. Which in the grander scheme of things, like in the world, art isn't considered in a par with like being a doctor or a lawyer. But in art school, you are the doctor and the lawyer, right? Because It's like the place it's like where you're considered like the big shot in art school is like the person who makes great art, and so I think that's a really good place to get confident and, so I did quite a few years in art school and, but not everybody needs it. You know, my partner's more of a like. He teaches himself more. He's like self taught and he's a bit more of a loner, but he's also an animator. They tend to be loners. Exactly.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:07:11

It's

Karni Arieli: 3:07:13

a different type of person. And not everybody loves, the art school. And I don't think you can teach art. Like I think you can teach everything that goes around it, like history of art, like the techniques, you can like help you. People hone in on what they're talented at and like the critiques are really useful to like figure stuff out to know what you want to stand up for and but in another way I think you should really follow what you love and what you know is best because People feel more comfortable with what they already know and have already seen. Which means that anything that's avant garde or forward thinking is at first going to be treated with suspicion. Like people aren't going to always fall in love with it straight away. just like a song that's like a bit more catchy, right? And you like love it straight away, but then the weird ones you really fall in love with, but it takes time sometimes.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:08:03

So then let me ask you, a question. This isn't really related to the podcast, but, do you think that art can exist then in a vacuum? if we can't teach art, but we have to teach essentially, it sounds like the self expression and show art in the past. Do you think that art can be created without, oh, but I guess that's hard because I mean, you can see everything as a form of art. So you can get inspiration everywhere. I don't know. I'll let you answer that question. Do you think that art can exist in a vacuum? Yeah.

Karni Arieli: 3:08:29

I don't know. I mean, I think part of the joy of art is there's a few stages in the joy of art. One of it, often it cuts, starts from pain. That's the weird thing. So it will start from some pain or discomfort, usually move into like self expression and self therapy, but then there's this other bit where you connect to others through it and they see it and they see you through it. and you get to change something in the world or in the way people see you or others or, and I feel that that is quite a big part of art. So I would say that in the vacuum, you might get some satisfaction, but I think there's a huge part of it that's in the connection and then in taking it out into the world, Other people connect to you that like your art and people see it and feel better looking at your art and you can change misconceptions like with iMama changing the way people looked at motherhood in the arts, so I think it's a huge bit and it would be a shame, to lose that. But of course, if you take a pile of like sticks in the forest and do a little sculpture and nobody sees it, that's still art, right? I mean, maybe only the squirrels will enjoy it, but, you know, they need art too. So, and by the way, I think you can teach art in the sense that I think just through someone going through a process of failure and success, trial and error, collaboration and like solitude, learning tools, honing in on their vision, that is teaching something. Like that's teaching a lot, it's the only thing I think you can't teach probably is that something that, that either perspective you have on the world or that spark of inspiration that you'd probably need to get in there. But. Possibly you could, it could rub off on you from others as well. Like maybe you go in and you're a bit like, I don't know, but then you get the bug, right? you get into it more deeply. So I think you can change as a person too. I think there's that option. we're not just one line, right? We have an arc. So I think it can be taught. I just feel like there's probably some bit that you come with and that is your own point of view on the world, your own take on the world, your own eye. and that's what makes it unique. that's what makes it special.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:10:47

Yeah. Yeah. So then, let's kind of, switch gears here. I could talk about this stuff all day and it's really exciting, but, I know that I have you for a limited time. So, I want to talk about, your. Project iMama. In your own words, can you tell me like what was the seed that had started this whole project? Maybe it wasn't fully formed yet, but what had got this ball rolling?

