521: Lighting and Composition Mega Episode: Photography’s Ultimate Essentials

In this episode of the podcast, we explore the art of creative expression in photography, with valuable insights from Cris Duncan, Alanna O'Neil, Matt Payne, and Ave Pildas. Their journey underscores the importance of understanding and mastering light, embracing personal style, pursuing authentic experiences, and curating one's archival collection. You'll learn actionable steps to refine your craft and capture images that resonate with emotion, narration, and individual perspective.

THE BIG IDEAS

• Understanding Light: Cris Duncan emphasizes the indispensable role of light in photography, shedding light on techniques to master flash and natural light to shape your images.
• Personal Style: Alanna O'Neil encourages photographers to infuse their personal interests and emotions into their work, fostering growth while maintaining a core style.
• Authenticity in Photography: Matt Payne advocates for creating real, unmanipulated photographs that truthfully represent the moments and experiences captured.
• Archiving Work: Ave Pildas underlines the value of organizing and categorizing your photographic archive to build meaningful projects and leave a legacy.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

1. Master Light Techniques: Experiment with both flash and natural light setups. Start by practicing indoor portrait sessions with different lighting angles and modifiers, such as umbrellas.
2. Explore Personal Interests: Identify themes or elements that consistently attract your attention and incorporate them into your photography. Create a mini-series based on these interests.
3. Stay Authentic: Focus on capturing authentic moments. Avoid over-manipulating images and experiment with minimal edits to enhance the truthfulness of your scenes.
4. Organize Your Archive: Begin categorizing your existing photos by themes, dates, or locations. Use descriptive file names and consider digitizing any physical prints or negatives.
5. Create Projects: Use your organized archive to develop small photography projects or series. Share them on social media or personal blog posts to gain feedback and recognition.

RESOURCES:
Visit Cris Duncan's Website - https://cjduncan.biz/
Visit Alanna O'Neil's Website - https://alannaoneil.com/
Visit Matt Payne's Website - https://www.mattpaynephotography.com/
Visit Ave Pildas' Website - http://avepildas.com/

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http://freephotographypresets.com/

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Transcript

Ave Pildas: 0:33

Everybody gets something that you're born with and once you identify that, then you can develop it. And that's what's going to make you happy. You just have to follow that. You don't have to try and be somebody else. You just have to recognize what you are and the gift that you've been given and you develop that and never give up.

Raymond Hatfield: 0:56

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield. And today we have another special mega episode where we're diving deep into one of the most crucial, yet creative aspects of photography, light and composition. Yeah. These two elements are the foundation of every great photograph. And in today's episode, we're going to take you far beyond the basics. But first the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by cloud spot. Come on, you know that. With CloudSpot, you can sell your photos through prints, products, and of course, digitals. You can set up a storefront in just minutes and start earning more with every single gallery that you send. So grab your free forever account over at deliver photos. com and only upgrade when you are ready. So what makes this a mega episode? Well, for one, it's a long one because I've compiled several interviews from the past that focus specifically on lighting and composition. So if you struggle. Over the course of this episode, you're going to hear from expert photographers who excel in creating depth, creating emotion, and telling a story through their strategic use of light and carefully balanced compositions. And by the end of today, I think that you're going to leave with a stronger understanding of how to manipulate light to enhance your subjects, how to compose your shots with purpose. And how to create photographs that connect with viewers on a deeper level. So I really hope that you are ready to unlock these new skills that are going to bring your photos to life. And you know what, I want to be a part of your journey. So come join me and the thousands of other photographers looking to learn photography, you know, all that we can to create incredible images in the free and amazingly supportive beginner photography podcast community. You can join us right now by heading over to beginnerphotopod. com forward slash group I hope to see you there. So first up today is my interview with portrait photographer and just lighting master Chris Duncan Who is gonna teach you how to create depth and dimension in your images by strategically arranging things like highlights mid tones and shadows on your subjects face. You're going to learn about the importance of modifying light and the impact of the relative size of the light source on the quality of light in your photos. Chris is going to guide you on positioning umbrellas effectively explaining the difference between bounce and translucent umbrellas and how their orientation affects the lighting of your subject. There's a ton in this one, so get ready. When did light become an important element in photography for you? You've been shooting for a long time. When did you know that light was going to be your thing?

Cris Duncan: 3:31

Man, I'm starting off deep. I'm not sure when I knew exactly light was going to be important. I had taken I knew I wanted my work to improve. I was enjoying photography. I'd kind of been dabbling in it for a while. It's something that, I've kind of wanted to do. I've enjoyed since I was a kid. I was into my married life. We had a young child and kind of wanted to make it a business. And that was around 2001? 2000? No, yeah, 2002. Sometime around then. But anyway, later on, I just knew my work. I wanted to improve it. And so I started taking some courses, and one of the first ones I went to was from Tony Corbell, who, hopefully some of your listeners know who he is. If they don't, they need to look him up. He's at the sunset years of his career now, but he was a big influence, for a lot of photographers, in my generation and the one above me, just teaching light and how it can impact a scene. And I took classes from him probably six times. Really. Wow. Yes. Just'cause he taught so much, his wealth of knowledge was so expansive and my first time I could only grab like a 10th of it or a 5th you know, I just didn't have the capacity to get all of it. So I had to go back and revisit to get a little more and a little more and a little more. so he definitely played a big influence in lighting for me. and now we're close friends and go on vacations together and have dinners together. So that's, been really fun.

Raymond Hatfield: 5:01

How fun, how fun. I love that about photography, the ability to, create those connections. And yes, for sure. Unknowingly, in the beginning, it's, it's, Oh, interesting. This

Cris Duncan: 5:10

is such an open profession. It's such a sharing profession, and I'm sure there's some that are tight lipped and cleave everything to their vest, but man, most, the majority of people just want to see great work and great images and be inspired by it, and so they share so that can happen and spread. I

Raymond Hatfield: 5:28

totally agree. Totally agree. So, when you're taking, say that first class on lighting, right, I'm sure that you left super excited or super overwhelmed, you know, probably a little bit of both. when you got home and you took out the flash and you got to work, was it as easy as Tony had made it look, or did you fall into some, uh, trial? No, it

Cris Duncan: 5:48

wasn't even close. You know, it's like, I don't know. I don't know what sport you follow, but I, I, I really, Baseball. Okay. Well, I enjoy golf and there's probably some similarities to it. Is it you watch a pro game or a pros? Those guys get up there and like, Oh, that looks so simple, right? I can do that. and you visualize it in your head. Like, well, next time I'm at the mound or next time I'm at the bat. I know what to do. It's just a disaster. So it was kind of that same way with me. too much of my, I had so much of my mental capacity trying to think my way through the processes. I think that that bogged down the natural and instinctive ability that was probably inside me. It just hasn't blossomed yet. And so that's something now I pass on to my students is like sitting in a chair or listening to watching a YouTube video or hearing a podcast. That's great. That's a good first step, but that's not where it ends. You then have to, you have to implement it. You have to practice it because that's where it becomes manifest. You can't just watch a Dodgers game and say, okay, now I can play great baseball. You have to go and you have to, practice it. and then you have to revisit it. Just like I had to go to Tony's class again. I had forgotten some of the techniques cause I was so bogged down on maybe this one. And I had to keep refilling that, that tank and practice it, of course. So it wasn't, it didn't come easy. it probably took about a year, which may be a gulp moment for some of your listeners, to where I really felt that it became instinctive.

Raymond Hatfield: 7:28

A year before it really felt instinctive, instinctive, as far as like using it. were you using it in a, commercial setting or was this for just personal photos?

Cris Duncan: 7:35

Oh, it was all commercial. It was all for our business. And what I mean by instinctive is where you becomes almost second nature. You don't have to think about it, right? You just kind of set it up by instinct. You're like, okay, I know this is going to work. It's predictable. I've practiced it enough that this is the result I'm going to get.

Raymond Hatfield: 7:54

I see. So I know that, you've obviously come a long way because today you teach lighting, your workshops as well are helping countless other photographers. But I know that one thing that, a lot of beginners struggle with when you talk about light, their eyes kind of glaze over and they're like, what are you talking about? Like there's light everywhere. I don't, I don't understand what you mean by, phrases like see the light. Can you help us To better understand the importance of learning how to use light.

Cris Duncan: 8:21

well, you're correct. Light is everywhere. but it may not be the light that's most flattering to your subjects or the light that's in the best position to render detail and texture and depth and shape. So what I've had to do is create a hierarchy. And what I mean by hierarchy is and everyone has a different hierarchy. mine isn't the correct one. It's not necessarily the wrong one either, but it's just what I put value on. And so when I'm looking at lighting, there's kind of a list. I want to make sure it achieves and if it can achieve these three objectives, and I feel like I've worked on my job, one is I want to make sure it provides enough contrast. well, let me say it makes up for the difference to what my I can see in my camera can record because those are two different values. We've probably all seen a beautiful scene and take a picture and you're like, that looks nothing like what's in front. Yeah. so what are I can record is so much greater than what our camera can record and even what our paper can print. Which really comes down to five stops of dynamic range. So one, I want my lighting to be able to be in a workable contrast that the print looks, looks nice and acceptable. I want to make sure it has shape, depth, and form that I see three dimensional, context in the two dimensional media. And then finally, if possible, I want it to try to enhance the story that we're trying to tell. And so that's kind of my hierarchy I work through. I can achieve those. Then I've satisfied my needs and I've probably satisfied the client's needs or exceeded them. Sure. Sure.

Raymond Hatfield: 9:55

How is it that using artificial light does

Cris Duncan: 9:57

that? well on the, on the first part about making up for the difference when our eyes sees in the camera can record is what I think a lot of beginning photographers, it's a hard concept to grasp it's, it's just is, but when you do, it's really freeing is that most of us, a lot of photographers understand the exposure triangle and how it's conversely relative to each other. So if we're just in an ambient situation. And we decide to change our shutter speed, our aperture has to change the opposite direction to balance out the light. Right, so it still stays balanced and I call it the exposure balance and not the exposure triangle, to balance. But when we add artificial lighting, and I don't mean like constant lighting, I mean, an electronic flash, a brief and brilliant burst of light that comes from a strobe or an electronic flash. Those two. Exposure controls become separated. So now our flash intensity or our flash brightness stays consistent on whatever it hits. So let's say it's, I know you do a lot of wedding photography. So let's say it's the bride and groom outside of their venue and it's a beautiful day. So you light them with off camera flash. That intensity is going to stay the same every time it fires. So as long as your clients are in that flash, Cone of light, their exposure is consistent. So now your shutter speed can go faster or slower to adjust the sunlight or the ambient lights in the space. And that's where it becomes so powerful to help me control that contrast because now I can really, I mean, in layman's terms, I can control the sun. To an extent that way, or I can control the brightness of the reception or the brightness of the home or whatever place we happen to be.

Raymond Hatfield: 11:36

So, I appreciate you, you sharing that, that next question for beginners. once they understand and I'm sure that they've heard, balancing or expose for the ambient and then add in your flash so that you can get all that exposure. Yes. The next question I always seem to hear is why even bother taking the flash off camera? What is that going to do for our photos?

Cris Duncan: 11:58

Okay, well, that that hits my 2nd priority, right? My, my hierarchy, which is to create shape form and dimension and try to render a 3 dimensional quality on a 2 dimensional media. And so that means we have to have highlight mid tones and shadows. So, the more we can get it off camera into a. 45 or greater angle from camera to subjects. We're going to introduce a shadow that's visible. there's a shadow, there's a shadow there. If the light's on camera, it's just on the back of the person. So you don't see it. So I want to move that shadow around to the side at some point to give me that depth.

Raymond Hatfield: 12:33

And I know that this is kind of hard to talk about because this is a, is an audio based podcast, right? People and then trying to figure this out in their head, but like, why would you want shadow on somebody's face? Are we talking hard raccoon eyes? like what does that look like from your perspective?

Cris Duncan: 12:49

well, sticking to portraits. Cause I'm, I'm assuming that's probably where a lot of your listeners are. I'm looking for. For those three things I want highlight, which is the brightest part of face, the mid tone, which is the natural part of the face, and then the shadow, which is the darkest part of the face. I want all three of those, items on five parts of the face. It's the five planes, that's the forehead, the nose, both cheeks, and the chin. So the shadows aren't raccoon eyes, the shadows aren't, half the face is in light and half the face is in shadow. I'm trying to make sure I have good light and on the forehead, the nose, both cheeks and the chin. And I call those the five planes of the face. And that's what, gives us the dimension. And, I'm sure a lot of your listeners took art class in third grade or second grade, and that may be recent for some, it may be a long time ago for others, but in my art class, we drew a circle and it just looked like a circle. And then you shade one side of it and it starts looking like a ball. Right. It starts having that dimensionality. And then so one side is bright and one side gradually gets shaded and that's the same thing with photography. I want to create that shading to give me depth without the shadows. You don't have it. And if you're photographing something that's dark tone, darker skin or dark clothing, then you need highlights. You don't, on Caucasian skin. You see the shadows that render shape. That's how your eye perceives it on darker skin. You see the highlights that help render shape. They're both present It's just relative to the tone. It's on so that's what I'm looking for

Raymond Hatfield: 15:06

Oh, that's like that's next level stuff to try to imagine there in your head when getting started Yeah, so then kind of walk me through a little bit I guess before we move forward because I got some questions specifically about like Modifiers and whatnot as well. We're going to add on to that conversation. But before we get into that for somebody brand new, right. All that they've ever used before is just their camera. What are kind of some of the most basic components that they need just to get started with, taking their flash

Cris Duncan: 15:35

off of camera. Okay, well, before we even take the flash off the camera, I think there's 2 items that a photographer needs when they're going to be working on location, which means outdoors or at a venue, not in a controlled environment, like a studio would be, I would get some type of reflector. I'll just pop out reflector. You know, it's usually white on one side. Maybe it's silver or gold on the other. It could be black. I like the white and black ones. I think you need one of those. Why? why do we need the reflector with the white side, the black side, and then the translucent side? What will that do for us? Okay, well, the reflector will allow you to control the amount of light that hits the shadow side. So we're going to assume now, based on our previous conversation, that we're going to put some type of directional light where we see shadow. Well, maybe the shadow is too dark to your liking or to your client's preference. So the reflector will help. Bounce light back into that shadow side of the face, reducing the density of the shadow. The black side would actually increase the density of the shadow. So if you want more shadow, so maybe you're in a place that it's really flat lighting and you need to try to introduce Like an overcast day or open shade. You need to introduce more depth. The black side helps you do that. Okay. And that's just without using flash.

Raymond Hatfield: 16:51

Right? Yeah, I know. That's why. So this is like, if somebody's trying to picture it in their head, we have a person in front of our camera and say off to the left. We have a flash, but then, or no, I take that back off to the left. We have our son, right? It's just, it's the ambient light. And then off to the right, we have a reflector here. All right. So we're almost placing them in the middle of like this sandwich between light and the reflector. is that about right? That's a pretty good visual

Cris Duncan: 17:19

for it. Yes.

Raymond Hatfield: 17:20

I figured I would try to introduce some sort of food reference since we seem to just do this naturally every time we, uh, Yes, we do. Yeah. Okay. So the person is the meat of the sandwich, the, the sun, and then the reflector there, the bread, the light is the bread. Yes. Okay. Now let's talk about the translucent, aspect as

Cris Duncan: 17:36

well. Okay, so the way the translucence does is it helps you modify the size. Of the sun. so maybe they're in dappled light under a tree. Maybe the light is too harsh and they comfortably can't even keep their eyes open to get a nice portrait. The diffusion scrim, allows the sun to transmit through it. Translucent, right? To transmit through it. and that will soften the light source because it makes it bigger and it gives us just a little bit more control on how the light impacts the face. But those are two really affordable tools. to start using granted, you need someone to hold those for you.

Raymond Hatfield: 18:11

Not as cheap, but hopefully if you have a child, then you have some cheap labor who might do it, milkshake or something. There you go. okay. So now, getting into the flash side of it, right? So we know that we need a flash, like what else

Cris Duncan: 18:24

is there anything else that we need? Since it's off camera, you're going to need something that tells that the camera tells the flasher ready for it to fire some type of radio transmitter or a cord or some type of way to get the signal from the camera to the flash that I want you to fire at this when I press the shutter button, a lot of cameras and flashes have those built in now. So if you're a cannon shooter, a cannon flash will communicate. then you need some type of stand or another assistant to hold that flash. You can't just set it on the ground and have it point up in the air. Gotta have some type of, some type of support, mechanism to hold it. And then as far as a modifier, I always tell my students get the largest one they can afford and they feel safe using. I mean, and the Plains of West Texas, An umbrella bigger than four feet is really, it's really hard to maintain. I mean, it catches a lot of wind. so I would use maybe an Octabox or something outside, but, the problem with the flash in my, and when I say flash, I'm thinking on camera, flash that unit that can go on your camera. It can go off is it's just. That light source is always going to look the same until you modify it. No matter how far away you put it or how close you put it, or if you put it to the left or the right or off to the side, it's such a direct intense light source. It's always going to produce a very crisp and hard light quality. is that not natural? Is that why you want to change that? I wouldn't say it's not natural. Our experience has been that it's not as flattering because it It reveals more imperfections in the skin because it introduces a more defined shadow. So if you have raised texture on your skin through wrinkles or acne or, eczema or anything like that, it's gonna, exaggerate that. Whereas a softer shadow will diminish that. So I see a softer shadow through a modifier. Is that right? The larger, the light source we can get, the softer we can create the shadow to be. so you could even use that translucent diffuser. We just talked about and place it in front of your flash, just like you would the sun and enlarge that source.

