520: Camera Settings Mega Episode: Unlock and Find Your Unique Style

In this episode of the podcast, we dive into the journeys and wisdom of professional photographers like Christopher Gilbert, Liza Roberts, Michael Freeman, Karen Williams, and Pablo Giori. You'll learn how to embrace creative surprises, the importance of personal projects, and how to cultivate a unique photographic style. Implementing these lessons will help you break out of technical constraints and inspire you to find your own voice in photography.

THE BIG IDEAS

• Embrace Continuous Learning and Practice: Success in photography comes from an ongoing commitment to learning and practicing your craft. There are no shortcuts, only growth through experience.
• Find Your Unique Style: Avoid being a copycat by honing a distinctive visual style. This not only sets your work apart but also attracts the right opportunities and clients for your portfolio.
• Experiment Fearlessly: Accept failure as a valuable part of the creative process. Use it as a space to try new techniques and discover what truly resonates with you.
• Build and Share Personal Projects: Personal projects are key to showcasing your vision and can open doors to new opportunities. They allow you to experiment and share your creative journey with the world.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

1. Create a Mood Board: Start by collecting images that inspire you. This will help you identify your visual preferences and guide your photography projects.
2. Schedule Practice Sessions: Dedicate regular time slots to shooting photos, experimenting with different techniques, and refining your skills.
3. Curate Your Portfolio: Select and organize your best work that reflects your unique style. Make sure your portfolio is specific and speaks to your target audience or clients.
4. Dive into Experimental Techniques: Try out new methods such as cyanotype or photo soup at home. Use these experiments to discover innovative ways to create images.
5. Join a Photography Community: Engage with local photo organizations or online photography groups. This will provide you with valuable critique, support, and networking opportunities to further your development.

RESOURCES:
Follow Christopher Gilbert on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/christopher.w.gilbert/
Visit Liza Roberts' Website - https://www.lizabetroberts.com/
Visit Michael Freeman's Website - http://www.michaelfreemanphoto.com/
Visit Karen Williams's Website - https://www.blackvisualqueen.com/
Visit Pablo Giori's Website - https://www.pablogiori.com/

Grab your free 52 Lightroom Presets at
http://freephotographypresets.com/

Build Your Dream Photography Business and Keep More of the Money You Earn with CloudSpot Studio.
And get my Wedding and Portrait Contract and Questionnaires, at no cost!
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Connect with the Beginner Photography Podcast!

• Join the free Beginner Photography Podcast Community at https://beginnerphotopod.com/group
• Send in your Photo Questions to get answered on the show - https://beginnerphotopod.com/qa
• Grab your free camera setting cheatsheet - https://perfectcamerasettings.com/

Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Transcript

Michael Freeman: 0:33

I absolutely insist that in any creative activity, whether it's writing, playing music, or photography, the whole idea of a set of rules is anathema, right? We're not doing engineering here. We're not building a bridge. So rules are designed to make something happen the same time every time. And in engineering, you really do need that. But that's the last thing you want in any creative activity.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:06

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield. And today we have a special mega episode where we are diving deep into the, one of the most exciting topics. For any photographer, cameras. Now, whether you're just starting out or, looking to refine your gear choices, today's episode, we're going to go beyond the basics and explore the magic that happens when you truly understand your camera so that you can use it to capture truly incredible images. But first, you know this, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by Cloudspot. Cloudspot has everything you need to build a thriving photography business. You can impress your clients, deliver a professional experience, and streamline your workflow all in one platform. So go ahead and grab your free forever account over at deliverphotos. com and only upgrade when you are ready. So, what makes this a mega episode? Well, for one, it is a long one because I've compiled several interviews from the past that focus specifically on cameras, settings, and learning to use the tool that is your camera. I've compiled some of the brightest minds in the photography world to share their unique insights, their experiences, and their technical expertise. Thanks. So over the course of this episode, you're going to hear from the professionals who have mastered different aspects of camera gear from sensor size to lens dynamics to creative decisions that transform how we capture the world. So I hope that by the end of today, you'll not only have a stronger understanding of the camera in your hands, but also gain new perspective on how to choose the right equipment that fits your style, you know, how to experiment with your settings for better results and how to stay creative no matter what. What gear you use, you're going to feel more confident, more inspired, and more capable to take the next great photo. And I want to be right there along with you on this journey. So why don't you come join me and the thousands of other photographers in the beginner photography podcast community. It is a free and I mean so supportive place to learn and grow as a photographer and again we would love to have you so just go ahead and join us now by heading over to beginner photopod dot com forward slash group. So first up today, I'm chatting with Fujifilm rep Christopher Gilbert, who shares quite a journey from switching from, full frame to APS C to medium format and everything in between. He's going to teach you the importance of aspect ratio over sensor size and the advantages of using smaller, lighter, and more portable cameras. You'll learn how to select a camera based on key features such as color science, sharpness, And discover the benefits of using cameras that offer tactile controls and immediate results similar to, the days of film photography. Christopher is also going to help you understand just more about lens and sensor dynamics, which will help you grasp the technical aspects of photography, sensor sizes, crop factors, and lens focal lengths as well, all to, help you in making the right creative decisions for you and your photography. I just simply want to know, when did you know that photography was first going to play an important role in your life.

Christopher Gilbert: 4:22

So I would have to say going back to college. So I went to school for graphic arts. This is 20 years ago. Photoshop was just getting started within the creative suite series. I think CS1 is really where my mindset was and trying to find a way to create design work with other people's photos. And knowing that I had to be reliant on stock photos. In order to do that and that pay barrier or that quality barrier, I got into the field, I got, a really small digital camera to start creating my own images for my own graphic design. And I found that, Hey, I didn't know what I was doing. Cause you know, it was just, Go, for it. But I found I could be so creative and it made my process much easier because I could say, this is my craft from start to finish in terms of design. And I wasn't reliant on other individuals. It was like kind of more self exploratory kind of thing. And so. I didn't really fall in love with anything until I got away from school and I purchased my first interchangeable lens camera because it was a point and shoot at the time. I mean, digital was first getting started and it was over a thousand dollars to even get invested in it. And there was one particular camera that came out first digital camera under a thousand dollars. I bought it and I literally took this camera. I was a park ranger at the time. And that's a story for another time. And it allowed me to explore so much and it filled my heart with so much joy because I could be creative and not know what I'm doing and have kind of a surprise every time I took an image because I didn't have any idea as far as the exposure triangle yet.

Raymond Hatfield: 6:05

I find that that's a very similar journey to many new photographers is that you know, they say that they're not good at painting, they're not good at drawing, but like this camera almost gives me instant access to some sort of creative release, right? Creative creation, rather. But as you said, you know, you were shooting on auto, so you'd go out and you'd take these photos when you got back to, you know, the computer and you'd load them up on there, did you think? Yes. Bangers got it. It's all figured out, or did you run into some trouble?

Christopher Gilbert: 6:32

I would love to say that I did and got a perfect pictures every single time. The first time I've tried it. And as we all know, that's just a, a falsity. you know, I made so many mistakes. Because I didn't know what I was doing. I was fine tuning controls, not knowing what I was changing. It was lightning and darkening. I'm like, cool, but what does this do to that? And I found that once I brought them back to the computer, when I had an LCD screen, cause this is the time the LCD screens were a fourth of a megapixel display. And it was soft or it was blurry, or potentially the focus was off just a little bit. And so I wouldn't say I was comfortable. getting what I wanted out of camera, uh, maybe like six or seven years into my journey, if I can be transparent,

Raymond Hatfield: 7:17

really,

Christopher Gilbert: 7:18

uh, and part of that was just to have forcing myself to learn these controls and, you know, obviously photography is, can be a technical field and it doesn't, but it doesn't have to be. And so I've found my niche creatively and that vision that I had creatively. You know, what I love to photograph was landscapes. What I love to exaggerate was small subjects and having the scene behind it be betrayed so that there was a kind of immersive sense of the image. And, uh, I found I didn't have that control. And so it forced me to learn step by step, by step, by step. And, over the course of the years, I became a little bit more proficient and a little bit more proficient, but, I'm still making a, maybe instead of a thousand mistakes, it's 900 mistakes instead of 900 mistakes at 700 mistakes. And I still do that every day. You know, I've been in the, field, as a professional educator for over 10 years now. And I make mistakes every day, and that's what I love about the process, because it's that self exploration and knowing what's right or not is a lot of feel because as a photographer, you're determining your output, and that can be only done through self exploratory.

Raymond Hatfield: 8:26

Yeah, of course. So when it came to trying to figure out how to start making less mistakes, was that getting into manual? You said that it was learning more about your settings. What did that process look like?

Christopher Gilbert: 8:36

you know, I kind of take the same process as I do as far as I teach my students now and I, some, some teachers say go to full manual right off the bat. And that's, good. And that works for some students. But I found that gradually progressing into each portion of the exposure triangle allowed me to have a lot firmer grasp on it. And so I started off with program. And so first started there, I now have exposure compensation that I could play with. I had some, aperture control. It's a point and shoot at this time. really just two settings and they're kind of almost simulated it felt like, and as I kind of figured out little by little, I'd go to aperture priority, concentrate on that. Okay. Now depth of field, can determine what I want in focus. And I'm not worried about shutter speed as of yet. And then finally work in shutter priority a little bit, stop and start action. And so it was a very much kind of a hill climb in order to get to manual, just because I was teaching myself. And I knew that if I had three exposure settings to worry about, knowing the intricacies of how they interact with one another, because it is huge, was harder for me to understand because I'm a visual learner. And so having to, I can change all these items in camera and they could, the image could be dark or light, but I didn't know what it was exactly doing. And those gradual steps allowed me to be more concrete in the foundation of the exposure triangle.

Raymond Hatfield: 10:42

Mm hmm. I know that you work for Fujifilm, so I want to know, like, how did that come about? Did you just love cameras and then this job became available? What was the in between for you?

Christopher Gilbert: 10:53

Ah, so, part of it was, so prior to me getting into the photographic field, I worked as a park ranger, was taking images out there. there was a natural disaster that happened, uh, almost gosh, maybe 10 years ago. the Waldo Canyon fire, basically burned down, a whole bunch of houses and kind of devastated the route in order for me to get to my job. And so I had to, look for something else. I just had family oriented. So I started at a camera store. And that's really was the foundation. And it intimidated me. And it was frightening because I had all this experience with my personal gear and no experience with any other brand. And so to answer your specific question, I. After six years at a camera store using multiple brands, I had to be an expert at everything, and that's just not feasible. No one can do that. And so I wanted to be a specialist and Fujifilm spoke to me both, tactilely interacting with their cameras. Everything was on the outside of it. Color science wise, the color fidelity. I mean, Fujifilm is now in its 90th year, 90th year, and who knows color better than someone who produces film? And so I found that because I love this so much, I was starting to peak interested. Maybe I could be something more, maybe I could be affiliated with the brand and, you know, being an ambassador often comes up first, but I found that incorporating my level of education with the blend of the camera system that I loved. And I'm going to be honest talking to one of the technical representatives that were a part of Fujifilm already, Louis Navarro, he's our representative in California and has been for a while, he asked me, what do you want to see in Fujifilm cameras? And let's be honest, what brand asks you that? And so it made me feel like I was part of something greater and my feedback was important and it may or may not have been, but that aligned with who I was photographically. And I was like, need to be a part of this. I love the education. I love the product. I love the ideology behind the brand. And I got lucky. There was an opening and I had to move across the U S in order to get here. So now I'm in Columbus, originating in Colorado. I moved from my job.

Raymond Hatfield: 13:07

So, I love that story. I love when there's a product or a service or just a company that like aligns so close to your values, and then for them to reciprocate, right. And say like, what do you want to see? Like that's important to us. Uh, it's so cool to hear. But I want to know, cause one thing, I've talked about my journey within Fuji since 2016 here on the podcast. And, I found that I love Fuji for a few reasons when I first got into it. First, it was the size, right? It was the physical controls. And then third, it was just fun to shoot. And like, I couldn't explain that with any other, camera, but when listeners would ask me, they'd be like, right, right, right. Like we get all those things, but. why? Why is it fun to shoot? All these questions, I really didn't have a very direct answer. And as you know, It's personal. It's personal. Right. Okay. Okay. Perfect. So, that leads me perfectly into this question because so many times, as you know, in the photography space, especially working at a camera store, there's always photographers, Trying to battle it out between like, what is best, of course, which is subjective, but like, you know, Canon photographers, Nikon photographers, Sony photographers, even, like, like Leica and Hasselblad photographers are always competing. I shot all the brands, I get it. Yes, yes. But all of those photographers, it seems today, still seem to carry around a Fuji camera with them. Right? And that is what is so interesting about Fuji. Like, so clearly to them, it is fun to shoot with as well. So, from your perspective, can you tell me, like, why is it that Fujifilm seems to have this appeal that other camera manufacturers just don't have? You know, from beginners to professionals. It's like, everybody seems to want one.

Christopher Gilbert: 14:45

So we can kind of incorporate the change in the industry from SLR to a mirrorless camera. And the first originating factor was size. That was the importance. SLRs are huge, bulky, they could take you out of the moment. And so when mirrorless was first getting developed, I had something that image quality was just as capable, maybe not as well refined. I mean, just like electric cars, when they first get developed, there's a lot of kinks as you discover what works and what doesn't work, but the soul of the camera was already there because, and I'm talking about Fujifilm directly here. Because of their history within large format, medium format, 35 millimeter that carried over. And that was what was lacking in the industry at the moment. What kind of camera that was digital, that gave me great image quality straight out of the gate, almost instant gratification that felt like I was still shooting film, but this just didn't exist. People are emulating it now. And so there's a lot of different camera companies that have a singular camera that offers those tactile controls. But when you look at the camera, because let's be honest, they're incredibly complex. I know there's 20, 30 menus, depending on what system that you're shooting. It's just the exposure triangle. I can look on the outside of the camera. Aperture's on the lens. ISO is going to be on a physical dial. Shutter speed is going to be on a dial exposure comps on a dial. And now instead of a thousand things to worry about, I have four. And let's be honest, As someone with ADHD, those controls, having that feedback, that's what made me feel like I was in the moment. And you're right, I should have said that earlier too. It made me want to shoot. And there are cameras that took great images, and we'll probably get into the conversation of full frame versus APS C, because I've navigated through those off and on. leaving full frame to go back to APS C or the 35 millimeter sensors, I should say. And it was something about that feel that I had where I was more confident I could bring more. So creatively being a smaller system at the time, I could have more looks because the lenses that were a part of that were less complex and a lot smaller because they didn't have to take account of the mirror box that was inside those cameras. So, you know, someone that was very, very technical and that's fun about this journey. We find that often beginners might not know a whole bunch. Then you get this bell curve where, you know, a whole bunch. And as you get more proficient, it starts going down what you want to know, what you need to know. And I felt that I could be more in the moment with it and the results that I got that immediate results or not having to be reliant on a computer in order to get my vision, Made me fall in love with it. And I know the photo that made me fall in love with Fujifilm, you know, I was in your Ray, Colorado, which is called little Switzerland, which is, you know, close, close to the million dollar highway, if I remember correctly. so I was there during the winter and I forget the Canon, it might be a box Canon, it might be that don't quote me on that, but I took one image on this gorge. looking downward. The sharpness was there. The color fidelity was there. And I took an image and I said, I was done right. 10 years prior to that, I was never done when I took the image. And so for me, that's what was my journey. And I'm going to be honest, a lot of Individuals journey that I encounter through that, six years directly with Fujifilm and the six years prior to that working in the camera stores, people getting acclimated with, the product. And when I was getting acclimated with the product as well.

Raymond Hatfield: 18:19

Yeah. Wow. That's so interesting. I feel like, photography can, be a difficult thing to talk about because, uh, as you know, there's so many different ways to go, right. and even with like editing. So if we were to just take like a hobbyist, say 20 years ago, shooting on film. A hobbyist would go out, they'd shoot, and then when they got home, they'd be done, right? Like, the hobby of photography was the photography. It wasn't the editing. It was the professionals who'd be in the dark room and, you know, obsessing over these, details to get perfect prints. But once we switched to digital, and once we, you know, were offered RAW, it almost seemed like, Now, everybody had to start editing their photos. We had to spend this time in Lightroom. We had to spend this time in Photoshop before that, to get a photo that, that we were happy with. So now we just extended this time in which our hobby took, and that, you know, for many people, myself included, like, I'm not a huge fan of the, the editing process. Like I can do it. I did it for a long time. I'm not a huge fan. So I, like you, love, love that feeling When you get it right in camera and you look at it and you say like, not only did I do that, right? That's that personal, fulfillment that you get, but then also now I don't have to spend the rest of my afternoon away from my family and kids to edit up these photos and make them look great. That's just a, unless you want to, unless you want to. Yeah, exactly. Unless you want

Christopher Gilbert: 19:39

to. And like, that is what is what I love about it. Same. That's what I love about this journey is because. You don't, if you want to be in the digital dark room and that's where you find your creativity is, discovered, it's not wrong. If you're in the field and that's where you find your creativity is discovered, it's not wrong. And so this was one of the sole creative outlooks that I felt that we could blend technicality and artistry. And not feel like one was more important than the other, but to kind of go off what you said earlier, you know, obviously we had to edit because digital cameras in the beginning were garbage, absolutely garbage. White balance is horrible resolution. It was okay. Uh, you know, 0. 2 megapixels. I remember I got a Hewlett Packard camera, 2. 1 megapixels, and it was 900. And now 900 gets you in an interchangeable lens system or possibly a really high end use camera. And now I found since all the camera companies make such good cameras these days, I can take the approach of film again. And that's why I fell in love with Fujifilm because I had to make those corrections with other brands in order to get what I wanted. And don't get me wrong. I'm a raw shooter and a JPEG shooter more JPEG than raw because of my job. Cause I don't want to show what the camera, I want to show what the camera can do and not what I can do with the experience. And it's kind of invalid. It's a misrepresentation when like, here's my image and raw, or I determined the color, I determined everything. And this is exactly what you're going to get straight out of camera. And so it forced a different mindset on me because I wanted to demonstrate all the opportunities that you could be within the moment. and get a great image. And yeah, that takes cost, filters, tripod, you know, as a landscape photographer, circular polarizer, graduated neutral density filters, that's what I still know and love. That slows me down in the craft. but the digital cameras, Even though I, that's really where I discovered my love for the craft. It took me up until eight megapixels where I felt I could actually use it and do it, deal with it on a professional level.

Raymond Hatfield: 21:46

I had never really thought about it that way, that essentially digital files were such garbage in the beginning that you really had to, tweak them, to make them look good. And now cameras are just so good that, we, or the technology is great that we can, uh, rely on them to still get a great image out of camera that makes a lot of sense. But you mentioned something there, which of course I really want to get into because one of the things that drew me to Fuji and of course other photographers as well, aside from just how fun it is to shoot with, is just how beautiful those files are, right? Can you walk me through like, Kind of a behind the scenes, like what is going on there? Because as you said, I mean, I know y'all have been making film for 90 years, but like, what is, can you explain what that magic sauce is? Like, how do you achieve such beautiful colors?

Christopher Gilbert: 22:28

Well, we never share secrets in this industry I'm kidding. But so it's a culmination of a lot of things. And again, I'm not directly speaking for Fujifilm on this. It's more my creative interpretation of it. But, But Looking at the digital cameras, all the film stock is still based in that. And it's meant to carry the essence of that film. So Velvia is going to be contrasting, saturated. Astia is going to be a little bit more subdued in terms of color change in totality is just a little bit different. It gives you a little, a subtle softness. And so. When the cameras were first coming out, X 100, then X Pro1 that was a way for film shooters that gravitated towards those film stocks to be able to shoot that again in a digital format. Cause they technically existed in a non mirrorless format. I mean, we had SLRs, S5 pro. I mean, those were great cameras that we worked with another brand, but it still had our color behind it because it was easily identifiable. A, uh, just because of the tone curve and contrast. Yeah. But also part of it is kind of the difference in sensor tech that we do. If I can get a little nerdy for a second.

Raymond Hatfield: 23:38

Yes, let's

Christopher Gilbert: 23:38

do it. And so, uh, your typical Bayer sensor, which is available on pretty much 99 percent of the brands out there. It's a two by two pixel pattern, right? And so every two pixels, your pattern is repeated. And so your noise is going to be more repetitious as a byproduct of that. And so you will get pattern noise as a byproduct of that. It'll be more digital feeling when you look at that photo, as you elevate those ISOs and so Fujifilm has done something different. I'm going to stick to the mirrorless setup. Cause that's what we do now. Not necessarily the SLR setup that was distinct in and of itself. but our pixel pattern is six by six. With more green dedicated pixels. And so this pattern is now repeated three times less often. The pixels feel more sporadic, and there is more pixels that are dedicated to green that capture a larger light spectrum. And so, this offers the opportunity through A, the processing of the color science, the information off the sensor itself, having this different pixel pattern, gives me more of an analog type feel, and it feels less digital and more organic as I raise those ISOs. And so because of that, we can talk about sharpness now, that doesn't need an aliasing filter anymore because of this, uh, pixel pattern. Aliasing filters, if I can kind of make a lame analogy, with computer games back in the day, if the resolution wasn't high enough, a circular line or a diagonal line would be kind of blocky, right? Almost look like a stair step. And so the images were technically blurred slightly as a byproduct of that to make it less obvious. And now that we're such high resolution 1624, we've got 102 megapixel camera. We don't need that ALC filter anymore. And so that without blurring that image to compensate for those pixels, I get a much sharper result and because of our. Basically our, pixel orientation, we more is less of an issue. You know, that false pattern that you get when there's not enough resolution with complex patterns, like trees, plaid, a hundred percent corduroy trees. Exactly.