Karni Arieli: 3:11:10

Well, it was 2020 and we all know what happened in 2020 because we were all in the same little blue planet that was suddenly unified by having this virus, this, COVID, epidemic that broke out. And we were all going into lockdown. I live in Bristol, UK. We were at home. I had two kids at that time. They were, I have two kids, but at that time they were five and, 15, maybe I have a big gap. So, one of them was five, the little one, when lockdown started, I was like everyone else, like quite scared and like, Oh my God, is this the end of humanity, you know, and I do what I usually do. You know, I was a bit sick at the beginning. I might've had COVID and when I started recovering, I picked up the camera and that usually. gives me some power back to document and makes me feel like things are going to be okay. Because if you're thinking about art, you're probably not dying. usually there's like, you're going to be okay. So, you know, as document, it might be a false reassurance, by the way, but it is reassuring. Because obviously, like a photojournalist, might think that and that might not be the case. Anyway, I was documenting my kids in the garden and documenting light on the wall and little things to bring me joy and to connect to the world and try and make sense of everything that was a bit bonkers, I'm lucky to have a garden and, so I was taking these pictures and I was scrolling on social media because I'm also a filmmaker and I work with my partner with a directing duo called Kani and Saul, uh, Sulky Bunnies, our studio. And I was scrolling on social media and seeing my feed. I follow a lot of women. I follow a lot of the female gays because that's what interests me. And I guess I feel like that's my people, right? Like a lot of visions and visuals made by women. and traditionally in art school, you're seeing the male gays a lot. So for me, it was like more fresh and, more personal. And so, I'm looking at all these images and literally on my feed, nearly like a curated feed, I just see endless images of like these peepholes into homes worldwide, taken by women and mothers onto their own families, like an introspective look. at motherhood, home, and family within pandemic, like the head of a child, a mushed biscuit, crushed biscuit on the floor, a mother holding a child, a self portrait of a mother breastfeeding, a child having a tantrum, all of these things that we know so well. I never deemed that interesting, but I was finding this portfolio fascinating. Like I couldn't look away because I was going through the same thing myself. So I'm a mom and I'm a photographer. So that, that cross section of my artist self and my mother self had this cross section and I had never really, I mean, I always photograph my kids, but I hadn't sent it out into the world that much and, or used it. And the art world is usually quite exclusive and doesn't really deem family life as interesting in the art world or whatever. I would kind of leave it at home, like a separate identity. But here, what I was seeing was all these photojournalists, all these art photographers, all these fine art, women and artists were photographing the same thing. They were all like, they had no choice. They were all turning the camera inwardly. So usually they would be like on a job or going here or there. And suddenly they were all forced to do that kind of, look at themselves. And I was like, wow. this is so incredible, this body of work that's by, professional photographers looking at something that was deemed uninteresting in history. Boring, mundane, even like, oh, you're just a mom, oh, you're just a dad, oh, boring, ho ho, boring, boring. or like not art worthy or whatever, suddenly I was like, Oh my God, this looks like really powerful work. And I wonder if anyone's ever collected it, and then did some research and was like, well, there's one book from 2013 called Home Truths. with very few artists. It's a good book, but like well known fine artists, very minimal, in number. And I couldn't find anything else. there's family of man, that's mostly taken by men. There's a few mothers in there. There's a few women photographers in there, but it's like, it was taken in a time where it was impossible. And I was like, What if we'd collect all of this work and make a platform and a book and in history, like a thousand years from now, people could pick up a book and say, Oh, this is what motherhood looked like in 2020. Because we don't have that for world wars or other big events, major events, famine or war or the world wars or the Holocaust. You don't have those bodies of work because there weren't enough women who are mothers who are empowered enough to be photographers. And the men were usually pointing their lenses outwardly because that's where the interesting things were deemed. To be like outward, nobody, like often very few people turn their lens inwardly. So then I started collecting it, on Instagram slowly. And, the rest is history. it just dawned on me. I couldn't believe this body of work didn't exist because parenthood and motherhood has existed forever. since the dawn of time. And since photography existed, obviously they, at first they weren't any women or very few women. They were actually few in quite from the start, but I think they just weren't enough. And then I found out, the world at 2020 was such that there were so many women photographers and a lot of these women photographers happened to be mothers. So it's not like I'm saying all these mothers were taking pictures. It was, first of all, these were photographers. Who happen to be mothers, who happen to be looking at a subject, which is motherhood. And because there's so many stories and pictures of motherhood that are unrealistic, whether it's influencers or culture or commercials, all telling us false things and misconceptions about parenthood and motherhood that make us feel bad or shamed or just don't feel truthful. I was like, What's better than telling your own story? these are women and mothers telling their own story. And that's, that's a huge power. that's the ultimate telling your

Raymond Hatfield: 3:17:27

own story. So then why, let me ask, where did the decision come to curate the photos of others rather than sharing your story?