Raymond Hatfield: 20:31

Okay, so let's go there because that part of the conversation I was ready to have a little bit later, because I feel like the size of a light source can be a very hard thing for new photographers to grasp. In fact, when I was in film school, it was a hard thing for me to grasp, like the larger the light source, the better the light. And I could never, I never understood it until I actually saw it, but those who maybe their brain works a little bit better than mine, you can help, describe why the physical size of a light source Is important.

Cris Duncan: 21:05

Yeah. I will try to do it the best I can on an audio podcast. Yeah. All we can do is try. All we can do is try. We can always try. Let's just stick with portraits, right? And think of the average size of the human head, right? So maybe the size of a football or a soccer ball, right? Depending on how slender or chubby the person may be. Okay. and most human heads are about the same size. Once they hit probably, adolescence. Okay. So let's look at that square footage. Let's just call it one square foot. A face is one square, but we're just going to call it that. Well, our flash, if we just use our flash, it's about five square inches, six square inches, right? It's two by three, two by four, you know, three by four, something like that. so that's a big difference between one square foot and six square inches. So that size, relative size difference is great. So that smaller size of the light compared to the larger size of the subject is going to produce A very defined shadow edge, very crisp shadow, like you would get on the sun when you go out on a bright, sunny day. So if we can use a four foot umbrella or a three foot octabox or one of those pop out translucents that now is maybe, let's see, maybe eight square feet. Well, that's quite larger than our one square foot face. And so it's not just how big the source is, it's how big it is relative to our subject. And so, I just try to always look at it as really relative space, right? is this light source physically bigger than my subject? If it is, you should start seeing softer light quality. If it's smaller than my subject, you will get crisp defined light quality.

Raymond Hatfield: 22:46

So the physical size isn't enough. Right. We can have a four foot, you know, say umbrella, but if it's relative size is smaller, say it's like 40 feet away, correct. We're still going to get, say the same effect as if it was just a bear flash, a foot away from our subject.

Cris Duncan: 23:03

Does that, is that correct? Yeah, it's size relative to distance, but most photographers won't put it 40 feet away. They're going to end up placing it about six to seven feet away, maybe a little, you know, somewhere in that range.

Raymond Hatfield: 23:16

is there some sort of, I don't know if there is or not, I've never really thought of this. Is there some sort of mathematical equation to determine what the relevant size of a light source should be? Obviously it's a bit subjective, to your subject. I

Cris Duncan: 23:30

would think it would just be trigonometry. You'd have to draw some type. So let's really get this complicated. Go. It's the co-sign of the tangent to the adjacent angle of the light being, you lost me You totally lost me. You know, some I don't know of like a quick mathematical formula. you know what I tell my students? it's kinda like when you stand far away from something, I can pinch your, you know, you can pinch someone's head in this little bitty space between your thumbs. Yeah. You know. or you've seen those perspective photos where someone looks like they're holding up the leaning tower of Pisa. Well, they have to be a long way away to do that, to change that relative size. So that makes the leaning tower of Pisa look really small compared to that person, right? If they get closer to it, Then they can't have that same person that same relative look because it's obviously larger. Yeah, and so

Raymond Hatfield: 24:17

is that I do this trick with my kids Because they always love to see you know every every once in a while There will be a moonrise in the evening and they're like look at how big the moon is like why is the moon so much? bigger Like in the evening than it is, you know when it's say it's midnight and it's in the top of the sky And I had them do this experiment where it was like, if you just take your pinky, right? And you hold it out at arm's length, you can cover up the moon with just your pinky. Your pinky nail whether it's and that's how you'll know that when it's at the horizon It's the exact same size as it is when it's up in the sky It just appears different and I think for them that helped to understand like oh Maybe being surrounded by trees or like other buildings changes. It's Perceived relative size. I suppose correct. Yeah But I thought that was interesting. So when it comes to using something like an umbrella, right, because an umbrella is, I mean, for most photographers, it's the first modifier that they buy, it's one of the cheapest. It can fold down very small. They can take it with them wherever they go. And then it can also open up large. Right. So, is an umbrella even like a good modifier to use? Because with how cheap they are, does that mean that they're garbage quality? Like from your perspective, is that a good starting

Cris Duncan: 25:35

modifier? Absolutely. I think they are. and they sometimes are included in a, in a starter kit. Right. and they're just, less expensive because they cost less to manufacture. Right. It's just passing the savings on to the customer per se. I think an umbrella is a, is a great modifier, and we could spend a whole podcast on which modifier is appropriate for which job. And you could get 10 photographers in here and probably have 10 different opinions on that. but an umbrella will definitely, you know, Create a larger size if that's your, if you want to get off of the look you always have from just an off camera flash, you're going to have to modify it. And an umbrella is an easy way to modify it without a lot of different type of attachments and rigs to connect it. it's hard to put a soft box, a big soft box and a flash that gets really complicated. It's not complicated to put a large umbrella onto a flash. You just need one little piece, an umbrella adapter that connects to your stand and your flash and you're done. And that's probably a 15 piece. I mean, so that's very affordable as well.

Raymond Hatfield: 26:37

So then I think my mind, the question becomes, how do we get the best looking photos out of an umbrella before we should be investing in something like a soft box or a different type of modifier?

Cris Duncan: 26:47

well, for one, it increases the size so that that's already going to give you, and I'm not saying it's a better light quality, it's just going to be a softer light quality, which at for portraits tends to be more pleasing on the client's end. The hard shadows just. Somehow don't seem to be as accepted. At least that's been our experience. You know, everybody's different. Every client's different. and it allows you to maybe photograph more than 1 person in nice, consistent lighting when you have a larger light source. and this, yeah, so, I mean, I think it's the ease of setting up. It's going to help. We still want it on a direction. So we still want to introduce highlight, mid tone and shadows still want those. I think your listeners if they haven't done this before, would be quite surprised at the difference. It would make and it's noticeable. There's a lot of things that give you a subtle difference And it takes more than a tuned eye to kind of see that but this is like whoa. This is a big This is a big difference. Where have you been all my life type thing?

Raymond Hatfield: 27:47

That's what I said to my wife. So let's imagine Photographers, right? They get their flash for the first time, they get their umbrella, they get the adapter to be able to mount the two together. Now what? Are we just putting it right in front of us? Right behind us? Like, where do we position this to just say that we're just photographing one person right now?

Cris Duncan: 28:03

Okay.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:04

That flash go, how do we get a good photo?

Cris Duncan: 28:06

I think a good starting point is 45 degrees. So if you draw a line between your camera and your subject, that's your one line. So 45 degrees to the left or right of that, positioned towards your subject, that's going to automatically introduce highlight, mid tone and shadow at that 45 degrees. And about 6 feet away, arms length away. I'm doing all these motions like people can see me, uh, you know, like arms length away. That's a good starting point. And then from there you can do fine little adjustments, but that'll introduce you some really nice quality light. That's going to be sellable and pleasing almost 99 percent of the time.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:46

So, is this something that like you set up in a park or is this like specifically just a studio thing? Like, where can you set this up?

Cris Duncan: 28:54

I think you can set it up anywhere. In a park, obviously be wary of the wind. That's going to be your, your biggest component with an umbrella outside. So you may need someone to still hold that and to keep it, keep it steady or sandbags. And, you know, then you're just getting into, heavier stands. I mean, there's lots of different ways to secure it, or in the studio or go to someone's home or a wedding venue, hotel. wedding chapel, all the different venues they have for that. Absolutely. you can set one up and tear it down and, probably longer than it takes you to set up your, I mean, less time than it takes you even set up your camera. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Raymond Hatfield: 29:30

Okay. I got a question for you and this is going to be like, again, day one. minute one of setting up this flash and umbrella setup. Cause I just realized, or just remembered rather, that I had seen this in a Netflix show once, and I thought to myself, what in the world are they doing? When you set up the stand and the flash and the umbrella, what direction should it be pointing? Should the flash be pointed into the umbrella, which is, In between the flash and your subject, or should it be turned around to then bounce the light from the umbrella onto your subject? Does that make sense?

Cris Duncan: 30:10

Yes. Well, there's two types of main umbrellas. There's one that's called the bounce umbrella, where the outside of it is going to be black and the inside is going to be some type of reflective material, white or silver. I prefer the white ones. then there's a translucent umbrella where the whole umbrella is this. kind of shower curtain white material. If you're using the bounce umbrella, black on outside, white on the inside, I point the shaft of the umbrella towards my subject. So the flash is pointing away from the subject into the umbrella, and then it bounces back. If I'm using the umbrella that's shower curtain material translucent, then the shaft of the umbrella is facing away from my subjects. The flash is still oriented the same. It's still into the umbrella. Either, either one I use, the flash is still. Going into the opening of the umbrella, just if it's bounced, the shaft and umbrella points towards the subject. If it's translucent, it points away from the subject.

Raymond Hatfield: 31:07

Perfect. from your end, like what's the difference between those two and how should somebody decide if they're just getting started?

Cris Duncan: 31:13

the difference between those two is really how the light exits the modifier. it's going to exit it relative to its shape. And I know that we're getting really complicated maybe for radio, but since the translucent is going to be more dumb shaped, it's going to send light in 180 degrees. Anywhere that it's translucent, the light leaves it in that direction. And so the balance is not quite as dome shaped. So it leaves it, more narrow where the translucent will leave it much wider.

Raymond Hatfield: 31:43

So what does that look? Is that just a change in, shadow on the subject's face or what?

Cris Duncan: 31:48

It could be a change in the subject space. You know, if you're in a, wedding venue and there's white ceilings, the translucent one is nice because it's going to send light up to because that dome shape is facing the ceiling, facing your subject and facing the floor. So, it's going to send light to the floor. It's going to send light to the ceiling, which may give you a greater range that that light is. Is effective where a bounce umbrella sends a much narrower beam of light that it may not hit the ceiling or the floor,

Raymond Hatfield: 32:17

right? This a hard question. Is there a hard and fast rule for when to use each one? Or is it could you use both for either?

Cris Duncan: 32:25

Absolutely. I think you could use both. I wouldn't say they're interchangeable because there are those subtle differences. but either one of them would yield, yield good results. I prefer a bounce umbrella. Personally. I think the light leaving it is more efficient, meaning it's more consistent across its output from like edge to edge of the light or a translucent tends to have a brighter center and a darker edge. So you get more of a hotspot. With the light leaving a translucent, then you do a bounce.

Raymond Hatfield: 32:58

So, I'm just working through this one. I haven't really been in this situation. I haven't used a bounce umbrella before. Would a bounce umbrella be better for, say, group portraits, rather than just like a, say, a single headshot or something?

Cris Duncan: 33:12

I can't, man. Uh, my answer is usually, it depends. Right?

Raymond Hatfield: 34:12

just from your perspective, let's say that we had, you know, a family of five, right? And they're getting together, you, you need to illuminate them somehow. what would you Chris Duncan choose?

Cris Duncan: 34:21

I would use a bounce umbrella. Again, because the center, the way, just the way the light hits the umbrella and, bounces back and comes out of it, it's more efficient from, I say corner to corner, but it's round from edge to edge, the middle, most, most modifiers or the center is brighter than the edge. That's just the nature. That's the science and the physics of it. A bounce umbrella seems to make those differences less. And a shoot through umbrella.

Raymond Hatfield: 34:51

Gotcha. Let's say somebody is getting started. maybe they know how to use their camera. They know how to control it. They've even used flash before a little bit. and they're getting started shooting weddings, right? They're going to take their flash to a wedding and now it's time for family photos, you know, up at the altar. This was something that in the beginning I struggled with, cause I would only bring the one. Umbrella with me and I, you know, everything on the right side of my frame, they were very well lit everybody on the left side of my frame. Not so much. Sorry, grandma. Right. what's the answer to that? Is it changing the modifier or is it multiple umbrellas?

Cris Duncan: 35:27

both I would stick with an umbrella in that scenario, just because it's so easy to set up and tear down and it doesn't take up a lot of space when you collapse it like a soft box or something would. I would just move to a larger umbrella. Maybe indoors. You can get away with a 7 foot umbrella, which your listeners goes, man, that sounds really big. And it is. And it is. but again, it's that relative size to my group. Now I don't have one head that's a single square foot. I may have 6 or 7 or 12 or 15. So now I've got a larger square footage that I have to light appropriately. So my light needs to be a larger square footage relative to them. So I think a good rule of thumb, I'm going to stick with bounce umbrellas because I think, you know, Personally, they're the most, they're the easiest to control and they get you the most consistent spread of light across, across your image is the shaft of the umbrella should point to the farthest end of your group.

Raymond Hatfield: 36:24

Okay. Gotcha.

Cris Duncan: 36:26

And that'll help even out and distribute the light as efficiently across the group as possible. It may not be perfect. It may still take some adjustments, but the more the shaft is pointed towards the farthest end or past that point, the more efficient the light will be across the group.

Raymond Hatfield: 36:44

Yeah. was one of those things where it's like, I always found that I could, I could salvage the photo, in editing, but it was never ideal. and I think that that's one thing that a lot of times I would forget, that it was Even though, sometimes because of the speed of a wedding, you may not always be able to get it like perfectly right and be able to do it, by the books every single time. We do still have some flexibility in editing. When it comes to Flash, from your perspective, do we still have that same flexibility or do we have to take different, approach to editing?

Cris Duncan: 37:16

no, I think you still have that same flexibility. If you just happen to misposition your light and one side got a little bit darker, you still have the ability to open up shadows and our tone down highlights or stuff like that. You still have that ability to do. but where I think it's even more powerful using flash and you're editing is now, as we talked about earlier. My ambient light is controlled by my shutter speed, right? We separate those two exposure controls, from flash just determines my aperture and ambient light is now affected by my shutter speed. So now you can change your shutter to introduce more light in the background or even on that shadow side for maybe a window or lights that are already present in the space too. So it gives you so much more flexibility using off camera flash.

Raymond Hatfield: 38:03

Let me ask you a question. just so that we can hopefully again, wrap our head around this concept, right? When you change your shutter speed, right? Let's say that there's no flash involved. We're just out and we're taking a photo. When we change our shutter speed, the photo gets brighter or darker, right? That's the only setting that we're going to change.

Intro: 38:23

Correct.

Raymond Hatfield: 38:24

When you introduce flash and you change your shutter speed, whatever's being hit by the flash, the exposure doesn't change. Correct. Can you explain that for new photographers?

Cris Duncan: 38:36

Yes, because your, flash moves at the speed of light. So, so time has, unless you have to, and unless you move into high speed sync, right? and I don't do that very often. So let's ignore that technology. Let's just forget high speed sync exists. And until you get to that point where you need high speed sync, time is not a factor on your flash because it happens So fast. So when you press the shutter button that flash fires, whatever it hits, we're assuming is your subject, your person, whatever it hits in that instant is burned into the sensor. It's exposed. And then the amount of time that that shutter is opened after that flash fires, if you're using first curtain sink or before that flash fires, if you're using rear curtain sink burns in anything that flash does not touch.

Raymond Hatfield: 39:28

So when we change our shutter speed, that's not adjusting the flash, right? Dill. So what that's doing is that's just changing the amount of time that the light not coming from the flash is hitting our sensor. And that's why that light either becomes brighter or darker, but that's correct. That's correct. Cool. That's correct.

Cris Duncan: 39:47

We know that there's a difficult concept. if you've only photographed an ambient light and you've only photographed on a program mode. You know, where you've used exposure compensation. this is like, what? Hold on. Let me hear it. Say that again. Yeah. Yeah. 1, 1 more time. so I think to really do this effectively, you need to go to manual mode. Because then you would only change your aperture based upon how bright your flash is. And you would only change your shutter speed based upon how bright or dark you want the non flash areas. I call it the ambient. Typically, we can refer to it as the background. It's the park behind our subjects, or it's the reception hall at the wedding, or, you know, the altar behind our people at the wedding, or whatever it may be.