Raymond Hatfield: 25:46

That was always a difficult thing at weddings. cause people like to get married outdoors, sometimes lots of trees and, sometimes. Family members have very questionable clothing choices and corduroy made it more than I thought that it would. So, yeah, that, that makes sense. And I guess, cause I've thought about this before when you think about, say an old. This is probably another lame analogy here, like an old like Super Nintendo game, there's no like round balls because the resolution is so small, like you can't get it round enough. So obviously, the more pixels that you introduce, the higher that it can resolve the image and it doesn't need to look all blocky. is that right? It's the same kind of concept? 100%. Okay. Wow.

Christopher Gilbert: 26:26

Same kind of idea because, uh, you know, when resolutions were first out there, I mean, they're what, eight megapixels. So as you enlarge that image, the, any sort of diagonal line or curve line, it would be more obvious that it was a pixel because a pixel is not a circle. It's a square, right? So how do I represent something that's circular? When I don't have enough of those blocks in order to do so. And I I'm sure we've probably seen examples before online as you introduce more and more blocks and zoom out just a little bit further, because you can, with the resolution to have that detail, it becomes less obvious of those jagged edges. And so it makes it easier to remove that filter and not have it as obvious. And so a sharper image as a by product of that. And one of the other things I fell in love with Fujifilm about being a lens manufacturer. So those coupled together, sensor tech, lens, technology, and, uh, yeah, having shooting other brands, I shot another brand for 15 years, moved to one brand that, basically not necessarily started mirrorless, but started the first full frame mirrorless. It just wasn't for me, right? I found that this type of setup and Fujifilm lenses were as good as they are, I no longer had to second guess myself and pick and choose the lens. I just picked up a focal length that I wanted. And so the first lens I bought, was the 16, 1. 4. And I have, I have, 3000, 4, 000 lenses before that. And this was a sub a thousand dollar lens. And I've got just as good, if not equal and sometimes better results from it. And I'm like, I'm sold, this takes so much out of my process. I don't have to worry about what lens to choose or what people have to tell me in order to get what I want. I just think of what I want. And it's there within the brand.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:13

And the, uh, the focus ring, uh, iconic that in the 23, two of my favorite tools of all time, which brings it so close to the whole, analog experience. So, uh, so much focus

Christopher Gilbert: 28:24

way to go. Yeah. 14, 16, the 23. Unfortunately, most of those have changed. Only the 16 and the 14 are left. And that's because the industry has changed so much since the beginning of digital. Sure.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:36

Sure. Well, let's go ahead and, talk more about the sensor tech, because you had brought up sensor tech a moment ago. And this was one of the things that I was scared about when I switched from, you know, shooting weddings on a 5d Mark three to going to Fuji. And that was going from full frame to, technically a smaller sensor. but I think. that whole idea, you know, is being forced upon us that we have to shoot full frame if we want quote unquote professional quality images. so can you talk a little bit more about sensor technology in terms of size, maybe not pixels rather, but size? Yeah. and how, is that still even a conversation that needs to be had?

Christopher Gilbert: 29:12

It happens every day. for the same reason. I mean, it's marketing. Go through the levels of digital process and the digital wars. What was the first thing that came first? Well, first thing came to mind was pixels, right? Then it was frame rate. Then it was video capability. And so for me, shot full frame, went the whole APS C route. I bought it, loved it, and I found that the tools within APS C in this particular, and I'm going to talk about Fujifilm just for a second, it made for an easier result because there's things that benefit my style of photography to a greater degree. Now, the qualifier is, do I need it? The answer is no, because the camera is the tool and an iPhone is a professional camera. point and shoots are a professional camera because a lot of the advertising that you see these days could be taken with either of those products. I was under the misconception because I was told that I needed that, that I gravitated towards that in the first place, because as you said, that was what defined professional cameras. Now us now, especially being in 2024, how do we digest our images?

Raymond Hatfield: 30:24

On our phone, right?

Christopher Gilbert: 30:25

Digitally. So unless it's for creative purposes, like defocusing the background, or I'm in scenarios where the dynamic range is so huge, I need that extra stop in the third difference, that might make me push towards 35mm sensor. But I, I don't encounter those images. I've got an image in front of me right now. That's 40 inches by 60 inches taken with a 24 megapixel APS-C camera into the sun and the dynamic range is great. And so I found that listening to other individuals tell me what I need, didn't allow me to see everything that was available. And having a camera that is smaller, what, because sensor size dictates lens size, right? And so having a camera that's smaller and having more lenses to choose from that were smaller, allowed me opportunities where I could be in scenarios for photos that I wouldn't get otherwise, because a, I'd be too scared. And B, it would be too heavy. And so APS C route, I went from 36 megapixels down to 16 and my images never look better. Wow. And so for my style, being a landscape photographer, I'm not trying to isolate the subject from the background very often. That's, portraits, you know, I'm trying to defocus the background to concentrate the, you know, the focus on the subject. And yes, larger sensors do that to a better degree. Yes, there's better noise performance. Obviously that's the physics. I mean, Fujifilm makes a medium format camera that is 102 megapixels. It's 60 percent larger than a 35 millimeter negative, and it creates great image quality. But there are limitations to everything. And so if I'm shooting 40 frames per second, it's probably not on a medium format camera. If I'm shooting sports or wildlife, having a smaller sensor works to your advantage. And so it's defining the tools within those sensor sizes and aligning with those tools that would made me gravitate towards a system or not. And so leaving full frame wasn't a question for me at all. I could have cared less because my style of shooting was at base ISO at the time was 200. And obviously there's crop factors associated with everything, right? You can't just pick and choose what the crop factor is associated with. You got to apply it towards your ISO, field of view, depth of field, not necessarily light gathering capability. And so trying to get everything in focus. It was easier on a smaller sensor. And so that's why cell phones have to use, you know, but computational, means in order to defocus the background, it's just physics. I never encountered any of the limitations or the perceived limitations of APS C. And so I'm not the type of person that says, yes, APS C is the same as full frame, because obviously it's not, or I'm going to say 35 millimeter negative. Technically everything's full frame if we want to get into it. but I can see where some individuals, both professionally and amateurly need to have that look of a larger sensor camera for their creative means. And if they gravitate towards that, because it is their style of craft. I see that and you can still get that look on a PSC on micro four thirds and on one inch sensor. It's just because of that crop factor that wider apertures have to be developed. And that's why Fuji count film came up with a 50 millimeter 1. 0. I mean, that's one of the fastest autofocus lenses in existence. I think there's only one other out there. That's autofocus oriented. And so you can get there. But it was a little bit harder in order to get that route. And product became a little bit bigger as a by product of that. Do I worry about it? No. Do professionals worry about it? Some, but I, there's, people in the industry that have, I've followed for quite a while. Most of which are ambassadors of Fujifilm. The one that comes to mind is Tony Corbell. I'm not sure if you're familiar with him. He is a master of light and. He has worked with Fujifilm for a long time, and he's shooting, I believe, X T3s, and if you see his work, they're just, it's amazing, because he knows what to pick and choose in that repertoire of tools in order to get the image for his customer or his client. And that rarely has to, at least for his scenario, involve a sensor size. I mean, I, I literally don't care about it whatsoever. Sensor size doesn't really mean anything to me. I think aspect ratio was more important surprisingly than sensor size because visually allowed me to see things differently coming from, you know, I went to medium format from APS C, when Fujifilm introduced that six years ago, uh, And I'm like, Oh, wow, this now makes even more sense. And so once again, even though we have medium format within the lineup and I have that, I shoot a hundred megapixels every day. For certain items, I need a smaller, lighter, portable, longer reach camera. And the APS C sensor is kind of that nice Jack of all trades kind of scenario where it does everything really well. And let's be honest, the noise differences these days with how good the noise software is, it doesn't become as much of an issue. And so I try to tell individuals, how does it look? How does it feel? what are the settings that you need within the camera? Does it accomplish your asks? whenever I buy a camera, I write a list. What are my demands? What do I need out of this? And I put it in this hierarchy. And for me, hierarchy, for my style of setup color, sharpness, and for landscapes, Fujifilm specifically was a distance scale, for choosing my focus range. And so that actually gave me better image quality than a full frame camera. Because of this particular tool, I could now choose the appropriate aperture value rather than guessing, because that for landscapes, it was 16 and B there. That was the phrase, right? And now maybe this scenario that calls for my creative choice in this individual image. Might be only F4 because I can visualize and see the depth of field on a visual scale on the back of the camera. And now I know the starting point and end point of my depth of field. And as a byproduct of that, if I can choose a wider aperture, what else does that allow me to do? If I can let in more light, ISO can drop because my exposure time can now be different. And so those results impacted my image a lot greater. Then sensor size ever did, because they're still the same bit depth. There's still 14 bits. You're seeing some dynamic range difference, but that's a stop a light. And what's the difference of a stop of light? 200 and 400 ISO, obviously, as you get higher and higher, depending on your craft and what you do, that may be more of a scenario where you concentrate on another sensor size, but for most individuals, I rarely find that this becomes a topic unless they are told that they have to do that in order to get a good image. And then as we both know, that's just nonsense, right? Of course.

Raymond Hatfield: 37:25

Well, I feel like it's, one of those things where, when it comes to this whole for full frame versus crop or whatever, it always seems as though like, oh, full frame is better than crop full frame. But now that technology continues to advance, and now. Thanks to Fuji, medium format, is more accessible than ever. Why isn't the conversation becoming, medium format versus full frame? Like if that, if that's the game that you want to play, let's always pick, the biggest thing regardless of. But as you said, it really comes down to like, what are your needs? You know, are you shooting in the dark all the time? Are you, you know, shooting super close up portraits all the time where you need, the eyelashes out of focus, but the nose in focus, like, no, like nine times out of 10. No, 99, 999 times out of a thousand people aren't doing that. I would even say it's more than that, but you know, we get the point there. Um, yeah,

Christopher Gilbert: 38:13

obviously defocus in the background, you know, that I'd say what, maybe like six or seven years ago, Bocca become, that became this terminology that everyone kind of talked about. And the defocused areas, was the only way to portray a professional image. But as professionals know, Why would I want to do that in every single scenario? And don't get me wrong. Every sensor size can defocus the background, larger sensors. Let's look at film days and eight by 10. What lenses were there? F8 was really, really fast in terms of, you know, in depth of field. It was so razor thin because it has a reverse crop factor comparing it to 35 millimeter. and I'm not going to do any sort of calculations because my brain think it doesn't work that way. F8 might look like a, I don't know, 0. 8 if I'm looking at a 35mm sensor. The image circle is just drastically different.

Raymond Hatfield: 39:08

Yeah.

Christopher Gilbert: 39:08

And so a lot of things changes the overall sensor size, even focal lengths to get a similar field of view, you know, APS C, that focal length of a 16 may look like a 24, but it's still technically a 16. Optically, that rear portion of the element is closer to the sensor. that's mirrorless technology. Everyone has sharper images as a byproduct of that. They can be much more simple. Because they don't have to account for that space within the SLR where that mirror had to take place and we're reorienting the light become much more problematic.

Raymond Hatfield: 39:42

So then, that was a lot of very technical talk, right? Well, like I'm sure that some people are listening and their eyes just kind of glazed over, right? Trying to listen to some of that. So can you help me kind of figure out how can we use that information? To create better photos. How can those people who are more creatively focused, who are maybe trying to learn some of the technical elements, how can we use that information to again, create better photos?

Christopher Gilbert: 40:07

Perfect. If you have one camera, don't worry about the information because it doesn't matter to you. Easy as that. And so the only reason to worry about crop factor is if you're shooting multiple brands with multiple sensor sizes, and you're trying to match them up because 16 millimeters is 16 millimeters in APS C. There it is. And so trying to navigate that whole scenario where mathematics comes into play, where I'm trying to match another system when I don't necessarily have to, it's convoluted. And I'll be honest, it gets in the way. I use it as an analogy because I have to, in the technical terms, Because of a lot of individuals that have shot film that makes sense to them. If we're talking about field of view oriented with a standardization. Now, how do I use that in a practical sense? You know, more importantly is to discover. What lenses speak to you rather than what sensor size speaks to you. And I'm talking about creatively, how do you like to represent your subject? And so focal length was a lot more important to me in terms of how do I, and then kind of talked about this maybe prior to starting, the podcast was, I like to photograph small subjects and still see that world behind it and a wide angle lens allows me to do that. And obviously that's available on any sort of platform. So why should I worry about what 16 millimeters looks on a 35 millimeter sensor and what 10 millimeter will look on an APS C sensor if I have one camera? Now, if I decide to make that jump and go to a 35 millimeter sensor, having that knowledge when I'm purchasing is important because I can replicate the focal lengths that I've come to know and love. But this is all can be applied backwards too. And that's what I did. You know, I went from a 35 millimeter sensor to APS C. And being able to pick and choose the focal lengths that I like, I like gravitating towards wide angle. So I know the 10 to 24 from Fujifilm was the one that had probably used the most. I knew that 24 millimeter field of view is the perspective that I love. So I purchased the 16 millimeter 1. 4 and that was it. I don't need to make it unnecessarily messy with additional information. If it doesn't pertain to me. And some people love it and some people don't, but does it help your craft knowing all this information when you're owning one camera? Probably not. Are you worried about what an APS C sensor looks like if you're shooting a 35 millimeter sensor and have to for 10 years? Probably not. And so on a day to day basis, I'm going to answer that question with, I don't care.

Raymond Hatfield: 42:50

Yeah, I

Christopher Gilbert: 42:50

don't, I don't use it maybe for my job, teaching other individuals. But I find that showing is so much better than telling. And. Looking at two different lenses on two different cameras and matching the perspective and showing what the lens number is on each one gives a much better idea of what they can do creatively than just telling them some mathematics that they're going to have to calculate in their head.

Raymond Hatfield: 43:15

Yeah.

Christopher Gilbert: 43:16

Well,

Raymond Hatfield: 43:16

I think, it's difficult because like, as you were mentioning earlier, the, uh, the Dunning Kruger effect, right? Like when you first start off with something, You realize that you don't know anything about it. You learn a little bit about it and suddenly you think, man, I know a whole lot about this thing. And then you learn a little bit more and then you realize, oh, I actually don't really know anything here. I think a lot of listeners are at that point to where they've learned a little bit about it. And now they think, Wow, I actually know like quite a bit about photography. And when that happens, your world becomes expanded of all these different options. And there's a very consumerist society where we do want the best thing possible. So when people are telling us, this is the best thing, this is the best thing, this is the best thing. It's hard to not focus on, well, but I do have This thing it may not be you know quote unquote the best thing that I'm being told is the best thing But I do have a thing being a camera in front of me And I need to get out there and just shoot because this is the thing that I have Let's not think about where I want to be in terms of, this is getting really convoluted and like very hypothetical. So, let's not think about Well,

Christopher Gilbert: 44:16

I mean, it's the best

Raymond Hatfield: 44:17

at what? What is

Christopher Gilbert: 44:18

it the best

Raymond Hatfield: 44:18

at?

Christopher Gilbert: 44:18

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 44:19

Well, people are there are so many criteria. That's the thing is that people are There are so

Christopher Gilbert: 44:22

much criteria. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And so the criteria is you define on what makes something better than another. Cause I will be honest. Yeah, you might get better dynamic range out of certain sensors, but if color accuracy is important to you, having the ability to have great out of camera color, as well as camera color within whatever raw processor that you're using. Does that make it better? Does it make it more portable better? Does making high, you know, the bit depth of the file better. I mean, there's so many arguments and what is better. And the answer is none of them. None of them are better. None of the brands are better. There are reasons why I gravitated towards this brand. And I hope that other people will gravitate towards this brand. Because I love it so much. And I find that it really allows me to be more present while I'm shooting, because it's a lot more simple because of the customization and that aligned with who I was as a person, make it my own, not changing my craft for the camera. And a lot of brands do that these days. I think we're intimidated because like anything, it's the Ford versus Chevy scenario. We are constantly comparing ourselves to other end users. And when we're using a small camera and we look over and someone else is using a 600 millimeter lens that costs 16, 000 on a 7, 000 camera, it's intimidating. Cool. You know, that's a huge investment and will their pictures be better than yours? Who knows? Cause that's just money. That's not craft. And so you're going to get much more out of it, finding what you need out of a camera system and you determining whether that sensor size is a byproduct. Because like I said, prior, aspect ratio, when I went to medium format, everything clicked. I'm like spatially aware within the constraints that I can see within my image, it didn't feel as obvious that I was using the golden ratio or the rule of thirds, things weren't offset. And now that I go back to three to two aspect ratio, you know, like what a four by six would look like. I find that items feel like almost widescreen. Yeah. And so, it might be even that sensor because micro four thirds exists. And if you need that reach, it's absolutely usable to have a smaller, lighter system that offers you the benefit of the reduction of field of view, basically that magnification almost to get that far away subject closer to you. And that's a professional tool and a professional means just like a 35 millimeter sensor was a standardization for a while, but before then 35 millimeter wasn't professional. Medium format wasn't professional. Four by five wasn't professional. Eight by 10 wasn't professional. Do you want me to keep going? I mean, it's like all this perception on what does and what doesn't make a professional camera and all that has to do with the standard. It's the photographer and the creator and the person that is crafting that image and how they use that tool. And so it is, for me, it's marketing. I find that sensor size is easier to represent and differentiate because it's seen as a starting point and the cost is so much greater. So a more expensive product might be better, right? Well, if that was the case, we'd all be shooting one particular brand with the biggest sensor out there on the market, and it's not good for everything. And so case in point, what really solidified this, was actually two scenarios. if I can, name drop someone, from the Canon realm, Rick Salmon, who was an ambassador of light. I was able to view, one of his presentations. And he told something, he said something that made me really think. And it was that if people were paying attention to the noise in the image and not the image itself, that's on you as a photographer and you didn't craft a good image. So for me, that was an aha moment. Like, The people that are looking at your images that are connecting to those images are more than likely not photographers and they're not seeing that they're not seeing the dynamic range they're not seeing the noise they don't care because if the message and the creative intent is there and you create something that the viewer can experience and it makes them feel something that's what they're going to remember not what sensor size you shot with because that's just another photographer and they're not going to buy your work they're just going to tell you how they would have done a better job.

Raymond Hatfield: 48:54

It's all a personal journey. It's all a personal journey to figuring it out. it's so funny because, uh, the first wedding that I ever shot, and I've shared the story on the podcast before I was of the mindset of, if I can deliver the best image quality, then the images are the best that they can possibly be. Right. And the photos that I deliver, if I go back and look at those photos today, there's no, there's nothing special, in these images. They're just all shot at like ISO 100 shot at like F 1. 8, you know, and that was it. And unfortunately to my detriment, the entire first dance I shot at a half a second, because I thought I got to keep that ISO as low as possible. Every single one of those photos, super blurry. You have no idea who the bride and groom are. and my thought was, but they're going to see how beautiful the image quality is, and that's going to be it. And that's not what they said. Technicality

Christopher Gilbert: 49:40

doesn't equal artistry. Exactly. and I've, I'm going to be honest. That was part of my route as a photographer, cause I fall victim under the same kind of sense where, when I worked at a camera store, I didn't look at other systems because it was beating in my head. That I had to be technically perfect every single time. So ISO 100 F eight to get the max or F 5. 6 or discover what the maximum sharpness is before I hit diffraction. And, uh, yeah, that was creatively restricting and look at the images. Throughout go through time magazine. They have their top 100 images or whatever. What's in focus. What has motion blur? What is even identical and identifiable in some of those images. And a lot of it is going against the grain, not to use a film terminology, of what's been beaten in their head as photography and what is correct photography. Experiment with it. Do whatever you want, because if you create something that someone can connect to. That's all that's your means you've just created something that is completely viable and you have now found your voice and that can be complete Absent of what is right often. They say find the rules and break them, right? yeah, the rules allow you to get that vision in your head But once you understand the mechanics of everything and how to get those images, that's where you can start exploring and let's be honest You know over exposing underexposing your image doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong What are you trying to highlight? Shadow detail? Highlight detail? It's up to you.

Raymond Hatfield: 51:12

Christopher, I don't know how to end it any better than that. That was about as motivational, as inspirational as I think that you could get, when talking about, you know, obviously a lot of the technicalities. so I appreciate you honing in that we need to kind of figure these things out for ourself and go on that personal journey of photography to discover what it is that we love. So, First, I want to say thank you so much for coming on today. I know that listeners are going to be thinking to themselves, got to see some of Christopher's photos here. So, where is the best place to find you online?

Christopher Gilbert: 51:40

that's quite a funny journey. I, uh, removed myself mostly online, because I found that I was chasing the game rather than chasing the craft. but I am present on Instagram, fujifilm. christopher is my handle. You can find me there and I have a lot of my work. I post every once in a while. I use it as a means to connect with end users, but I find that, and I discovered this in my journey, people that purchased my work or more in person. And so find me at an event with Fujifilm, go to Fujifilm dash X. com. Go to under the events page. Look at some of the options that are on there. If you're in the Midwest. Why don't you send me a DM? I can't answer all the time, but I'm there to help out. Um, and we can chat. And so connecting with other photographers is really one of the highlights of my job because so many of you out there and to use this loose term, inspire me. Because as a teacher, as an educator, it's taken a lot to discover that your students teach you just as much.