Karni Arieli: 3:17:37

Because I saw the potential. I think it was bigger than me. I think it was like the first time that I was like, you know, my kid's five. I'm quite desperate at home. I'm kind of, in this look. But our film was like put on hold a bit. Our film work was like on slow motion. And they just saw this little gap where I could look out of my own bubble. out of my own comfort zone and be like, wow, maybe I could do something that actually had some meaning, not just about my own existence, but for others and other women of my tribe, parents, women who are artists and mothers are my tribe in a way. this was a perfect storm, right? Everyone's home, there's pandemic, there's a million photographer women and mothers now because we're sort of advanced supposedly in humanity and everyone's like doing self portraiture and there's this like beautiful portfolio appearing. And by the way, to me, beautiful doesn't mean perfect or like happy. Like I feel you get happy by sharing truthful images, not happy images. So I was looking for like the light and dark, the duality in motherhood, the beauty within the details and the hardship. So no fake, influencer type content, which that we had loads of, right? Like there's loads of that. Yeah. And then, you know, I just, I just, I've never had this before in my life. And again, this sounds like on the verge of religious or but I really felt a calling because I felt, obliged. I knew how this could be. I knew how the work should be and could be. I saw the potential. And I thought if I walk away from this, some, It might never be made. sometimes when you see stuff, you can't unsee it. And then it's like, it was my calling to make it and I knew I could make it well. And I just saw it. I had a vision of what this book would be, what this platform would be. And I, I just knew I could do it. And so I just started trying to make it, you know, not really knowing. where it would lead. But sometimes making that one first step is the hardest, like naming a platform, I'm on a project, owning it, and then saying to some friends of mine, do you want to feature on this idea I have and I'll tag you? And they're like, yeah, sure, whatever. you know, then you've got like 10 frames, little frames on the grid. And that's like the beginning. and then in a way the project takes its own life, like from then on, it's not really that you control the narrative, you can push it, you can try and make it one thing or another, but it's also got its own life. Because you've put it out there.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:20:04

Let's talk about that then, because you knew that you wanted to collect these images. so you had started posting them on Instagram with the hopes of attracting attention, so that others would start to do the same. But you said that you knew that this was going to become a project, this was going to become a book. So you knew from the beginning that you were going to have to start curating photos. And, when I had just checked right before our interview, there was more than 65, 000 images on Instagram that are tagged with iMamaProject. But in your book, there's only 228 photos. So talk to me about had mentioned there that it's not necessarily your story to tell, it's the story of others. But when you're curating this book, this series of images, how do you do that? And do you try to separate yourself from that decision making process? Or is that? The piece of art that you're putting into the project.