Raymond Hatfield: 40:35

I know that talking about these things and, it's challenging, I think sometimes to have these conversations because this is technically the beginner photography podcast, you know, and I try to have these conversations that are geared towards beginners, and hopefully allows them to expand their knowledge base some so that they have somewhere to start going towards when they feel like they've reached that. And that's why I think today we have to have these conversations. So one, I just have to say, I appreciate you coming on here and, not only talking about light from an authoritative space, right? You've had a lot of use of light, a lot of experience with it, but also, trying to, speak to it in a way that. Many beginners can better understand, without making us feel, dumb, because that happens a lot in this space, right? you can just start talking about the, you know, the trigonometry and the, and the cosine, you know, all those things, but you didn't do that except for that, that one time, of course, but we, I was joking. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Of course. so one, I want to say thank you for that, but now that we have this knowledge, what do we do with it?

Cris Duncan: 41:36

You gotta, gotta practice. Where do we start? Maybe start with, you know, don't torture your kids again to do this. Okay. Guilty. Guilty.

Intro: 41:48

Yes.

Cris Duncan: 41:49

I have so many pictures of my daughter with a scowl on her face. Like, really? You gotta take, you gotta do this again. but. Get something that has shape to it. You know, I mentioned the basketball. Maybe, you, um, have some type of helmet or something that looks like a face, you know, a costume or whatever, something that can render shape. You know, it could even be a balloon or a soccer ball or something like that. Photograph that, right? And put your umbrella on your flash about 6 feet away again at that 45 degrees is a good starting point. So, if you're in, if you're on the, if you move your umbrella to the right side of your camera, the shaft should point to the far left side of your. The right side of your subject, or your left side from camera position, if you move it to the left side, it should be the opposite because the shaft always goes to the farthest edge of my. Image and take some pictures, right? Go to manual and start adjusting your shutter speed and look how the background changes brightness. Don't adjust your aperture if the exposure on your on your subject is correct and visually see it. do this in your kitchen, do it by a window where you can see the window light change. Do it, outside. and just, and you got to practice it, you

Raymond Hatfield: 43:02

got to do it. You got to do it and just listen to these conversations or watch videos. You have to actually do it. I'm still waiting, for one person to just watch every YouTube video on photography without ever picking up a camera and getting some sort of like degree or calling themselves a master photographer. But I haven't seen it yet. Uh, which is just proof that you have to do it. Chris, again, thank you so much for coming on today. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me. This is your, well, technically this is your third time on the show. And I feel like every time you come on, I get some sort of email or, a message saying like, wow, that Chris guy really helped me out, figuring out some like, for everybody else who's listening right now, who maybe, they're trying to figure out. Where do I go with this? You know, what do I do? Where can we learn more about you and any sort of lighting resources that you have?

Cris Duncan: 43:51

Okay. well, name's Chris Duncan. C. R. I. S. There's no H. Instagram's ring. See a lot of our work. my website is C. J. Duncan seniors dot com. We do a lot of high school seniors. See someone work there. Some commercial work at C. J. Duncan dot biz. if you want to see some of that. As far as learning resources, I've been doing education for a while, over 20 years in the industry and have a resource. It's learn. findyourfocus. org.

Raymond Hatfield: 44:22

You know, Chris's episode continues to be one of the most popular and it is clear to see why. The man has an incredible ability to talk about light and make it easy to understand. Now, if you shoot portraits, whether it's family, seniors, weddings, whatever, after lighting, I know that the most difficult part for photographers is the posing. Well, I want to help you out with my free 25 page wedding and engagement posing guide. In it, I share my own images with 80 plus examples from nine different categories of poses, to help you rock your next session and make your subjects feel comfortable in front of a camera as well. So, if you need help posing, grab your free copy over at photoposingguide. com. The next step, I chat with visual storyteller Alana O'Neill. Here, you're going to learn how to use angles, how to use lighting, and how to create purposeful compositions to create immersive images that make viewers feel, present and in the moment. You're going to learn how to communicate specific emotions through the careful use of color tones and light manipulation, which will better allow your photos to evoke this feeling of sensitivity, thoughtfulness, and, Alana's case, nostalgia as well. Lana is also going to help you better understand how to balance different elements within your composition to tell a more coherent and compelling story, free of any clutter so that each part of your image supports the story that you are trying to tell. So Alana, my first question for you is when did you know that photography was first going to play an important role in your life?

Alanna O'Neil: 45:55

I think it started from an early age. My mother was a hobbyist, a photographer. I'm from Vermont and we grew up on a horse farm and in the tack room, which is where we keep all the horses, saddles and bridles and such, she turned it into a dark room. So it was like half dark room, half like photography equipment or like horse equipment. So I was there just always watching her develop film. seeing her like put it in the solution and then the red lights are on and then I'm just seeing the whole process from beginning to finish. And it's so I've always kind of had it in the back of my mind. Like, it's just always there. And she is an artist as well. And she's always teaching us to. Look at things like, look at the color of this cloud. Look at the green of this field. look how the purple matches the gold. So it was just something that was just kind of ingrained in my growing up. And then as I continue to grow and experiment, on my own, I really was drawn to nature photography and just capturing my surroundings and, my food and like we grew our own food in the garden. So I was like capturing food, that we grew. So it was just kind of always just my way of expressing myself. And then it only came to a forefront when I, was in my, twenties.

Raymond Hatfield: 47:13

Did you go to school for it or how did that progress?

Alanna O'Neil: 47:17

so I went to fashion design school in New York and I worked for Calvin Klein and it was really there where my photography interests grew because it's very similar. I mean, art, there's so much correlation between different fields and so when we are putting together collections, I would draw, look to, you know, go to the library or go on Pinterest or wherever I found inspiration and put together mood boards. And so. I really had to learn how to curate my photographic eye. And that's where, my love of photography really blossomed. Like, wow, I was really, I'm really good at this. Like, I'm really good at seeing things and translating concepts or emotions or feelings into an image that would eventually influence a collection. So I'm entirely self taught. I don't have any formal training, but it's just been always in my, background.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 48:08

So, I'm interested in that because going to school for something is kind of like a big, decision, right? You have to declare a major. You got to go to school. You got to learn these things for years. at what point did, photography really take the reins as far as like your life goes and moving forward in that direction?

Alanna O'Neil: 48:22

Yeah, and it's I also have a degree in global studies in French. So I was like, how can I combine all of these things, because the fashion design thing was an afterthought. It's like, another second degree on top of my undergrad. So it was really when I was living in New York City that, um, I realized this lifestyle wasn't meant for me, and the hustle, and just the fast paced life where you can't, think or breathe, even. I grew up on a farm where you see, rolling green hills, and then you come to this concrete jungle where you don't even see the sky, maybe 10 minutes of the day. Or feel a sunshine. So, that's where I was like, I need to leave. I need to physically leave, this lifestyle because it's unhealthy for me. And that's where I was leaning on towards photography because I was like, wow, photography gives me that freedom. That I can explore and, pursue my own path and create the lifestyle that I want. whereas if I was stuck, you know, working in a corporate position for a company, whose values that I don't even personally believe in, it just felt really soul sucking and photography was kind of that outlet where. I sought my out. So eventually I moved back home to Vermont and then kind of regrouped. And then I found, a position here in Hawaii. So this is another step is like, you can't sometimes make these immediate jumps right away. You have to like slowly go into these decisions. So I was like, I have all this stuff. Student debt, I need to somehow make use of my degrees without just, completely, pivoting. So I found an active work company in Maui, and I was offered the position to do designing there and I just kind of reached the limit because I felt like Hawaii was, more. the healthier lifestyle that I embodied and it was more rooted in nature and, an outdoor healthy lifestyle, which I really resonated with. So I was like, Hmm, these, these two go hand in hand. I've got design. I've got the lifestyle that I enjoy. Now I'm going to make it work. And then slowly I kept building my photography business on the side while I was working for that company. And then it reached a point where I hit the ceiling of that position. And I moved on and move forward and started my own, business.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 50:46

Wow. There's a lot there to dive into my gosh, so busy. Let me ask, because, I think when a lot of people listening, when they decide, you know, maybe I don't like this job that I have, maybe it doesn't align with, who it is that I am or, the lifestyle that I want to live, and then they consider photography, oftentimes photography is, I think for a lot of listeners, at least, it's thought of as like, that's not a real job, you know, coming from that corporate world. Did you ever have any feelings of that? And if so, how did you overcome those?

Alanna O'Neil: 51:18

I definitely did. I was like, how can I make money selling photos? Because especially now in this world of AI, where you can create photos and it's so easy to generate images and you don't really need to have the. Skill set really to, create an image for whatever purpose, but, I still have those questions and I still kind of have those? questions because the world is changing now, but I just feel like. What the best encouragement I could give to someone who's in that position of not knowing whether they can make photography their lives are their their work or their career is that if it truly does bring you joy and fulfillment, you have to keep following and just be Keep building that momentum and traction, because I feel like the more you keep following your intuition and just building and just keeps growing incrementally. and there were so many times that I received no's or rejections or no, we're respectful. Responded or I pitched to magazines or I pitched to, agencies and other brands, and I have like inboxes full of rejections and nose, but it's having that resiliency and that clear vision in your mind of knowing that this is what you want, because if there's a will, there's a way, and it may not be the way that you expect, and it may be this like roundabout zigzag way, But if you're very clear on, like, what your vision is for your business or the lifestyle that you want to create and the photography you want to shoot, it's undoubtedly possible. So it's just kind of having this unwavering confidence and, in your belief or in your belief in your vision and your, your abilities and the vision for your North Star or whatever, where you're going.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 53:07

Thank you for sharing that. I want to go back a little bit to, kind of your earlier days, right? Because you said that photography has kind of always been in your life. but, I know I know that like, when I was a child, obviously there weren't really any digital cameras, like digital was brand new as I started to get into high school, so I had to learn on film and at the time, you know, it's like everything on film was like, so, so manual and, there was, uh, quite a steep learning curve. did you experience anything through that or did you have a different path?

Alanna O'Neil: 53:36

Yeah. definitely. I think my mom, she gave me these, like, you know, those old point and shoot cameras. So it had all the little dials of manual aperture and shutter priority. was definitely a steep learning curve on learning from manual to, From, You know, using just auto, like, which any root beginner does, or like, if you're 12 years old or something, I didn't start and film other than just using my mom's camera when she would let me or, You know, playing in the dark room. But even now, I think the part that I found that was the most when I look back at it was the most challenging was just learning the technical aspects of photography. I'm not a technical person at all. I'm not like a gear person. It's for me. It's like, if you have, a really amazing lens and just like a semi okay body, I think you can come away with some really fantastic images. And I think. What's most important is having the ability to see and the ability to understand light and understand emotion and how to translate a moment in time, or tell a story in your frame. And so, Right. Right. Even now, I suggest new photographers if they don't feel entirely comfortable using manual mode, if they're still kind of like, not that they're fast enough to get the shot or, they're struggling with the balance of the ISO and shutter speed and all that, I say, just flip it into aperture priority and let the camera help you and you can learn that way because sometimes Aperture priority or shutter priority may be the better option than using manual mode. for instance, like when I'm traveling, next week I'm leaving for Europe and I don't want to be holding up the group by like figuring out like manual mode and like, you know, you just want to like point and shoot and then like move along. You don't want to have to stop one way for the light to change and then. Fill with your settings, just like flick it into aperture like maybe 4. 5 or something or 5. 6 and then let the camera help you and then you can learn, through that way by seeing how you maybe switch from that to manual and then play more on your own time. But I don't think there needs to be this pressure like, oh, you're not a professional photographer or you're not a decent photographer, you don't shoot in manual mode.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 55:58

Yeah, I'm the exact same way. Like know the importance of manual and I know like why it's so great because I've seen it in my own work, but also like when I. You know, I'm just out with the kids. Like I'm going to shoot that in an aperture priority because I want to spend time with them. Like I'm not trying to, uh, you know, make a, I don't know, competition where the images, like I'm just trying to take some family photos. And, uh, that definitely makes photography more fun when you do it that way. So, I appreciate you sharing that. so how, when it comes to, moving on in photography, right? Like, when we understand the technicals, like we get it, the technicals. Oftentimes. I think new photographers think like, that's what learning photography is. But then once you know them, you know them. It's like the learning of photography doesn't start until after you understand how to use the camera. so for you, like, I know that a big part of, what it is that you preach is visual storytelling. And this is an area where a lot of photographers get. lost and I think it's maybe it's because they're trying to do it too soon while they're still trying to figure out their camera. but tell me kind of your viewpoint on, visual storytelling because, it's really fascinating. And I think once you get a great understanding of it, it's easier to start progressing towards.

Alanna O'Neil: 57:05

Sure. I think visual storytelling is really at the heart of what makes a photo compelling or interesting, because. If you think about it, you could take a photo of an apple on the table and that's just an apple on the table. But what if you cut the apple and put, bread and then you tore up crumbles of bread. And you just like you expand upon this concept and visual storytelling is a way to draw in the viewer to really invest in the image that you're sharing. It's more than just sharing information on a screen. On the screen or on your camera mode. So you're actually translating an idea or a story across, to the viewer. And it's really innate in who we are as human beings, because we've been doing this for hundreds of thousands of years, that storytelling is really in our bones. And I think that the more we can lean on, how can we make this scene or moment more interesting or compelling or really tug at our humanness. it just draws you into the, scene. It makes you want to invest and see more and be more curious about, what's happening.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 58:12

So I think that that's, easy to say, right? And I'm not trying to push it here or anything, but like, it's easy to say

Alanna O'Neil: 58:17

Yeah. No, I can.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 58:18

create a story out of these images. But what did that look like for you? Like, how do we break that down for somebody listening who, again, they're still trying to figure out their camera settings. What does it actually look like to start building, a visual style in that visual storytelling ability?

Alanna O'Neil: 58:33

Sure. So if you think about it from say a movie or a book, so there's like a beginning, middle and end, and then there's usually a hero, like your main subject and that hero is going to be, go from point a to point B to point C. So if you think about a story in a book, it begins with something. So you have to set the stage. So you set the stage of, say. We're doing maybe a series of images. So maybe five images. You're going to set the stage of where this story is taking place. So say we're in, in Italy, and we are at a vineyard, a winery. So you're going to set the stage by taking the shot of maybe the hero shot of where this is happening. So you want to set this, the story in a time and place. So where is this story happening? And, what time of day is it? So you have to be really literal. Like if you were vocally telling a story about what's happening, sometimes I have had people actually literally write out the story on a As a piece of paper, as you can even go as far as like once upon a time, you know, blah, blah, blah, like literally write it out and then translate that into images. So once upon a time, there was a man who was picking grapes on this, olive grove and vineyard. And then he was. You know, to took all the grapes and then was starting to smash it and press the olives and then that's the character. And then you just follow the movement of what's happening. And then, of course, in these types of story, whether it's an or film and our movie or book, there's always moments of tension. There's always like a little bit of conflict. So maybe. It's a contrast. So maybe there is like high contrast in the images, or maybe there's questions on an answer in the frame. So maybe I like to think of visitor storytelling as You don't want the info, subject or the frame to be so obvious you want to leave a little room for questioning. You want the viewer to kind of question and you don't want to give them all the information or all the answers. You want to have to, like, find some moments of tension. Like they make them question. What is happening here? Like, maybe there's a reflection. You're maybe you're shooting from the barn. Through a window of a glass and at the man picking the olives, and you don't really know what's happening. And maybe someone's driving up on the road and you're capturing, this rushing of the car and the cars driving away fast. You're like, what's happening? I don't. There's this kind of like question and this can be done in so many other simple ways. Like maybe it's even, You know, you're saying you're at the table and then your hands are all red from crushing the grapes. And then, you step away and it's, the grapes are all pressed on the table and the hands are all, you know, red and, All you capture is just this empty room. And it's, you're wondering like, who was there? what just happened? And all you see is just the equipment that he was using to press the grapes. And now it's just nothing. There's just no one there. And it's just a dark, empty space that makes the viewer think like, what? It's happening. where did he go? what's happening now with these grapes? I mean, this is so simplistic and I just kind of coming up the top of my head here. But if you thinking about it in terms of telling an actual story in a film or a movie, there is a main character and then there are supporting elements as well. So these supporting elements could be Mhm. other subjects. It could be another child that's running down the road or the dog, the farm dog along the vineyard. And the dog is like sniffing the ground and picking up the grapes and eating them. And maybe you capture just the picture of the dog. It's all creating context of this moment. And then, you know, Even in food photography, you know, you can have other supporting elements like supporting actors, maybe the main subject is a loaf of bread and then you have maybe the jam and then the butter and some cheese and then you have, wine and some wine spilt on the table. So it's all about creating context for this story that you're telling.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:02:40

Oh, wow. well, that kind of leads me to my next question because when it comes to like photographing things like food, I understand when it comes to people, you know, you can get these emotions out of them. You can, walk them through an action when it comes to like a loaf of bread. How do we, you know, add that, to a frame, but it seems like, you know, with your example there of the, having some spilled wine or whatever. Visually, I can see that in my head and like, it's a beautiful photo. but I can hear listeners asking, like, do we need to introduce tension in every photo? what are your thoughts on that? I'd love to hear.