Raymond Hatfield: 52:47

That one was super technical. So again, if you are, scratching your head, you know, once or twice, trust me, you're not alone. And that is exactly why we have the free and amazing beginner photography podcast community for you to gain that deeper understanding of the world of photography and ask those questions that may be burning inside. So come join us. Won't you? Again, just head over to beginnerphotography. com. photopod. com forward slash group now to start expanding your knowledge of photography today. Now next up we have a, it's less technical, it's more creative. I chat with Liza Roberts who shoots really interesting, fantasy themed portraits. Think, like Game of Thrones, right? So here Liza is going to teach you how to master the basics of aperture and ISO settings, which will help you to achieve the desired exposure that you're looking for and depth of field in your photography. You're going to learn about color grading, split toning techniques, that can help create a cohesive and compelling visual story with honestly minimal Photoshop manipulation. Less time in front of the computer, more time behind the camera. Lastly, Liza is going to share her valuable insights on using color changing lights for creative indoor shoots which can give you an edge in simulating different lighting scenarios in controlled environments. So Liza, my first question for you is, when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life? In

Liza Roberts: 54:08

high school, I found my dad's old Nikon film camera. Don't ask me what it was because I don't remember. and I'm like, this is really cool. I. Had always been into, different forms. I love painting and drawing primarily. I'm like, let's try this out. So, my dad was a big photographer in college and, really throughout his life. But, he was really excited that I got excited about it. So that was something we connected over. And, when he got our family's first DSLR that I think that was really when like, okay, this is something that I really love and it's going to be. Like special for me. I don't know if I knew like how big it was going to become at that point. I don't know if I was like always like photography is going to be my job, but it was going to be something that I definitely like. did throughout my life. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 54:57

Yeah. I can relate to a lot of those moments. I remember our family getting our first video camera and thinking, Oh, this is cool, but not really understanding like how pivotal I guess that was until like you really start using it and see what it is that it can do. But you said that you found that film camera in high school. What were you taking pictures of at that point? Was it just like friends and family or were you using it in more of a intentional setting?

Liza Roberts: 55:21

Sure. So, the DSLR I, yeah, it was always portraiture for me. I'm an extrovert, so I've always want people around with, whatever I'm doing. So yeah, it was my sisters. It was, I have a lot of great photos of my grandma. I had a lot of self portraits to actually self portraiture, was one of the first. Things that I really focused on, because, you know, you're always available to yourself and it was a great way to play around with, technical aspects, like lighting composition. yeah, it was that a little bit of landscape stuff. When I was traveling just for fun, but mostly portraiture.

Raymond Hatfield: 55:54

So you knew right away, like, are we talking more than just snapshots of friends and family? But like, we're really trying to make a great photo out of these, these people in front of the camera.

Liza Roberts: 56:04

Yeah, it was, yeah, really trying to, make a great composition. Again, light has always been something I love to play with. Sometimes it was, One of the things I forgot to mention that I did a lot was take pictures at my sister's softball games. That was really fun for me, taking action photos. And my dad, it was something that people, you know, my dad really appreciated having those of my sister's like form and stuff as like a, as a softball player, but also just the parents of other players on the team. So that was a rewarding, fun thing for me to give people. But outside that, those kind of snapshots, it was always about. Making a great, a great portrait. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 56:42

I love portraiture because, it's a great way to connect with somebody like in a way that, you can't get just in a regular snapshot, right? Like snapshots are like these fun kind of carefree moments, but there's something about a portrait that I really feel like that is truly how you are able to, capture who somebody is, if you do the right job as a photographer and, and it doesn't feel weird, but like you can get a genuine view of who somebody is through a portrait. And saying that you kind of got started on this, like so early in your photography career, think that's unique because a lot of people get into it much later. So, where did that come from? Was it just seeing your dad's images or being exposed to specifically portraiture, early on when you, when you first picked up the camera?

Liza Roberts: 57:20

That's a great question. One that I actually hadn't thought about in a long time. But if I think about it, I'm immediately recalling, editorial portraits that I used to collect out of magazines. Like, I used to love the Vanity Fair, the iconic, like, everyone cool in Hollywood on the like, fold out cover and they all look so amazing.

Raymond Hatfield: 57:39

Amazing,

Liza Roberts: 57:40

yes. that and just from fine art portraiture, like oil paintings and, what else? I guess just fun, like, seeing people you love and know and these kind of, Intimate images and settings that answer the question? I think it did. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think

Raymond Hatfield: 57:57

magazines. Yeah. So, it was more about seeing the camera as this tool to create something for you rather than, I'm just going to take it and capture some fun, fun memories. does that sound accurate?

Liza Roberts: 58:10

Yeah, for sure. I took a lot of fine art classes in high school. And one thing that I always remember my teacher saying is like, you control the medium, it doesn't control you. anything time I pick up new tool, like whether it be a new set of paints or pens, or I guess even for me, a camera, it's kind of like, this isn't for me, just a fun thing. Like, I'm going to make a, do what I want to do with it. So I don't know. It's just kind of, I think that if you think of any tool that way, it makes it a lot less intimidating. Don't let it scare you. Don't let it intimidate you. And like, it really is just there for you to do what you want to do with it. I don't know. Does that make sense?

Raymond Hatfield: 58:45

Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, such a hard thing. I think for new photographers to, to figure out, it takes a long time to figure that out. I've shared many times that it's like, you know, you get the camera, you realize that an auto doesn't really take the best photos. So once you control, the tool, the medium, you start taking better photos. But like, while you're in that stage, I don't know, you're not learning photography at that point. You're still learning the tool, but then once you learn what the tool can do and how to control it, that's when it really starts, to take off. And you can use it in the ways that that you imagine. So was it similar for you when you first picked up the camera? Were you shooting an auto? Or did you first get into like, no, no, no, we're going to figure out how to do this thing proper and go all in.

Liza Roberts: 1:00:19

Sure. So I loved, you know, before we even started this interview, you're like, I'm not going to ask you a lot of technical questions. I'm like, that's great. I'm not a technical photographer to this

Raymond Hatfield: 1:00:29

technical question.

Liza Roberts: 1:00:31

of course, that now I know, like, what the different settings, like, things mean, but they do not like, guide my work. Really? Like, I just. Mess around with what I think looks good, even if it's not the most technical, technically correct composition or settings. I just. play around with what I like, and then I'll figure it out in post if it worked or not, or make it work for me. so when I first started, I think that was kind of my approach to, again, like, I control the medium, I'm not going to let it control me. So, yeah, I think I shot a lot on auto because, It was intimidating. Of course, you have this buttons and like, what does all this mean? I did play around with manual settings a while, but cameras, of course, were not as advanced as what we have now. Like now my, I shoot with the Canon R6. I can see real time, like what I'm doing, with the settings, like, which has been a game changer, again, because I'm not a technical photographer. Yeah, so auto setting was really the way to go for me when I, first started out.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:01:27

So what then was the biggest struggle for you? it all just unicorns and rainbows or was there a learning curve?

Liza Roberts: 1:01:34

Definitely learning curve. I think for me, was figuring out, mean, it's all kind of overwhelming at 1st light light for some reason was pretty easy for me figuring out, like, what I liked with lighting. but I guess just. all of it, is that a good answer? Um, just it. The really the technical, just like all the buttons and, figuring out what, aperture worked with this ISO setting and figuring out the right combinations for what works with what before I got. Yeah. So let's go fast forward a few years from when I started photography into when I got my 1st, beginner, like DSLR camera as an adult after stepping away from it for a few years, I didn't have this nice, back of camera, like, visuals where I could see real time what I was doing. So, it was really frustrating thinking like, oh, I got this great shot and, realizing later once I loaded it on the computer, like, this is awful. This is not at all. It's out of focus, it's so grainy. So really just figuring out the combinations for what's outside or what's in the studio as far as, like lighting, I guess I'm rambling now, but that's how the way I'm talking is how it felt. It's just, it's all

Raymond Hatfield: 1:02:48

over the place. Yeah. You're just trying to figure out the best that you can, but you're not alone. I mean, I know that, many times in the, Facebook community, I've, heard photographers say, I thought that I killed it while I was out there shooting. And then I got home and. All of those are out of focus or the highlights are so blown out. You can't see anything. That is a common mistake. So how do you get over that?

Liza Roberts: 1:03:07

You play around. You let yourself fail. one of the things I tell new photographers now is, on a day when you have Maybe you have time to kill, go out, take some self portraits, grab a friend who has some time to kill too, and just do everything wrong. Let yourself do everything wrong. Start with the most ridiculous settings you can think of, and don't worry about quality, just worry about quantity, take a bunch of photos, then rearrange things, take a bunch that way, give yourself a wide range of settings and, take a ton of shots, load them on, see what works, upload them on to whatever editing program you're using, Go through and see what you like and what you don't like. I mean, there could be something that comes out of that session that this isn't technically right. Like, I use this ridiculous aperture. iSO with this lighting, but you know what? I really like it. And who cares if it's not technically correct. And I think that's where I let my when I started to do that is when I, you know, Okay. Found some of my best work or the work that I like most who cares if it's best for other people, you know,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:04:08

of course, 100 percent 100%. So does that mean after a shoot, you would come back and look at all the photos and dissect them piece by piece on the computer?

Liza Roberts: 1:04:17

Yeah, yeah. I mean, of course, you can give yourself some time, if you don't want to do it right away. But yeah, take some time. And again, it's hard to do, but don't worry about the quality of the photos, get a ton of photos, get quantity of photos, and then pick maybe five out of those 200 that you're like, okay. These are the ones that I love because, and then make notes to yourself, like, this was out of focus, but look at the cool, the lighting that I got here. And then next time you go out on a practice day like that, use those settings. Start with the settings and just tweak them slightly rather than going through the wide range that you did the first time.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:04:59

That is a great tip. And I know people are going to rewind that and say, Oh, I gotta, I gotta go out and try that. That

Liza Roberts: 1:05:05

helps. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:05:06

I know that, many people starting out in photography, typically emulate what it is that they see. well, I think, I think that the common path is like people, maybe they take a great photo on their phone and then they say, Oh, it'd be great. I'd love to see what I can get out with a real camera. They get the real camera and see like, Oh my gosh, what I'm creating is garbage. So then they go to look for inspiration places like Facebook or Pinterest, you know, whatever it is and then start emulating that because they need some sort of starting point. Your photography is not what I would expect to see on Pinterest or something. There's definitely a visual style that I would say is, uniquely, different than those images. is a lot of your work dependent on shooting style or a lot of post production, I guess? Is that a good question? Does that make sense?

Liza Roberts: 1:05:48

Yeah, that totally makes sense. I guess I'll say a little bit of both. You mentioned, sources of inspiration. I'm going on Pinterest, whatever. so shooting style. Mine is definitely influenced by cinema. I love the, like, sweeping, cinematic, very, Visually appealing movies like, the Green Knight, for example. I know people have a big mixed feelings about that movie, but the cinema of it is so beautiful. The colors and framing is just incredible. So movies like that definitely influenced my shooting style, which I think, people notice like, when we're talking about my photography, people mention that. So I think that defines my work a bit. But then that's inspiration of cinema definitely carries over into the editing the post production of my work to, which is something that I think. I wish I would see other people like more people like play with just it's so fun if you like something, you find on Pinterest or whatever, you can use that, use that in your editing to take note of the colors, the composition. Is it? it symmetrical? Is it like, how have they framed the subject? I think for me, yeah, it's, it's both. Both is the answer. Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:06:57

it's, it's, it's got to come from both for sure. So when, it comes to editing, when I look at your work, I don't necessarily think, Oh my gosh, Liza did a lot of editing here. Like it looks over edited. So, can you talk to me briefly about, what is your editing process? What is the goal for you when a photo, comes in from the computer?

Liza Roberts: 1:07:15

Sure. Yeah, I don't like to over edit. so I'm a fantasy photographer. That's how I define myself. and I knew when I got into this, I wanted my work to be fantasy, but really rooted in realism. So more like Lord of the Rings rather than like a, I'm trying to think that something that's really over the top, like, I can't even think isn't that crazy?

Raymond Hatfield: 1:07:36

I'm trying to think too. Let's see. What's a crazy fantasy movie? Like

Liza Roberts: 1:07:41

even labyrinth is kind of like, you get this like gritty like realism with it, you know, more like Lord of the Rings than like Barbie kind of like everything's technicolor and there's like lots and lots of butterflies and like whimsical. So yeah, more rooted in realism. So when I, edit, always keep that in mind. I want my subjects To feel like themselves to look like themselves. and be really rooted in this realistic world. I want people to feel like this is attainable. I guess when they look at my work, like, that's something they could do. That's some place they could be. So, I don't add a lot of, source images. I don't do a lot of, photo painting or, anything like that to make, to give it kind of an otherworldly. Feel in that sense, yeah, so, but mostly with my editing, I'm doing lots of color grading to give it that, the field that I want. Again, light has a lot to do with, How I want people to see and like how I want my work to feel, those are the big things. I hardly ever, take images into Photoshop every once in a while. I will if I want to do some background replacement or something, but mostly it's just light room playing around in there.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:08:50

It's funny, I got a question the other day, which I get all the time, which is what's better, Photoshop or Lightroom? it's so hard, because I'm the same way, like shooting weddings, it's like the majority of my work is all done in Lightroom, Yeah. I would imagine for somebody maybe who's doing like a lot of composites, type, fantasy imagery, fire, and, Yeah. I mean, it's easy to say dragons when you say fantasy, but like those types of elements, That would definitely be a job for Photoshop. So, when it comes to you it's, it seems more, character driven, I guess, then it's just, oh, here's, and some fire and dragons and whatnot. and I'm always interested because on your website you say specifically that you are inspired by many places like literature, cinema, like you just said, music, poetry, and the natural world. Now, when I think of, music, I can't imagine Just because my brain as we were talking about earlier is the worst being inspired for a photo through music So is there some sort of common theme throughout all of those That sparks the inspiration for an image for you,

Liza Roberts: 1:09:48

common three theme throughout those different

Raymond Hatfield: 1:09:51

literature cinema music poetry

Liza Roberts: 1:09:54

I guess kind of sweeping, sort of almost romanticized, character driven is, I, I love that. I've never heard anyone say, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. yeah, sweeping, character driven like storytelling. I guess storytelling really is the main thing. I mean, these are, All art tells a story, and it's vehicle is usually those characters. So again, that's why I'm drawn to portraits. I like people like who are telling the story.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:10:19

is there an example of a song maybe that for you, you listen to it, there was something about it that you thought, oh my gosh, I know exactly what it is that, that I want to capture.

Liza Roberts: 1:10:28

Actually, so usually when I'm thinking of songs, it's cinematic soundtracks or even like classical music. that kind of lets me tell my own story, when I think of it. let's take one that maybe everyone knows like Vivaldi's like spring or that any of the season suites, it's like these very, intense, like strings and just really sweeping full orchestra. so let's take spring for example. to me, I immediately think of huge, century dresses and like proper, like high ladies and, beautiful, Spring day with gardens and, It could be like, I love doing picnic shoots. you can see like some of the Rococo picnic shoots I've done before. I'll send you a photo that can, that people have it. so that would definitely be playing like in my brain when I'm shooting one of those, like picnics where all my friends are dressed up in these 18th century dresses with like macaroon cakes and everything's very dainty and like high society and, Yeah, I think, if you play that and like maybe look at the images that I took, you can be like, okay, I see what I kind of, I can, I can get that.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:11:33

Okay. Okay. I see it. so then can you talk me through maybe what the planning process looks like for you to capture photos? Because I guess the first question that I have is, like imagine I was five years old, right? And all the images that you've ever seen in your life are, cell phone photos that somebody took on, their family event or whatever. And then somebody sees your photos, which are clearly like they're put together. it took time to create these images. People had to get dressed up. and you know, you might even confuse it for like a really like old timey photo because it's so put together so well, especially when it comes to like composition and whatnot. and they were to ask like, why do you do this? Like, why do you shoot this? What is this for? what would you

Liza Roberts: 1:12:12

say to that? It's for people who want to daydream and escape, through art. it's for people who want to, maybe tell their own story about, like looking at my image, like, sure, I have my own story when I tell these images, but audience, and of course it's a niche audience, it's not for everyone, but, I think the niche audience that I, you know, I'm lucky to have, likes finding an escape in these images and the images that I take

Raymond Hatfield: 1:12:38

when you said, like, I'm just kind of telling a story here. It's people who enjoy those types of stories. My brain immediately went to, could I imagine asking fantasy writer? Why do you write fantasy? Like that's, uh, but, that perfectly makes sense. you're telling these stories. So when you are inspired by cinema or music or poetry, do you immediately think like, here's what a theme for a shoot could be? Or does a single image pop into your head before you start planning the rest?

Liza Roberts: 1:13:03

Sure, it could be. I mean, it could be either way. I also do. Cosplay stuff. So it's, you know, literal translation of a film. So that's one way you could look at it, I guess. but let's go back to, let's pick a film movie. Everyone knows Lord of the Rings, for example, is a good example. I see, let's think about, when Frodo, first meets Galadriel in this like, incredible, enchanted realm. so I can take that, like, still, or idea of that world in my mind and just, okay, I like this certain aspect of that, let's just take, Galadriel's dress, for example, and maybe I can, I'm gonna do a whole shoot around just her gown, so it doesn't even have to end up being about Lord of the Rings, it could just be this beautiful, ethereal, shoot with, gems and pearls and this kind of starlight atmosphere. And it's, it all came from the gown, but now, you know, it's nothing at all about like the root of the film. It's just like this. Pretty photo.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:14:04

Yeah, it comes, it comes out of your imagination. You take what you saw and then you tweak it into something else.

Liza Roberts: 1:14:09

Yeah. So when people ask me a lot about, sorry, taking on a tangent here about, how I get inspired for shoots, cause I, I see people, who want to be photographers struggling a lot, like, okay, this is such a cool idea. How do I do that? Like what did what inspired you? Yeah, you can literally take like anything you love and just It's like those photos like when you zoom in further and further and further to a photo like just take that's another fun exercise you could do even like find a screenshot from a movie love pick one part of it like I like their sword I like that gown look at that cool waterfall in the background like just take that crop it out of the image and just let them let that be your source of inspiration like okay I'm going to tell a story about this one piece of the gown, for example, and it doesn't even have to be about a gown that could be your like background or that could become the world for the image. So I don't know. That might be a fun way to for people to play around with inspiration.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:15:07

Of course. And one of the biggest, excuses, let's call it what it is that most photographers have is that they don't have enough time to go out and shoot and they're like, that's the only way that you can get better. Yeah. But I could totally see how, paying attention to images like that and getting close and really looking at those details could give you an eye and, spark some inspiration. So, that completely makes sense. I love that. let's keep diving into the planning process here, because, um, again, coming from weddings, I think. if I think of an engagement session, you got to get like the wide of, you know, where we're at, maybe a close up, an intimate shot, some details, maybe hands and whatnot. And I almost try to tell a story like throughout the images, like we just showed up, we got a little closer, maybe we're telling some jokes. then it starts to get, more romantic and then it ends with, some details and then like the shoots over, like what is next? Right. That's kind of how I approach it. when you are coming up with an idea for, this new fantasy shoot that you are doing, is it similar to you?

Liza Roberts: 1:16:01

Sure. so would it be helpful? I guess if, if I answered the question, just like this is start to finish kind of like my planning process, I can't imagine that

Raymond Hatfield: 1:16:10

people would say this isn't helpful at all. So yeah, absolutely. Good.

Liza Roberts: 1:16:13

Okay, cool. so like many other people, I also use, Pinterest or, You can refer back to what I just said about the like, finding a screenshot. Yes. and then once I have that, I will pick a location. That's really important to me. I don't have a studio. I'm completely outdoor, natural light. So, I'll find that. and then you, Get your models or, you know, if you're a self portrait artist, good, like awesome that a lot of your work is already done taking care of, taking care of, And then when you're ready to shoot, which I think is like the crux of what you're asking. Yeah, I also, try to have like a an idea of what I want my head or don't be afraid to take notes. I have a billion notes in my notes app on my phone or whatever, of specific shots I want, but don't be afraid to, stray away from that list to like, I know how easy it is to get stressed out, especially when you're working with models because you're working with other people's time. You don't you want it. Yeah. At least I am always like, super cognizant, hyper focused. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, like, I have all these people waiting on me and like, but, um, take your time, they'll understand, like, it's worth the shot to, like, play around to, get what you want to get. but. Play around and that can go for any type of photographer, like wedding photographers to I myself have done weddings and, your couple is going to be happier if you take a little time to play and let them play with you rather than, you know, okay, I got my shots, stress done. It's okay. Like play a little bit. yeah, going back to the shot list. I also will do detail shots. I think that's really cool and important to have just like, even if it's not a full person, like their hands, like holding a sword, especially like swords are creme de la creme and the fantasy. And I guess the last part of the shoot is, just. Let yourself breathe and like, no, you did a great job. Like maybe you didn't get the shot that you wanted exactly, but that's okay. I'm sure you got another shot that's like took its place like because you had fun with it. yeah, that's important.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:18:13

Yeah, I agree. Fun is a very important element to photography. So if you come up with a shot list, you have this rough idea of what it is that you want. You go there. you try to stick to it, but You're open to playing around. How do you know if, because time is, like you said, very important, you got to be aware of these people and, and they're waiting on you, how do you know whether or not you did a good job before, the session is over and you let them go home and, you can't shoot anymore. So how do you know that you did a good job at a shoot?

Liza Roberts: 1:18:44

Sure. the like technical answer, I guess, for this is of course, like, take time to like, look, you know, even look at the back of the screen. I know I have some friends who have monitors or you can like, load them onto your phone and kind of just quickly like, go through and okay, good. I got the shot that I wanted. I don't do that. Maybe I should, but, um, I have seen people do that, though. I'm like, that's fine. But it's more fun to be

Raymond Hatfield: 1:19:08

surprised.

Liza Roberts: 1:19:08

It's more fun to be surprised. And if you feel truly like you got what you like, and you're confident, not even if you're confident, even if you just aren't. Let people know that you had a good time and you, feel satisfied, I guess, with the work that you did, like, they're gonna reflect that, you're the photographer, you're the one, like, leading the shot, so own it, like, it's gonna be okay, your models are gonna be happy that you're happy, so. Yeah, just, even if you didn't get it, just, move on to the next thing, you're gonna be fine.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:19:37

It's a bit of a feeling, it sounds like.

Liza Roberts: 1:19:39

It's a feeling, yeah, for sure. Okay,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:19:41

okay. I always found that part kind of difficult because I know,

Liza Roberts: 1:19:44

It is. It's very

Raymond Hatfield: 1:19:45

easy to, feel like you killed it and then come home and, you know, look at your photos and think, what did I do? And I always, just to, kind of get over that, I always have at least a one week period before I will edit any photos. Like, I will put them into my computer so that they're backed up. But if I see the photos immediately, all I'm going to think about is, Oh, I should have done this. Or I could have stepped off to the side. Or how did I not, see that the light was doing that thing or whatever. Um, do you feel the same or do you come back and you're like, Oh, I'm ready to go. let's edit.