Karni Arieli: 3:20:55

first of all, I think I found a new talent. You know how we said we're all beginners, and this goes together well with your podcast. But I was a, a newbie curator. Like I was a beginner as a curator. So even though I'd done film and photography for years, And I had a good eye. I knew I had a good eye. Right. And I had a really good sense of what motherhood was because I am one. and I have a good sense of what a good photograph is because I'm a photographer. And, I knew what was missing from the world because I basically made the book that I was missing. Right. So I say it's for everyone, but it's also really for me. Like I am everyone. Right. Because, I'm just I'm filling the gap of that invisible book that was meant to be there but isn't there, of what is motherhood today through the eyes of artists and women who are photographers, looking at their own motherhood, like telling their own story. And when I curated it, I just think that we should, women and mothers, And fathers and carers have to support each other, like women elevating other women. And I think if you're doing something that makes other women feel bad, nevermind the whole thing of like turning your life into an online circus and like constantly showcasing kids and all of, you know, that's a whole other thing, that I don't really want to get into, but of course is an issue. I just think I don't want to be involved in something that makes other people feel they're less, uh, Good. You know, at caring because of it. And I think that, I hope that through this book and this project, women feel that motherhood can be more normalized to have motherhood that's imperfect and fatherhood that's imperfect, but like full of love. You know? I think we relate better to imperfections because humanness is imperfect. I think they just popped out at me from Instagram, to me a good image is. On one hand, like it needs good lighting, a good point of view, like we said, like I need to feel that person's point of view, what their world is, so like a peephole into their world, something intimate, something with maybe nice lighting, maybe something surprising or shocking. Definitely not the obvious. So if I've seen it loads before, I don't want to curate it. What I want to curate is the unseen. So basically I'm trying to curate something that's been unseen up until now and that I see. So it's like I have this kind of special vision, x ray vision, into what visibility of motherhood should be, but isn't. And That's what I curated. So also it's a balance of like light and dark. So, light and dark is a big part of photography. It's really important in how you frame a photograph, shoot it. and also in the content, I wanted to make sure I had joy and hardship, disappointment, spillage, but also like beauty, skin. Touch, softness, connection, and I didn't want to scare people away by portraying motherhood as this kind of insane thing, which it is on some level. right. So, and then on the other hand, it's also this magic thing where you, you have a being and you nurture it and it's hard, but anything good. is hard. Anything worthwhile is going to be hard. But I think by portraying motherhood as like this kind of fantasy, Madonna images and fantasy, like I'm baking apple pies and juggling and holding seven kids while wearing white, when we're doing an injustice to women, we're faking it. And when they finally reach it, and to fathers too, and to anyone who's caring in the parent, We're creating this fake world where then when you enter parenthood, you feel like you're doing it badly because, or you're doing something wrong because it doesn't look like that, right? Because it doesn't look like the fantasy that people have sold you. But you know, just like we know love stories aren't Hollywood, parenthood isn't Hollywood or influencers Pampers commercials either. And very soon I realized I wanted it to be global and inclusive. So I knew I can have it with just women who looked like me and thought like me. I wanted it to be women from all around the world. I wanted it to be diverse and I wanted it to have all the narratives like, adoption and fostering and single mom and, gay couples and miscarriage and abortion and, all the different narratives. that lead up to parenting and that are parenting to be as inclusive as possible. and also I wanted to be as inclusive as possible in the sense that I said to anyone, you can join if you consider yourself a mama. And I used mama as a term of endearment. So that any carer who lives with kids could consider themselves a mama. You don't have to give birth necessarily. And anyone who considered themselves a photographer. So again, I didn't ask for credentials. I didn't ask for exhibitions or resume because I think we need to level the playing field. And I think women have enough penalties as it is, and parents have enough penalties as it is. And so to help women advance in this really tricky time of being parents to young kids, I included women who were well known as well as unknown, which is like a big curve ball in the art community, like for curation. It's not considered, a thing that you do, because obviously if you're into sales, you want to do well established, photographers. but I had nothing to lose. Like something when you have nothing to lose, you can take bigger risks because I wasn't a curator and I wasn't making any money. So, by not exchanging any money with these women, not making any, and not asking for any, I had complete creative freedom. The only thing that was missing was me earning the trust of these women. So obviously when you're dealing with the most intimate photography that women can give out into the world, they like to know that you're a mama too. They like to know that you're a photographer too. They like to see your curation, style. One of my favorite images is one by Julie Rene Jones from America. And it's an image that was in National Geographic that showcased the project. And it's just a hand reaching out from a crib into a beam of light. And the crib and the room are quite dark. And the light is like hand is flexed. Like a zombie hand or like when a baby falls and their hand is like, ding, like really straight and stiff and all you can see is that hand and it's in this beam of light and I love that image. I just love that image because not only did it feel to me like humanity trying to reach for the light in COVID, trying to survive. It's also about that little baby that all our world is in that little crib in the dark. And then that. beam of light just illuminates that hand. and it's just a detail, you know, it lets you fill in the rest. it leaves a lot to the imagination, which I think is, it's really crucial too.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:27:40

That's a lot of the fun of art is leaving something up to the imagination for sure. Yeah, absolutely. I'm interested at, as a photographer, know, that a great photo is more than the sum of its settings. We know that the story is like so important here. As a photographer, you do have to know the technical. side of photography. So when you were looking at these images, how much of that played a role in, into the selections that you put into the book versus just the story, just the moment.