Alanna O'Neil: 1:03:11

Yeah, I don't think you need to have tension in every photo, but I think you want to leave the viewer. Wanting to be more curious because, and it's also down just to personal preference because there's room for shots that it's just like a beautiful loaf of bread that's untouched in a cutting board. And it's just generally presented and that's, it is what it is. And that's beautiful. And that's just the type of photography and that's saying something and maybe it's more simplistic and pure. and it's really about, the beauty of this creation. but that's kind of it to me. That's just like a one note type of photo, I guess. Whereas if you cut the bread and you had maybe a child's hand reach up, try to like grab a piece of bread and there's butter and it's the table's a little bit messy and the sun's streaming in so you can clearly tell it's morning. the colors that you've chosen in the napkins and the tablecloths are like white. and yellow. So it's like happy and sunny feeling. There are all these ways that we can use elements like color and contrast and lighting to enhance the feeling of this bread. maybe it's just how maybe your grandmother's coming in to cut it in her weathered hands. create that capture of that feeling of nostalgia and warmth and comfort. So there's ways that we can Create, this humanness because I think when we can infuse a human element and just life into our photos, it makes it so much more relatable because to me, sometimes it's like a loaf of bread on a cutting board. That's all it is. It's a minimal, clean, pure shot, but I personally. It's just, that's, it is what it is. It's not, there's nothing else there to delve deeper into. Whereas if you add more to that story, you can relate to it and there's like a humanness, element to it.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:05:03

I love, that, you know, you're talking about, creating these images, right? I think oftentimes new photographers think of just going through the world and capturing images of what's going on in their life. And you're talking about, like, manufacturing, creating these images, but still, doing it in a way that, tells this story. I think that's a perspective that doesn't really get talked about enough, but is, extremely important. So, To kind of go deeper into that, let's talk about context. you brought that up before. And context is actually something that I kind of struggle with because, growing up, some of my influences were like, documentary photographers, where it's like, their goal is to get everything into one photo, which means you got to have all the context. but for me, I always found that like my images would get too messy, you know, for you, like, what's the balance between including too much context and, don't know, still being able to communicate the story that you're trying to tell.

Alanna O'Neil: 1:05:55

Yeah, definitely. I think this even can go into just like photoshopping. Like when do you photoshop something out if it's like getting too messy or too much? I feel like, what's the story that you want to tell or what's the message that you want to convey and what elements in that shot or in that composition, A that or detract from it. So if you're thinking about documentary photography, there, sometimes you want to have everything and maybe you're shooting at like F 16 or something. So everything's like sharp and everything's in frame, but what elements. Are necessary to convey the message of this moment. Maybe you don't need to include the trash can in the corner of the street or the litter on the ground to actually convey the message that you want to share. Or maybe you do, maybe that. Dirty trash can in the trash on the streets actually helps convey the message and feeling of your story. You know what I mean? It's like really knowing like what do I want to convey in this image or in this message? And is it necessary and if not, is it detracting from you know, my thing is this bright red umbrella? Adding to this calm feeling of serenity by the beach, or is That, actually, should I just move my camera just a little bit to the left? So I crop it out, and just get this beautiful seascape with like white and blue and, you know, sandy colors. And that red umbrella would be completely detracting from my story or the feeling that I want to convey. So I think it goes back to just knowing what the message or the image that you want to create and share and then working backwards.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:07:33

That, sounds so simple, but I know from experience, I'm sure, you know, it's, one of those, uh, it's easier said than done. Like that can be a

Alanna O'Neil: 1:07:39

Mm hmm.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:07:40

did you work yourself through that?

Alanna O'Neil: 1:07:42

Well, I think it's hard when you're in the moment. Because you're just kind of say you're traveling and you're just out and about. It's, you can't really have time to think about these things. Like, what do I want to feel like in this stage, this story or scene? And I think it's just more of following your gut and your intuition, automatically knowing, like you pick up the camera, like, actually, I don't like that, I'm going to crop that out. It's just like more about following your moment. And I think it, or your intuition and, fine tuning it as you go, because. When you are traveling or you're just in your daily life, you know, in street photography or whatever, you can't just take your time because you're going to miss the moment and you can't have these broad conceptual thoughts of what's the emotion that I want to capture here. It's more of just like following the hit of the intuition of, hey, I like that scene or I like that. The way he was walking down the street. I'm going to shoot it. And I think it's just following your intuition because I think that will help you fine tune your eye and also your style because we don't have the grace of time where we can plan everything out to a tee and, oh, I'm going to style the bread just so, or I'm going to capture it just this way. I think it's, yeah. If it looks interesting and it feels compelling to you, capture it and follow it and then you'll learn next time. But I think the more you just keep following your intuition, that helps.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:09:03

Yeah, of course. I mean, photography is such a subjective thing that, uh, there's that quote and I've shared it a million times here on the podcast. I think it's Ansel Adams who said that. There's two people in every photo, the photographer and the viewer, right? And,

Alanna O'Neil: 1:09:16

hmm. Mm

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:09:17

leaves a lot there for the photographer to input themselves in a photo and it all comes down to the intention, which I love. I love how you shared that there. do you have any exercises, anything that we can do to start to. recognize what is, popping up to us, what is grabbing our attention and how to photograph it in a way that is more than just simply, uh, visual information, but it conveys more, essence to it.

Alanna O'Neil: 1:09:43

Yeah. one helpful, practical thing is to give yourself an assignment, say I'm going to go to this location in my town or place, or maybe it's a park or something, and you're going to create or capture anything that feels interesting to you, because I think that when you come back from this, maybe, and you really put your focus and time into it, you'll come back with images and you'll see like, Why did I shoot this? Why was this? Why did I, want to capture this woman walking down the street this way? Because when you start to question why you take pictures, you can start to pull apart your actual eye and like what you find interesting in your style. because I think when you, let yourself be free and be more playful and more candid and casual in the way you shoot, you'll start to chip away at your style, because if something feels interesting or compelling to you, When you're out on this assignment, ask yourself why, like, why am I drawn to this color? Why the orange and blue and the pink, are this way? what is it? And the more you ask yourself these questions and you look at all these images that you take over periods of time, you can see like things that are, you are drawn to and the way you see things, if that makes sense. it's so hard to verbalize, but when you think about What am I interested in shooting and why, it. will help you understand how you can one, find those images and like where to actually look for them, because when you see them, they'll stand out in your mind because you'll start to see like, oh, wow, I always, for some reason, I always shoot from this angle, or I always tend to be. Shooting at this light and there's time of day are always been using this setting. What if I maybe try something different or maybe I experimented and, shot in a different way. So I think the more open we are to experimenting and then also questioning the images that we do take or the ones that we don't like, It's not about our favorite photos. It's also the ones that we don't like. Like, why didn't this photo work or why didn't this scene appeal to me? personally, I don't like wedding photography. That's not my thing, but there's something there that I can learn about when like, there's something I can learn about wedding photography to translate into my own work. So the more you try and fail and like, you know, Just ask questions, like, bigger questions. It helps you chip away at, like, who you are, as a photographer, if that makes sense.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:12:17

It does. It does. And in fact, I know that, you know, you shoot food. I've seen your photos of, I don't know if they're sourdough or whatever loaves of bread that, were on your Instagram recently. Beautiful and like it made me want, it made me hungry. Like I wanted to eat them. But at the same time, you also have photos of, these beautiful horses and these images of, like sweeping landscapes, as you were saying earlier. as you go through like the different genres of photography, right? From food, nature, wildlife, I guess you could say for animals. do you think are the common things that string those images together? for you as a artist, from your perspective, how do you tie all those images together?

Alanna O'Neil: 1:12:54

Yeah, that's one I've struggled with because I felt so boxed in. Like I'm only going to do food photography. Like I'm only going to do flat lay free photography and work with this type of brands. And I just felt so stifled in that genre that I was like, this is not me. And I felt like I could just broaden myself, you know, I'm interested in street photography, landscapes. animals, these are all my own personal interests. And so it's like, how can I infuse my own personal interest into my work? And that's when I feel like I'm the strongest and I, enjoy it more. And I think it can be boiled down to, emotions and feelings. Like I hope that. My photography has all the general same feelings and emotions where they're very sensitive and thoughtful and reflective, and they maybe have a hint of nostalgia and they, are very much. They have a calming a calmness to them and, a reverence for beauty. So I'm hoping that all of these feelings are translated across all of the types of genres that I, I do. So, that's why I may not. Show certain types of photos or different types of colors because they don't really resonate with those feelings, even though, you know, in reality, I love vibrant, beautiful colors, but the feelings that I want to evoke throughout my portfolio and just my work in general, I find that I can keep going back to these types of feelings and emotions, across all the genres, whether it's landscape, landscape, landscape. Horses or animals or food, whatever. they're all, still present there.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:14:31

I appreciate you sharing that is color the main way that you communicate these feelings of, sensitive, thoughtful, nostalgic, reflective through your images, or do you use any other visual tools?

Alanna O'Neil: 1:14:42

yeah, definitely. Those are, uh, that's really important. Color is so powerful, but also there's also ways of just like light, you know? And I think we can have to let ourselves evolve because at first I started being really light and bright and airy because that felt more like home, like peaceful and calming. But I've also been experimenting with more like moody and darker because That also can be really reflective as well, there's different sides to moodiness. Like moody can be, quiet. It can be subtle. It can be gentle. And that's also just another side of the coin of what I want to convey. So, and it's also, composition because, for instance, I try not to have a My photos be super busy and like crazy just like really energetic and feeling. I try to keep it very, clean and calming to look at visually. So composition is another. so I think lighting is one. And color another and also just composition and, I also balance, like, just trying to keep my images really balanced. So it does evoke that calm, peaceful, beauty, type of feeling in my images.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:15:58

I gotta say, your, use of adjectives are on point. I could only hope to, be that good with words, someday. Uh, that's why I got into photography. Yeah, they're great. I wanna know though, like, from your perspective, where do other photographers get this wrong? Because, they do, I've seen photographers and, their images don't feel like I couldn't name three adjectives, to describe another photographer's work. Cause it just kind of all over

Alanna O'Neil: 1:16:20

hmm. Mm

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:16:21

perspective, where do you see them get it wrong?

Alanna O'Neil: 1:16:23

this is really hard because I was there too, where I was trying a million different things, experimenting, in certain ways. It's like a kid in a candy store. I want this. I want to do it this way. I'm doing this and I'm going to shoot this way. When you're experimenting with so different, many things or someone that you really admire, you want to shoot in their style or their way. And you, you kind of get lost in that process because you are pulled in all these different directions. And that's totally I think a part of the process is experimenting, broadening your horizons of what's possible and what you can do with your camera. And I think you need to expose yourself to different types of genres and styles to actually kind of find out who you are. So, I think there is that process of you have to go through to kind of get through to the other side. I think at the heart of it, it's really knowing who you are, in this moment. And of course you're going to grow and evolve. Like I'm a completely different photographer than I, when I first started and it's giving herself that grace to keep, growing and evolving, but I think you should have some base to come back to where, who am I? Like, who am I? What do I want? My. Core my photography to be and feel like, and again, maybe it is going down picking up her dictionary or whatever the source and like, writing down adjectives in a notebook and literally writing down or even maybe just picking them. Solid images of your work, or maybe someone else's. And this is the core of what I want to be focusing on right now.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:18:28

that sounds like a lot of work. Sounds like it's going to take a lot of time. It sounds like it's going to take more than a weekend, in photography. which of course is ridiculous. what sorts of exercises can we do? You know, we know that we can go down and we can, photograph the things that just kind of, stand out to us. But let's say somebody who's listening, maybe they're at the next step, right? They know what kind of interests they have. how do we go deeper? Like, is it through editing? Is it more through composition? Like, how do we go deeper into, visual storytelling than simply, noticing the things that we, are drawn to?

Alanna O'Neil: 1:19:01

sure. I think it's also coming back to, so in visual storytelling, I always come back to life. using life as a reference. So what in this moment, whatever you're looking at or shooting or feeling, how can you infuse life into it? and there doesn't even need to? have a human being in there. How can you infuse life? this photo with life like that's whoever's seeing it or viewing it can feel like they are there like that. They, they can feel the dew on the grass. They can feel the light streaming through the trees. They can feel, the sunshine on their shoulders if they were sitting on that park bench. Like, what are the ways and that could be me. Maybe it's how you angle your camera and you shoot the light coming down. through the trees, and you can actually maybe have some lens flare. It's like little ways like that. It's like, how can you make a viewer feel like they're in this moment? it's just a very simple way of, basic storytelling. It's like, how can you through color or the way you crop, or you shoot, or the way you angle your, scene, or in the way you compose it, what would help the viewer feel like they're in this moment?

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:20:13

Wow, I gotta say, maybe it's your use of adjectives, but you seem so sure of yourself in photography, and that is, envious, you know, so, if, I guess one, do you feel that way internally, and two, I know that we've all grown in our journey. So if you could go back and tell nine year old Alana, one thing about the world of photography, to get you here faster, like what would it be? What advice would you give yourself?

Alanna O'Neil: 1:20:36

wrote about this, I think, a few blogs ago, I was like, the one thing I would tell myself back when I was a kid was not to be afraid of trying different things and failing over and over again. Just follow my intuition and just shoot and not worry about what everyone thought about it, like, Oh, if it was a good picture or not, because there's value to be had. And be taken from a terrible photo. and I'm still learning, like, I am not confident and solely competent in the technical aspects of photography. There's so much that I can still learn and grow from even, you know, I don't even I can use natural light only. I've never shot. With, strobes or, artificial lights. So that's a completely out of my wheelhouse. And so I'm, there's always something for me to learn and grow from, but what I would say back to my younger self is not to be shy and not to be afraid to take horrible pictures and just keep trying and experimenting. And not to be afraid to share them because if the thing is, you have to get through what, like 10, 000 photos to actually get to the good stuff or something I've heard, you have to have this, these bad photos because you'll learn, through them. So I would say for anyone who's starting is to just be free and not be precious with your work. Don't feel pressure and don't feel precious about it. Like, most people are on digital cameras and you can easily delete your whole memory card. You can delete photos. It's not like you're wasting money or on film. Just shoot, shoot, shoot and just be casual and like loose about it and don't overthink it because I think when you get too stuck in your mind of like, Oh, I shouldn't be doing it this way or shooting this way. Just practice and practice and practice and keep just shooting. And then you'll, the more you'll feel. comfortable with your camera and it's like a part of you. It's like a second, it's like your second companion. You're like your third eye. It's just always there. And you just, yeah, it's just with you at all times. And, you can just feel natural in your hand and you don't have to think too hard and be precious. Like, well, should I do this setting or should I do it this way? And again, that's where I can think you can lean on the aperture priority primarily, when you're just beginning because It will help you just learn to see, seek moments and understand light, easier and faster.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:23:04

That was perfect. For those who maybe they're not doing any sort of client work, they're not doing commissioned photos or anything like that, but they're just shooting for themselves to say document their life. One question that I always think about is like, what do you do with your photos? do they just live on Instagram? do they get printed? So just for you personally, like, what do you like to do with your photos?

Alanna O'Neil: 1:23:25

Yeah. I wish I could say I love printing them. I just, I don't, but I, I want to, I have some that I've taken and I have printed because it is really nice to feel something tangible. I took this like this. You can feel it in your hands and you see it on your wall, and it's like a wonderful memory of, the moment. So, personally, um, I, have this like love hate relationship with Instagram because the algorithm and all this stuff, I don't think it's helpful for photographers because we're very much statically based and now it's moving into video and reels. So I would say if you're just beginning, you can of course share like document, it's like a visual documentation or a journal of your life or your moments. And I think that's totally fine. But personally, I think if you're just a hobbyist, there is something really lovely to see your work in print and it doesn't need to be this, you know, giant poster size in your bathroom or your bedroom. It could just be a five by seven, maybe a little collection of, you know, images, that you've shot and just have some personal, meaning to you. I highly encourage that and there are so many fantastic ways of printing your images, out there. So.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:24:38

I recently came across a company that does like, it's very small photo books. I think they're only like 20 pages, right? Teeny tiny. And, I got one in fact, it's only like six inches by six inches. It's very small. And I thought to myself at first, like, why? I don't even know what the point of this is, right? But I ordered it because it was dirt cheap. And I got it and the kids opened it up and they looked through it and they just had so much fun looking at these photos from like the past month. Like these are still like very recent memories to them. And it's only such a small selection of photos that I think for them, for them, they're young kids, right? So it's like they're used to. Thousands of photos like being overwhelmed with the amount of content that's available to them and to have something that has a start, there's a front page and then there's the last page and then there's just a few handfuls of photos in between, was really interesting to see them, use and something that I wasn't used to in photography, you know, you don't normally think of these things, but, without print, I wouldn't have got that moment. So I'm right there with you. It's, it's great to be able to hold on to something.