Liza Roberts: 1:20:12

I've done both. yeah, I think, you know, of course, when you have that feeling immediately, it's exciting to come on and load them on the computer. but yeah, there have definitely been, every photographer has a time when they're like, I disappointed myself. and it's totally okay to give yourself time. I think it's totally okay to also just like load it on the computer. when I do that, and I load it on the computer, and I do find that I didn't get what I wanted, or it's not as good as I wanted it to be, it's okay to be really bummed about that. Like, let yourself, give yourself time, don't touch them, come back to them in the week then. because yeah, that really sucks. Like, it happens to just remember it happens to everyone. I guess the question then is like, what do I do with the work that I have? Yeah. use it as Experience to teach yourself like, okay, maybe next time I get more shots. again, try that kind of quantity over quality thing, that exercise that we talked about earlier, maybe sneak that in a little bit to a shot. Like, that's okay. If you can't do that, use it as a, chance to edit in different ways or, watch some YouTube tutorials. even if you've been doing photography for a zillion years and you think like you're a master, like, go back to YouTube, watch a basic tutorial again. Everyone can benefit from like a basic class. and then maybe you'll remember something or relearn something that will help you with this, this work that you're not super satisfied with. And remember, Lastly, that you're your own worst critic, I'm sure the people that you're taking the photos of are going to be super excited to have them and to see them.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:21:45

Right, right. Oh my gosh. I can't count how many times you're like, Oh, I got this killer shot. And then you send it to, your client or whatever. And they use a shot that you absolutely hated, like as their profile photo. You're like, what is this? Why would you use that shot? Always. Whatever, I guess. Yeah, yeah. It's subjective. Yeah, yeah. If they're happy. And again, it goes back to like what you said. You are 100 percent your own worst critic. this may be kind of a personal question, but can you tell me like one of the most difficult shoots you had, ever had and kind of what you had learned from it?

Liza Roberts: 1:22:15

Sure. well, let me think about it for a second because I, I can like the feet. No, I wish I can recall that feeling. I'm just trying to think of like one that's like a good, like, you know, let's see here. this one didn't go the way I wanted to, ended up being like good and people liked it. It wasn't like soul crushing, but I was doing a shoot with my friend Rachel. like I said, I don't usually shoot indoors. I love just natural light, so I'm not super well versed in Playing around with photography lighting. I do have a, have a little bit of a background in theater. I studied theater for a while, but that's another story. Anyway, so we were playing with these really fun, color changing, like lights and making them look like. Stage lights, we were doing a clown, like Pierro shoot. And I was like, this is so fun. This looks awesome. I can't wait to get back and edit these. and again, like we just talked about, I get on, I'm like, what am I going to do with these? Like, they look cool, I guess, but like, it's not my usual style and Rachel's awesome, but she's got a substantial following. So I'm like, I want to give her these photos. people are expecting these photos, like, what am I going to do? and it wasn't super exciting to edit for me. but once I did, decided it was a good. Opportunity to just play because it's not what I usually do. So why not? Why not? Just use it as like a learning opportunity. so I played around with like the light colors, which is easy to do because they were so saturated to the color, like, you know, but turning and color sliding sliders and whatever was really fun to play with. I just. experimented with, anything I could think of really. And just like, let's just slide everything around in Lightroom. and it ended up being like, it wasn't my favorite. People ended up really liking it.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:23:58

you are your critic.

Liza Roberts: 1:24:00

Exactly. It all comes back to that.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:24:02

How did Rachel take it? did she like the

Liza Roberts: 1:24:04

photos? Yeah, I think she really liked them. Yeah, I ended up liking them too. Again, it's not like. Wasn't like my favorite shoot like that. We'd ever done together. But yeah, I think it worked out pretty well

Raymond Hatfield: 1:24:14

Yeah, that is I'm happy to hear that. there was a good ending Thanks. looking on your website I see that you also do like photo retreats and whatnot and you have one coming up called Elysian fields. Is that right?

Liza Roberts: 1:24:25

It's this weekend. Yes, that's right

Raymond Hatfield: 1:24:27

Tell me how these retreats work

Liza Roberts: 1:24:31

Sure. I mean, I love photography, but I am, like I said earlier, a huge extrovert. I love doing these retreats. These are probably, like, equal with photography for, like, passions for me. what I do is I offer folks, usually around 10 people, a weekend of adventure and photo shoots, networking. And, just really, uh, creative relaxation. we all get together in an Airbnb. I try to find, either a really cool Airbnb and within itself so we can shoot inside or, kind of a destination location. So this one is going to be in Port Valley, Virginia. this actually just happened to be the location that people most requested. It's a really cool, rural farm. people are going to meet there where we always, on these retreats have a theme. So, for the photo shoots, I usually do between 2 and 3 photo shoots. this 1, the themes are Friday is, mythical beings from around the world. So, whatever your culture is, find some sort of mythical being that. You can dress up like that.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:25:35

What do you do with dragons?

Liza Roberts: 1:25:36

Absolutely. You can do dragons, dress up like a dragon. There will be photographers, including myself, my friend Maddy. And then if you're a photographer, you're welcome to join too. A lot of these retreats are people who are modeling. But every once in a while I do get photographers who want to come. Saturday we're doing pre Raphaelite inspired. Kind of like Arthurian legend. So, if you just like Google pre Raphaelite, like Arthur, Arthurian legends, you'll see what I'm talking about. we'll do photo shoots. the thing I think people like most about these retreats though, as I mentioned, is the networking and making friends. one thing I hear so often from people is, how do you find people to do this work with? wish I had friends like that. I wish I could do this. Well, you can. And like, my friends and I are like. we didn't know each other before. We're like, Hey, you're cool. You want to just like literally DM them, you know, and like, let's do a thing together, which is super scary. But once you've put yourself out there, you can do it. And that's what these retreats are for really is to break the ice, like meet people in person. So it's not like the awkward act of DMing people. and yeah, by the end of the retreat weekend, you've got a ton of content, like artwork. Photos from the photo shoots. And you've got nine other people who you, are really fast friend with because you've been jammed into an Airbnb, like all like dressing up like dragons together for a weekend. So yeah, they're really fun. It's very a lot of Airbnb

Raymond Hatfield: 1:27:03

full of dragons. I love it. Yeah, so from the photography standpoint you have your idea you have your people What do you bring in because I know that costumes are a big important thing for you and same with them the accessories as well is that the biggest element of this to, for you to bring it all together? is the costumes and the props or is there more to it

Liza Roberts: 1:27:22

for the retreats or for like, for the, yeah,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:27:25

you have a bunch of people showing up. How are you going to ensure that you get the photos that you want that match the themes, that you have set forward? Um,

Liza Roberts: 1:27:32

That's another really good point, actually. So, I do offer like costume packages. If people want that, I will try if I can, if I can. Usually I'm traveling and flying. I'll try to bring what costumes I have available for folks. People that's the number one thing, though. People are like, what do I wear? like panicking because they see I do have really elaborate costumes in my work sometimes or my friends have them. don't worry about it. if I have, an idea for, again, let's say a Rococo's, like, Pink Marie Antoinette photo shoot, like, that's okay. We can fake it for you. Don't spend thousands of dollars on a dress, there are a zillion other ways we can, get you looking just as awesome as the person next to you who maybe did spend a thousand dollars on a dress. I'm actually working on a, my second YouTube video about how to, like, do costumes on a budget right now. so yeah, don't panic about the cost.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:28:23

What are some of those tips I want to know? how do you costume on a budget?

Liza Roberts: 1:28:25

I'll give you a little, little sneak preview. So, yes. Exclusive. Um, Lucid, that's right. so the first thing I always do if I'm Looking for a costume is again make a pinterest board visual inspiration is key really pay attention to little details because that's what's going to help you fake a costume So in my youtube video I choose like a renaissance look So, I compare, I bought a dress from Costura Royale, which is one of my favorite, like, places to buy costumes. It's just beautiful, kind of like, angel sleeve, like, big, long drape sleeve, renaissance gown, medievally renaissance gown. and then I show you, okay, let's try to find something like this on Poshmark, which is an online thrift store, or you can go, thrift in person. I study a Pinterest image. one thing I do is point out the detailing, the trimming along the edge of the dress. And I find, a velvet gown that has, some trim. It's more modern looking trim, but it's per a photo. Like no one's going to be like, I see that that's, you know, like they're not, it's not going to matter for a photo. but that little detail does kind of help bring it closer to the period that you're looking for. And then, going from there, just like, little details, like having a chemise underneath the dress, for example, which you can find on Amazon for like 15 rather than the 200 one you can buy on Etsy, also both valid options, but. again, easier to find on a budget. and then, little details like you mentioned accessories, like hair, doing your hair with a simple braid, and adding, what's called a snood, which is actually looks kind of like a lunch lady hair net, but they wore them, in the renaissance is kind of a decorative hair piece. Again, you can find them on Amazon and that will help, bring your costume look full circle, like bring it all together, look at make it look a little more cohesive. so just really paying attention to detail. I'm going to say that again will help you, make a look work on a budget.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:30:25

Does that answer the

Liza Roberts: 1:30:25

question?

Raymond Hatfield: 1:30:26

It does 100%. I mean, because I am not fashion forward, as you can see here with my Sherpa. You look great. Okay. I appreciate that. but, for me, it's always hard. as I mentioned earlier, when I was in film school, I would pay attention to the costume design students and, I'd listen into some of their teachings. And it was always, About like the smallest details and I I don't know that's just not where my brain goes It's always like here's the meat of the story and I always have the hardest time with details and even when my wife was like Let's redo our entire bathroom and I'm like Okay, I don't know how we're gonna do that and she comes up with all the small details and that's what like ties it all together So it sounds to me like, correct me if I'm wrong, a great way to get better at details is finding that inspiration and zooming into those shots and just really looking at a photo and studying it. Is that right?

Liza Roberts: 1:31:15

Yeah, absolutely. and again, you said earlier, like finding the time to shoot is hard. Like, how am I supposed to sit down? And just remember like that, that's an investment in your work too, just as much as getting a shot or, going out and the act of photography is part of your job, doing the homework and research as part of your job too. And let, yourself. Do that. Like for me, I have a hard time like every photographer, if I'm not actively doing something every day, I remind myself, even watching a movie is doing research, if I'm watching, Lord of the Rings for the 70th time, like this time I'm going to pick up a new detail I didn't last time. And that's going to make my work better because I noticed that detail, Yeah, any little detail you can pick up, take note of it and that's worth your time too. I,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:32:02

yeah, I, just did the math, 70 times watching Lord of the Rings is 2100 hours of enjoying Lord of the Rings. So that is phenomenal. That is a lot of research right there. That's a lot of homework that you are doing. And that's exactly why I write off going to the movies on my taxes as education for my business. You can

Liza Roberts: 1:32:21

absolutely.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:32:22

Absolutely. It's wonderful. I got one last question for you here, Liza, and it is, I want you to, if I were to ask you to close your eyes and imagine a Liza Roberts photo, what does that photo look like? what elements make up that image?

Liza Roberts: 1:32:35

Sure. So, it's a strong, uh, Character, let's use that word again. I really like to, Liza Roberts images, really like to feature marginalized, folks. I think, I want my work to give them a platform. So, let's say that's the character, it's a sweeping landscape or, some sort of transportive location, lots of golden light. and definitely a sword. There's always a sword in there. Definitely

Raymond Hatfield: 1:33:02

a sword. Gotta have the sword. Yeah. Um, that's perfect. I think, That's a hard, exercise to do is to describe your own work because sometimes it feels like you can be so, in it, right? You're so, what's the, uh, the phrase? you can't see the forest through the trees or something like that. Yeah. The trees through the forest, whatever it is. I know what you mean. Yeah. You know, all the bad photos you take, you know, all the good photos you take, you know, all the work that goes into it. And seeing those straight out of camera photos versus like the, edited and shared images, it's hard to separate those. So, I appreciate. That you're able to do that, to really think that through and describe that because I don't know if I would be able to do that, honestly, I'll have to try sometime. Anyway, Liza, I gotta ask, I know people are thinking to themselves, this sounds really interesting. Who doesn't love swords? Who doesn't love fantasy? Who doesn't love dragons? I would love to see more of, Liza's work. Can you share with us where we can, find you online?

Liza Roberts: 1:33:53

Absolutely. So, I'm on Instagram, TikTok, at Lizabet, L I Z A B E T, Roberts. and also on YouTube, getting there under Lizabet Roberts. So, yeah. Yeah, and LizaBetRoberts. com.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:34:09

Now, as much as I love showing up to a wedding day and documenting the day with little, interference on my part, I loved hearing Liza's approach to building an image from scratch. Now, if you need help coming up with creative ideas to shoot, I got you covered with my free guide of 46 creative photography ideas. So whether you're looking to expand your knowledge of photography, or you need a kickstart to get you out of a rut, this free guide is perfect for you. So you can grab it for free over at creative image ideas. com. Up next, here is my interview with photographer and author Michael Freeman, who will teach you the importance of commitment and continuous learning in photography. Michael talks about how staying dedicated and constantly refining your options is crucial for growth. You'll learn how introducing small surprises or changes to your image can make your work stand out and capture just more engaging photographs. And finally, Michael is going to discuss the value of studying the works of other photographers to stay inspired and be open to new ideas, you know, offering insight into what makes a compelling image Michael, I want to know, when did you first know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Michael Freeman: 1:35:20

It wasn't a sudden moment. It happened gradually. Let me see, this is a very long time ago in the 1960s. Right. And in those days. You didn't generally didn't do whatever you wanted. You didn't have gap years and you did what you were told. and basically at school I was told I should apply to Oxford or Cambridge and I did. So I went to Oxford. when I left Oxford, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I studied geography, which, you know, was fun, but it didn't want to become a geography teacher. and I went into advertising. Advertising at that time was very fashionable. In fact, I joined Central and I joined a New York agency, one of the biggest at the time, and it was the British operation to keep big clients like Procter Gamble and General Foods and IBM happy. It was fun, but I got bored in the end, or sort of frustrated, really, and I mean, the work was, it was interesting for a while, but at the time, I'd always wanted to take photographs, but also I'd always wanted to write. So, I mean, for me, it was a case of, Something like feature journalism was a vague ambition, but that wasn't on the cards. It wasn't a proper job. When I was at Oxford, I spent more time working on the university newspaper than I did on the course. but journalism was not seen as serious. I know that sounds strange, but it wasn't a proper career. So I'd done my duty because everyone told me to. But in the end, I decided I really needed to get out and do something. So it was then after a few years in advertising and I escaped. By, taking a sabbatical. Again, it's a different era. It just wouldn't be possible now. But my boss, two times higher, he, he took a sabbatical and went around the world with his champagne heiress wife to visit old friends around the world. And I thought that sounds pretty good idea. But what I'd always wanted to do was go up the Amazon. We're either going to be a stock rider in Queensland, or we'd be an adventurer of the Ansems. So, some, many years later, I decided, right, I said, I want a sabbatical too, for two and a half months. And they said, okay, that means they pay you, and they just wait for you to come back. Sort of like maternity leave. I bought some second hand cameras, Hasselblads from a guy in the media department. And I, took a plane to South America and wandered around. So it was very irresponsible. But that was the way I got myself.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:38:23

I appreciate you sharing that. I think that a lot of people can resonate, starting going to school for something to learn it, get into that career and then decide later on that they want to switch. But had photography been in your life, before this point, because it sounded like you were in school, you were interested in the journalism, but like, where did the idea for capturing your trip to the Amazon on photos come from? Because, in my head, it's. How great would it be just to go and experience those things, you know, very few people actually think to themselves, let's take a camera and especially Hasselblad. So like, where did this idea of the importance of photography come from? Was it at an early age?

Michael Freeman: 1:38:58

I really don't know the answer to that, despite the fact I've had plenty of time to think about it. But Gradually from an early age, to me, photography was a kind of magic. Just the idea that you could capture a moment, not that my early moments were particularly special, was, there's some magic to it, something that was beyond logic. Mm hmm. And I had the ability to make interesting looking images, so ones that I thought were interesting. So, it became, gradually, a real interest, and then a need.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:39:41

So, when, you're in the Amazon, you have these Hasselblads. There's no auto mode, there's no, uh, aperture priority, there's nothing. It's, these things are full manual, right? No

Michael Freeman: 1:39:49

autofocus,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:39:50

right? Yeah, nothing. So, how did those photos turn out? was normal. You know, that was normal. No, of course. Of

Michael Freeman: 1:39:57

course. When autofocus came out, we used to joke about it and say, what, you know, if you can't focus the lens anyway, you shouldn't be a photographer. Why would you need autofocus? You work with what you've got in anything in life. particularly anything that involves any kind of technology. So we didn't know anything better than that. Sure. And, and these Hasselblads, first of all, they were, I got a really good deal. Yeah. And then I got a, another one from a client, a Swedish client, and he wanted a rubber dinghy. And so we arranged that we'd do a swap, so basically I had this super wide, which is a compact little asphalt lamp, and it cost me 125 pounds, let's say 160. No. Yeah, it did. And, you know, I still use it. Well, I came back to using it a couple of years ago. So now I travel with it. and it's a beautiful, I don't know, there's, you know, cameras and equipment a tricky thing in photography because it's evident that too many people spend too much time going on about it. You only have to go to any sort of photography fair just to see, oh God, it's ridiculous, you know, but nevertheless, so we always like to say, Hey, it's just a tool. Okay. But nevertheless, every serious photographer pays a great deal of attention to the equipment. So there's this sort of, ambivalent relationship between something that it's what you use, so you have to love it and take good care of it, but you have to think, shall we say, through the viewfinder, not twiddling knobs.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:41:51

Sure, sure. Having the knowledge that you have today, you've had a long career in photography. If you think back to those first photos that you took in the Amazon, right, like this was kind of your first attempt at really trying to make something interesting, artistic. Sick. What would you say about those photos? were they lacking, as compared to where you are today?

Michael Freeman: 1:42:09

Well, there's two views. One is, how did they look at the time? And I was surprised. there was quite a number of good ones that I liked. And in the end, actually, that's the only thing that matters. And even if your eye and your judgment isn't fully developed, that doesn't matter. I mean, it will, or it'll move somewhat, but you got to have, they got to please you. and obviously the more, the more you come to know about photography. About the world of photography, your place in it, what other people do, then, if you're paying attention, your judgment will get better and you'll be more critical, and hopefully improve. But, I still have a few of those pictures, which I, um. It's still a good picture. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it was partly an escape, a real escape, a sort of trying to escape an area that I'd found I'd got myself into that I wasn't, I didn't see it as, as a really interesting future. And then it was partly, experiment, so both those counts came out pretty well.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:43:22

Were those photos the catalyst for you to say, you know what, maybe I'm not going to go back after my sabbatical? Or what was your work history after that? How'd you Yeah, I, I,

Michael Freeman: 1:43:29

yes, I mean it, certainly took some time, but I had some luck. hawked them around. The funny thing was that, so I'd still live in central London, because I had no idea what to do. I sort of did things that you wouldn't normally do, like I, I rang up the Brazilian embassy and spoke to the cultural attaché and said, look, I've got some nice pictures of the Amazon. And he said, really nice man. And he said, great, actually, that's just what we're looking for. Because, you know, we've been doing all this sort of economic stuff and it'd be nice to have some, something, a bit more sort of appealing, visually. And he put on an exhibition. Wow. Yeah. And he had a, and this is in central London in Mayfair. And then he had a guest list, and he invited, among other people, the picture editor of the Daily Telegraph magazine. And this is when magazines, this is when weekend supplements were new and hot, yeah? The guy came, right? Oh, he gave me work. And then there were two senior editors from Time Life. who was selling a London edit at the time to do book series, and they came and they said, Oh, can we borrow the pictures? so actually it took quite a bit of time, because I went, I went back to work, but I was still, you know, playing around. And a few months later, I got a call from the picture editor of Timeline, And she said, would you like to come along and see what we're doing with the pictures? So, oh, actually, I've more or less forgotten about it. So, after work, I went along and she said, well, we didn't, I didn't call you before because we change our minds a lot. I mean, was that ever true? But, this is her. So, she showed me and I had the cover of. The first book in the series, in the Wild Places series. Oh no, I'm kidding. I had Double Trucks. I had Chateauneuf. And when I went home on the bus that evening, I thought, that's the best. Encouragement I'm never going to get because none of the art, I mean, no art directors at the agency said, Michael, what are you wasting your time for? You need to be a photographer. Nobody said that. So the next day I resigned. Again, a different era. And the agency gave me a leaving present of two weeks work for a major client as a photographer. What? It was, oh, it was a tough world. This was, late Mad Men era, right? It was a tough world, but it was decent.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:46:19

That's incredible. so then, okay. Oh, yes, the pictures were okay.

Michael Freeman: 1:46:22

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:46:23

Yeah, obviously. Yeah Doesn't get much better than that. So then how do you transition from just taking photos into because now you've written I mean, how many books how many books on photography? Have you written?

Michael Freeman: 1:46:35

Oh on photography 70 17 books on for the 77 0 7 0 So how many books altogether? 156 So

Raymond Hatfield: 1:46:48

how do you get to that point at what point do you say you know what taking photos is great But I actually want to share this knowledge with others. How did you get there?

Michael Freeman: 1:46:55

No, no, you don't get that, that's, that's not regular progress, it's something on the side. I do it because I enjoy doing it.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:47:05

The sharing part? The writing part? Is that what you're referring to?