Karni Arieli: 3:28:07

Well, because I knew I wanted it to be a book and a platform by photographers, by professional photographers, I'd seen projects that had started in pandemic that were for non professionals, people on iPhones, documenting, right? But that's not what I had in mind because at the end of the day, I do have a certain aesthetics. The professional photographers. I like people who shoot on medium format on DSLRs, I think the iPhone is really useful when you're a mom and you want to just document your every day. But I think if you're going to create an iconic One specific image that's really powerful. You're going to want to use a better tool saying that the book and the project have iPhone images. So I broke my own rules. I made them and then I broke them, but what I tried to do was get the best images. I could find that portrayed motherhood. as a complex issue. So, you have to, I call it the honey, like visual pleasure is the honey. You want to draw all these little fireflies to the honey and the light first, and then you can dish out any old story you want to dish out. People will swallow anything if it's covered in honey, just like that, paracetamol pill or medicine that you'll cover in honey, right? So I feel that the duality of I Mama and the hard, more truthful tales that are in there sometimes, Still need to be kind of wrapped up in this photographic aesthetic language, right? Because we're still dealing with an art form, right? and again, I never asked for credentials. I never knew. I think your eye can often tell what is like a casual snapshot that's meant for the home and for your own photo book. And what is something more iconic that you've managed to capture? I was fully aware that touching on childhood and motherhood. on the internet, which is the wild west and not the perfect place for any portfolio, you know, definitely not for women. we got removed and censored a lot. That's a whole other story by Instagram for showing breastfeeding images and other things. So I was just very aware that I didn't want to show kids in full nudity. I would show skin and I would show suggestions of intimacy, that was just my mother instinct, that's the interesting thing. I just showed work that I would probably be okay with myself and respected that. And, as the trust grew between the photographers who were submitting and myself, as my confidence grew, there were friendships that formed. So the first thousand women who joined, I probably know them all personally or the first 500, because we would, chat to each other on DMs and connect in lockdown and, like this kind of delicate spider web of eyes and hearts all over the world, interconnecting and sending these images and forming this current undercurrent of the story of motherhood, and inspiring each other, you know, and being inspired by each other's images. And so in a way, that was an art school for us. in a sense,

Raymond Hatfield: 3:31:09

you

Karni Arieli: 3:31:10

know, getting together like that.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:31:12

Now, of course, yeah, being able to share images, talk about those photos, and, come up with new ideas is, I mean, for me, that's where I found biggest benefit of film school. It wasn't so much learning the technical abilities. I think anybody can do that. But as you were saying earlier, the collaboration is, is it. You don't have to go to school for that. If you have a way of doing that on your own, you can get a lot of the same same output. Absolutely. And this will be my last question here for you, because I know that we are we're officially over our time. But when you have these different steps when you have all of these people who are giving their opinion. How do you know that you've reached the finish line? How do you know that you're ready? You put the stamp on it and you say, send it to print. We are done. Because it seems to me like that process could just go on forever.

Karni Arieli: 3:31:59

Yeah. I mean, that was one of the toughest bits. I think, first of all, you have a deadline, right? So I think, knowing that we wanted the book out at a certain time, the publication was waiting because they also don't forget the publication. Usually they gave me total creative freedom to know if they're a German publication, but they also have a veto. So they can like look at some images or try and influence you one way or another. If they think it's going to harm the book or that they don't. CI to I with you. I was very lucky that I got to really make the book I wanted with the text I wanted. it's got a few interesting texts in there about motherhood and about my process and also some quotes that I really wanted in there. But I think in the end, also because I also had this vision from the start and it had this flavor, the Mama Gaye's had this flavor that I kind of knew, Was this flavor of the mama gaze that was unseen and this book that I was looking for in a way and it's quite hard to describe but it's built up of all these pieces, all of these things that I've mentioned before the imperfections the duality dark and light. I think when I got as close as I could. Then at some point I was like, well, I also have to know. That this is the best I can do for now. this is never gonna be a perfect book. and it's either you try forever to get something iconic, but you might, it might take you five years, and by then, somebody would have made another book, or twenty books, or you wouldn't have been able to make it, or whatever. Or you make the book that you can make now, and I was very intent on making it within the year. once I pitched the book project because I, knew it was a contemporary, urgent topic, with, abortion rights in the States and paid leave rights being threatened and all these issues, expensive childcare all over the world and like women's rights and data. It's like a hot topic and really important for change, but I feel like you can't empower the invisible. Like first you need visibility and then you can empower something. It was just a version. In the end I had to like, again, give myself permission to say, this is the best version of the book I can get to. And once I changed my mind a million times and fought for things I was passionate about, some images I was in love with, right. So I'd fight for, and nothing could change my mind, but some images I would fight for, and they'd be like, nah, this is too much or bloody or whatever. I'd like, so sometimes like how much you're willing to fight for something is also your parameter or like your assessment on like how important it is, because when you're tired, you're like, okay, I'll just fight for that, but I won't fight for that. and you have to do a compromise. And so, It just like, you know, the graphic designer put pressure on me in the publication close it up and I had to just face the music and be like, okay, this is it. And of course, as soon as I shut it, I was like, Oh God, I forgot that mom. Oh God, that image could have been amazing in there. And then when I went back to the long list, I was like, Oh God, I would live. But of course, once you have the book done, the other images that you haven't looked at for a long time, look fresher, look like more exciting. So there's also that weird thing of like the new to you. So the new to me was new when I started the book, but then it became the old, but to other people, it will be the fresh. when you make art, you have to be careful of that as well. That what you've lived with for a long time can seem like not that interesting anymore. Like you've seen it, you've seen it. It doesn't have that exciting. Oh my God, look at that image. Because you've gotten used to it, just like with love or, relationship or whatever you have to like. you have to really trust yourself in the process. And that's some of the hardest things to do is you have to, that thing of like faking it or like believing in yourself, even if you have those doubts and selling it to others, that self belief in the project in yourself. I think that's really crucial because. without it, without that fire and that self belief, things are going to knock you down along the way and throw you off course. You really have to be like absolutely certain in your drive and your mission, but be open enough to accept other people's opinions or like zigzags along the way, but again, I can only say all of this. Clever stuff in hindsight, right? Like when you're on it, when you're walking on that path, often you fall down, you get up, whatever you can't, you don't see the full, the astronaut perspective when you're in it, it's only when you zoom out. That you can like tell what it's been and learn from it, and I'm really grateful for that, for the like insane learning experience and like all these friendships and all this work that I've had the privilege of, curating and, cause it's really a collective body of work, this is a collective vision by women around the world, which is kind of a first of its kind, definitely in scope. so that's a big satisfaction knowing that and having that.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:36:46