Alanna O'Neil: 1:25:38

yeah, I made one for my dad for his birthday once. he came to Maui once and I made a photo book of his time here. and it wasn't just family pictures, it was like the picture of the flowers out front or the ocean. And, and again, it goes back to this story. It's like this little book. Holds a story of his visit, and it's just so thoughtful and sweet that, you know, you, of course, you could have them on your phone, but they get lost in the scroll. And it's so nice to just, like, open in and like, look at and you remember, and they're really thoughtful ways of capturing in moments and memories and having them in a way you can. You know, it looks beautiful and are really thoughtful. So I totally agree with you.

Raymond Hatfield (2): 1:26:21

Yeah, it's beautiful. It is so much fun. Well, Alana, we are at the end of our time. I know that people are thinking to themselves, I want to learn more about visual storytelling. I want to learn more about what Alana has to share. I want to find her online. Where's the best place to do so?

Alanna O'Neil: 1:26:36

Sure. They can find me online on my website. It's Alana O'Neill. com or Instagram. It's at Alana O'Neill photo. you can find me over there.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:26:46

All right, next, I chat with landscape photographer and fellow podcast host, Matt Payne. Today, Matt is going to teach you the importance of pre planning, by considering how light will hit different subjects in landscape photography. So you'll learn how focusing on smaller scenes and intimate landscapes can help you appreciate the beauty in overlooked details and create unique compositions. And then to wrap it up, Matt shares his technique for experimenting with shutter speed to capture movement in nature, to really create dynamic and interesting compositions. Matt you've been on the podcast like a number of times already. So normally I ask like, when did you know that photography was going to be, play an important role in your life, but I think we already know that answer. So, I want you to tell me, about this recent trip that you took that, consisted of more than 500 miles in 30 minutes. This sounds bananas to me, but, when you told me about it, you were super excited. tell me about what this trip was and what you were hoping to get out of it.

Matt Payne: 1:27:44

Yeah, so, for people who are familiar with through hiking, there's a trail here in Colorado called the Colorado Trail. It's considered one of the crown jewels of the three big thru hike trails in the United States. You have the Pacific Coast Trail, and then you have the Appalachian Trail, and then you have the Continental Divide Trail. The Colorado Trail is like a little, it's like, I don't know, a third of the CDT, Continental Divide Trail, and it's considered like the best part of it. And so it's about 500 miles. It goes from Denver to Durango. And I quit my job in June, because I was transitioning into full time photography. And I knew that I would have about two months off in between the two in the transition time. And I was like, man, when am I ever going to have the time available to be able to do something as epic as a 500 mile through hike? And so I started making all these plans way back in April, actually to do it. And, you know, there's a lot of logistics involved. you have to figure out where you're going to get your food, how many days of food you need for different parts of the trail, get all of your gear list specific to that, what you're going to need for that hike. and I knew that I was going to do it as a landscape photographer, which is as the word to use your word bananas, because as you know, camera gear is heavy, right? No kidding. And, so I. Went on this quest to like lighten my photography gear and get all of my other gear as light as I could get it And I ended up with a base weight before a photography gear of just about 15 pounds And then my photography gear added another six pounds and then of course then you add in food and water So like I was ranging Anywhere between 30 and 40 pounds a day on my back. And I was averaging about 18 miles a day. So it took me 35 days to finish the trail, uh, which is about average. I would say for most people that do the Colorado trail, and this is actually how I got my trail name. people name you, people meet, meet you on the trail. There's kind of this fun culture and through hiking and you get a trail name like based on a personality quirk or something weird or strange that happened to you, whatever my trail name is extra credit because, in addition to doing, 500 miles and doing, 17 18 miles a day. I also climbed 30 mountains along the way. So that involves a lot of getting up really early to do these side hikes. It involves deviating off the trail and climbing mountains that were connected via ridges. I added a lot of extra elevation gain that most people don't have on the Colorado trail, but basically, as you know, from my first conversation with you, I was a mountain climber before I was a photographer and that's how I got into photography and, as soon as I decided I was going to do the Colorado trail, I looked on Gaia GPS for where the trail went through and I just started identifying mountains that I've. That would I've always wanted to climb or that were kind of in the proximity of the trail. And I just started making routes of climbing mountains on Gaia GPS for things that were going to be close by to where I was hiking. So, I didn't, I probably identified probably 40 mountains in total that I thought would be. Good targets. And then I ended up doing about 30 of them. Well, exactly 30 of them, but okay.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:31:08

So one, we could, um, go down the psychological, element of doing a trip like this, or we could stay on the photography, aspect of it. And, until I changed the name to the beginner psychological, uh, Psychologist podcast. I think we'll stick with photography. So, 30 mountains. that is awesome. and going on this trip sounds amazing as well. What was your hope from the photography standpoint? Because when I think of going out and shooting landscapes, I think it's very calm. It's relaxing. I can take my time. You know, the mountain's not going anywhere. Just wait for the right light and then take the photo. But when you got 18 miles a day that you have to cover, there's got to be some time pressure on that as well as You know, you don't really have an option to come back a day later if conditions aren't favorable, so let's start with what was it that you were hoping to achieve with your trip?

Matt Payne: 1:31:57

It's an awesome question. So it's funny you said psychological or photography because I found that they're, at least for me, they're inextricably linked together, especially for something like a 500 mile hike where you're trying to take photographs on the way. So I kind of had. Three goals for my, through hike. the first one was just to have an amazing experience in nature with no expectations of what may or may not happen, you know, and have a, you know, put a feather in the cap, so to speak, like something to be proud of when you're 70 year old, 70 years old with your grandkids. And well, I did the Colorado, you know, that kind of thing. You know what I mean? But then the second one was, um, I actually purposely set out with the intent of creating video content while I was on the trail. Oh my gosh,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:32:45

that's just a whole other element, Matt. What are you doing? Oh yeah, man,

Matt Payne: 1:32:47

I'm sorry. But, uh, what I wanted to do was, while I was hiking, because you know you have a lot of downtime and you're, constantly just, you know, thinking and your brain is just, you know, you're, there's no distractions. So your brain is free to be much more creative. Right. And I knew that that was, well, I didn't know, but I had this hope that I was going to have all these great ideas come to me while I was hiking. And so I wanted to do these, I did a video and I ended up doing it. So I did a video every single day and it was basically a recap of what the day was like. And then a philosophical or psychological goal. that I kind of came up with that day, relating to life or relating to photography or relating to relationships or philosophy or exercise, whatever. and so I kind of just strung those together somewhat randomly every day. And then the, extra layer of what I wanted to do with this content and these ideas is that, man, if these are any good, maybe with the photographs I'm taking on the trail and with these concepts that I'm developing, maybe I could write a book, that's full of essays and photographs that are kind of linked with my experience of hiking the Colorado Trail, climbing these mountains along the way. And then these. psychological, revelations, I guess that I, that I had along the way. So, that was my intention. And then I guess I said there was a third thing. And then the third thing was to make some interesting photographs. I did not have specific photographs in mind, like, Oh, I have to be at this place at that time. I was very open to just, you know, while I'm hiking, if I see something that catches my attention, capture it kind of more of a documentary approach to the photography side of things. But, with maybe a fine art twist of, you know, maybe I, for example, I'm hiking through a dark forest. Right at sunrise, and there's wildflowers growing up to the forest floor, just the tips of the wildflowers are getting hit with the first light of day, everything around them and below them is dark. So you have this mysterious kind of ethereal image of a wildflower in a dark forest. So those kind of images I was just kind of keeping my eye out for. And then of course, Especially in the parts of Colorado that I'm more familiar with where in the mountainous areas, I purposely placed myself in those areas for longer periods of time and kind of pre planned out some of my campsites that would be close to some hopefully scenic places that I could Do side trips to take photographs, after I get my campsite set up, let's go to the top of this ridge and photograph this amazing scene. So there was a little bit of pre planning in terms of what I wanted to capture, but mostly I just wanted to have no expectations of and just be reactive as a photographer and see what I could come up with.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:35:43

now that the trip is over and you've put the feather in your hat, tell me about some of the images that you were able to capture. Because if you're not going out and, having this idea in your head, which I think is great because so many times I've gone out with an attempt to shoot and I had expectations for what I wanted. And then I arrived and they were just completely crushed. And that is hard to recover from right away. So going out and just being open and seeing what you could get, looking back at your photos, do you find that there's any sort of. Pattern between them that you found interesting.

Matt Payne: 1:36:13

Yeah. So I just want to touch on one thing you just said, because earlier in my career as a landscape photographer, I was very, planning focused like you're describing, you know, okay, I'm going to get to this location and I know the composition I want to capture and I know exactly what photograph I want to get. And while that approach to photography can yield some really great results, in my experience over the last 15 years is that It can lead to a lot of burnout and failure and, depression. I honestly, because so often it just doesn't happen the way you pre visualize it would happen. And so I've adopted a more of a kind of. put myself in interesting places and be very open minded to discovering and finding images that speak to me and are, catch my attention. And so to answer your question more specifically, I definitely found myself photographing a lot of smaller scenes. for example, hiking on the trail, Oh, look at that fallen tree. That's got this really cool pattern on the wood. That's exposed to the elements. That's a cool photograph. I'll photograph that for a second. Do do do do do. Oh, look, there's a field full of wildflowers and a really beautiful mountain behind it. I'll photograph that. Cool. That's great. Do do do do do. Oh, look at how the light is hitting the sides of that mountain with the trees over there. I can photograph that at a longer focal length. So a lot more kind of intimate, smaller scenes for sure is what I was drawn to. But then I was also, I kind of had a rekindling of my love of the grand scenic images, which I find can be very challenging if you don't have good conditions. A lot of those images are very conditions dependent. And some of the ones that I were. that I got that were really great is because I had fantastic conditions, really amazing light. I put myself in some really interesting places like two, three miles off trail at campsites above tree line where, maybe there's a single 14, 000 foot mountain reflected in this huge lake, scenes like that. I found myself trying to get to and capture. So it kind of ran the full gamut of small scenes, abstracts, details. into my landscapes and grand scenics kind of all together, which was super fun to photograph. So yeah, like basically just whatever I came across that I found

Raymond Hatfield: 1:38:32

interesting, I made a photograph. When it comes to just kind of shooting, like what is right there in front of you, I think what's interesting is that like that to me is the type of photographer I am, like wherever I am. That's where I'm at right and like that's what I'm gonna shoot. You said that there wasn't much pre planning but With your knowledge and skills having shot landscapes for so long like what sorts of things were you? Maybe you wouldn't consider planning But you were still doing whether it be leaving, super early in the day or you not shooting between You know, I don't know, 11 and four or something like that. Like, if somebody else were to go out on a trip like this, like what are kind of some of the basic things that they should just think about to start taking amazing photos?

Matt Payne: 1:39:16

Well, first of all, I think we need to dismiss ourselves of this idea that you can only take good landscape photographs in golden hour. You're right. That was my

Raymond Hatfield: 1:39:25

fault. I apologize. That was just terrible.

Matt Payne: 1:39:27

No, no, it's I mean, to be fair, like, that is are usually when you get some of the most amazing photographs. However, you can also still make some great photographs at any hour of the day. So that'd be my first thing to say to people is, pay attention to the way the light is hitting different subjects. And when you're on a, in a place like the Colorado trail, you know, you're in these valleys, you're in mountainsides, there's lots of different opportunities for, clouds to create interesting light. One of my favorite images that I haven't even processed yet was it was like 11 in the morning, maybe something like that. And I was on this, trail kind of coming down this mountainside in this Valley and across from me was another mountainside with these jagged spires, kind of all in a line. And it just happened to be where the sun was high in the sky behind them, and it was casting a shadow through those, or I guess behind those, pinnacles, and it literally, it looked like a bunch of dragon claws or fangs or, I mean, it had like this very abstract feel to it, and so I was photographing that, 11 in the morning, but I also it Definitely, definitely tried to put myself in some really opportune locations at great times, for example, got up at two in the morning from my campsite one morning to climb to the top of the second highest mountain in Colorado so that I could photograph sunrise at the top, ended up getting to the top, like, 45 minutes before sunrise and it was windy and freezing cold, but got some really incredible images up there, getting, staying up late, going to little vantage points where you might have an interesting composition of a valley and a mountain. a lot of it was just studying the map. understanding where the light was going to be at certain times of the day, having that intimate familiarity with the mountains and how they react to different light, at different times of the day. For me, that was a huge advantage that I went into it with because with that familiarity of subject, I didn't really have to think too much. I just knew like, Oh, if I'm going to be at this part of the, on the map at four o'clock tonight, it's, I'm going to probably want to get myself to this part because it's going to look awesome looking that direction, you know? So a lot of that kind of stuff, just understanding. The topography and how light impacts topography. I think it played a huge role in what influenced where I went.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:41:50

How do you, well, I guess if you're really into landscapes and going out on hikes and shooting, you're probably gonna start learning that stuff on your own. So I'm not going to ask how to read a topography map right here on the podcast. I bet that would be really hard to explain, in an audio, first, platform, but, um, going out. So. when you're out and you're shooting, the first, you have to know that you make it to where you need to go that day. And then, second, or maybe third, second, you probably have to eat. And then third, like, somewhere down that list is photography, even though, like, it's still important to you. How did you know, at the end of your trip, whether or not you captured all the photos that you needed to?

Matt Payne: 1:42:30

So, going back to what I had said earlier, I intentionally did not put that kind of pressure on myself for the trip from a photography perspective. Mostly because I know this about myself that if I go out on a photography trip, whether it be for one day or a week or whatever, if I have preconceived ideas of what I want to capture, I typically will develop a lot of tunnel vision and miss out on a lot of photographs that might end up being some of my favorite photographs of that particular trip. And I made that realization on a photography trip back in 2017, where I had this almost like a shot list for, it was a fall photography trip, which I do every year, but I almost had like a shot list. Like I want to photograph this scene in the morning on that day. And I had all these locations pre planned. And I remember three days into the trip, I was just Literally, I was about to quit photography. I was like, this is so ridiculous. I'm not getting anything. I like, dang it. Mother nature just is not giving me what I expect. Right. And so I was so frustrated that day that I decided to, I just looked at the map and I said, you know, what, Why did I get into photography to begin with? It was because I was hiking and climbing mountains and reacting to scenes that I saw that I thought were beautiful. That's how I got into this to begin with, right? So I'm like, how do I get back to that passion that drove me into photography to begin with? So I found a trail that was like a mile away from where I was at, never hiked it before, didn't know where it goes, started hiking that trail, got to this. Top of this huge plateau and witnessed one of the most ridiculous, Colorado mountain scenes that I've ever seen in my life. I still consider it probably the top three views in Colorado, and I'd never, ever, ever seen anyone else photograph it before. And I studied a lot of scenes in Colorado before, right? It was incredible. And, and it was just a huge reminder to me that some of your best photographs come from just putting yourself in nature. and relying on your intuition to capture photographs that speak to you. and the added benefit of that is that those photographs are more personal to who you are as a person, because that's, you know, you noticed it. It's you were drawn to it for whatever reason, whether it be the light or the color. Or the shapes, or the textures, or the subject matter, whatever it is. And then your job as the photographer is to capture in a way that is interesting for the viewer. So, I went into this whole Colorado Trail thing knowing that I wasn't going to pre plan any of the shot lists. Yeah, I put myself into some really cool spots on purpose, and I intentionally gave myself extra time in the parts of the Colorado Trail that that were more target rich for photography. And I, the areas that I kind of, Didn't think we're going to be as good. I was like, okay, I'm going to hike 24 miles a day,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:45:34

you

Matt Payne: 1:45:36

know, or like my first day I did 20, 28. 7 miles or something like that in my very day one. Yeah. and it wasn't because that part of the state is boring. It's just. Just not as interesting to me as a photographer, although I captured some photographs that I really liked. So for me, it was about understanding who I am as a photographer, what makes me tick, and then just, leaning into it as hard as I could. So I did a lot of that, but it wasn't. super pre calculated or anything like that. It was, again, just reacting and responding to what nature gave me and, and going from there.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:46:12

Yeah. And I mean, you have a lot of experience, like you've been in these situations before. It's not like this was your first time just going out and winging it and hoping for the best. So sometimes I feel like that element gets a little bit lost. so obviously talking about that is, is pretty important, but what I'm really interested in is, as a wedding photographer, I would look at a lot of other wedding photos from other photographers and I could kind of pick out, well, what makes my images different than other photographers as well, right? When you're shooting a lot of the same targets, right, these locations as other photographers, how would you describe your work as being different from other landscape photographers?