Michael Freeman: 1:47:08

I like books. I like putting books together. So what happened was after quite a number of years, still not enough, to be actually knowledgeable. I had a good relationship with this publisher and they said, look, we want to do a book about photography. Do you do it? You can do it. So yeah, I'll do it. So I did it. It turned out pretty well. And I think in the end it sold three quarters of a million copies. That's not to do with the, excellence of the writing so much as the sales. I mean, you know, the books, particularly illustrated books, where the margins are very small, as are the percentage royalties, incidentally. We're not talking about novels here. There's a big structure of marketing and sales and foreign rights. And that's really, you've got to be with, good company. That's the way it works.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:48:09

So got to say, Michael, you have a number of books, like you've been, I think when I transitioned out of, cinematography into photography, of course, you know, that was the thing I did. I went to libraries, went to, Amazon to look for books. Like, your name has always been, for me, in the top, you know, five books on Amazon on photography.

Michael Freeman: 1:48:29

Hey, who were the other

Raymond Hatfield: 1:48:30

four? Uh, I don't remember who they are. No, no, no. I don't

Michael Freeman: 1:48:33

want the answer to that.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:48:34

Nobody left. Uh, you were right there at the top for sure. Yeah, thanks, then. So, um, I guess, one, I want to know, like, why do you think that is, like, why do you think your books resonate with people so well that they continue to buy books, that they recommend these books to others? and then two, how does that influence you going forward when you make new books?

Michael Freeman: 1:48:55

Well, on the first, I'd like to think, because I do think about the writing a lot, that it's because, um, there's no bullshit. I mean, I really try and avoid that. I also try and avoid writing stuff that's been written by other people before. Why would you want to do that? I mean, unfortunately, now on social media, you can see endless stuff churned out, cut and pasted. What's the point? It's not interesting. So I've always tried to write in a way, like conversation, In other words, direct to, I mean, I like, should we say literature? Yeah. and I, appreciate good writing. I like to talk directly to the other person as an intelligent, interested person. person who's interested in this. So when you write books about, should we say, how to books in some way, then it's important, I think, to not to talk down, not to waffle, sorry, that's probably a non American word, but not to just say, just ramble on. Yeah. And, and it's important to all the time have an idea. I mean, the only words that are worth writing are stuff that comes from your head, not regurgitated from somewhere else. Otherwise, what's the point? So I always have a kind of analytical mind. And I realize that that's a bit unusual for, visual artists, because most people are either visual or they write. Yes. There's only a few that sort of manage to bring them together. So that's how I hope it works.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:50:41

What's interesting is that like, when you have a lifetime's worth of experience in something, and this is something that I struggle with, is that I, for some reason, believe that everybody knows what I know. So it's hard for me, to kind of talk about something to somebody else, because I don't know where they're at, and I just assume that they know what I know, so what do I have to share for them, but for you to have created the amount of information that you have on photography for photographers, that's a big thing and you continue to do it in, like, in such a high quality way. To say that, like, you're just polite about it, I really think that you continue to put in a ton of work because, your latest book on black and white. I have a question about that because you had just said there, you're like, I'm not going to write about what other people have written about, and there's a million other books on black and white. So is it a perspective thing that you mean that you don't want to talk about what everybody else has talked about?

Michael Freeman: 1:51:31

Well, I try not to. I want to talk about the things that I find interesting, and it's often about ideas. So, aesthetically, black and white's really, really interesting because it was photography until two things happened. Color film became widely available and magazines Started printing in color, the two things went together. And interestingly, what I've been thinking about this more recently, is that the color that we shot, so when I started, basically, was the early 70s. And that was just the time when color was what everyone wanted, editorially. And what we all shot was, transparency film. Nobody shot negs. The reason nobody shot negs editorially, well a few people did, but they were just being difficult, um, is that you can't edit, negatives. I mean, my life in photography has been very, particularly because I was in advertising, I didn't want to go back into advertising. I wanted a more glamorous life, which was shooting for magazines. and traveling the world and doing picture stories. of course, I became very familiar with the magazine editorial world. And I'm talking about, picture stories rather than, the managed studio shoots, okay? It's the reportage. So, what that meant, and every magazine, I'm like, Books, Smithsonian, Geographic, Sunday Times. You're in a picture room. In the picture room, around the side with the walls where you pinned up the layers, which were always in black and white, right? In the middle was a large table. No seats, everyone stood. So it's a big table, and it was a light table. So, you know, this large glowing table, and stacks and stacks of slides, and, you know, people would slide them across, da da da da da da da da, like that. And what it meant was, it's a different way of shooting altogether. So, what I'm getting around, rather lengthily, the point is that the shooting meant It stopped the minute you pressed that shutter release. You didn't do anything else to it. It came back. When you came back from a trip, a bike came, you got a bike, a delivery bike, and they took the, all the rolls, and they brought them back later in the day, and that was it. You'd shot what you'd shot. of course, that, I mean, color transparency is then a segue into digital. In the early part of this century. Yeah, around the early two thousands. So what happened then was that, so you have three periods of photography. You have black and white only, then, at least from, in my world, then there was color. Very rigid, all about the shock. And now, you can do anything with it. Meaning digital. Yeah. Yeah. And you can anticipate. And you've got raw files and obviously, nothing was much good in like 2003, but, now, for heaven's sake. Right. 50 megapixels It's wild. Pro raw images. There's a ton of information in there. So, black and white, where did black and white fit into this? So black and white, instead of being what everyone did, because that was all there was, to being elective, black and white is now something you do because you want to do it. So that's a, it's a different route back to this early idea of photography. Yeah. And I find that really interesting, because in the very early days, well, obviously there were many notable photographers who did heroic work in the darkroom and knew when they were shooting what they could do. I mean, you just look at anything about Eugene Smith, I mean, he, I never met him. But he was certainly a hero of mine, and he had his own ideas about what you do. I mean, he kind of fooled around, if you like. I mean, you wouldn't get, past, the door of World Press Photo these days, but the idea was you took a shot knowing that you'd be doing something with that shot. You knew how it would want, how you wanted it to be. So the negative was really just one step.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:56:24

As a show called the beginner photography podcast, there's a lot of listeners today who are brand new to photography and this world is still very new to them and there's a big push to like record in raw, have all of the data possible, and then. You can explore all the possibilities after the fact, right, within editing. Well,

Michael Freeman: 1:56:45

it's absolutely true. That's not what I like to do.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:56:48

Yeah.

Michael Freeman: 1:56:49

Look, photography has room for everyone in it. and there's lots of kinds of photography that I really don't like. Yeah. But, I appreciate that people do it because they like it. So, it's not for me to say. You shouldn't do that. People do what they like. but my idea has always been and it's all of this is very much connected with personality. So my idea is probably informed by the fact that I've been 50 years of professional is that you should know what you're doing from the start. Yeah. Okay. There was always going to be surprises. And some of them will be lucky surprises. But I'm not a fan of saying, well let's just take a picture, any picture, and then we just go and work on it in the darkroom and make it nice. Yeah. I don't think so. To me, you should be thinking when you're taking the picture when you're planning to take a picture all the way through. So my view of modern digital photography is that the process of photography stretches from set preparing to shoot. Depending what kind of shooting you're doing, but being aware of in the street, being alert to possibilities, not to the point of pressing the button, but to the final delivery, whether it's a print or it's on screen and good processing. Or printing. Yeah, the idea is to do the best for a good photograph anyway, but to bring out the best qualities, the ones that you were hoping for. It becomes a, stretched out process, but it's still a process that begins with the idea of. That's an interesting picture. That can be a picture. Whichever kind of shooting you do.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:58:41

How do we get there, though? How do we get from I don't know how to use this camera, I'm just hoping for the best, hopefully I'll press this shutter enough that I'll get a photo that I like, to you see the photo in your head before you take the photo and you know exactly how it's going to turn out. How do we get there?

Michael Freeman: 1:58:59

First, the technology is, it gets better all the time and easier all the time. So the camera will generally, will do, will do it by default, it will give you a workable picture. There's now these things called autofocus, newfangled ideas. So you'll get a picture. So that's less of a problem. There shouldn't be any kind of, uh, what do I do with this? You pick it up and shoot, you know, phones. I mean, that's another thing. These, yes, I love my hassle. Blood. This is the real future. The phone, it doesn't have to be in a phone, but it's something that is extremely easy to use. It's with you all the time. And what that should be doing is making you less concerned about the fiddly bits and more concerned about what do you see? What's interesting? That's really why I was in about 15 years ago, I decided I wanted to write a book about composition because to be honest, almost no one had. It seemed a bit weird to me. Yeah. Also, I know money. Professional community. And it's one of the things that photographers really don't like talking about. But, organizing the stuff in the frame. Framing it. Da da da da da da da da. That's something. You don't need, you know, all the technicalities to do. You've got a frame, and the camera that surrounds it, and they do now can take that picture. That's what becomes one of the most important things. Assuming you've already got an idea. you know, whether it's, well, I'm going to shoot in the street today, I'm going to see, get a picture of this person, you know, some interactions, whatever. Then, it's very much, to a large extent, it's about how you identify the things you're going to photograph. called Subjects, and how you organize them in the frame.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:01:00

That's a hard thing though.

Michael Freeman: 2:01:01

It is a hard thing.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:01:02

I think it's a hard thing for new photographers to understand because they've taken photos all their lives. They've taken photos all their lives and never thought about anything like the background or where to place their subject within the frame. They're just pointing and shooting. So now that we have this tool, where we can control these things, it becomes an additional layer, right? As you said, like, not only do we have to figure out all these fiddly bits, but now also we have to figure out, like, what's in the frame. Well, I would

Michael Freeman: 2:01:30

say you strip out the rest. That becomes easier, and concentrate on that. Well, other part of this, of learning how to do this, well, there's two parts to it. There's something to reject and avoid at all costs. And that's people telling you what makes a good composition. I do try very hard to say not to put too much judgment into this. And I, absolutely insist that in any creative activity, Whether it's writing, playing music, or photography, the whole idea of a set of rules is anathema, right? We're not doing engineering here. We're not building a bridge. So rules are designed to make something happen the same time every time. And in engineering, you really do need that. But that's the last thing you want. in any creative activity. Rule of thirds, for instance. If everyone did it, it'd be really boring, wouldn't it? Sure. You know, it's that kind of thing. So, it's a bit of a tightrope to walk if you're writing about this and trying to help people. But the one, and you say, look, if you do this, certain things will happen in the mind of the viewer. Or, in your own mind, and looking at it, it may just look more comfortable, the arrangement. Right. but maybe you want to be a bit different. Maybe you want to be a bit edgy and do stuff, you know, that's, that some people are not going to like. Or maybe most people aren't going to like. But it's gonna make, it's, you know, you, you can do what you like. That's my problem is, suggesting, but trying to avoid dictating, of course. Anyway, that's the negative side. That's the side you have to reject the side to embrace is, it's really one of the simplest things in the world and every professional photographer, I know does it all the time, is to look at. other people's photographs. I mean, I don't know a photographer who, within his or her area, doesn't know who the greats are. The greats from the past, the ones coming up. They know, because the more you absorb, the more you're able to form an opinion. You're saying, well, I like that. That's good. I like what that guy does. So then you say, okay, fine, look at what that guy does or did. What makes it hang together? Why do I like it? So anyone can do that. And that's why, in my view, we're all beginners. We should all be beginners. In the sense that, yes, accumulate all the knowledge, all the ideas, all the opinions, but the minute you start to think you know it, you're lost. You have to, even at my age, I have to try and surprise myself. Because otherwise it's not going to be very interesting. I mean, who wants to go out and take pictures that they planned already? I mean, I find that really kind of boring. Sure. Commercially, there are always surprises. Of course, they don't come when you want. And they, like London buses, they probably come two or three at a time and then there's not another one by half an hour. But you have to be open to surprises. You can do this a beginner or somebody who's experienced. Anyone can do it. Right? We're all used to looking at screens, at pictures, at movies. You know, we've been cinematographer. I mean, it's a different way of putting images together, but some cinematographers or, you know, or directors have a kind of eye that is more similar to a still photographer's eye. Stanley Kubrick, for example. None of my heroes. and you can see from the way that many of his frames are set up, that, that would have a photographer would do, a still photographer would do. That, I think, is very important, is to study pictures made by people, and you can make it easy for yourself, the ones that are well known, okay, that's a good start, right? Because if they're notable, in modern terminology, then, at least you're not gonna be wasting your time looking.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:05:57

Do you have any tricks for looking at somebody else's work? And not falling into the trap of comparing yourself, because that's a big issue today with just the amount of photos that we can consume. Have you heard, have you heard that this is It's a

Michael Freeman: 2:06:10

good, you know, if it's a good, photographer, it's a good photographer, you're going to find it quite difficult to take pictures like that. And there's a tradition in art, in painting, which goes all the way back in Western art, in Chinese art, where you learn by copying the masters. Now, it's rather different with painting. Because you could take your time, you've got it there, but you learn how the strokes go. And you practice that until you kind of got into it. So there's a lot, very common now to say, oh, you shouldn't copy, da da da. It's damn hard to copy a good picture. Yeah. Good photograph. Very hard. Now what you can do, of course, is set your sights very low, and a lot of people do this now on picture sharing social media, and they do a very genre specific kind of picture. Say, neutral density waterscapes. Yes. Yeah, okay. Now, I mean, I find these very interesting to look at. Well, interesting. No, I find it philosophically interesting, because When they were new, when only a few people had done these, they were interesting. But with volume, they all look the same. The problem is that if you set your sights low, and aim for a very technique focused kind of photography, then the work's all gonna look the same, or very similar. The technique will overwhelm the personality of the work. And the photographer,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:07:52

the technique will overwhelm the personality of the photographer. So to avoid that from happening, we need to introduce more of our personality,

Michael Freeman: 2:08:01

avoid the low hanging fruit, basically, and aim for something a little bit more special, or more where you have more feelings about

Raymond Hatfield: 2:08:12

it.

Michael Freeman: 2:08:14

It's, this is not a foolproof solution, but the thing that always helps. Is really having a very sound knowledge of the world of photography. you can't go to enough exhibitions. There's plenty of sites on the internet. To go on, look at what people are doing, whether it's, a survey of one photographer's past work. So it's not that hard to find good photographers within the areas that you enjoy. Which might be reportage, might be street photography, might be fashion. people, the good people are known. So if you take your time to look, I mean, I do it. Where do I look? Okay. I like looking at the Magnum website, for example. No, there's no bad Magnum photographers, really. And a huge number of photographers, you know, in history. Yeah. I look at lens culture. I'm not plugging them. It's just that they're not quite as easy to look through as it used to be. But, another one is, well, all magazines have. you know, they've got some kind of photo section. So, if you like, I mean, National Geographic, have a lot of, social media presence. Of course. Yeah. Life Magazine now. you know, if you go on to Google, is it Google Books? There's some deal where you can download every issue of Life Magazine, including these ones. Yeah. Wow. You can do everything, right from the very start. Yeah. I think it's Google Books that does it. And then also, there are these aggregated gallery and auction sites, like artsy. net. And what these people do is, they aggregate, galleries from around the world, uh, And options, right? So you just type in the name of the photographer and it'll show you all the stuff.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:10:21

Really,

Michael Freeman: 2:10:22

who's selling it? Yeah. So I wanted to look at, uh, I've got this up on the screen here. I'm interested in certain periods of history. So I'm looking here, Alexander Rochenko, who was Russian, very geometric, unusual angles. So he's got a picture here from 1935. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:10:43

So when you go on sites like this, you go on to, are you using it to explore and open up your mind No. Of different photographers or dive deeper into one photographer's work?

Michael Freeman: 2:10:53

Well, both. I mean, you know, I'll kind of like, I have an idea. Come look at Chenko. Not I, I remember one or two things he's done.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:11:00

Mm-Hmm.

Michael Freeman: 2:11:00

because I wanna see what else he did.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:11:02

I see, I like that idea.

Michael Freeman: 2:11:03

and this is all black and white that I'm looking at Consider,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:11:06

yeah. It sounds to me like, when it comes to learning photography, one of the most important things is to just immerse yourself in the technical details, to learn the tool as much as possible. No? Go on, I was wrong there? Well, yeah, but how long is that

Michael Freeman: 2:11:21

going to take?

Raymond Hatfield: 2:11:22

Right, no, exactly, yeah, I mean, it could, technically it could take forever. You know?

Michael Freeman: 2:11:27

It's not the most important thing. You need to be, you need to be competent, absolutely. And also, depending on the kind of work you do, then obviously you're always learning. I mean, in doing, I mean, I spent a lifetime of doing mainly repertory also do studio work, mainly repertory and there you really have to be alert and it means you your camera and that this goes back to the days of film, right? Camera has to be really an extension of your hand and the more you use it, the less you have to think about it. Sure, sure. But of course it's essential, but it's a kind of that's taken as understood that you will be learning how to operate the machine and gradually getting better and better, but that is not what is going to improve your photography. It'll help you get a picture fast enough so that you capture the moment before it's over. But. Behind all this is much more important is what you think is going to make a good picture. And again, there's room for everyone here. It might be that you, you're really, what really interesting is the expression on people's faces or gestures, or it may be you're interested in the pure graphics of a picture.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:12:52

That's what's so hard about photography. There's so much. It's all over the place. So, this is going to sound, super, cliche, I guess. But if you had to tell, a brand new photographer, how to be successful as a photographer, maybe not commercially or, you know, anything like that, but from personal How to satisfy themselves. How to satisfy themselves. What would you tell them?

Michael Freeman: 2:13:10

Well, it's not, a single thing. It's not a, secret of the universe answer. It's a continuing process. So, first understand there are no magic bullets in photography. Why? If there were, it wouldn't be worth doing. So, you have to commit yourself. You have to learn to form an opinion about what's good and what's not, what's interesting. You have to, on the one hand, keep practicing with the equipment, learn how it works, learn how to use it seamlessly, right? You have to immerse yourself in the world of photography to know what the people who are in your world, your part of that world of photography, whether that's like some wildlife photography or, street or something like that, what they're doing. You need to know where the bar is on every kind of, and you have to do it, you got to go out and do it, or you may have to go in and do it in the studio. Of

Raymond Hatfield: 2:14:16

course, but practice is key.

Michael Freeman: 2:14:19

Also realizing every, every kind of worthwhile photography, whether it's in the studio and managed by a team of people to an inch of its death. There's always small surprises, and they can be big surprises. If a picture is entirely predictable, it's not going to be that interesting. It may be what the client needs, but, I don't do fashion photography. And for that reason, I'm interested in fashion totally, in looking at it. And you can see where some moment has happened, or some gesture, or the photographer's like, Hey, why don't we just do that? Change the lighting here or that. And it becomes a little bit more special. And maybe it becomes more special. I see. If you do those things, you're on the way. you're on the journey.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:15:10

That's all that we can hope for. That's perfect. Well, Michael, we're at the end of our time. I cannot believe how fast this time went. For those listening who are thinking to themselves, This was great. I want to learn more about this world of photography. I want to learn more about Michael and what he's doing. Where's the best place for us to find you online?

Michael Freeman: 2:15:27

Google, I guess.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:15:29

Next up is my interview with photo editor, as in the editor, who's in charge of photography for a publication and not like somebody who just uses Lightroom and Photoshop, Karen Williams, who is going to teach you how to develop your unique visual style by crafting a distinct artistic look that will set you apart. You're gonna learn the importance of dedicating time to practice and master just one specific aspect of photography at a time. Whether it's a particular type of shot or just going deeper into learning your camera settings. Karen also is going to guide you on how to create images that align with your style as well as your clients needs. So that you can create a portfolio that is cohesive, visually consistent, and speaks the language of your target market. Karen, I want to know, when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Karen Williams: 2:16:20

Well to go back to before the important role. I didn't know it at the time, but I think I became around age 7 the unofficial family photographer because my dad literally taught me like this is the 80s like early 90s this old camera film and he was like all you do is just dip dip and then you focus like this and then you do that and then I started taking pictures. Now again, it wasn't like oh my god, I'm gonna be a photographer. No, it was just like every time we would go somewhere family vacations I was a photographer. The running joke is if you looked at our picture albums, you would think, oh, it's a family of three. Cause I was taking the photo. In fact, it wasn't like in the day, like now where people are like, Hey, here's my phone. Can you, Oh, okay, cool. Cause everyone just knows, to do that. No, I would just be like, nope. And I was very protective. My mom would be like, Hey, can I like, no, only I can frame it. And I, again, I'm not thinking I'm going to be a photographer. I'm thinking I'm going to be a basketball player, I'm going to be a volleyball player. I sucked at sports. I was okay. I was, like, mid. Then I got into playing the violin. Then I thought I was, again, not good. I thought I was going to be a meteorologist. I was going to be all these different things other than a photographer. while this is all going through, middle school and high school, any event we went to, anything, I would take the pictures. It wasn't until high school, literally my last kind of quarter there, where I took a black and white photography class, and it was in a janitor's closet. And the magic of like, and I think because I wasn't developing the film, we developed the film and then we printed the prints. That's when I was like, Ooh, this is what I want to do. I want to be a fine art artist. Now again, I had no idea about, being a fine art artist. I just knew, this is what I wanted to do, and I wanted to go to school for photography from there.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:18:07

What was it about that power of the print? What was It about that whole situation that, made you say like, wait a second, no more basketball, no more meteorology, nothing like that. This is the thing.