Of course, as a photographer, it can be hard. We feel like this thing that we're shooting ourselves is us. And whenever there's any sort of criticism on an image, we feel like it's. so oftentimes we try not to collaborate with others. but by hearing your story here today, that is something that, that I've definitely taken away. And then I want to, do more of, because clearly your energy and this passion that you put in is you're able to magnify that when you collaborate with others. So I really appreciate you sharing everything that you have here today, but I know that listeners are thinking to themselves. I want to see some of these images. I want to know more about this project. So before I let you go, can you share where listeners can find out more about this project online?

Karni Arieli: 3:37:29

Absolutely. I mean, if you Google iMama project and iMama book, that's the obvious go to, but there is www. imamaproject. com and there's links in that. It's a very simple website, but it's got all the links to the articles. it's been featured in National Geographic, Vogue, Wall Street Journal, Creative Review. a lot of articles over the time. And, also the Instagram, of course, which is, imamaproject. com. all one word and the book is on Amazon and all the online usual places, that you have, it's distribution is worldwide. But again, I would love people to, look at the book. I've always asked for the bookshops to keep one of the copies open so people can look through. get the books for people you love and also get them for people who you think need to see the story of motherhood, like sometimes that's really crucial. I wish we could give it to every business and every birth suite at every school, maybe in the future. because I'd love to do more exhibitions as well and an archive of motherhood, like there's still more things we could do with it looking forward. There's, a lot you can get to through the images that are shared on the Instagram, if you follow the trail to these women who are photographers. It's kind of this endless rabbit hole, but a good rabbit hole, you know, I have like interesting, photography by women today. so that's really, really nice.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:38:52

What an inspiring journey through the mindset that helps shape these great photographers. I really hope that this episode has left you feeling not only motivated, but empowered to take charge of your creative process. Whether it's Alison Conklin's emphasis on capturing real moments, Jeff Laurison's advice on creating systems for self analysis, or Brooke Shaden's push for experimentation over perfection, you now have a range of strategies to build a stronger mindset in your photography. Remember, it's not just all about the technical side, it's about cultivating the confidence to tell your story, the resilience to push through those challenges and the openness to continuously learn and grow. Photography is a personal journey. I've said that before, your mindset is what is going to keep you moving forward, even when things get tough. So take these lessons that you've learned today, take them with you to your next shoot and keep working on developing that, you know, the mental tools that will help you to thrive as a photographer. That is it for today. So remember until next time, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.