Matt Payne: 1:46:50

Well, that's a great question. And, that's part of the, Hopefully the evolution that you go through as a photographer is that you start to pick up on things that differentiate you as a photographer from other photographers. And at the risk of, you know, sounding arrogant or whatever, I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about how to do that. And because early on in my photography career, I spent a lot of time emulating other people. I would look at photographs online and I would say, I want to go photograph that exact same composition. And some people say that can be a good way to learn because you start to understand composition and light and all that kind of stuff. But it also kind of steals the thunder of that original photographer a little bit. If you're just copying that, copying other people ad nauseum. And once I kind of made that connection, I decided, okay, I need my work to be my work. I want it to be a reflection of who I am as a, as an individual. I want it to reflect the things in nature that I'm most interested in, which for me happens to be geology. It happens to be, finding patterns in the chaos of nature. It happens to be, leveraging like really interesting light that isn't necessarily sunrise or sunset. Like maybe it's. But the way that the light's reflecting off of that lake and the subjects that are in the lake makes for an interesting scene. Maybe there's some interesting reflections in the lake. try to, leverage the things that I'm most drawn to in nature. Like if I'm hiking and I say, Whoa, look at that thing. What the heck is that? For me, that's a huge clue that I should make a photograph of that, whatever that thing is. and it might not be a good photograph, right? It might be just planting a seed to a photograph that might be better tomorrow or two days from now that's of a similar subject. But better. So, it's pattern recognition, it's, you plant all these seeds and then you start cultivating them, you start nurse, you know, you start feeding those seeds with water and, and then eventually they grow into better and better versions of what, what was originally, you were originally

Raymond Hatfield: 1:48:58

drawn to. I know that you've, taught workshops before, so like you see other photographers and the things that they shoot. And you see the things that you see. Do you see any sort of like disconnect where other photographers are focusing on the wrong thing? Or is that just a personal preference of what, what you find interesting?

Matt Payne: 1:49:15

Yeah, I know. It's funny because I feel like. Most photographers, when they're first starting out, they're approaching it with, this kind of childlike mind, like they're so excited, they're learning how to use the camera for the first time. And most of the time, they're photographing stuff that they find interesting, right? then for a lot of people, somewhere along the way, that kind of childlike curiosity gets crushed by the shoulds and the woulds and the have nots and the social media. And so I think what I often find is that people, don't trust their instincts. They try to please other people. they're looking at what's popular on Instagram and they're saying, Oh, I should probably do that too. If that's what's popular, then that's what I should go photograph also. And. While that can make you also popular on social media, it doesn't really do much to differentiate you as a photographer in this vast field of things. Now, if you find joy and enjoyment out of that, and it's fun for you to copy what other people are doing, Go for it, right? I don't, you know, knock yourself out. But I offer up that if you go back to what got you into photography to begin with and you photograph the things that you're drawn to without any regard to popularity and fame and fortune and what's popular on social media, I think you're going to find that photography will be a much longer thing that you're engaged in for your life over the course of your life And you're gonna get a lot more long term Enjoyment out of it without experiencing burnout.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:50:56

That's hard That's really hard because a lot of times when you're getting into something you only know what you've seen so almost like switching that part of your brain to say actually Instead of looking for the things that I've seen before, what do I see? And that's really, did you struggle with that as well?

Matt Payne: 1:51:14

I did. in fact, I remember I was on a trip in, I think it was that 2017 trip and I was out photographing with some friends of mine who I hold in very high regard. Some of my favorite photographers who have a very unique and personal vision and then a unique approach to their photographs. Alex Noriega, Sarah Marino, Ron Coscarosa, David Kingo, Jennifer Renwick. And we were just in a truck driving through the country in Colorado in fall. And I told them, I'm like, I just don't see the stuff you guys see. I just, I don't, I don't know how you do it. And they were like, well, What are the things that you notice and why don't you why aren't you spending more time with those subjects? And it just clicked with me. I'm like, yeah, you're right. I see things all the time I think look cool, but I don't spend enough time photographing them So I think if you want to become really unique and different in this crowded field You need to spend a lot of time Experimenting, failing, failure is good. I say fail fast and fail often and learn from those mistakes because the next time you see that subject, you're going to photograph it maybe slightly better or slightly differently and your work's just going to continue to improve. I also encourage, especially new photographers, I encourage you to look at the work of a lot of photographers and Instagram. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Buy some photography books, right? Like, I know we're going to talk a little bit about this, but I run a competition, and we compile the best photographs of over 15, 000 images that are submitted. And we compile the best of the best images that we like the most in a 220 page book. And, um, The course of doing that competition for me has made me a better photographer because I'm just starting to see things in nature that otherwise I would have previously just not paid any attention to. So having a lot of familiarity with a wide array of techniques and subjects, I think is going to make you better and be inspired, but don't copy. Right? I definitely caution people like don't look at an image and say, okay, I'm going to go make an exact replication of that photograph. It's just, you're not going to grow as a photographer if you do that.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:53:29

Can you give me an example of something that you've been inspired by, but you didn't want to copy? Like what's something that you saw maybe in some of the photos that came into this, through the challenge and you thought to yourself, wow, that's amazing. I can use an aspect of this in my own photography.

Matt Payne: 1:53:44

Yeah, I mean one example that comes to mind. she didn't enter our competition, but she's been on my podcast her name is Rachel Talabar. She's a UK photographer and she does a lot of seascapes and I live in Colorado So I never photograph seascapes Yeah, but I do occasionally get the chance to photograph stuff in the coast on occasion Last year, I did a trip out to Oregon, the Oregon coast, to do a workshop out there. And she has a series of images of seashells and really abstract patterns in the water on the beach, kind of just looking straight down. And I've always been captivated by those images because there's a lot of motion conveyed in the images and they're very simple and minimalistic. And what I challenged myself to do was not copy those images, but then try to figure out. Like reverse engineer, how did she create these images? And so I just went out into the beach and just started experimenting with, different shutter speeds, a little bit of intentional camera movement. I mean, I was just trying everything I could to try to figure out how she got those images. And I finally got a few that I was like, Okay. That's how she did it. And that, and it was a lot of fun, right? a lot of frustration too, because, you know, the waves are coming and then they're going and the shells are moving around, but like, that's the fun of, just trying new techniques and, appreciating other people's work and trying to figure out how they captured those photographs.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:55:05

Beautiful. is there anything within that that you're able to use while you were in the mountains?

Matt Payne: 1:55:10

Oh, man, not in the mountains, but yeah, it's just, it's scaffolding. It's, you know, you learn a technique and then you build upon that technique and then you make some mistakes and then you fix those mistakes and then, The important part of growing as a photographer is looking back, looking at your work and figuring out, okay, what worked and what, what could I have done better? And then next time you're in the field, you're going to remember that stuff, right? Hopefully your work continues to improve over time, right?

Raymond Hatfield: 1:55:39

Yeah. that's the goal. I don't know anybody who says, you know what? I hope I can become a worse photographer by this time next year. And if they are, I'd gladly buy some of their camera gear off them. Let's talk more that now that you touched upon it about the Natural Landscape Photography Awards, because, this to me is fascinating. a few years ago, I, reviewed, I think it was, Luminar, like one of the first AI, uh, editing tools, and their big thing was like sky replacement. And I thought, this is so cool. Like it's now so easy to just replace the sky. And so many times on a wedding day, especially here in Indiana, just like there's nothing in the sky. It's just nothing. So unless you're like six feet tall, looking kind of like seven feet tall, looking down on somebody, you're going to get sky in your image. And if that's boring, I'd rather have a, an interesting sky today. This is everywhere. It's all the time it's nonstop. So kind of the idea behind the natural landscape photography awards, like is really interesting to me. So can you share with me what it's about, what your mission is and what it is that you're accomplishing?

Matt Payne: 1:56:37

Man, hopefully you got like six hours here because I'm really passionate about this particular topic. But, uh, Hopefully you can do

Raymond Hatfield: 1:56:44

it in two and a half minutes.

Matt Payne: 1:56:46

Right. Okay. So back in 2020, I partnered up with three other photographers who shared a similar vision that I have in terms of kind of appreciating the more eyewitness tradition of landscape photography and nature photography being, I wouldn't say Documentary, I think documentary gets kind of a bad, you know, leaves people with a bad taste in their mouth because it is after all artwork, right? We're creating art. But I think over the years because of social media, Instagram, and, sites like 500 PX, things like that, people have, gotten this approach of landscape photography where they're constantly just pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing the envelope, right? And what that's turned into is, um, instead of taking the requisite time to actually get a photograph right in the field with amazing light, people are creating it using software and that's all fine and good. You can get some amazing results. However, if you're like me and you I don't know, this is going to sound elitist and I don't mean it to, but if you hold yourself to a standard where you don't want to manipulate your work in that way, because maybe you take pride in the photographs you're capturing actually representing the experience that you witnessed as a photographer, then That type of work, especially as it relates to photography competitions, can become a little bit problematic because it becomes much, much more difficult for someone like me to have any of my photography compete against somebody who is adept at not only replacing skies, but also adding in different foreground elements, stretching and warping mountains to make them look bigger and more magnificent than they actually are in real life. doing perspective blends where you've got a 14 millimeter foreground and you've got a 75 millimeter mountain behind it and you're taking the best of both worlds. You know, all of those different techniques that have kind of come through in the last 10 years to perfect the landscape photograph, people like me in a competition setting. Good luck. You know, you're, you just, there's not as much wow factor, you know, my mountains haven't been stretched, you know, my colors and the light that I photographed are actually real, the photograph you see behind me, which is also the cover of my, book that was real, that I had to get up at, actually, I didn't go to bed that night, but I climbed to the top of that mountain at four in the morning and photographed that sunrise, 14, 000 feet, right? And I've climbed over 250 mountains in Colorado, and I've never seen light like that since, and I'll probably never see it again in my life. And that makes me excited. When I see that photograph, it takes me right back to that experience, right? And that's what I want to convey through my work. I don't want to convey a fantastical kind of make believe fairytale land through my work. I want my work to represent something that me, the photographer, actually witnessed and photographed. And maybe I'm hard headed, whatever, but that's my approach to photography. So anyway, relating to the competition, we found by, analyzing Facebook comments and Facebook posts, how frustrated they were by the fact that those types of images continually win. And we're like, okay, so it sounds like there's a lot of people out there that are like us who wish there was a different platform on a more even playing field where they could get their images showcased to the world. And when you look at the image. You know that that was actually something that that photographer witnessed and captured and it wasn't created in software. And for me, other people, maybe not, but for me, when I look at a landscape photograph and I know that it is actually something that that photographer witnessed, it just makes it that much more special because there was more work that went into creating it. The amount of effort and energy that went into it is probably greater. It required a lot more field craft to get it correct. You know, there's a lot more variables that go into capturing that image. And so we were like, well, let's create this competition and see what happens. So we created the competition and we had over, 15, 000 images submitted in our first year from like 60 countries and yeah, it was huge. And then one of our goals, you know, our goal isn't to make money. in fact, I don't recommend creating a competition if you want to make money, especially the way we're doing it. But, um, then the reason I say that is because we're creating these, books and these aren't just like, Slap together books on like, you know, Bay photo or something like that. These are linen covers with embossed titles and texts and very high quality paper and high production value.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:01:40

Look at that moon right there. Holy cow.

Matt Payne: 2:01:42

I mean, the quality of the photography that's been submitted to our competition is. Ridiculous. If you win any award in the competition, or if one of your photographs is featured in the book, we give you a copy of the book for free. That's just our way of saying, man, we want to celebrate your accomplishments. Congratulations. and what we found through the competition is that these photographers who have kind of they're not noticed on social media as much. They're now starting to get attention. They're now starting to get fans. People are starting to find them as, artists. And, and it's been exciting to be able to elevate the work of these photographers. So it's been an awesome project. You know, our goal is to push photography, landscape photography, push it back in that direction that, was so celebrated by, the founding members of. Group F64, which is like Ansel Adams and, Brett Weston and, all of those photographers who kind of came out of that pictorial movement and they wanted photographs to actually represent scenes that they captured. Right. So that's what we're trying to do with it.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:02:50

What a cool idea to see. a need and a desire for something and then go after it and then see the response being so amazing. I am so happy for you, for doing this because this is something that is needed with all of this new software and with AI like this becomes a big question of what is a photograph when something looks Like a photograph and I've had Shane Bulkowich on the show before talking about, obviously AI's role in photography and how we need to, or we need to come up with a very clear classification on what is a photograph and what is, just digital art. If capturing a photo that is like genuine and pure and like this really happened is so important, this may be just a personal question. Why not? Shoot film.

Matt Payne: 2:03:36

It's funny because I, I'm always telling film photographers, why not shoot digital? Uh, cause to me, film has a lot of limitations, not in terms of what you can and can't do with it in post, but just, you know, the mechanical limitations in terms of cost. When I do a fall color trip for 14 days, I come home with, I don't know, two, three, 4, 000 raw files, right? I mean, there's no, no way I could afford that as a film photographer. That's a lot of film.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:04:06

Yeah. That's a lot of film.

Matt Payne: 2:04:07

Yeah. So for me, it's more of a practical thing. And then also, overcoming some of the limitations of film for a lot of the subjects that I like to capture would be very difficult. You know, like I photograph a lot of trees. If you're using F64 or F32 on a large format, 8 by 10 film camera, good luck getting any of those, leaves in focus, right? Like they're, they're going to be blown in the wind.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:04:33

Yeah, exactly. I know.

Matt Payne: 2:04:35

So, but to your point, I mean, I think film is kind of an interesting medium and actually we have several people enter the competition with just film images. In our first year, the photograph of the year was a film photograph. Um, it is. Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:04:52

This has been something that I've been exploring lately is that it's interesting cause I had started in photography by shooting on film, not a lot, but I was very familiar with the process. And then once digital came along, it's so enticing, you're able to shoot more as much as you want, you know, all those things. You don't have to carry a hundred rolls of film, but now I've been giving it a lot of thought as far as with AI and with all these software tools. Yeah. I think that there's going to be, there's, at least for me, there's a feeling of knowing that something is real, um, I don't do a lot of manipulations in my photos, and my style of photography could 100 percent lend itself, like, it could work on film, and I have to ask myself that question, how important is real? Me and what, I guess what is real, you know, is real. Something that you can hold. Because if that's the case, no digital image is real. So that can't be the case. So it's, it's coming up with those definitions.

Matt Payne: 2:05:45

I mean, it's funny because I think it's a misconception to say that photographs. are real. We don't see the world at F2, right? Or shutter speed, like we don't see the world in 30 second exposures and, you know, things like that, that, it detracts from reality. And then what we decide to put inside of those four frames, and maybe what's outside of that frame, you know, that completely changes What's real, you could photograph a beautiful scene right next to it as a trash dump, you know I mean, yeah, so I think it's it's not useful to say that a photograph is real I think what's more useful from my perspective is to say that a photograph is reasonably represent an experience or a moment, that actually existed. I think that's a little bit more, I mean, maybe that sounds nuanced. I don't know, but it's funny because back in 2013, 2014, 2015, I did a lot of composites. I created tons and tons and tons of really bad night photography composites and I got really well known for, making those images and what I found for myself, looking back, but also at the time, I never really felt much pride in those photographs, you know, I like, okay, yes, they became popular and actually got into magazines and newspapers and all kinds of stuff with those images. But I look back at those photos and I'm just like, that, It's kind of fake, it's kind of manufactured. It's like, I didn't actually experience any of those moments. And so like, for me, it, it just rings hollow at that point for me. And so what I realized is having those authentic moments or experiences be. represented through my images was important to me, is important not only for the way I felt about my own photographs, but also important for the, how I talk about my photographs with other people and how other people experience them. I get into arguments all the time. with people about this particular subject, and I just recently got into a discussion with someone on discord about it. He's a commercial photographer, does a lot of product shoots for fast food companies, things like that. And he's like, yeah, like I manipulate photographs of burgers and tacos and stuff like that all the time. And I'm like, doesn't that make you feel a little bit disingenuous? Like you're purposely making the photograph, making the, that subject look better than it actually was for the purpose of monetization. And I think that's where I keep coming back to this problem in landscape photography is that I think motive. Matters in terms of what you do with your photographs, I think if you're doing photo montage or creating elaborate composites to convey an artistic idea, and that artistic idea is conveyed through an artist statement, or maybe it's part of a project and that project has a description and, you know, maybe you've got like really huge moons and like funky color landscapes that don't exist, but your project, you mean you're telling the viewer Why you did that, right? it was for a specific artistic purpose, whereas I think 95 percent of the images we see nowadays that have had significant manipulation done to them. It's done purely out of an aesthetic, desire to be seen and to become popular. And that's it. And maybe I'm wrong, but I. I think that's why people do it. or, or there are people like you, like you said, okay, it's a boring sky. I'm photographing a wedding. Maybe someone's on an assignment for a company to photograph a hotel. They want to make that photo look better for the magazine or the hotel company. Okay. I could see that, use case, but if you're saying I'm creating art and you're creating a landscape photograph, And you're presenting it to the world as a landscape photograph. I think we can all agree that everyone kind of assumes when you look at a landscape photograph that it is something that photographer actually saw and witnessed. Yes. And so they're, kind of playing on that, that naive viewpoint of the viewer that that experience actually happened. and they're playing into that and they're, you know, gaining momentum and popularity based on people believing in something that isn't actually something that photographer witnessed. And the way I try to tackle that is trying to encourage people to be more honest in their captioning. So, so many times I see photographs on Instagram or on people's websites that I know have been manipulated. And they use really flowery language about how incredible the experience was and, they're playing into this idea that the viewer is going to be connect to that image because it's something that photographer actually witnessed. They're intentionally playing into that vulnerability that we all have. Yeah. When it's not. When it's not. And I find that to be incredibly disingenuous and unethical is probably the word I would use. And it's, it's rampant. It's. Everywhere. Sure. And people are, people are doing it with AI now, too, you know? People are using AI, they're using Midjourney, they're creating these images, and They don't exist. They don't exist, and then they're putting them out there into the world without any caption whatsoever. And what's ironic is a lot of these people are, before AI, they were known as nature and landscape photographers, and so their audience that they've developed over the years assumes that it's a photograph, and it's not, but they don't say it's not, and again, I just, I personally find that approach to just be You know, it's deceitful.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:11:26

Yeah. I'm right there with ya. I'm right there with ya. Because it's, I think we're just in a very tough spot right now, with the world of imagery. I think, um, because, you know, painters discredited photography for a long time. But it's not that it doesn't have any value, it's just a different thing. And I think that we need to figure out, like, what is that different thing? And we all have to be okay with it. And that's just going to take a lot of time. Because there's plenty of photos that I've seen that are composites that are like, Whoa, that is super cool. I know that that's not cool. You know, and like when you watch, I don't know, Avatar, you know, that, we never went to this, Pandora planet or whatever. But you still say to yourself, like, that was cool. And you allow yourself to be in that for a moment, knowing that it's not cool. But then you watch a, like a documentary And you're like, that was amazing on an entirely different level. And I think once we figure out how we're going to classify these two things, it's going to be easier, but I'm right there with you. The deceitfulness is bad.