Karen Williams: 2:18:18

It was the magic of, I think, just printing of developing my film, like, ooh, okay, look, you just, you put it in, and then you shake up the canisters, and then look, you hang it out, look, you see the picture, just seeing the magic, that the chemicals were like, oh my god, there's, that's the picture I took, and then, okay, you got the contact sheets, ooh, I want this one, like, picking which ones you want to do, and then the magic of, you expose on this, special piece of paper, you're in the lights, In the dark room and you're putting it through the, you know, the developer and then you put it in the cleaner and then you got into the fixer and like, it's just the magic of creating. I think it was just the tactile experience of creation of, I was taking the photo. And for a long time, it was just kind of automation in the sense of someone else was just doing it. But then when I did it myself, and I was like, wow, I saw it, took it, and then I developed it, and then created, a physical thing with it. And that's where I was like, Ooh, I want to learn more about that. I want to do that.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:19:23

So how did that manifest? Did you go to college for it or what was the next step? I

Karen Williams: 2:19:29

break a little bit, or like a year and a half because I had graduated early. I did like 10 credits so I could just, and I was sick of school. But then eventually I was still looking at photography schools and I ended up going to a small kind of private college called St. Edwards in Austin, Texas, because it was that or UT kind of back then day. But I was like, With UT, I fell in a trope of oh, so many people, in an auditorium and I'm going to be lost in a sea of people where St. Edward's was like very small at the time. It's huge now, but it was very small. It was like maybe seven people in the whole program or something like that. And so, I proceeded, and again, my intention was, at this time, because I did not know any better, I didn't know how to research, Google was kinda something around, like, you didn't just Google, what careers can you have? I was going in there, and the premise of, I want to be a fine art, photographer, and I thought it was so easy. I know, sorry, this, the naivete. You know, forgive

Raymond Hatfield: 2:20:29

was there too, I

Karen Williams: 2:20:29

I just thought, Oh, I could just take a picture. Not understanding. This is why you go to school so you start understanding, but I just like, okay, after a break, I was bored and I wanted to go back to school and I was okay, we're doing this and I'm going to be a fine art photographer and I'm gonna sell my print for 10, 000.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:20:46

So easy, right? So

Karen Williams: 2:20:47

Yeah. So you don't have to show my work in gallery. So easy. Yeah. So that was kind of the next process. And then it going to school, learning more about the process, learning about the greats like I am forever an old school. I still love prints. I love seeing photographers bring in a print for portfolio. I still love seeing the process of photography done and I feel grateful because. of the program I went to undergrad, it was still wet. And it was literally the beginning stages of digital. I did a digital one and two classes and we were like, what, Photoshop three at this time? This was no cloud. There wasn't an Adobe cloud. This is where you bought it and then you could own it. And then maybe in a couple of years I'll upgrade if I want to pay that money to, you know, the next box. Exactly. But I always say I'm so grateful that I learned on a wet, dark room because when I went to Dinnacle, I understood the principles of dodging and burning and color correcting, And stuff like that to apply because I feel like fast forward now, a lot of photographers are trying to get like away with, oh, I just put a filter on it and not understanding why are you putting a filter on it? Why this aesthetic versus it just looks cool. We're taking an alternative, kind of process class where you can be like, well, for this work, I feel like this works the best of how I want to present it. And this is the reasons why. So I always I'm grateful that I did go and get my education to understand, how to critique work, how to speak about my work in a different way. Not saying you have to do it, because there's a lot of great photographers who are self taught, but for me, I'm a nerd. So I needed school, and I liked that learning all that stuff. I just want to put it out there for other photographers. You do not have to go to school. I just recommend if you take, you do a self taught, always go and buy some history books to learn the history and to learn about critique and to learn how to speak about your work. Because I think that is a vital piece of skill to learn.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:22:52

Obviously, so you went to school. And I, completely agree with you. I've shared this before I went to school and after going through school, that was the question that I got the most, right? It was like, is this even worth it? Obviously I went to film school, not school for photography, but it was like, it's worth it for the networking aspect, it's worth it for a structured plan. If you are somebody who, is a self starter and knows what it is that you need, then by all means, you don't need a degree in this, go for it, but if you need a little bit more help, if you need that structure, if you need some guidance, I highly recommend school. Um, yeah. I want to know, what happened next, right? You went to school, you want to become a fine art photographer. what happened? Because today, the path, changed at some point. I want to know how you got to where you are today.

Karen Williams: 2:23:36

After I graduated with my BFA, I still no idea what I was going to do, because what was taught really in school, or what you saw, was either you were going to be a photographer, or a fine art photographer. I suck at studio. I suck at lighting. Like, I knew I probably wasn't going to be a good photographer. Okay. I just knew, but I absorbed the information. I knew what a good image was. sell that street photography that was my jam and I always liked it. It was like a Walker Evans and me, a Lee Freelander and me, the Gordon Parks and me, where I just loved the 35 mil because it was so small. Like I hate it four by five. I love the large prints you get. I love eight by 10. I just don't like carrying that thing and it made you have to slow down and I didn't. I just wanted to be able to pick up my camera document and succeed. But after I graduated, I still kind of didn't know because it was like, okay, am I going to be a photographer then? Or am I working in a studio? So for me, the only viable path I saw was teaching. It's like, if I'm going to be a teacher, And if I'm going to be in since I started school a little later than usual, and I want to kind of speed up the educational kind of process. And I was like, okay, if I'm going to teach, I want to teach college level. Usually you need an MFA. So I went straight to grad school. Again, you don't have to go to grad school. This was just kind of like, what my thinking was back in the day, because I didn't know any other options of how I got to where I am today. So my thing was okay. Okay. I'll be all in that once because I know if I wouldn't have went to grad school when I did, if I would have went straight into the workforce, I would not have gone to grad school. And I think I don't regret any decision I've made because it's got me where I need to be. But I just jumped to grad school. Again, with grad school, you just learn more of the technique. You're just continuing to hone your craft. it was a great community. I went to Scat Savannah College chart design, both the Savannah and Atlanta campuses, and that was a great experience. It wasn't until literally after I graduated from SCAT with my nm FA in 2008, I have to point this out, 2008, this, keep that in mind, 2008, I did, I was lucky enough to get an internship at Inc. Publishing in London, and so. I wanted to go back to London. I had did a study abroad in my time and I wanted to go back to London. I was like, oh, I loved it. I was like, I want to go. I was fortunate to get it and a month long scholarship and I graduated and the university I stayed at. let me stay there. They were like, you have to be a student. I was like, I just graduated. I had the funds because I had left over low money. It was like, I have to pay that back anyway, so let me just use it to that. Ink Publication introduced me to the world of where I am now, of being a photo editor, a photo producer, working with publications and eventually brands. It is, I think still, a kind of A custom publication and when I was there was specifically for like European airliners. So those magazines you see in the back, in your flight, that's what they were doing mostly for the European airlines and a few that I think they had, United as well. I don't know if they still have United stuff, but those were the things they were working on. So that's where I learned about. Oh, okay. So you're telling me I don't have to be a photographer. There's a world where I can work for photographers. I'm doing photo research. I'm essentially just doing logistics, helping still create amazing images, but I don't have to be the 1 behind the camera. That was. I want to be a photo editor. It was a perfect world because I didn't necessarily want to be a photographer. I always say, I couldn't do the photo hustle of marketing yourself all the time, going through the freelance life. It was like the perfect thing. Like I like doing the logistics. I like the production part of it, but then I can be on set. I can still create the imagery you're seeing, be part of that creation and not just necessarily be the sole creator behind the camera. And so after that month I came home, I was like, I'm going to be a photo editor. Let me start emailing people. Okay. Everyone's in New York. Everyone. Okay. Let me start not understanding how to get into the industry, but I just blindly. Okay. Then 2008 fall happened. And then the economy crash. And then the bloodbath of publishing. Yeah, that was the year I decided I wanted to go into publishing. And the editorial in magazines. And I was like, I'm gonna be a photo editor. After that, it was a slow, couple of years. Where I'm working at a cupcake place. I'm doing some internship at a museum. I'm trying to get the experience, because back in the day, entry level was like two to three years experience. Fortunately, I was able to then get an internship with Austin Monthly Magazine. I lived in San Antonio. So it was like an hour drive on the 35 and so I did that drive and I had to explain to my parents why are you doing this for free? And then you have to bring your own computer. I'm like, no, this is how the industry work I have to and it networking because that's how it kind of started figuring out the industry It's who you know getting those references and building up my portfolio to show people this is what I've done, like spread wise. Here's the shoots I've produced, or here's what I photo research, to get that kind of social proof.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:28:43

I'm just gonna say, Isn't it funny how not far away 2008 seems, and yet how completely different of a world it was, just in the world of, photography, but also, an entire crash, at the same time, again, I've shared this story before, it's like, that was the last time all the actors and the writers went on strike. I was also right when I graduated from film school. So I was like, I guess I'm not working. I don't know what to do. And that's what prompted me to pick up a camera rather than a cinema camera, I guess. And then get into photography. So, I'm right there with you. And again, it feels so long ago, but also not long ago at all. It's so strange, but, I love this concept because I know that there's a lot of people listening just like you, they love photography, they love creating powerful images, they love seeing powerful images, they love being just around, because there's an energy around powerful photos. But not everybody, can create at such a high level, the type of photography that is, I don't even know how to say this the technical ability that is required to bring out that emotion in people. And I think what's sad is that so many people, and I'll be honest, myself included, I go to so many weddings, and I think to myself, I could do so much better than this. And I look at a hundred other photographers and I'm like, they're way better photographers than me. But I think the problem comes when new photographers say to themselves. Well, I guess that's it. I guess if I can't achieve this level, what am I even doing here? And then they just completely give up on photography altogether. But I love how you're sharing that there's other paths in photography that don't necessarily require you to be the one taking the photos. So for those listening right now who are like, wait a second, tell me more about this. Can you tell me more about what is the job of a photo editor What is the job that you're hired to do? Because again, many new photographers may think that it's just, you're the one who does all the work in the light room, but I know that that's not the case. So can you share a little bit more about what's involved?

Karen Williams: 2:30:38

Of course. It's like a lot of things. When I talk about photo editor, it is, thrown around two different ways. It is thrown away as a photo editor, as like a photo retoucher, because some people will just use that term because it technically they are editing the photo. So that makes sense. But in, I would say photo editor in terms of like how I'm about to describe it, it's used more in the publication editorial realm, where in brands and maybe advertising, it might be like called photo art director or something like that, or maybe a photo producer. And even that goes into different kinds of words where you could be a photo producer and still be doing art direction at the same time or be straight logistical, and being a photo editor like at a publication. So this is kind of the context. I'm speaking it into, is you're a lot of things, and when I get into it, I'll let you know, but basically you are helping and it depends you can be in a team of five people or more, or you could be a photo editor one. I've been in both situations, but basically you are helping to bring to life the visuals of a magazine, whether that is through photo research of looking through stock sites or archives, say, we were doing, a retrospective of all the presidents in the world, you're not going to find that on iStock or Getty or whatever. That's what a photo researcher. that's a tail sign of a good photo researcher where you're going into the archives or you're going into, oh, I know this photographer has in their collection, or they've shot this person and seeing how much they want it to license it for. You're doing photo production. So you're handed, hey, we're going to shoot the mayor, or we're going to shoot this police officer, or we're going to shoot this business owner. Okay. First, you're going to deciding kind of like collaborating with the art director, creative director, the writer, probably. And then the editor in chief of like, here's the direction and vibe we want to go with. Maybe it's like in studio. Maybe it's on location. This is the kind of creative, direction we want to go, getting buy in, getting a consensus, and then finding the right photographer or artist. Maybe it's a photo illustration, so maybe you're working with design of they're working on the illo part, and then you're tasked with the photo part, or you could be doing both, depending on the circumstances. And then again, photo production, you're setting up the photoshoot, you're reaching out to the subjects, or whatever, you are, okay, what day and time are you available. What day and time the photographer, making sure schedules matching, putting together the Photoshop list. Sometimes you're going on set, the location to make sure, you know, your photo art directing and making sure everything is like going smoothly, or maybe you're remotely doing it. Maybe you're not. And you're like making sure you're communicating with the photographer throughout the day, throughout the shoot. So if something comes up, you're able to troubleshoot it. Always being alert, getting the high resin, making the selections. If photo research, retouching is involved, you're helping to facilitate that, making sure credits, the proper credits, how it's laid out, there's so many little things and I would say part time lawyer and making sure that you're like, Hey, where did that image come from? Google. That's fine. But I think the Mona Lisa is going to be like, no, you can't use this. right here, without permission. We may be sued. let me go and see if I can find a start or license it so we know we are covered. And then I always say the bonus therapist, because sometimes you have to deal with meltdowns and stuff. And basically, I always say team photo for life. One of the hearts and souls of like, I think a department because there's so much we have to do in capital. This is just a little piece of what I'm telling you what you have to do with there's just so much nuances

Raymond Hatfield: 2:34:12

There's a lot. It sounds like a whole lot.

Karen Williams: 2:34:14

When photographers from the other side want to come to this side I always say it is a different game. This is not a photography job sometimes you do shoot photography if it depends if it's probably like a smaller publication or maybe a newspaper where you're kind of doing both, but for most times you are behind the desk. I always say you either love this job or you hate this job, because it's a lot of just sitting around the desk and I think the glamour for me. Of why I went to be like, Oh, I'm going to travel. I'm going to be able to do in these fancy shoes, go to Paris, go. And then I started traveling for shoots and started. No, you're still working eight hour days and you're on the shoot, but also you still have to do your job. Like you still got to do that on top of that. So that turns into like 16 hour days of having to stay on top of other work, but then also be on set. I always say the glamour goes away once you go to your one intense shoot and you're like, yeah, maybe I saw the eye for Tyra while we were passing by, but you're not going to have time to, sightsee and all that stuff. But for me, I love it. I just love that hustle and grind. It could be the worst shoot gone wrong, but I'm like, okay, let's do it again. We're going to do it better this time, right? It's like, one of those things, you either love it or you hate it.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:35:29

Where does that come from? Why do you love the chaos?

Karen Williams: 2:35:32

I come from two military parents. I'm an early riser. I love structure, I love dissonance, even though it's like a chaotic world. And again, it's good and bad, because it's like, you shouldn't want to be work yourself to the bone and then almost be to burn out, which I've been in burnout like a couple of times in my life. And it's like the nature of the beast of just being in this industry of kind of like, okay, we just get it done. You just get it done. But again, like I said. either love or hate it, and for me, I just love it. I think at the end of the day, I get the magazine, or the publication, or you see it on a billboard, and you're like, I helped create that. That's a photographer, you see something the first time you create it, and it's on a billboard, or like at a, feature, or the cover, and you're like, It was worth it. it's hard to explain because it's just like the rush of getting that shot. When you know you had the shot, you're like, this is a shot and it's just worth it. it's a hard feeling to describe, but for me, that's why I come more and more and more. Again, there's toxicity, kind of everywhere you go, but it's just like how you handle it. And for me it's like at the end of the day, if I'm loving what I'm doing, the team I'm working with, the other stuff kind of just prefers away. Mm-Hmm.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:36:43

Yeah. can relate to that. but I wanna know, so One of the main jobs here is that when you get a brief, when you know what is needed, you have to go out and get it done. And sometimes that involves hiring a photographer to capture the images. So you see not only a lot of photographers, but you see a ton of photographers work. So I guess the first question is in a situation where you get some sort of brief or you need creative, delivered, How do you start? Do you start looking at a bunch of portfolios? Do photographers come to you? Do you already know the photographers you want to work with, who you want to work with? How does that process work?

Karen Williams: 2:37:33

And so I would just start gathering first, kind of like just searching, Who are like favorite photographers of mine? Who are photographers I want to work with? Then, it's like a layer of, getting recommendation from other photo editors and producers. Who do you recommend? And then also meeting photographers as well. So it's this never ending of collecting of kind of resources in a sense of my Rolodex and knowing that, oh, I love this photographer. Not right for the job, but when I get a job where I'm like, okay that's gonna be the right creative brief for that bill. I'm gonna reach out to that person. When I'm always trying to put together a list of photographers I want to work with, it's always like the first is matching the brief. And I sometimes have a wild card in there where it's kind of the opposite because I will also pitch like, Hey, I was kind of thinking, maybe trying something like this, right. 99%, it'd be no, but you know what I mean? But for me, it's a mixture of all those kinds of things of like past bookmarks that I might've been like, Hey, I want to work with this person to, Oh, I just met this person in a portfolio view. Ooh, I would love to start, work with them and referrals. just depends on the brief. Mm hmm.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:38:42

Yeah. And that makes sense. That was a great answer. How, do you determine, who is right for the job? Because, I'm trying to get in the head of the listeners right now who are thinking, Ooh, maybe I'd like to travel to Paris and like do this thing. How do I get here? So I guess, let me frame this question here. Are photographers trying to, show you work that they think will work for a specific brief or are they even involved at this point before you are reaching out to photographers? And if so, what are you looking for in their work?

Karen Williams: 2:39:13

First, reaching out comes after, a discussion with the team. So first, I will get the brief. And then I'm discussing with the team members who's involved, right? And then we're coming to a consensus. And I want to put out there, usually we're not the sole decision makers as photo editors, we're working in a team and depending on like editorial more, each side is collaborative, but sometimes in brands, it's like the creative department is kind of like an internal marketing team. Agency kind of marketing. So here's a team and here's our budget. So they're kind of like, say, we lean to this will be, favored because, hey, they are putting in the funds to fund this. Right? Nothing, but they lean on our expertise. So we come to a consensus and then I'm looking at for photographers portfolios that are curated to this. And I want to put out to photographers why having a great curated portfolio that is speaking the language to the brands and publications you want to work with is so important.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:40:11

How do we do that?

Karen Williams: 2:40:12

So I always say when you're looking at your portfolio first, you have to kind of figure out, you know who you are as a photographer because we do not want copycats. We're always looking for a photographer that has a unique guy we're never trying to look for a photographer who shoot the same because each creative brief is different one might be like we want it all in studio and high key art, high key light, or the next one might be, okay, we're going outside on a hike and we want natural light, and that's two different kind of masquerades. And so. I see a lot of tutorials where photographers are trying to play it safe and be generalist, and those kind of go at the bottom of the list because I'm looking for something highly specific usually most of the time. And I want to see a mastery. I want to see a carefully curated portfolio that I can show to different people and keep in mind these different people on the team may not be visually in depth, as me where I could see the potential, maybe, and there may be like a couple of it, but I see enough that I'm like, I feel confident that attire, but someone might be turned off, no, I don't get it. And it's just a quick yes or no. first, know who you are as a photographer. Define your own visual style. What makes you you. I always say it's better that people are reaching out to you because they like your vibe. And they're like, we want to work with you. And we want what you do applied to whatever we want you to shoot. You know, knowing that you always you're going to work within there's, seeing a back so creatives, and stuff like that, but they're not hiring you to be like, oh, we like your work now. 180 do this.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:41:47

Sure, sure,

Karen Williams: 2:41:49

Then curate it to that language. So if you want to shoot high in luxury, I'm working for Tiffany's. I'm going to be looking for high end luxury in that portfolio. It can't be having no broken links. Well, just in general, no broken links. It needs to load fast. Golden rules of website. No broken links. Needs to load fast. appropriately with awesome images. Need to know a location and contact email. You can have a form in an email but don't have a form because we like to feel like we're reaching out to real people Sorry and back to the question, but that's what i'm always looking for first it's like that portfolio. I want to feel confident that you know how to do What you're showing me inside now, so if something goes wrong on set A to C? Okay. B. Okay, then it works. C. If I'm seeing a bunch of high pocketing, kind of like, different types of looks, no consistency of overall visual look, that's kind of a pass for me. I should know kind of 95 percent what I'm going to get, knowing there's going to be change.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:42:55

Of course, that's, I think something very difficult for new photographers to understand. So I'm hoping, I can ask a question here. That's going to help wrap our minds around this, which is, many photographers today, just myself included, I might shoot a portrait of my kid, my neighbors might want some family photos. My daughter has softball. I'll go out there and take some photos of that as well. We might go on hikes, but then also sometimes I like to get a little fancy with stuff and maybe do some product shots. That's a lot, right? There's a lot of different things in there. And even in, your example, you might be looking for luxury, you might be looking for high key. You might be looking for just nature, like going out, how do we show visual consistency or what does visual consistency look like over a range of different images?

Karen Williams: 2:43:37

I love that question it's not that you have to stick to what I mean, curated and specific. oh, all people and all this. No, no, no, no. You can shoot different types of content of genres and kind of categories. And a lot of people do, but it's the visual consistency of how, and I say it's like the aesthetic. And a lot of people will take that, well, they just all put this filter on it. This is why I always advise photographers look at key players in the genre and the work you want to be producing that they are getting the work that you ultimately want to be getting to look and look at how they are positioning themselves. And I do this all the time when I work with photographers or when I put fully loose. I'll show examples, and again, These are not to compare to like to yourself like oh my god There's no no no this just give you an idea of look at this person Look at how visually how they're shooting fashion I always give it one example this photographer and this person shoots fashion, but because of her skin It's like kind of visual consistency of how she shoots that. She carries that over in how she shoots travel, how she shoots events, how she shoots product, and she gets hired for that. hard to explain because it's like kind of a visual thing. You have to look, but that's why I always tell photographers, look at other photographers and you'll, the photographers you see getting these work from like these top brands and top publications, they all have a vibe. One might be, it's like a soft natural feel another might be like, this is obviously, my thing is gels kind of thing and it's applied to they have developed and this is kind of tandem hand in hand of develop their own visual in a sense of this is how I see it. Myself as an artist sees the world, and I think newer photographers sometimes fall in the trap where I have to do everything. So I have to kind of make everything look the same. And it's no, the most important thing as a photographer and why people look to your work is they want to see how you look at the world. I look at the world versus you look at the world. Definitely, at the same time, if we went down the same street, This, and Adam, both of us went down the same street and we were photographing. Your photographs are probably going to look way different to mine's because I'm going to see the beauty of probably, I loved shooting abandoned buildings and like raggedy things because I saw the beauty of the forgotten. Where you might be like, look at that couple sitting on the bench, look at this couple or look at this person right here playing, you know what I mean? that's what I love about photography because the thing is everyone can have a camera and everyone would take a different picture of the same subject. It would look so different from different perspectives. And so that's what I mean is like, why it's so important to develop that, artistic eye for yourself, believing in that self. Then the visual consistency of how you process it. I think a lot of photographers automatically just want to go to, oh, all I have to do is put a filter. No, no, no. Because once you know who you are as an artist and how you feel, how you develop, how you want to present your work, then you understand, okay, the reason I'm doing this, or the reason why I'm putting these certain color settings together, this is me. This is how I see the world and how I'm presenting myself. Knowing that It can evolve, because that's why I say a lot of these photographers you see on top of the game, look at their early work. You will see a progression, because they're continuing to master their craft and continuing to develop their eye in a new way. But still feels like them.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:47:09

Mmm. Well, this may be kind of a hard question or maybe it's a real easy question. How do we do that for ourselves? How do we find what our focus is? How do we define what it is that we want to focus on? If it's not necessarily subject matter, and there's other options, like you said, lighting editing, how do we begin to find our focus in photography?

Karen Williams: 2:47:30

I always say, do you have to do it? So I would say, go and start looking at visuals. Put together a mood board. See what you're attracted to because I can tell you there will probably be a through line on why you like these certain images. And then the next step is to go shoot it. Go start photographing. I think a lot of photographers think, oh, I have to photograph after school or after you're self taught. I only shoot when I'm getting hired. The only way you develop, it's like that. I forgot who said the quote of, it takes 10, 000 hours to really develop thing. You got to go and start shooting over 10, 000, 10, 000 photos over and over and over again. You will find quickly. What you're passionate about because you'll start saying I'm passionate about shooting people I want to get that story cuz you know to me or I'm passionate about still life I love being able to control the environment and control the elements and coming up with my creative mind like, okay Let me try, I'm gonna knit the whole scene together and then I'm gonna place the light, you know I mean there will be an inner spark I believe that will come out of you, but you have to do and it's hard I always say this is the unsexy part of it and I don't think it's taught enough, but you have to really sit there with yourself and figure out and whatever works for you, some people like to go walks, some people like to journal, whatever works for you, you got to sit down and be like, okay, there's a reason why I love doing photography and really get deep into it. Once you've kind of figured out, then you kind of lean in to that. And again, it doesn't mean that let's say you have multiple interests, it doesn't mean that those drop away, but you have to focus on one thing first to master. if you want to shoot weddings, you want to shoot portraits, you want to shoot cars. Okay, cool. But here's the thing. if you don't master all three of them, they're all going to look mid and if one looks amazing, but the other two looks mid, that's going to bring down the amazing portfolio because people can't trust you. So you have to master kind of one thing at a time. And then once you say you master portrait, okay, you want to add travel to it. So then from your portrait and how you've developed your visual eye and you know, your artistry, how do you apply that? What you're doing to portraits? To travel photography. How do you apply it to still life? You're not reinventing the wheel because that's why it's so, important to first know your visual eye and know how you think, and then you apply that to these other genres. And that's what makes the whole thing consistent. It doesn't feel hodgepodgey. What I run into, I'll be like, this is amazing, you know, portrait, portfolio. This is your strong suit. And then I get to still life and I get the food and then I'm like,

Raymond Hatfield: 2:50:07

What's

Karen Williams: 2:50:08

we have not mastered. Again, food photography is a different beast than portraits, then fashion that, you know what I mean? There's different skill sets. So are you committed to learning that to be the best that you can be in those different genres?

Raymond Hatfield: 2:50:22

Yeah, that's hard. That's a hard thing to do, right? and kind of goes back to another reason why I always suggest always continue to education, but maybe school is the right choice. if you hear that and you think to yourself, Okay, master it. I get that. But what exactly does that mean? then you definitely need help. So again, I really appreciate you breaking that down that helped me out a ton

Karen Williams: 2:50:44

May I add to that? and it doesn't mean you have to go back to school. Here's the thing for me, I take a bunch of courses. I remember I took like lynda. com or, those other subscription ones. Like I would wait until they had sales for, it's 9. 99 and I would just load up on that. you know what I mean? or go to the library and just check out books, read it. YouTube, TikTok. Now, there's like a video for everything. The thing is you have to be able to apply it and you have to practice it and do it. And you have to know that you're gonna suck when you first start, but if you keep doing it, it's just like when I start running like I suck, but I keep running and it gets easier and easier and easier. Right? So this keep in mind, give yourself grace, but there's many different paths where you do not have to go to school. If you want to go to school. Great. That works for you. Perfect. But there's so many different like online courses, that's cheaper or free YouTube videos. You just have to take, be able to be a self starter and go and start doing it and practicing it because I always tell photographers, that is the only way you're going to grow and master in a sense you gotta do.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:51:46

Yeah, you gotta do, you gotta do. I end every, episode of the podcast with, the more you shoot today, the better of a photographer that you'll be tomorrow. Because, it's not necessarily the camera gear that you got. it is literally just getting out there and doing it. Like you said, it's the 10, 000 photos. you gotta do it. So, I want to know now we understand, what the photo editor is. We understand what a photo editor is looking for. We understand a little bit about how to find our focus. so let's say that we've gone out and we've shot, say our 10, 000 photos, and now we have a collection of images that we're happy with that we like that are uniquely us somebody who has seen a lot of portfolios, how do we start to build a portfolio that is going to stand out when we give it to somebody?

Karen Williams: 2:52:28

So I always say my suggestion to people because you know again it took me years to be a great editor. So when I started I sucked I was like, these all look good People come to me and like, no, Karen, why are you picking the ones with the people's eyes closed? So let me know and let you know I

Raymond Hatfield: 2:52:42

You weren't. You weren't picking photos of

Karen Williams: 2:52:44

so, you know, I mean maybe not but not thinking about Oh, do you see how awkward or not being able to see certain things, right? It took years to kind of like hone in where now I can look at a photo and make sure i'm scanning it clearly but I always tell, photographers, once you kind of know, first, again, circle back to the brands you want to be looking at, one trend to book or publication you want to book, visually see what's out there, what kind of your competition of the kind of shots they have there, then you're going to go into your own work. First, I always say go with first pass of, and I always say, ask this question, is this photo, gonna serve me now to get the jobs I want because this is sometimes you could be like, these are all my favorites and trust me, I was one of those in school where how dare you tell me my 27 photos too much for this portfolio. No, all of them are needed. Sorry. Bye. Like, so I feel you, I tell you like again, and when I edit, I always tell the grapher these are not my babies. I'm not attached, so I'll kill your darlings. I'm like, I'm a cutthroat. I'm like, Nope, nope, nope, nope. This is why I feel like it's best. So sometimes, when you're kind of wafer back and forth, I would say first just ask you a question. is this photo serving you? to get the job you ultimately want to get. If it's a yes, keep. If it's a no, it doesn't mean this photo goes away forever. You can put it on socials, put on a blog, or if you desperately need to see it on a website, make another website for yourself that you only see for yourself and just put it on there. And then you can look at it every day. Okay, once you've kind of called that down and I always say where the kind of general format I see for websites and again, it's however you want. I see Websites where people want to be super fancy And some that are straight just a tumblr page It just depends on your artistic vision and how you express your work Usually but template the format you see is like an overview and then you see I always say You Then have the, diminished turns of clicks, like what's the first thing is the one you want to get hired for and like kind of the genre and then you go from there and there to contact. So I'm just going to use an example. Overview should be just a hit, quit. This is the advertiser where you're like, people are like, Ooh, this is amazing. These are A images that can stand by themselves. They don't need a context of another image around it. These are basically, I would say, billboard images or covers. Think of it like that where you have to sell something before someone enters, flips over the magazine or wants to Google the brand because they love that image so much. So think of it like that and trust me, it's not as many as you think.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:55:17

Yeah.

Karen Williams: 2:55:17

No one makes, like all these A things, because you do stories, right? You do a fashion story, and you're telling a whole, story, but not all those images are cover worthy, in a sense, you know? And I'm not saying they can't, but you know, there's a reason why, that image was chosen as the cover. So it's Think of your overview as these are my cover images. These get people excited to want to click more and stay on your site. So that's what you have to think. You're curating to speak the language to the brands and publications or the kind of work that you want to attract to yourself and people to be oohing on. about Then the second time, let's say, I want to shoot more celebrity portraits or portraits. And here's the thing, if you want to shoot celebrities, And you don't have that in your portfolio first to start off with kick ass portraits Okay to get the attention and start getting work to start kind of building yourself up to that But you will be like, okay portraits and then maybe you're having that Let's say I shoot some still life and it's awesome. I always say how many clicks Does it take to get to where you want people to go to? And where do you want them to go first? because of TikTok, we have an attention span of what, seven, five, seven seconds? So kind of think, so think about that when you're kind of curating your, portfolio. First, you want to be speaking the language of the kind of work to attract the companies you want to be getting work for. And then making sure that the photos, are like bangers. I'm like in the lane of less is more. Don't put everything in the kitchen sink because you can have what I see ruin portfolios the most. I'll see Oh, this is amazing. Amazing. Like what the hell is this image?

Raymond Hatfield: 2:56:51

Yeah,

Karen Williams: 2:56:52

that image? And then you're starting to make me question, you do this? you're having like hodgepodge kind of things where it's now throwing me into question, can you deliver? So that's why I always say it's like, make sure, not saying here's the thing, portfolio will get you in, but what always will keep you in the circle kind of like, or people recommend you is how you deliver. So don't be putting things, if you don't feel 100 percent confident, I should be able to pick anything from your site. And be like, okay, I want a baby of that, and you know how to do it. Like, I literally just tell you, I want a baby of this. Like, I like this lighting here, I like this background here. I want a baby of that. And do not put anything you do not want to be hired for. I have had that so many times where I will pick the image, I really love the picture, and they're like, oh, I didn't like it. But I just put it up there because people

Raymond Hatfield: 2:57:42

Really? Even at like, a high professional level? Wow. That seems like such a new photographer thing because it's so like, you typically think, don't have enough in my portfolio, I need to just add something there. But even at such a high level?

Karen Williams: 2:57:56

I would be like, no, do not put anything you do not want to be hired for because you will be hired for that. Cause I've done it before where I reach out to a photographer and it's like, Oh, we like this. And they're like, Oh, I don't really like it. I like the image kind of, but I don't really, I don't want to do that.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:58:08

Wow. Yeah.

Karen Williams: 2:58:09

I've had that. So I have to tell people like, that's why I say you can have favorite photos, maybe put in your personal projects. here's the thing, if there's something that you really love, but doesn't really fit the vibe of what you're trying to sell yourself as, in a sense, personal projects the ticket because personal projects can be whatever you want. Now, remember, again, you still want it to feel cohesive in a sense, not like cohesive to the thing, but the personal projects should feel cohesive within itself. So it might be like, I'm a high end celebrity portrait photographer, but here's what I did when I went to the studio. Trip to Haiti or something or you know to me or I went to Paris and I documented tour funds Right and that again personal projects can get you other work because I've hired photographers based on their personal projects before so it's like oh and we look, say I'm sports illustrator or something I'm like, oh we really liked your work that you did with the tour friends Would you like to do something like that again? Mm-Hmm?

Raymond Hatfield: 2:59:06

Yeah, I had Brad Mangin on the podcast, a while ago who he was like one of the first photographers to document MLB just with Instagram and he got a ton of work because of that. And it was just a personal project. He wasn't like selling these photos or anything. So, that's a great. And I'm glad to hear that, it, wasn't just a one off thing and that it happens in more cases than that. So, Karen, I know that people are thinking of themselves right now. This is wonderful, but I definitely don't want to get to the point to where I put in all this work and eventually build a garbage portfolio. So, as we end our conversation here, can you let us know where can we find out more about you online? Can we find more information on how to go deeper into our focus, get more into the business side of a commercial photography here and, build a awesome portfolio.

Karen Williams: 2:59:50

And so for me, you can find me@blackvisualqueen.com and then all my socials is Black Visual Queen and I daily on LinkedIn and Instagram will. tips and, you know, nuggets, but other resources though, that I always point photographers to is, this is how I learned about being a photo editor actually is you're not following like a photo editor. com. So Rob, I'm a former like photo director of I believe outside magazine. he has a website and a, Instagram. I say that's like 100 percent he first of all have tabs for like legal terms. He posts estimates To give you like clear, real estimates from real jobs to show you hey, this is how people are billing This is what people are putting in them He also does these anonymous surveys with real commercial photographers and asking them questions They answer whatever they want to answer, but they'll give you like real time rates they're, pros and cons, rule advice from working photographers in the game to give you insight and wisdom. So I 100 percent recommend him. He's the one why I actually learned kind of what a photo editor does because I just would follow him and be like, okay, what are you doing? And how do you break in? Another source is also a wonderful machine. They have such a great detailed blog and that's another place where you can go and reach out to their services if you ever need help, putting together an estimate or anything, that's another place. ask a rep also on, Instagram. she's kind of a hybrid agent where, she gives daily advice to photographers about pitching portfolios, estimates and stuff like that. So I would say those are kind of my top kind of three to get more resources and also your local like photo, you know, chat, organizations, to reach out and they usually have a ton of information

Raymond Hatfield: 3:01:37

All right, last up, we have my chat with Pablo Ghiori, who is the director of Experimental Photography Festival. Today, he's going to teach you the significance of making creative decisions at every step of the photographic process. including, you know, using different cameras to explore unique textural qualities and perspectives. You're also going to learn about the fascinating technique of film swapping for double exposures. This one was really fun. This is where you exchange film rolls between different photographers, which leads to unexpected and kind of surreal images. Additionally, Pablo is going to introduce the idea of experimental photo soup. Now this is where you soak your photos in just different liquids to create unique visual effect when developing them. And this creates just kind of a playful and inventive way to experiment with your photos that is often not talked about. It's a ton of fun. When did you know that photography was going to first play an important role in your life? Silence.

Pablo Giori: 3:02:40

I have the feeling that it was, not so far away. We can talk about ten years or so, because I have two different, I mean, One is more the research and the historical point of view. And the other one is my more practical, taking pictures. So to say, and then my last version as the director of experimental photo festival. But the first one was, mainly doing research when I was doing my PhD in history. At that point I realized photography was a really strong, a powerful tool. for understanding history. That was kind of my first moment when I just get connected with photography from a more professional point of view. Then I study more about conservation, research, and heritage of archives of photography. And then I start doing photography by myself, trying to follow the steps of the avant garde, uh, Moholy Nagy, Man Ray, all those kind of things because it was connected with the photographer that I was working. Here in Spain. doing that project. It was. I mean, it was crazy that I think that was the moment when I realized that my expressive, necessities go through photography in a clear way. And then when we started with the festival on 2025, 6, 7 years ago now, because we started really at the end of the 2018. Yeah. When I start organizing things related with photography with this worldwide community that we have on experimental photography, that sky was kind of really clear that photographers were, the most interesting people in the world. And I really want to get connected with these conversations with photographers.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:04:21

Can I ask what were you getting your PhD in

Pablo Giori: 3:04:24

history.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:04:25

history? So

Pablo Giori: 3:04:27

Yes. Contemporary history. It was a comparison between Spain and Canada.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:04:32

Oh, wow. So what was it about photography? Because, I know a few people who have their PhD and it's a very analytical, process to get that done. And then you find photography and it's this, it's almost an entirely different world. What was it about photography that made you say, Holy cow, this is way more interesting to me than, uh, than maybe pursuing a PhD.

Pablo Giori: 3:04:55

No, I mean, I, I had my PhD.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:04:58

No, of course, sorry, I didn't mean, yeah, just, but, but just to take a lot of that time and now, now focus it

Pablo Giori: 3:05:03

Yes. Uh, at that moment, the I mean, the photography that I was interested the most was in the archival one, thinking on the first part of the 20th century, 50s and 60s, how you can really interpret the society from their photographic. It was not from an artistic point of view. It was not related with my own work, but trying to interpret what the archives were telling us from history because I was doing a comparison, a historical comparison between. And Catalonia, it was related with civic society, popular character, nationalism, different subject. It was not directly linked with photography by when I start checking the different documents, you have a lot of books, you have magazine, and then every time that I found the photography, I say, okay, but there is some information that these, on these photographies that are not really On the literature or in the text that people has written about all these moments, you know, that was the moment that I saw that there are so much information on those photographies that we really need to have a lot of information to interpretate them. And that was kind of the moment when I said, okay, this is not a normal document. This is totally the contrary of what I'm working now with experimental photography. Obviously that we are really going. more or less against this idea of the document, but at the first glance for me seeing the photographer as a really historical document just blow my mind.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:06:32

So when did it go though for you, I'm simply, ingesting these documents to, I'm going to pick up a camera for myself and start shooting. Was the idea to document your own life or was it just to play around? Tell me more about that.

Pablo Giori: 3:06:46

It was more linked with experimentation because I'm a specialist in a photographer from Barcelona. He's called Pera Catalai Pic. He was one of the avant garde people mixing double exposure mainly and photo montage. it was the first guy that bring the collage and photomontage to Spain in the, at the end of the twenties. And I was doing, it was not part of my PhD, it was the next project. I was doing a biography about his life, working with his family. It was really, really interesting and I was really trying to understand how this guy works. You know, really trying to put myself and my life and my body and everything on his hands. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously you can do a biography of someone if you don't really do what this person did every day. You know, I had this necessity of really becoming myself a photographer for really understanding deeply, how being a photographer was. And that was the moment when I bought my first camera and I started doing photography. And then I really I think that I get in a deeper understanding because you know how amazing can be to make a great photography, how frustrating can be not to find exactly what you are looking for. All those things were happened to this guy, you know, and it was a really amazing way of really deeply connecting with his daily day life.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:08:11

That has got to be difficult to, uh, find a photographer, uh, who you like and then try to start emulating their work to see what it's like being them, Surely you didn't, you know, take that first frame and say, wow, I got it. This was perfect. it's an exact copy. What were some of those earliest challenges that you faced when, when trying to achieve the style of photography?

Pablo Giori: 3:08:30

At the beginning, I started with double exposure, and then that was the biggest project I was, I'm mainly doing because I, I'm not doing a lot of photography now as I'm a researcher now, and also the director of the festival. I don't have a lot of time, but I started learning double exposure because that was mainly what was this photographer doing also at that time. He was doing it in the dark room because he was doing photo montage. I was doing double exposure in That's why I'm playing with my camera. all the time. this project was, it's called Film Swap Worldwide and I was doing double exposure by Film Swap. Film Swapping is, you have a film, you make your film at your place, then you take it out, you send it to another one, this other person put the film on their camera without knowing what they have shoot or nothing and just shoot it again. And you create a double exposure with someone else, without knowing what is on the film and just. Doing it again and trying to see what the result of this chance of good mixings are. It was a good way of questioning authorship, obviously, but also it was really good to go out from this really technical or strict. photography, you know, because in the end you are doing a film and you never know how this film is going to get mixed with another one. And that was pretty frustrating at the beginning, but it was also really powerful because I was really lucky at the beginning. And I did a couple of them that they were kind of really, really good. And I say, okay, I want to go this way. You know,

Raymond Hatfield: 3:10:06

Okay, so Oh, most people get into photography. And they're like, I'd like to learn how to control my camera settings better. And you're like, I wanna, I want to shoot film in a way to where I'm gonna send it to somebody else and then they're gonna shoot it as well to double expose it, and then we're gonna develop it to, that seems like such a, difficult way of, of trying to learn this process. But sometimes I guess, education is best, trial by fire. So, how did those first roles turn out?

Pablo Giori: 3:10:35

some of them were really amazing. And then in the end, I published a book with the best part of that project. I, uh, I make exchange with sick, 80 photographers at that time. Till now I have 120 from all over the world is one of the biggest. Projects in the world with this technique and then you make friends you get connected with others others give you comments Also what you are doing. Well what you are doing wrong and then in some moment you learn from doing photography that way Obviously I was connected with film clubs and other things and also with all the lomography community I mean, I was obviously in contact with other people. I was already an specialist in archives in photographic archives I mean I was I was I was really well connected with photography in general. I was not just a regular amateur doing economics and just going to make some shooting films on the weekends. I was, much more get into the details of photography, but that was my first way of getting in more in a practical way. And it was really fun. And it keeps being really fun. Even if I have been working with more than 120 photographers, every time that I travel, I just make a couple of films and then I mix them. It's really fun. Uh, we have a party at the festival that is called the Film Swap Party and I just put there all my films and I just exchange it with others and then see what happens, you know?

Raymond Hatfield: 3:11:55

That is so cool. That is such a great idea with, I find like some of the best ideas have such a high potential for failure. but when they come out, It feels like a Grand Slam. Like it It is so So, obviously you mentioned the festival there. Why don't you tell me a little bit more about this? Because this sounds like, right up a lot of listeners alleys. A lot of listeners are, photographers who maybe they learned photography a number of years ago. Maybe they did it at high school. Maybe they learned on film. They had a career, you know, whatever it is. And now they're looking to get back into it as a, as a creative release. And, and doing something fun, doing something new, doing something different in photography is always something that piques my interest. so tell me about where the idea of the festival came from and where it's at today.

Pablo Giori: 3:12:36

Yes, it's a long story. I'm going to try to make, uh, as short possible.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:12:40

we got time, we got time.

Pablo Giori: 3:12:42

If it gets too long, you can just say, shh, shh, shh, shh. And I can just make it shorter now. It's okay. I started, just going more chronologically. I started with this project of double exposure, and then I start creating a community here in Barcelona with people also doing double exposures. Because I wanted really to create a small community of people teaching and learning what we knew they were. I found 10 people here and as there were no other information on Internet or in town, there were no nothing about double exposure, experimental photography. I say, okay, why not to create the community and then we can just get together every week or so and just exchange and share opportunities and teach and learn what we have learned till now. And at that point, we create this community here that is on the base of the festival. Then I did this big project with photographers worldwide. I collaborated with the Smithsonian Institution for a project in Washington, not related with photography, but my PhD. And then I saw how a big festival can be organized worldwide. And then I say to the other director, the co director of the festival, Laura, Why? Why we are not starting a festival or a gathering or something that people can come to Barcelona. We know the city, we have friends, we know the places, we know how to organize a festival. She's a specialist also in graphic design and communication. And we say, okay, if we have the communication, we have the organization, we have all these communities of people wanting to come to Barcelona. Why not to organize at least a weekend or something for putting all these, at least 120 people together. to share and to see what they have learned or what they want to do, and then just get bigger and bigger and bigger. We don't know how, but that first year it was, it wasn't January 2020, but we organized all these on 2019. It was, before pandemics and three months before the festival, we just sold out the festival with 120 participants. worldwide. It was pretty crazy because we wanted to make it bigger and it was impossible because there were no, bigger places in Barcelona. Obviously this, everything was do it yourself. We don't have no money, not organization, nothing. And we just canceled the registrations because we don't have more space for more people. And then people just came here and it was really crazy. I mean, the first festival was amazing. And then as we love to say, it was the best festival of 2020 because as this was in January, it was the only one, you know,

Raymond Hatfield: 3:15:13

That's hilarious. That is so funny. I want to know, was the idea for this first festival? You know, you've talked a lot about the double exposures in this project. Was the idea to talk more about double exposures and go deeper into that? Or was it for you? Maybe, selfishly to explore all levels of experimental photography? Silence.