Matt Payne: 2:12:21

Have you ever heard of the term splitters and lumpers? No, I

Raymond Hatfield: 2:12:25

haven't. Tell me about it.

Matt Payne: 2:12:26

Yeah. So I think where you stand on this particular subject. greatly depends on whether or not you are a splitter or a lumper. And this actually dates back to like the scientific classification days, like Charles Darwin and stuff where, you know, they're like, okay, this is a bird. Okay, no, it's a subspecies of bird and like in that scientific community, you had people are like, Oh no, it's just, they're all, they're all kind of the same, you know, they're lumping everything together. And I think there's a lot of people who do photo montage and composites and digital art who, present their work as landscape images. They see, they, they all, it's, it's a photo, it's all a photograph. it's artwork. It's an image who cares if you differentiate it. And then there's people like me. I'm very much a splitter because I don't necessarily associate myself with that particular approach to creating artwork. and I don't see what we're doing as being remotely the same,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:13:23

right.

Matt Payne: 2:13:24

And I'm not saying I'm better. I'm just saying it's different, and I think having a way of recognizing that those differences is important to me. Of course, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:13:34

I'm gonna have to look more into that. That is a very interesting, concept, but it absolutely makes sense. But before we start an entirely Different podcast on the ethics of AI and manipulation and things like that. we are at the end of our time here, Matt. So I'm going to have to have a back on and we're going to chat about this again, because this is obviously a very, very important topic, but for today. listeners are thinking to themselves, I want to see more of Matt's photos, knowing that it's real stuff. So where can we find you online? And also, don't forget to mention your podcast.

Matt Payne: 2:14:04

Yeah, cool. So, Instagram, Facebook, all those fun places, Matt Payne photo, it's P A Y N E. My podcast, if you like the kind of conversations that we just had, I have similar conversations with photographers relating more specifically to nature and landscape photography, but we know we cover other things like business and marketing and website design and you know, all things photography, but it is more niche to landscape and nature, but it's called F stop, collaborate and listen.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:14:34

All right, lastly, today is my interview with a longtime, well, he's multifaceted, but in this interview, street photographer, Ave Pildes, who is going to teach you the art of capturing dynamic moments and genuine emotions with natural light and how to use that light to enhance the storytelling aspect of your image. You're going to learn how to use specific locations to deeply explore compositional themes, like focusing on people with flags on the 4th of July at a local landmark, so that you can start to create cohesive series of images. Abe is also going to share with you his technique for balancing foreground and background elements to create visually compelling images. Which make each frame more layered in meaning and just visually highly engaging. Ave last time you were on the podcast, I think my first question for you was, when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life? And now that you've been on the podcast, I now have to come up with another question. So was thinking about this and I want you for a moment to kind of, close your eyes, mentally close your eyes, whatever you need to do. And because you have an extensive photo collection, an archive of images, I want you to think. About them. I want to know what the first image that pops into your head, whether it stands out just because you love it, or for any other reason, I want you to have an image in your head that you can think of from your archive. do you have an image in your head?

Ave Pildas: 2:16:00

I do.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:16:01

Describe that photo for me.

Ave Pildas: 2:16:02

it's a picture of my cat, a rat. and I called it, Cat and Mouse, I think, for Gunther Graus from his book. But, I had a breakfast room. And the cat, whenever the cat, caught anything, he would bring it into the breakfast room. the room was surrounded by windows on three sides, and it had one door to get into this breakfast room. So the cat would bring things in, and he could guard the door. one day he brought in a rat. and, he just played with it and I sat there and took pictures and I got a really, uh, terrific picture. And it's a picture where he has the rat in the corner. So there's an upward triangle to that. And so the triangle is in the middle and the rat is on one side and the cat is on the other. So And it's just charged with energy because everybody knows what's going to happen, but nothing is going on. And the rat's tail is, strung out straight and the cat's tail is strung out straight. So, there's a force going on. And, I have that is also a business card and I see it all the time. And, When I hand it out to people, they just say, Oh, that's wonderful. I love cats. And I think it takes them a while to see what is really going on. But, it's just a very charged picture.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:17:33

Did you. Did you know how, visually impactful the image would be as you were taking it, or did it develop over time?

Ave Pildas: 2:17:40

No, I, I didn't know immediately, because I took probably, maybe at that time I was shooting film, maybe, I, took 10 or 12 pictures, and then I looked at them. And, some of the pictures the cat was throwing the rat up in the air, and, sometimes a chair leg got into the picture, so I just, knew once I looked at the pictures that this picture was, dynamic, just because, if you hang on, I can get the card and show you the little picture. Sure, of course. It's just in, just, just in back of me, I have to take the headphones off for a second.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:18:13

Yeah, of course, of course. there we go. Sure enough. Oh, yeah, there's the triangle. We have the cat on the right there looking, to the left and it looks like the rat's trying to get away. That image tells a story for sure. I want to know because you are one of the people who when I think of somebody who makes interesting images. And when I think about your body of work, it's easy to think of photo projects, the photo projects that you do. And maybe it's the way that you categorize them. Maybe it's the way that you, view the world. I'm not sure. But when you have an image like this, when you have this image that on its own. stands there. It's powerful. It's strong. We understand the story. Do you think to yourself, I need to look for more images like this to start building together? Or do you start thinking of your other photos to categorize it with them?

Ave Pildas: 2:19:03

when I go out to take pictures, sometimes I think, well, I need to get picture. I'm going to a specific place. I'm going to take some pictures, but. I get sidetracked a lot because I see a picture that would fit into another series. and that doesn't mean that, my, antenna are always up because I miss a lot of pictures. they register in my brain, but I don't take the picture. for some reason, I just get involved in what's going on or looking, watching, and then, might take, some pictures, and then afterwards, I think, oh, gee, how come I didn't take this picture? I think that, I'm all over the place. You know, and, uh, I know it, might not seem that way to other people, but, I try to concentrate and sometimes I do a better job than others, but, mostly I, just, can feel what's going on and I get pulled over and I, take a picture of something other than what I set out to take a picture. And as far as the categories go, I think that, the picture of the cat cat and mouse here, I call it, it's a rat, but it, I call it a mouse, and, the picture of the cat and the mouse was the beginning of me taking, pictures of animals. And, not always pets, just how society, has a relationship with animals and that particular series, which is probably this started in 77. It's more than 40 years old, deals with the, people wearing fur, butcher shops that have rabbits hanging in the window because people eat rabbits, sometimes dinosaurs, concrete dinosaurs that are all over the country and, advertisements using animals and, Sometimes it's pets, but sometimes it's pictures. I go to zoos all the time. I'm on the lookout for animal pictures all the time. But I might go out to, to do something else and see an animal picture. And then I get sidetracked.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:21:08

it seems like, Today, we kind of live in this world where, at least for photographers, they're told to niche down so much, right? Whether it be, you can't just be a wedding photographer. You have to be a wedding photographer for couples, for working professionals who want an elopement on a mountaintop, right? so hyper specific. This idea, this photo project of yours, Animals, It seems so big. Where do you draw the line between taking a photo of every single animal and, I don't know, what it is that you have? that balance?

Ave Pildas: 2:21:41

Well, I've always wanted to do book about the animal antics. I have my favorites, but I haven't, nobody has been that interested in that, but I haven't also, I haven't promoted that or looked for somebody to do that or teamed up with or something, but if somebody was interested, then I would start the editing process. And the editing process, takes quite a, a time. It doesn't just happen, right away. you know, which picture faces the other picture? Or, is there one picture per page? Is there a blank page someplace? And, just the editing process for a project that is going to come to fruition might take a year. So I, I haven't yet dealt

Raymond Hatfield: 2:22:29

with the animal antics. So when you say antics, when you see, are you looking for some sort of action or emotion from these animals? is that what's, triggering you to want to photograph this? Or, on the opposite side of the spectrum, do you go out and shoot animals? Everything and then build the projects after the fact, after you've captured animals and all these different situations, you realize, oh, wow, this one's doing that. Oh, and so is this one. And so is this one. This could be its own project.

Ave Pildas: 2:23:01

Well, it's taken a lot of years to get a good body work on number of animal pictures. And then when I look at somebody else's picture of an animal or a strange picture of maybe a fake animal or something, or maybe it's a tiger attack in India or something, then I say, Oh, wow, I wish I would have been there. I wish I could have taken that picture. That doesn't last long. it's just, I think, well, maybe that could have fit into my project, but you know, in, the word antics is only a working title because, if we talk about, the Hollywood Boulevard pictures, my working title was, Hollywood Boulevard in the seventies. And, when I started working with a, publisher, I had to go through and think about what would be a good title for the book. and then I realized, well, even though my focus was on the people on Hollywood Boulevard, there were stars in the picture all the time because they're in the sidewalk. So trying to come up with titles, I came up with star struck and that stuck and the publisher liked it. So the original title. Got thrown out, and that became a title, and it's much better. So I have no idea what the animal pictures will become. Or if they ever will become, because something else might happen before that. In fact, I know some things that are gonna happen before that, so.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:24:30

So for you, being able to look back at your archive of images is, that sounds like one of the most important, tools for you, to be able to go back and start to build these projects kind of after the capture.

Ave Pildas: 2:24:42

Yes, and, more recently, I've been, weekly putting up a little, not a podcast, but a little thing on social media called, Every Photo Has a Story.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:24:53

I've seen these. They're great, by the way. Very entertaining.

Ave Pildas: 2:24:56

Those are all taken from, looking through my archives and saying, Oh, here I can take four pictures from this group of pictures and talk about them. Sometimes I talk about the composition, sometimes I talk about, just the photograph itself or what I was feeling, or, sometimes I talk about something that doesn't have to do with the photograph and just present the photograph. and that way I also keep track of what I've done in the past. So then that's fresh in my head for a week or something, and then I I remember taking a picture, 40 years ago and I don't have it in the archive yet. And then I have to go into the cave and the cave is where I keep the cave is where I keep all the negative. And then I have to leaf through those by the year until I find. photo that fits into that category. And while I'm doing that, I might find another photo that fits into another category that I, I rejected when I first took the photo because it didn't satisfy the constraints that I set up on that particular day, which was 40 years ago or 30 years ago. I forgotten what the constraints were. I don't remember what I was trying to do. But I have the photo and I'm not encumbered by what I was supposed to do. I can just look at the picture now with a fresh eye and say, Oh, this is a pretty good picture or no, this is, why did I choose this picture? It's terrible.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:26:30

You know,

Ave Pildas: 2:26:31

so I have a fresh, look at that. And I also do the same now if I go through the pictures that I have digitally, or I go through the Lightroom pictures, and I rejected pictures or I passed them by, and then I look through, like a folder on Lightroom and I see, wow, this is, look at this picture. How come I didn't notice it before? So I think, revisiting your own pictures is a very special thing. and you have to just be open. You have to be more open to that than you are when you're taking the picture.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:27:06

So after, years of building this archive, what tips do you have? for us to start building it, as we look forward, because I know that a lot of photographers who are new to photography, you've been photographing longer than I've been alive, you know? So, in, in that time that you've been shooting, what have you done with your archive now or back then, to ensure that today, if you wanted to go back through and look, you'd be able to find that there's some sort of organizational system. How can we start to build it ourselves?

Ave Pildas: 2:27:32

Well, I can tell you to do some things that I haven't done. I wasn't really keeping track of so I think in, for instance, in Lightroom, you can put down your categories and then it'll go across the board. And if you say, if you then put in birds or something, all of the bird pictures will come up. I didn't do that. So I was keeping not in film, but when I was started shooting digitally. There was a file number. So I started keeping track of the file number, but, when I was shooting film, I kept track by year, so I had the year, but I wasn't specific enough. I think you, if you want to have a good archive, you have to be really specific and that takes a lot of time. So once you have the photograph, then you then identifying the photograph or putting in key words or. You have to be very meticulous about that. I wasn't very meticulous. So I'm relying on my memory a lot about, Oh, I, remember taking this picture and then I have to go hunt it up. And sometimes I'm successful and sometimes I'm not, but keeping track from the beginning. It is probably a must. You just have to know that it's going to eat up some of your time.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:28:48

Oh, man. Yeah, because once again, there's a balance between all of the context and none of the context, right? I mean, with the photo of the cat and the mouse there, I mean, is it black cat? Is it triangle composition? Is it white walls? Is it high key? Is it contrast? you know what I mean? Like how many tags go into it? And I know for me, that seems very overwhelming and I would just abandon the whole thing. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. What do you think about, like I know within Lightroom, not Lightroom Classic, but the other version, the mobile first version, I think it uses AI to detect what's in the image and then you can search and it should pull things up. Like I know that I've searched beach before and it showed me like all the pictures of the beach. Have you tried any of this?

Ave Pildas: 2:29:35

I have and I don't like it.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:29:37

Oh, why is

Ave Pildas: 2:29:38

that?

Raymond Hatfield: 2:29:39

Because it requires too much time. Time as far as importing them into Lightroom or searching?

Ave Pildas: 2:29:45

Searching. I do put names on the file. So if I say, Santa Monica, then I can look through all of the, Santa Monica pictures. And within that, I've probably already pulled out pictures, that fit into different categories. And then I have, within those categories, it might be an animal in Santa Monica, or it could be a person, or it could be a homeless person, or it could be busker, or you know, or it could be, an acrobat. So, within that, I have a file that might say acrobat, or street people, or, so after I find, Santa Monica. I've taken something from Santa Monica and put it into a different folder, the same if I, go to another country, I might say, okay, here's a picture of a clock. So that might go in under the category in the folder called time. So, connected to my other computer and there's backups on this computer. the other computer I think I have, six drives connected to. so each of those drives, there's one drive for jazz, one drive for maybe, the animal things, maybe another drive for just archives. Another drive for new pictures that I'm taking, like the started, if I get a new drive, then that gets labeled, 2023. And, I thought about, getting these super drives or, and, and, uh, Oh,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:31:15

and NA, uh, NAS and

Ave Pildas: 2:31:17

NAS, but it's very expensive to start all over again,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:31:21

I'm going to send you some resources after this. I don't think that it's as expensive as you think. Oh, okay. And I'd be happy to help you out. because I, I just recently made the switch as well, so I'd love to share some thoughts. But when it comes to, the categorization then, as we're talking about here of your archive, what for you are like the main themes? You said that it's categorized by year, of course, and then location. tell me how you break down a photo. As far as, uh, keeping it organized.

Ave Pildas: 2:31:48

Yeah, if I would say, Paris. Taking pictures in Paris. so that's the main category, Paris. And then within Paris, there's another folder called, Metro. Or there's another photograph called Museums. There's another folder. So it's the main folder and then there are sub, sub

Raymond Hatfield: 2:32:05

folders. And then, so to build a project after the fact, I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that Yeah, I

Ave Pildas: 2:32:11

build the project after the fact. I don't know that, very often I don't know that there's a project.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:32:17

Yeah. There

Ave Pildas: 2:32:17

isn't any project.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:32:19

Yeah.