Pablo Giori: 3:15:48

years or so. And it was just a challenge. We really wanted to met them in person. That was kind of the first idea. We thought on doing a festival on double exposure, but it has no really, not a really long interest. And at that point we were working and we realized with this book, it's really interesting if you want to find it. it's called experimental photography handbook of technique, uh, 2017. with learning about this book, we realized that experimental photography, I mean, the double exposure was part of a big family of photography that is called experimental photography. And that was a moment when we realized that double exposure was something part of something bigger, that there were other communities, that there were other people doing crazy things with photography. And then we decided really to do, to work more on experimental photography and really to do the first festival. on experimental photography in the world. And that was crazy because we have people from pinhole. We have people from Polaroid, experimental Polaroid, digital photographers. I mean, it was, that was crazy because we have from the different communities. We have five, six, seven, eight, 10 people from each of them. And that was mainly the reason of the boom of the festival. Also, as you said, there were this mix of people from those that were doing photography in the nineties. 2000 at the beginning that they were kind of coming from analog. Also the new ones coming from digital and also these new community of people growing on, on social networks, you know, all these Lomographers, Polaroiders, and all those communities working online that they were, they had the opportunity to meet each other on internet because they were sharing on blogs and other things, but they have never, ever had the opportunity to meet. And the festival, I think, really found that perfect spot that people was looking for.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:17:44

one thing that I struggle with is that when it comes to learning photography, I try to stress the importance of, like, knowing what you're going after, right? Like, try to, try to have a vision of what you're going after. Of the end in mind so that you can have something to start working towards but oftentimes in experimental photography With these processes that you haven't tried before or even double exposures where you're giving up so much control Half the control to somebody else. where's the like benefit like explain to me how photographers benefit going through a process like this. Is it more of an education to expand their mind of what's possible in photography? is it all community? Is it all, help me through this part. this one of the things that my mind always has a hard time wrapping around, but yet love seeing the results so much, even though I could never know that this is what it's, what it's going to turn out to be.

Pablo Giori: 3:18:33

I think all the options that you have said are good. For example, having a community is really important. As you might imagine, experimental photographers are not so many in the world. I mean, there are really small communities all over the world, but that's one, two, three, four people. Having a bigger community, obviously, is really powerful for them. That is really important. The second aspect, as you have also said, is that photography is really a control process. I mean, people really want to control everything. You really need to have everything in mind. You really need to think photography before. there are some people that are tired of this kind of control. Also these kind of, when you go to the portfolio reviews and there are always people say, no, this is not good. This is not good. This is not photography. This is blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, this kind of canon. That is so, uh, strict, you know, people wants to relate with photography from a more, playful style, you know, they want to fun to get fun also with photography. Obviously, if you are a professional photographer working for MoMA or all of these institutions of high standards. Obviously, you need to respect all these laws and you need to be part, but there are tons of other people that really wants to get experience of photography. That is much more powerful in the sense of experience. They really want to get experience with the image that is not through perfection is through playfulness and I think experimental photography goes with this other idea of doing photography. That you can really receive something that you are not able to think about it before. we always have this Edward Weston pre visualization. On experimental photography, we always talk about Jerry Welsman, article 1967. he was doing an exhibition on Eastman Kodak Museum. this text is called post visualization. Easy to find on internet if you look for Jerry Welsman post visualization. And what he's saying, he say, okay, good, we can think the image. We can capture the image with the camera, but we can also post visualize, visualize it. You know, we have the opportunity to recreate this image in the dark room. We can modify all what camera give us. This is just a capture of image, but then we can modify, we can intervene. We can tone our images. We can create collage. I mean, there are tons of things that we can do with the image that we can pre visualize. And what he's saying is in 1967, we need to recover all that part for photography and something that I'm always explaining with experimental photography, if you ask me what experimental photography is, I'm going to say that this is a complete photography from the first question. Do you want to take a picture with the camera or without the camera? There are tons of techniques, more than a hundred techniques that are cameraless photography. For example, cyanotypes. For doing cyanotype. You don't need a camera. You can just make a contact print. Or a photograph. That's the first decision. The second decision is you want to use this camera. You want to use another camera. You want to create your own camera like this one. This is a pinhole camera. Solarigraphic camera. I mean, which camera do you want to use? Do you want or I mean, this is handmade one. Do you want to use an industrial one or you want to use handmade camera? Do you want to use this film? Do you want to use this lens? Do you want to use this film? Because you can change films. You can do your own film. You can create, for example, with cyanotype, you can create a negative with cyanotype and create your own camera. Not all the films are industrial, they are also a big family of experimental photography link, uh, with the photosensitive materials that you are going to use. And then when you have a negative, then you can print. From the 19th century, we have more than 65 printing techniques, that you can use to print your negative, uh, Bandai Brown. As I say, cyanotype tons of them. I mean, in September, we are going to have a new webpage for the Agora with all the details of the techniques, but you can see more than 144 techniques of experimental photography. The most important is to understand all these steps where you can really make a creative decision. Then when you print, when you have your copy, you can intervene and you can modify it. You can burn it, folding, whatever you want. And then you can make it something digital. You can do. I mean, a lot of things with digital photography from that point on. What does it means when you do an industrial photography? This industry has taken a lot of decisions. You are going to previsualize your images. You are going to have this format because this film is cheaper and you are going to have the exact colors And this is this is this is all the decisions are made you may click and then you have a camera six by nine Print in a paper that is a regular one The industry has taken tons of decisions for you what we want to do with experimental photography and that's kind of the concept of total photography is recovering Your possibility of making decisions in all these different aspects. Obviously doing experimental photography, we leave the industry also to make a lot of decisions. If not, this is really tiring, you know, this is the deciding everything, but at least to have in your mind, all these possibilities of expression.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:23:56

I'm at a loss. That's one of those things I think, I never really. Considered, you know, I think I look at photography like oh, we have the option to shoot 35 millimeter We have the option to shoot digital. We have the option to you know even do medium format if we wanted But those are the only options That we've been given Not necessarily all the options that are available and that is uh Wow, I had never really considered that honestly That is something that I I want to explore more. then tell me, with all of these different, different types of experiments that we can, you know, perform on, on photography, you said there's more than 100 and 140 different, uh, options, you know, that we can do, what is something right now that you see in experimental photography that is just, really exciting to you?

Pablo Giori: 3:24:43

for me, the most important is the, those kinds of projects that they mix a lot of photography with something else. I mean, something linked with science or mainly with science, and technology. That's are the things that interest me the most. when we talk about, for example, the second, digital revolution in experimental photography, the first one are those cameras. I mean, regular cameras that they just use lenses, but they are kind more do the same. But there are a lot of technology in digital that they can help you to show something that we are not able to see with our eyes. as you might know, at the end of the 19th century, Edward Muybridge and others, they create, this is a big debate with the photo finish. They create this image that was faster than our eyes. Even faster than the judges off a horse race, you know, and that was the first moment in the history that was at the end of the 19th century that photography was showing something really new, something that we were not able to see with our eyes. What happened on the second digital revolution in experimental photography is the moment when digital photography can show us something that we are not able to see with our eyes. Not with the digital regular camera, not with analog. and that is for example, I don't know if you know this, but they call, they are radars. Technically they are radars. This kind of radars is called lidar. radar. They can really make, it's kind of the rather that the, um, fishing companies using to know exactly where the fishes are, but they can use it to see what are on earth. And you can use this rather really to recreate a 3d image of the reality, but seeing some seeing things that you are not able to get in. There is an amazing project when I learned about this technique is because his name is Jirak Jindal. He's an artist from, I think, New Zealand. And he was really making pictures, pictures. 3D pictures of caves, caves that are in, New Zealand that you're not able to see. He's using this rather really to see how the houses and cars are from inside and also what is underneath the earth on these caves that you are not able to see. Obviously, this is an image that is recreated with the digital information that then this technology can recreate. A 3D image of the reality that is exactly the same thing that we can see in the reality. But this, the good thing of these scanners, these radars, is that you can see inside of the stones, and this is the moment when you can see something new, recreate as an image in the end with this, digital information that you can have from a radar.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:27:30

So, let me ask then, what do you do with this information? Right? So somebody goes and takes a, a radar scan. of rocks, of houses, of a cave. What do we do with this? Does this just get printed in a traditional 16x9? Or like, am I thinking about a finished product incorrectly? comes out of it?

Pablo Giori: 3:27:48

uh, is selling really expensive copies. I mean, really, really, really big copies of the images of these houses, these cars, and all the caves that are created and recreated on their stone underneath of the houses. I mean, you can see kind of the different levels of the houses and also what you can see underneath of the earth. And this was part of his research for his, master's thesis. And he's an artist, selling this kind of work of art everywhere. But these images are not created with the regular cameras. They are really created with a radar. And that is, for me, is crazy because that is a moment where really a digital technology can show us something that we are not able to see in any other way. this is really, that's why we call this moment a second revolution in digital.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:28:40

I see. Okay. Okay, that makes sense. this new question just popped into my head then. cause I had never really thought of anything like that. Mm When it comes to, trying something new, right? Something experimental. Do you find that the idea comes from seeing the technology in your hand? In this case, like, oh, wow, I have this radar scanner. I wonder what I could do with it. Or does it come from, man, I'd really like to achieve this technique. I wonder what technology it would take to achieve something like this. Does that question make sense?

Pablo Giori: 3:29:08

Yes, I think there are two different approach. One is more the artistic one. People come that comes more from the art world. They normally see this new images and they say, Okay, I want to learn this technique. And they look for information. That's why we have the festival. We have Agora, also this school for teaching the techniques, but they mainly come more from an artistic point of view. But what you are asking, and I think that this is also Chirac's point of view, he comes more from a technological or from a research point of view. I mean, I come from geology, but I'm not happy with what I can see on the regular maps. I want to see this reality from a different point of view. I want to study more about radars and I want to see if I can adapt one of these radars to what I'm looking for on my artistic research. You know, this is kind of the mix. This is always happening on experimental photography that you want to see the reality in a different point of view. There is something in your head, in your mind that says, Okay, I'm good with my camera. I'm not going to say that I'm done with the camera, but I want to see something new. And at that point, people start looking for new things. For example, even printing techniques, as I say, cyanotype, for example, uh, you have been printing all your life in this kind of, two hours printing things that you can do in the supermarket. And then you say, no, I want to learn how to print my images because I don't want them to look so real. I want to be able to intervene them. And then you can start learning how to print and then how to modify all these printings. For example, uh, I mean, it can come from a really scientific approach because we have a researcher, for example, for NASA and she's working with light painting in Polaroid. She's Felicitas Russo. She's a crazy art, uh, uh, scientific. That in the end comes to art because the scientists just get crazy and in some point they want linked reality or something and they get closer to art. Or we have the other way around. I mean, we have people from art that they want to create things in another way and they get connected with experimental photography. They understand all these 144 techniques and they say, okay, as you said, this is crazy. I think that there is something that I can use from these technique or this experimentation for my work. Obviously, I want to use it for what I'm thinking to express myself, but I'm going to take this and this. And the best moment is when someone can really mix different techniques or different ideas to express, what they are thinking and they find different ways. That is something good about experimental photography. There are so many ways of expressing yourself. That is pretty easy to find, something new and something that you feel comfortable with creating.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:32:00

So then, would you say that it's possible because there's the two schools of thought here, and I'd love to get your, opinion. Trying something new, it can be scary, right? there's a high, possibility of failure, and not going your way. what do you do in those times of failure? and side question, would you consider it even technically a failure?

Pablo Giori: 3:32:21

two questions. The first one is, if you are in a bad times, that's life, get closer to friends,

Raymond Hatfield: 3:32:27

ha ha.

Pablo Giori: 3:32:28

your community. And that's why also we are working so hard with community because there might be someone in the community that might help you, in emotional point of view, but also on the technical point of view for you to stop, failing. So to say, this is the idea. The solution is the community. You are not going to arrive to the future of photography. That is the goal of experimental photography. Finding something new by yourself. Because you are not able to know everything. I mean, there are so many techniques. So many new research. So many history. It's impossible. You need to get together with other people. All those other people are going to help you. To have more information. To have more feedbacks. To receive new ideas. And also to have a community. to help you on these hard times? That's the first question. The second question is for us, there are never failures. For example, we are going to be doing this year at the festival, an exhibition about Fox Talbot. Oh, uh, I mean, or Weedwood, Weedwood was a guy doing, photography at the end of the 18th century. he was doing ephemeral photography because he was trying to fix. I mean, there are no fixed images, but they were doing the research to find a way to fix it. And Talbot, Daguerre, and others were able to fix the images on 1839, as you know. But the thing is that not being able to fix the image is not a problem because you are on the way of creating new images. You know, the ability of fixing the image, as we normally say, is something on the industry of photography because you want to conservate that image. But you don't really need it. To fix the image and to have this image forever. this is a problem of contemporary art. You can do art that is ephemeral, and that's good. That's, for example, anthotypes and chlorophyll printing that we print with plants. For example, this is ephemeral. There are no way to stop, the sensitive condition of the material. And it might just get lost as an image. But we have a lot of experimental photographers working with those techniques Because it's really amazing that you're able to create the photography with the plant You know, even if it's ephemeral, that's why we never I mean with obviously You have the feeling that you have failed on what you are going through if you don't receive what you are working for But the idea of experimental photography is that you're in a process of creating things with others You have a goal and you are going that way. Maybe it's going to take you 10 years, but you are going to find it, you know, because if you really have a good idea, you have also to enjoy the process of creating these images and the exhibition that we are going to do for the first time in Barcelona. It's that idea that even Talbot that was really famous, he was all his life, he did in his archives, there are more than 50, 000 images. He was saving everything. He was doing tons of images every day. None of them were a failure because in some point he made click and he found something new and now he's on the history of photography. because all the research that he was doing was something really important for us. That's the thing. We need to convert this failure in part of the process of learning. And that's what the failure really is.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:35:51

Yeah, of course, of course. I appreciate you sharing that, with an audience of new photographers, oftentimes I've found that we get these expectations. Of exactly what it is that we want to create, or you see something online and you go after it. And as you know, the first attempt, very rarely ever, is as successful as, you know, whoever this other person's hundredth attempt may be. So, yeah, it's really important To change that mindset of it's not a failure. You're just on that journey to, to getting better. So, I want to ask though, because, a lot of photographers who are listening may be brand new photographers in the sense of maybe they didn't shoot in the past, maybe they don't have, an old film camera, maybe they still just have a digital camera. something that they do to get started in experimental photography? What's something that they can try, and just dip their toes into? In it to see if it's something that they want to pursue more.

Pablo Giori: 3:36:45

I think the best is to get into our Instagram account. I mean, we are sharing works of people. We have more than 2000 posts over the last five years, and then you have the biggest amount of techniques that you can find in any other page on Instagram or in other other webpage that you want. I recommend them to check what they, what appeal to their eyes and their minds visually. That's kind of the first in love with experimental photography. See something that you like and then get into the description and you are going to find the technique or the concept or the idea or something that is going to connect to you. Because as I say, there are so many techniques that I am not able to tell you one, you know, because People are interested in different things. Uh, we have people interested in creating their own cameras. For example, check, pinhole photography. If You are really into this kind of creating things, blah, blah, and you want to create your own camera, pretty easy. This is just a beer can. You can create your own beer can, go for pinhole photography. If you want to find a new way of printing your images, uh, you can find printing techniques of the 19th century. The easy one. is cyanotype. you can find that pretty easy. There are tons of tutorials on the internet. If you want to get deeper, obviously come to our school, but if you want to print, you have your negatives and you want to print them in a different way, start with cyanotype because it's pretty easy. it's not so contaminant as others. You don't need a dark room. You can do it at your home. Uh, you can just buy the kits that, people sharing worldwide, or you can just buy the chemistry in your regular, every big city has places to buy cyanotypes because are really, pretty, the chemistry is pretty easy to find. And then if you want to do something more related with modifying the printed images that you already have, I love collage, for example, or photo embroidery. You know, these people that are just, embroidering.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:38:55

Yeah,

Pablo Giori: 3:38:56

Photographies, these are two pretty easy kind of, interventions in photography that are really, really good. I also like, and I have done, uh, this technique is called photo soup. you can put your print images in water, with some chemistry. For example, just a washing soda or, washing the cleaning thing that you use for cleaning your. Your basal or your wash or your clothes, know, this kind of powders or this chemistry that you know that they are pretty toxic but not so much just Try to put your images down there for a couple of hours You're printing images digital or whatever and just give it a couple of days Just every day take it out and see what happens This chemistry is going to start modifying the emulsion You And I think crazy things are going to happen. This is an intervention, called Photosoup. Let's try that. You know, that can be a really good thing to do.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:39:56

Just so that I'm clear, we're taking our print, the actual print itself, not the negative or anything like that, but the actual printed photo, and then we're putting that in the chemistry here, some dish soap or something like that.

Pablo Giori: 3:40:07

Yes.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:40:08

Interesting, okay. And this is like a several day process, several weeks?

Pablo Giori: 3:40:13

Depending on the chemistry that you use and also about the printing, because it's not the same if you use an industrial print that has a plastic on it, that you might first destroy the plastic. This might take longer. It depends also if it's winter or summer, because also the temperature is going to modify the possibility of really the chemistry to influence if you really make it in your dark room, a black and white copy, it might be really fast because the plate and all the chemistry is there because you're not having any film with any film or any other thing that prevent it. To get in contact with the chemistry that might be faster, but that is something that you can do with your copies with your family album. Obviously, don't use the ones that you like the most. Always is better to make a different copy, obviously, for trying this kind of interventions, but you can just try. I mean, I have just give you three different techniques, experimental techniques, one based on creating your own camera. If you're more into cameras, another one on the printing your negatives with China type. Or modifying your printing copies, if you want, just to tell you three fast ones. You can do whatever you want. I mean, you don't need money. You don't need the dark room. Even just having a pretty easy thing with chemistry, even Coca Cola. For example, we have a guy, he's amazing, intervening, Polaroids. It's a party polaroid, polaroids that you're taking parties with different sodas. For example, Fanta, Sprite, Coca Cola, and he's just putting the polaroids in there to intervene them and seeing what happened, how the chemistry of these sodas are modifying the images. That's crazy. You go to a party, you bring a Coca Cola, you make pictures, and then you put your pictures in there. On coca cola a week and let's see how it goes, you know

Raymond Hatfield: 3:42:03

I have a number of instant photos that I've taken that I might go ahead and try that after this. Go, go put, I gotta go go to the store and get some Coke put it in there. We'll see what happens. That sounds like

Pablo Giori: 3:42:14

Sure, at least those images that you say i'm not going to do nothing with this because it move It's not i'm not going to save it. Just try something new with that You know, let's see you can learn a lot of things

Raymond Hatfield: 3:42:26

Hmm. let me ask you, this will be my last question here for you. how are you experimenting in photography right now?

Pablo Giori: 3:42:31

Myself i'm experimenting in creating a big community worldwide During a festival

Raymond Hatfield: 3:42:37

come on. I'm definitely gonna, ask you more about the festival here in a moment, but I want to know, like, what techniques are you trying? what are you doing with your images? what's just exciting you, to pick up your camera and shoot.

Pablo Giori: 3:42:49

I mean, I have a big archive. I'm working mainly with my archive, but for example, I'm, I mean, I'm using all my possibilities of learning. I don't have so much time to get into the details with things, but as I'm organizing the festival, we have a lot of opportunities and I'm trying to use them. For example, two weeks ago, we were in Madrid, doing a workshop on we did ceramics, uh, we did stone, and we did kind of a classical. And this was, a print that I did of, a portrait in ceramics with a cyanotype. And this is my last kind of learning, research on experimental photography.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:43:28

So that's a print right there. So you printed an image onto a ceramic tile using, the Sienna type technique. That is very cool. That is cool. Yeah, that might be interesting, uh, So we, we just recently refloored our house, but now I'm thinking like, Oh, how cool would that be to, obviously this could take years, but, make a collection of Sienna types on tiles and then like tile a bathroom of all of your family photos. then you could never sell that house. Because nobody would vibe to that. But it would still be, yeah, it would still be amazing. That is very Well, Paula, thank you. Thank you for sharing that with me. As we come to the end here, I want you to tell me a little bit more about the school. I know people are going to be interested. Where's the best place to get updates?

Pablo Giori: 3:44:09

On our webpage, on our Instagram account, just follow us. If not, send us an email. We can follow. if you go there on a webpage, you can follow, the newsletter that we have. We are then sending 15,000 emails every month, uh, with information for sure. You are going to find there all the information about the online festival, the school and everything.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:44:31

Man, what a journey through the world of cameras and camera settings and ideas. I really hope that this mega episode has given you just a wealth of insights and fresh ideas for how to approach your gear with a new mindset, from Christopher Gilbert's insights on sensor sizes and lenses to Pablo Giori's experimental techniques with unique cameras in film. You've just absorbed. I mean, so, so, so much advice that if implemented, we'll take your camera skills to that next level. So it's time to put in the practice, whether you're switching up your style, experimenting with film or refining your settings, remember that your camera is your creative tool, right? It's what helps bring your vision to life. It doesn't create it for you. So the more that you explore and understand its capabilities, the more it will reward you with images that reflect your style and skill. So go ahead, grab your camera, get out there and make something amazing. Why? Because remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.