Ave Pildas: 2:32:19

And then I, find out that I've gravitated towards a certain You know, I go to some place and I say, Oh, wow, look at all these statues. Or if I'm using Paris, the moneymaker in Paris is the Eiffel tower. I didn't know that before I got to Paris. I mean, I knew that there was an Eiffel tower and I'd been to Paris before. And then I started seeing, started really paying attention to, because everywhere I went in Paris. I could see the Eiffel tower everywhere. So I started taking pictures of the Eiffel tower, like everybody else does, but with a little bit different slant. It was always from where I was. if it was out the window of a museum at night, then there would be part of the museum in the picture and then the Eiffel Tower. I had no idea that I was going to be taking pictures of the Eiffel Tower. so now I have A small collection of Eiffel Tower pictures. How many good ones are there? At the moment, there might be three or four. maybe out of 20 or 25. Will I ever do anything with them? I have no idea. If somebody asks me about, what did you do in Paris or something like that, I might send them that picture. if somebody asks me, do you have any pictures of the Eiffel Tower, I would send them the one that I like the best. But I don't know when I take a picture, whether it's going to really blow up or become something larger.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:33:55

Well, before, thinking about will this develop into something, which is interesting, because I always feel like that's the first question that I ask myself. And if the answer is, I have no idea, then I typically just don't do it. Which, is a habit that I need to break. So if you want to go back and build this into a project, just so that I can get some clarification, I know that this isn't an episode all about organization and whatnot, but just so that I can get a better picture, you would have to go back and search through all of your folders of images to see if you can find anything else that fits the category. Is that right?

Ave Pildas: 2:34:28

yes. Yeah, that's the short answer. But, that might come up when I'm searching for something else. And then I see, oh, unconsciously I had this picture before I started thinking about it as a series. I might have taken that picture just because I was interested, but it didn't, the light didn't go off. it wasn't a category, in

Raymond Hatfield: 2:34:52

the past. That makes sense. So, as I said, it's a new year, there's a lot of people who, myself included, would like to try more photo projects. And as somebody who's very productive at photo projects, I want to learn from you, right? somebody who puts together a lot of photo projects, you are somebody who, when I look at your work, I can see the progression. I can see the vastness in the projects that you create. And seemingly they can kind of be all over the board. So I want to ask this may be a strange question, but when I think about architecture of places of worship, people sitting on a bench, waiting for a bus, theater box offices, humans interacting with animals, can you In one word, tie all these images together. What brings these images together?

Ave Pildas: 2:35:45

I'm curious. That's it. I think we started, today saying that I'm all over the place. then you talked about photographers who have a speciality. they're only taking pictures of weddings. They're only taking pictures of architecture. That would just bore the hell out of me, that's just not not where I know I Okay, so

Raymond Hatfield: 2:36:08

how do you go deeper into a project if you're looking at multiple different projects kind of all the time? How do you go deeper into something?

Ave Pildas: 2:36:15

If there's a particular, for instance, I've been shooting now for a year on the Santa Monica pier. I can go there, park my car, and then I go and I spend 90 minutes, maybe at the max two hours, on the Santa Monica pier taking pictures. And sometimes like I have too many pictures of people, trying to, sell something. so I forced myself to look at other things. But, it's gonna take me another year of taking pictures there to get a body of work. So I go there knowing that there's something I'm going to see something I might get one picture in that two hours, one good picture, I'll know when I start editing, which one are the good pictures and which ones aren't. I have yet to go there and shoot pictures at night. I haven't shot pictures in the fog there. I have shot pictures underneath the pier. this past 4th of July, I took a flag to the beach that's on either side of the Santa Monica Pier and asked people to hold up the flag, and ask them what they thought about the 4th of July. So that was kind of a sub. Category because every 4th of July I take pictures of people with flags or a hang a flag up or something like that and get people to post and now I have some pictures about Santa Monica pier on the 4th of July. some of the categories overlap, that's just the sub category of the Santa Monica pier.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:37:47

of course,

Ave Pildas: 2:37:47

and. At the end of the two years, there could be no one else interested in those pictures, but me.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:37:54

Does that matter to

Ave Pildas: 2:37:54

you? No.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:37:55

Why is that? I

Ave Pildas: 2:37:56

mean, I wish that, everybody would say, Wow, look at this, look at this. But, that's not why I'm taking the picture. Although I have to tell you that, more recently I've been really aware of, my legacy and that only came about because I listened to podcast, each Sunday morning, Hindus talking about, and they don't believe in legacy. And I said, well, that doesn't work for me. Because, my pictures are going to be here long after I'm gone, and that's, what I want to have happen. Then I started really thinking about legacy and, feel very good that my pictures are going to be here just like photographers who I have looked at in the past who are long gone, dead. And, their photos are living, and I know something about those photographers looking at their pictures.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:38:49

So how are you managing that? How are you managing your future legacy of your images?

Ave Pildas: 2:38:55

Well, I'm working on the archives, certainly, and those will go to some institution.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:39:02

What do you mean by that? Just so that I can, be clear. you're taking all of your images and you're sending them to somebody?

Ave Pildas: 2:39:08

not all of the images, but the ones that I think are good, I will find somebody to take care of those. Or I will give them to an institution. I don't know whether it'll be a, if I can get a museum to take them or somebody else just manage them afterwards. That isn't clear to me yet. But the other thing is, is that I'm very involved in books. It's another way to get the photographs out there. A broader way to get the photographs out than to get a single image out. Or to have a gallery selling, one image that somebody is going to hang on their wall. I'm not as interested in that, as I once was. I think that it doesn't happen very often, certainly very difficult to make a living that way. So I don't think of it in those terms. If by chance or luck or something that, 20 years from now, when I'm long gone, there's a newsflash or something that says this picture of Abe Pildes sold for 20, 000 at auction, I would be happy. I won't benefit financially from it, but I'll be happy that because of that newsflash, a lot of people will see that image. More people see the image

Raymond Hatfield: 2:40:25

so what is it that is most important to you about that? this may be just a dumb question. Why do you want more people to see your images

Ave Pildas: 2:40:34

just to? Let them see What I saw and what I thought was important It was important to me, or it was strange to me, or look what I saw, isn't this interesting? and then if somebody else sees that, they might find that it's interesting also. Maybe it opens up something else for them.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:40:53

So earlier when you said that the word curiosity is what ties all these different projects that you have together, when somebody looks at an AF Pildes photo, you want them to feel curious as well, is that it?

Ave Pildas: 2:41:06

Yes, I would like to, you know, maybe they missed it or maybe they're drawn to that picture because they recognize something in that picture that, they themselves gravitate towards. Maybe it's the person who never looked at that type of image or that situation before and said, Oh, how come I never recognized this before? How come I never saw this before? It's just, like asking me why I take, pictures, I think if I draw an analogy to. someone who's singing a song a musician, and there are all these new musicians who are long gone and they still have recordings and people listen to those recordings and they're pleased by them or they keep the beat or they dance to them Or it's joyful or and those dead musicians. They're just smiling. it's the same kind of feeling

Raymond Hatfield: 2:41:59

that's so wholesome that's so interesting to hear. I love it. thank you that was beautiful when it comes to creating images for you. I want to know what's more important Is it speed of execution or is it perfection?

Ave Pildas: 2:42:13

I think that when you do something, for a long time and you have a skill set, you don't think about the skill set so much when you're doing it. It's built in. yes. do I change my station point when I'm looking at something? I want to take a picture. Yes, I do. Do I try and find the best angle? Do I tilt the camera? do I compose? Yes, I do. I do if I'm having to work fast because I'm going to miss it and I miss a lot of pictures because I'm not quick enough. I don't think about all those skills that I've developed over the years when I start taking the pictures because they just kind of fall in place. And all I really have to do is recognize something that's going on and get my camera to see what I'm seeing and push the shutter. And, one of the things that I don't do is that I don't have my camera set on, multiple exposures. I didn't get in that habit. My habit was to always push the shutter. Always push the button down. That presents a problem sometimes because there's a little lag time. So when I was shooting film when I pushed the shutter down that's when I saw it. And lag times have gotten much better, much shorter. With each new development of digital camera, but there's still sometimes the lag time, because there's auto focus and, it's got to come into focus. And then, then it takes the picture with film, you know, like I could, know that at F8, And at this distance, all of this, everything from five to 10 feet was going to be in focus. So that, that isn't exactly now you can do manual focus, but manual focus on digital cameras is slower than autofocus.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:43:59

Yes.

Ave Pildas: 2:44:00

so. You have to overcome those technological things with digital cameras, but think the answer to the question was that things are built in, so I'm lucky. I think I've got the timing down better now than I used to, and it works. So I use all of those skills that I have to get the picture. And if I get the picture, I'm happy. If I don't get the picture, I get pissed off at myself, but there's another picture right around the corner, right to my left or right to my right. And then my focus is on that and I've forgotten about the one that I missed.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:44:39

You don't sit and dwell about the photos that you've missed in the past?

Ave Pildas: 2:44:43

maybe for a minute. Sometimes I kick myself in the butt for a second and then, no, there's just too many more pictures.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:44:50

Oh, yeah. that is a great outlook. I want to go back to books real quick because, we kind of briefly went over books and the power of books and then kind of being able to live on. But, Your projects sometimes have different mediums, right? Some of your projects are just on your website, some of them are published in books, but some of them, as you mentioned earlier as well, you're posting to social media and you're doing these kind of deep dives into an image, so how much do you need to know end result, the medium, that it's going to be while you're out shooting? Do you focus on that at all?

Ave Pildas: 2:45:21

No, I don't. Okay. You know, that's, kind of like saying, oh, take this picture because I know that other people are going to like it. I could never figure out what people are going to like and not, or dislike, or who's going to react to this. I can bring an analogy to this. If you try and satisfy somebody else, it's like a job. I I did that for years, taking pictures for other people as a commercial photographer. And, even though I used my talent to make good pictures for clients, it always felt to me like, they weren't my photographs, they were for somebody else. I think I said once before that I took all of that commercial, almost all of that commercial work and destroyed it so that I wouldn't have to, be responsible for it or take care of it.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:46:08

Wow.

Ave Pildas: 2:46:09

I'm really very lucky and blessed that I just am doing it for me. Do I think about, is it going to make me money? Not going to make me money.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:46:18

So then why books? Why books? Why not just post your photos on Instagram and that's it? what's the importance of books?

Ave Pildas: 2:46:23

Well, I do that, but I do know that books have a longer life. The motto for Deadbeat Club Press, who published the Starstruck, their motto is there is no money in books. And, Clint Woodside, and his wife, Alex, Who have that press. they're wonderful. They published a half a dozen books a year, maybe one more or maybe one less, but their books aren't really making them money. They're also coffee roasters. he has a business where he roasts coffee and he sells coffee to the coffee shops and to restaurants and things. And at the book fair that I went to, it was at the Geffen where there were. Booksellers from all over the world. He made more money because he had a booth there selling coffee. You know, he made more money selling coffee than he did selling books. It's just a love for books. He has a love for books. And I think that, there's another, uh, press that, has the same idea. It was very successful. And there's rally press and Chris Pickler. and both of these, guys do very quality work and they choose, photographers all different directions, but they produce a really good project. They produce good books, but, Chris has an olive oil, business, so he has olive trees. You know, I mean, this is the love of photography and the love of books. It's not the love of money. they're not doing it for money. I have the same attitude, and I feel, part of their family, and I'm happy to be a part of their family because we have the same kind of thought about, doing things out of love.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:48:05

Mm hmm. tell me the difference in feeling you get when you open up a book from a photographer versus a photographer. Heading to their Instagram and looking at their feed.

Ave Pildas: 2:48:13

Well, when I was really young, and you looked at photographs, you looked at an 8 by 10 photograph and you held it in your hand and you looked at the photograph. it wasn't the size of a billboard. there were no photographs in museums at that time. So it was very personal and books are very much like that. It's so personal. It's you in the book and the photograph and looking at that. and so you're at one with that. The difference, I think on social media, for instance, now I'm looking at you, but the rest of my screen is full up with notes and photos and things like that. And the other environment and it's just not as personal and it's moving and there's also maybe a time limit, so when people post things, they put it on a cycle. Okay. 2 seconds or 5 seconds or 30 seconds or something. So, at the end of that. While you're still looking at, well, what's happening in this corner, then that picture changes. So I'm not turning the page. I can go back, but it's probably, it could be my age or just what I'm used to, but it's not as personal. So the social media isn't as personal for me. Do I use social media? Yes, because it's a way To reach out. Do I ask people to go and visit my website? Yes, I do ask them to do that. Do I ask them to buy a book? I ask them to do that too. Am I successful at any of that? I don't keep track of the analytics. One of my studio, assistants does and she says, Oh, Abe, look at this. 800 people looked at this. It's not as good as the one that got a thousand looks, And I just say, what am I supposed to do with that information, and it doesn't stop me from putting the next thing up and I don't go and look at the one that got more looks or likes or whatever and try and replicate that because I think that that's again, chasing something because I don't know that, if I put up a picture of myself, you More people look at that than if I put up a picture a photograph of something that I shot.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:50:29

And I

Ave Pildas: 2:50:29

could never understand that.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:50:31

That is interesting. You know,

Ave Pildas: 2:50:32

I don't know why are people interested in a photograph of me as opposed to a picture, a photograph of something else.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:50:40

I don't know. I don't have an answer for that. Neither do I. But it doesn't change the way that you move forward with social media. No, Yeah, I know that we're coming to the, end of our time here, if you could look back at your career, if you could think about the photo projects that you have created, if you could think about, Maybe images that have made the most impact. If you could think about when you felt most fulfilled creatively, what advice would you give to somebody who is just getting started? Who, maybe they feel lost. They don't know what it is that they want to start shooting. They don't know what the subject matter is going to be, what the medium is going to be, if it's going to be successful, or even how to determine whether it's going to be successful. What would you say to those people?

Ave Pildas: 2:51:27

I would say that everybody gets something, everybody gets something that you're born with and, if you can identify what that is, whether it's, you're musically inclined or visually inclined, then I think that, once you identify that, then you have, then you can develop it. And that's what's going to make you happy. you just have to follow that. You don't have to try and be somebody else. You just have to recognize what you are and the gift that you've been given and you develop that and never give up. Never give up. That's it. Have you ever thought about giving up? No. Give up to what?

Raymond Hatfield: 2:52:04

Well, I guess in terms of, we had talked a little bit about the commercial photography and you didn't like it and moving on from that, know when to stop doing something that isn't aligned with yourself?

Ave Pildas: 2:52:16

I think that, in my case when I was doing commercial photography and I was younger, I could feed off of the stress. that's part of, your testosterone, you're just trying to. run it a hundred miles an hour all the time and you feed off of that and then eventually you get tired or you just said, Oh, I just can't stand another person telling me to do it this way. And that happened when I switched over from being a designer to a photographer, it's because was sick of people. Telling me clients telling me make the size of the type a lot larger. I don't like this color or something like that. or the worst was for them to changing something on the press. without me knowing or without telling me. And finally, I just said, it's much easier to be a photographer. Nobody is telling me to change the image. They're just saying, I like this one, or I don't like this one. And that's a little bit easier to deal with. And I don't equate like and dislike with good and bad because you can like something that is bad. I could forgive people easier for me to forgive people around a photograph than around a design. I would just say that, you just gotta eventually follow your heart, what makes you happy. If you get that early on, good for you. If it comes later, good for you. But, if you get that, you gotta run with it. what makes your day.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:53:49

I don't know how to end it any better than that. Ave, once again, you came on, you did a phenomenal job taking my less than fully formed questions and turning them into answers that I know listeners, are going to be able to have some major takeaways from. So thank you for that. Before I let you go, listeners are going to want to know, where can we see some of these photo projects that is talking about? Where's the best place to do that?

Ave Pildas: 2:54:11

I guess you can visit the website. You can always go to a local bookstore and ask for Starstruck. You can turn in, you can, join my, ever Wednesday Cost In Contact by, I think, Googling me or there should be a link that you can just, Send me to put your name and then you'll get a photo every Wednesday of whatever I'm thinking about on Tuesday night. and just, try and have as much fun with it as you can, I think YouTube really good place to find me. You know, YouTube, Ave Pildas.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:54:46

I really hope that you enjoyed this incredibly deep dive into the world of light and composition. I hope that you're walking away with a ton of new ideas and techniques to apply to your own photography. Chris Duncan's advice on lighting control and creating dimension to Aves, mastery of natural light in street photography. You've just heard from photographers who have mastered the art of using light and composition to tell truly incredible stories through their images. So whether it's the story of, you know, a beautiful family's milestone through a family portrait, or the story of Americans all across the country, it is now your turn to take what you have learned today and experiment with it. No matter if it's capturing dynamic street scenes, composing immersive landscapes, or using lighting to evoke emotions within portraits. Remember, that light and composition are your most powerful tools as a photographer. And no matter your camera, you can work on them, even if it's just a cell phone. So push the boundaries, and your images will only get stronger and more meaningful. That is it for today. Remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon!