The Beginner Photography Podcast

518: Shoot Ask Share: Community Q&A: Thanksgiving Edition

• Raymond Hatfield

Share episode

In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Kimberly Irish and Jim Sinicki, moderators of our Beginner Photography Podcast Facebook group, for an engaging Community Q&A session. We share the advice we wish we’d had when starting out, dive into AI’s growing role in photography, discuss ways to profit from landscape photography, and offer practical tips for collaborating with second shooters at weddings. As you listen, reflect on how these insights can shape your approach, spark new ideas, and inspire growth in your photography journey.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Value of an Assistant: An assistant can handle logistical tasks, allowing you to concentrate on capturing magical moments.
  • Embrace Spontaneity: Flexibility is key; unexpected moments often yield the most memorable photos.
  • Second Shooter Benefits: They provide alternative perspectives and creative angles that enrich the final photography set. 
  • Lighting Challenges: Overcoming low-light situations, especially during speeches, is critical for well-rounded coverage.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  1. Effective Use of Assistants: Train an assistant to manage equipment and setup. Delegate tasks like lighting adjustments and backdrop arrangements.
  2. Preparing for Spontaneity: Always have your camera ready for unexpected moments. Develop a quick reflex for adjusting settings on-the-fly.
  3. Maximizing Second Shooters: Choose a second shooter whose style complements yours. Discuss the plan and locations to cover all aspects efficiently. 
  4. Lighting Strategies: Invest in portable lighting equipment for versatility. Practice using your camera’s low-light settings to improve photo quality. 
  5. Capturing Unique Perspectives: Experiment with different angles and vantage points. Incorporate varied focal lengths to provide a diverse photo collection.

RESOURCES:
Visit Kimberly Irish's Website - https://www.weeirishphotography.com/
Follow Kimberly Irish on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/weeirishphotography/
Visit Jim Sinicki's Website - https://www.charliejamesphoto.com/
Follow Jim Sinicki on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/charlie_james_photo/

Grab your free 52 Lightroom Presets at
http://freephotographypresets.com/

Build Your Dream Photography Business and Keep More of the Money You Earn with CloudSpot Studio.
And get my Wedding and Portrait Contract and Questionnaires, at no cost!
Sign up now at http://deliverphotos.com/

Connect with the Beginner Photography Podcast!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Just cause we start out in something, say commercial portrait photography, doesn't guarantee that it's going to be around forever. And one of the most powerful skills that you can develop as a photographer is resilience and adaptability. Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host Raymond Hadfield, and today I'm answering your questions in a special monthly Q and a episode co hosted with our very own beginner photography podcast, community moderators, Kimberly Irish and Jim Sinicki. But first the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by Cloudspot. How does Cloudspot empower photographers? Well, they help you grow your business. How? With easy to send professional contracts, the ability to let clients schedule a shoot time that works for them seamlessly accept online payments. And so much more, if you've been thinking about trying your hand at photographing clients, but don't know where to start, it's cloud spot. They have everything that you need and it's free to use. That's right, only upgrade as your business grows. So head over to deliverphotos. com right now to grab your free forever account today. So today's Q& A episode is something that I hope to do with you all monthly. In the Beginner Photography Podcast Facebook group people ask questions all the time and often there's not just one answer, you know, it's a bit more nuanced So that's why I decided to have both Kim and Jim moderators of the Facebook group to join me in both not only asking questions But answering them as well because we all have a different set of experience than everybody else. So in today's episode we're gonna share advice that we wish that we had when we first started out in photography Our thoughts on AI and the role that it plays, not only, for photographers, but to the world as well, we'll also talk about whether or not you can still make money as a landscape photographer and our thoughts on being and working with second shooters at weddings. So if you have questions that you want answered, head over to beginnerphotopod. com forward slash QA. There, you can either type out your question and submit it, or you can leave us a voicemail, and we'll play it here on the show. So go ahead, ask your question. We would be happy to help. Again, that's beginnerphotopod. com forward slash QA. So with that, let's just go ahead and get on into the show. Hey, look what I got. I got my Holiday Shiner Cheer here.

Kim and Jim:

Oh, that looks tasty.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

festive beer I've ever

Kim and Jim:

Oh, no. Oh, are you there? Oh, there you go.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

and it's

Kim and Jim:

Festive in what way?

Raymond Hatfield (2):

so it says that it's brewed with like peaches and pecans and like it has some Christmassy flavors to it, but it's not full bore. It doesn't taste like a holiday milkshake, like some holiday beers do, and it's not like full on Cranberry like other holiday beers are. It's perfect. I think it's a perfect holiday beer.

Kim and Jim:

They just crushed up.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

tried it?

Kim and Jim:

No, but now I have to.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Now you have to. now that I think about it, I don't know if y'all would get it, because it's, from, Texas, and I don't know how far north it goes, but we just got it this year, and I was pretty excited about it.

Kim and Jim:

I mean, we're not much further north than you.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

You're not much further north than me.

Kim and Jim:

No. Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Indiana is

Kim and Jim:

couple hours.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

America, okay? The crossroads of America. This is where people come to visit, they like to see the roads. It's a great place to visit and, some shiner beer.

Kim and Jim:

Indiana's great because there's always a road out of there.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Oh, wow. Good one. Good one. So that's what I'm going to be drinking tonight. And, also for Thanksgiving as well, which is guess what? Only two days away. What?

Kim and Jim:

It's amazing. Oh my god.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Amazing. I can't believe it's actually only two days away. So, do you guys have any weird like holiday Thanksgiving traditions or anything?

Kim and Jim:

So we always go over to my best friend's house. They live on 11 acres. It's pretty much just pasture. And so there are deer. And so after dinner, the men go out and shoot a deer. Every Thanksgiving. Wow. That's kind of weird.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

don't do that before Thanksgiving, like instead of a Turkey, that seems like a prime opportunity to that into a tradition or try to tip a deer. Which, by the way, nobody else has ever done before.

Kim and Jim:

We're going back to that, huh? Okay.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Heh heh.

Kim and Jim:

Yeah. We eat fun food. We don't do the traditional turkey, mashed potato stuff. We actually make our own, Thanksgiving sandwiches a la Friends. if you guys are old enough to remember Friends. we make, grilled cheese with mashed potatoes, and cranberry sauce. And it's fantastic. No.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

sauce yourself, or is it the canned cranberry

Kim and Jim:

I don't, I don't make the cranberry sauce myself. Look at me.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

heh heh heh

Kim and Jim:

can't make that kind of stuff. I canned all the way. Cranberry sauce is legit the easiest thing to make. Nope. Canned.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

and water and you're done.

Kim and Jim:

You boil it. I

Raymond Hatfield (2):

It's, essentially ramen, but with cranberries. Heh heh.

Kim and Jim:

I can't make ramen either, man. Like, I don't want to tell ya. I haven't been to college in, ever. Literally. Never been to college. So, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

on the road for like a while. How did you not know how to make ramen?

Kim and Jim:

Hmm. It was a good taste that I probably shouldn't say. You, um, borrow food from people that don't know that you're borrowing food from them, and then you just get in the van and go. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I see. Okay. All right. Well, that's

Kim and Jim:

It's, look, it was like 20 years ago, so I can say that now.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Yeah, Statue of Limitations is far

Kim and Jim:

Exactly. Yeah. Come find me now, Iowa.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Yeah. Meanwhile, there's a detective in Iowa listening right now who's like, I knew it. it. It was him

Kim and Jim:

Ah, son. Yep.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

That's

Kim and Jim:

Uh,

Raymond Hatfield (2):

we don't have any like Thanksgiving traditions growing up. It was always like my favorite holiday because That was like the only time we're like I'd really like see my family because we'd either go to them or they'd come to us But other than that, it was always just like the traditional You But over, the past few years, we started making like, different types of sliders, like out of the King's Hawaiian rolls or whatever.

Kim and Jim:

yeah. Mm-Hmm? Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

chopped slider, which I would not think is Thanksgiving themed at all.

Kim and Jim:

No,

Raymond Hatfield (2):

it's, I think it's just more of like an excuse to make it because it's delightful and it's great. It's delicious and everybody likes it. So that's

Kim and Jim:

I've, I've, I've, found that like, now that we're older and we all have kids, like you can just make your own tradition and nobody stops you. It's the best thing ever. Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Yeah.

Kim and Jim:

it's true.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

new question. Jim, what new tradition are you going to start with your family this year?

Kim and Jim:

Shoot a deer, I don't think I'm gonna shoot a deer. I don't, we're not hunters. You know what? I don't even know. that's a really good question. what should I start with, Tammy? Maybe you should start making your own cranberry sauce. I'm gonna start making my own cranberry sauce. Hannah, my wife, if you're watching or listening to this, please make the cranberry sauce because you don't want me to make that and you know that. So, love you. heh, heh,

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Here's a pro tip to spice it up just a bit. Throw in half a jalapeno. Phenomenal.

Kim and Jim:

Ooh.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Delicious.

Kim and Jim:

sounds good.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

You know what? How about we go ahead and answer some questions? How does that sound?

Kim and Jim:

That sounds great. I think that's a fantastic idea.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Cool, okay.

Kim and Jim:

We have some more questions. Yeah, Yeah, we have more questions that people submitted in the group. We have a whole list. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I

Kim and Jim:

Also, again, if this is your question, feel free to yell at the podcast, say, that's me because we don't have your name and I'm really Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. you mad at the form? No, not at all. Okay. Okay. so here's the first question. if you could tell your beginner self something to help you on your photographic journey, what would you say?

Raymond Hatfield (2):

there's so many things that's like tell yourself as a kid one thing like what would that be It's such a big question, I think so while I think about my answer, Jim, I'm gonna ask you, what would you tell your beginner self?

Kim and Jim:

Oh man, there's so many things I would say. I think the first thing I would actually tell myself would be stop listening to other people. Because nobody knows what's going on in your camera. Nobody knows what you're seeing in your mind. Nobody knows how you're setting up the shot. But everybody has an opinion on everything that you do. So, Block out all the noise, shoot what you want to, have fun behind the camera, and just do your thing no matter what they say.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I like that. I like that. That is solid advice. Kim, would you, say anything different?

Kim and Jim:

I would actually encourage myself to kind of just do what I did, and take pictures every day, because the more I try to help other people learn, the easier it is for me to see that the muscle memory that comes with, like, getting the camera settings aligns with your Hands without looking, or figuring out exactly what settings you need for which lighting or which shooting situations. like, I just think that because I was shooting every day, I got so much practice with all of that, and it wouldn't have, like, there's nothing else that would have made me develop faster. Yeah, yeah, and I'd agree with that. I mean, shooting every day has really just changed the way I do it because you don't learn just by watching YouTube. Or just talking to people like you have to go out there and shoot every single day. I think it's a really good call out. Yep.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Yeah.

Kim and Jim:

What about you, Raymond? What do you think people should do? And or yourself?

Raymond Hatfield (2):

don't think it's necessarily something that somebody should do, but I do think that it is like a mindset thing, because we often get into photography because it's like we see photos that are artistically done and they're beautiful and we think I want to be able to do that. But we don't realize in the beginning how far away that is. Like how much time it takes to get there because there's a lot of skills that have to develop to get to that point. So when we see an image we just think oh, there we go. It's the camera. Oh, it's the lens. That'll help us be able to get there. But really, it really is such a long journey to get to wherever you want to get to, and I don't even know if we ever truly define where it is that we want to get to. It's just like a constant search. It's just a constant, path that you're constantly following to get to where you want to go in that moment. Not necessarily like five years from now, not 10 years from now. It's a really long process. So letting yourself know like, Hey, it's okay. Like this is going to take a while. You're not going to get this today. You're not going to get this tomorrow. Even if you carry a camera every day, it could be more than a year before you feel. Comfortable behind the camera and just to continue to. Stick with it and just try the things that you like and don't chase the goal of like, Oh, well, I want to go full time. And that's why I'm getting into photography now, get into photography for the fun of it. And if at one point, I don't know, somebody propositions you to, take photos, then start exploring that path, you know, cause then you're getting into it for all the right reasons. You're already going to have developed a voice and then you're just going to be happier all around. it's going to be

Kim and Jim:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

stressful.

Kim and Jim:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

tell myself.

Kim and Jim:

I mean, I could tell you there's times where when I'm working on clients, I'm like, man, I really wish I was just doing this for fun again. you know, but luckily for me, that's, that's few and far between. I mean, when you're doing what you love, it's, it's fun no matter what, I guess. So.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

still does feel like work sometimes, especially like

Kim and Jim:

it does. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

And you're like, I can tell that we're not at the end of this thing. this is going to take a while. Uh, that is when you feel like, what am I doing? I just want to be home with my kids right now. So yeah, it still feels like work, but I mean. You know, we're not, we're not in a coal mine. So, you got to anchor yourself knowing that. So, yeah. Did we answer that question?

Kim and Jim:

I think so. I think so. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Cool.

Kim and Jim:

All right. Our next

Raymond Hatfield (2):

the next question?

Kim and Jim:

Are you ready for this one? Totally different topic. What do you think about AI? Ugh.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Ugh. What, what

Kim and Jim:

opinions. I have a love hate relationship with AI. I really do.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Okay. Jim, what do you love about AI?

Kim and Jim:

I love that it makes it easier. Kim, you're, are you using a photo right now? No. No. Still not. Still not. Okay. I love a photo. It's fantastic. It cuts down my work time. Great. What I hate about it is is everybody's posting photos that I have six fingers, have two heads, and I can't stand it. if you go on Facebook, you got the Lobster Jesus, and everybody's like, Oh, bless you! And I'm like, no. It's not a real thing.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I have

Kim and Jim:

what is Lobster Jesus? you guys have never seen Lobster Jesus? No. Oh,

Raymond Hatfield (2):

You have way more time at work to search the internet than I do.

Kim and Jim:

if my boss is listening, I, um, Oh, my God. definitely don't have time at work to do this.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

This was at home. Yeah.

Kim and Jim:

Yeah. You've never seen crustacean. Oh my God.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

haven't. But I'm guessing that it's a combination of the two.

Kim and Jim:

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Okay. Okay.

Kim and Jim:

Yeah. I don't know how to share my video at my screen on this, but, send you some pictures. It's wild. Maybe you can post it in the old group. Oh, should I post, should I post in the group and take my like second?

Raymond Hatfield (2):

No,

Kim and Jim:

Look at this great picture I found. I took.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I think it's funny. I feel the same way. And Kim, I don't know if, if you do as well, but it's like, there's a lot of upsides to AI one being that it can help you accomplish more work in less time. it can free up your time. It can give you more time to do more things for sure. in things like editing, communication with clients, writing copy for your website. Obviously, there's a balance there. You got to make sure that you're not sounding exactly like everybody else. You have to still make it sound like yourself. But I think that there's, that we can all agree that there's a lot of benefits to AI.

Kim and Jim:

Mm

Raymond Hatfield (2):

As far as like in photography, like I'm terrified, right? Like in two parts, like I'm terrified, not so much for me as a photographer. I'm terrified for everybody else because it's becoming impossible to tell What is an AI generated image and what is not and also vice versa like there was just what was it like this crazy? Rainstorm in Brazil or whatever they got a year's worth of rain in a day and like destroyed the city So there's this photo that was taken by like a world press photographer of 40 or 50 cars that just got swept away down this hill and they're all just in a giant pile and And Everybody's like AI, AI does it again, but it's like, this is a real image, you know? So it's not only that we're thinking that AI images aren't, or that AI images are real, but now we're losing trust in real images and thinking that they're AI. And like, that's terrifying from like a trust perspective. Like we're going to a zero trust environment, which is, Terrifying I think mainly that's the thing that I hate about AI, right, is that we're going to this zero trust environment, which, has kind of always been there like in a way through like photoshop people have always said like oh, that's photoshop That's photoshopped for a long time, but I think now We're just seeing it in a in such a different way and as you said Jim like people are creating AI art, but passing it off as a photograph, which is It's not. And that's getting scary. So that I don't like about it. but there are some things, Oh, you know what? So, now within Lightroom, like this is great. This is an AI improvement, which I love, which you can just, when you go to mask something, you can select your subject

Kim and Jim:

Yep. Yep.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

suddenly the person who's going to Crazy hair and all is like perfectly masked out and

Kim and Jim:

Yes. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

the exposure, the color, the contrast, the sharpening just on them, to make them stand out in an image. And that is something that would have taken so much time, even just like two years ago through just the brush tool, it would have

Kim and Jim:

Yeah. Yes.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

those sorts of things in AI, I like. so I guess to sum it up when it comes to tools for photographers, I love it when it comes to AI in general for the masses, for people who are not photographically literate. It's terrifying,

Kim and Jim:

Yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

this is the world that we live in. So as, Walter Cronkite would say, that's the way that the crooked cookie crumbles.

Kim and Jim:

let me bring this one up to you as well. Cause, I think they went through with it. there's a company, a very large, denim company that goes worldwide who a couple of years ago had said, they're no longer going to be hiring models. They're going to be using AI generated models in order to do their ads now. And for me, you know, that's scary because that's people losing their jobs right away. That means they're not hiring photographers either. Yeah, they're not gonna be hiring photographers, they're not gonna be hiring models, they're not gonna be hiring, lighting assistants, editors. well, probably editors. but I mean, it's all gonna be done with the click of a button, It's terrifying for me to see that. See where it's going. Hair and makeup, Sal. Hair and makeup? yeah, I mean, you can do that in any program right now, with just one click of one, and just put hair and makeup on anybody. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

hear you Jim, and I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. Their job is to make jeans and not to employ photographers. So like their whole thing is all about like cost savings, and this is a massive cost savings to them. You know, imagine how many photographers don't get the shot that they're looking for and now. They're going to be able to get it right away, you know, with AI and like, does it suck? Yeah, like it sucks for us photographers, but. what about painters? Like think back to like the late 1800s, people who painted historical photos of Kings and notable figures and like immediately photographers took all those jobs away. So I think to me, like the world is always changing.

Kim and Jim:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

have to figure out how to survive within it. And unfortunately, just cause we start out in something, say commercial portrait photography, doesn't guarantee that it's going to be around forever. And one of the, most powerful skills that you can develop as a photographer is resilience and adaptability. And we can complain about this all day long, but it's not going to make them stop. You know what I mean? Like,

Kim and Jim:

My concern

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Yeah, it does.

Kim and Jim:

My concern, thinking of it from like a family portrait photography angle, is that you can manufacture memories. Oh yeah. That

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Hmm.

Kim and Jim:

never happened. Yeah. And that's kind of a scary town thing for lots of different applications. You know, mental health wise that sounds terrifying too. Yeah. But, like you were saying Raymond, I actually think that it's kind of a cool thing because it's yet another Medium. Yeah, no, I mean, there's definitely For artists, right? But Yeah, there's definitely some, some positives to it. I use AI for quite a few things, but, you know, like I said, I have a love hate relationship with it, for sure. It's great for helping with what we're doing, but I get mad when people are just doing all of it that way. Yeah. I'm like, wait. I don't want to say there's no talent in it, because you still have to like, think of like, what prompt I want to use, how should I build that out? But really, like, it's not like you're actually doing it. You're just putting words in. Yeah. So, Yeah. I need a

Raymond Hatfield (2):

different thing. Yeah. like, I understand how it can be a version of art, but it's not a photograph, you know, that's, that's, a hard thing. So this could be something that we could talk about all day, but, I feel like I kind of summed up my points there.

Kim and Jim:

Yeah. Well, we can tie it in with the next question too, though. Yeah, I'll play with it. You want to read it? Oh, this is me again. You want me to read it? I want you to read it. I'm having a hard time reading. Okay. In the year 2024. Can you still make money from doing landscape photography?

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Ooh, well, we only got one month left in 2024. So I would

Kim and Jim:

That's true. Let's go 25.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

yeah, probably don't. But, if we're talking about 2025, yeah, absolutely. We can absolutely still make money from doing landscape photography. I think it's just, a different way that we have to go about it. I interviewed, Gary Crabe on the podcast before, and this dude is like, the landscape photographer's favorite landscape photographer, you know, I mean, there was a, I don't want to say it was a competition, but there was a, request put out from the United States post office for landscape images that they were going to put on stamps and out of 12 designs that they finally chose, I think like six of them were his, like, that is insane. That's unheard of. and he said something that I thought was really, incredible, which was, if your, composition is strong enough to stand out the size of a stamp, then it's gonna stand out the size of, like a massive canvas or whatever. So, uh, he's been doing it for a long time. And while I didn't really like get his thoughts too much on like the changing of the industry specifically with. the internet and stuff. I do think that it's totally viable to make money as a landscape photographer. Maybe not just selling your images though. I really think that like we've moved into a world where people want to feel more connected to their images and more so than just telling themselves the story of what they see in the image But they also want to know how that image was captured. They want to know what was going on in the conditions They want to know how is this image Bringing light to, maybe an environmental issue or a wildlife issue. They want to go deeper into the story. They want to buy into something that's real. And that's why we see a lot of, landscape photographers having success by doing like behind the scenes on YouTube, right? They do these whole travel vlogs of them going out to the Titans, to the Dolomites, to Iceland, and filming these month long expeditions. And all the photos that they capture and then at the end of these. Then they'll sell, some sort of, you know, a calendar or, a set of prints or a book or, a story, or they'll save it for the end of the year. Maybe they'll do, prints and stuff. So, yeah, I absolutely think that you can still make money as a landscape photographer. Maybe it's just not in the same way as before where you take a pretty picture. Put it on a canvas and then list it for 1, 200 and hope for the best.

Kim and Jim:

almost sounds like the only way to do that, then to monetize that passion, I guess, would be to have that be your only thing that you're doing and make it a social media event.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I

Kim and Jim:

can they do it outside of that?

Raymond Hatfield (2):

to go into it. I mean, the landscape photographers back in the day could really make like a legit six figure living the jobs that they did, not only because they'd be gone for such long periods of time, but also it was such high risk because it was on film. So you'd have to go out on some sort of an assignment. Like it was a thing today. That's not so much the case. It's a lot easier to capture images. You could take a weekend trip. You could just spend the weekend in your own city, or capturing things within an hour of your city, and then just posting it on. and trying to build some sort of small community in your local physical community and try to get people excited about the location in which they live. Maybe you want to get into landscape photography because you like just being outdoors anyway. So maybe share photos of the trailheads that you're starting out on and sharing information about those. But, yeah, I think that it has to be more than just There has to be a story behind it. There has to be a reason behind it. but I don't think that you have to go all in, quit your job, buy 100, 000 in YouTube, you know, uh, gear and, you know, go all in on that. But I do think that there does need to be a way for you to, get your name out there and share stories of the images that you're capturing and, why. It's important to you.

Kim and Jim:

Yeah, I

Raymond Hatfield (2):

haven't done that though. like I'm not a landscape photographer, but like, that's the way that I see others doing it and that's the way that makes sense to me that it would get done.

Kim and Jim:

I mean, I look at it, too. Like, I think people are buying it more the talent behind the lens as well. Like my wife has just started getting into Peter McKinnon and his work and you look at it and people love his work, but do they actually love his work or do they love the story that he puts behind it? Like, he just went to Iceland and I don't know, I guess like the photos wouldn't be great, on their own, but like when you put that story behind it, when you put his travel behind it, it kind of makes that connection to you. And I think that's how people are buying, these images these days. It's because they want to feel that connection to whoever, you know. So it's like buying It's buying the person. A painting. Yeah. That's a Picasso. Yeah, exactly. That's a MacKinnon. That's a MacKinnon up there.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

That's an Irish.

Kim and Jim:

Next time should we just put like a picture up here and be like, That's an Irish.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Yeah. I think that's it. I think that's the way that you'd have to do it for sure.

Kim and Jim:

Alright. I'm going to let you read this one because this is It's a long one. Yeah. It's a lot. Alright. wordy. It's It's wordy. It's wordy. Public schools. It's wordy. Do you remember the moment, or perhaps the photo, that changed your mind from, I think I can do this, to, I know I can do this? I was one ahead. I was on five. Me too. Yeah. That's what I was talking about. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I could have read That

Raymond Hatfield (2):

because you, you skipped three and four, Jim, you

Kim and Jim:

We

Raymond Hatfield (2):

five. So,

Kim and Jim:

Ah,

Raymond Hatfield (2):

the thing that you

Kim and Jim:

Start studying. I'll start reading it now.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Kim, do you have a photo that changed your mind from I think I can do this to I know I can do this?

Kim and Jim:

No, but I have several. it was actually just an experience with buying a specific lens. I bought this old grandpa lens. It's a manual focus, little 55mm, whatever. Threw it on my camera and it's a macro. And so I was out in my yard just taking pictures of everything because that's what I did for several years. And I looked around and found interesting things. And then I started looking at this collection of what I was making. And I was really surprised because if you can make just like random stuff from my yard, look good, then you can do it with pretty much anything. And so I was like, Oh, I can actually kind of do this. And then as far as like. people and weddings went. I was still pretty unsure for a while, but then I remember there was one specific wedding where I went in at the beginning of the day and I wasn't sure how it was going to go. But by the end of the day, when I got home and I looked at all the pictures, I was like, Oh, I actually earned my money today. This is worth it for them. So yeah. Nice. What about you guys? to be honest, I think it's every time I take a photo, I realized I can do this because I get bored taking the same exact picture every single time. So whenever I go out, I'm trying to do something new. but to be more specific, I think the first time I realized I could do this was the day I bought my cheap plastic, fantastic 50 millimeter lens. Yeah. the moment you go from whatever was a 3. 5 on the Canon kit lens to a 1. 8 it blows your mind just how soft it is. You're like, Oh my God, like I can be a real photographer. professional. There's blur in the background. I can focus. Once I learned how to focus and like from there, I just kind of took off. And I think that's when I realized I could do this. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I guess, did you have like a goal that you were trying to reach? What was it about those photos that made you think, oh my gosh, like there's something here.

Kim and Jim:

to be honest with you, it was more of a you don't know what you don't know type situation because I had no clue how to get that soft background, how to blow out the background. I didn't know how to separate my subject from the background and just seeing that in my camera, that was awesome to me.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Mm

Kim and Jim:

This.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

for me where, so after moving out to Indiana, so I had made the decision, going to go all in on photography and like make weddings my livelihood and the first wedding that I shot here in indiana, I remember being Because one it was maybe like the third wedding that i'd ever been to maybe the fourth wedding that i had ever been to and I didn't want to anything up. So I shot the whole day in aperture priority. And when I went to go edit those photos, like I wasn't super happy with all of them, mainly because they were like micro, settings adjustments that just made it really hard to edit all the photos in a consistent way. but overall, like I was happy with the flow of the day. I was happy with the images. That I captured as far as the connection and all that stuff was good. but really like I went to film school to learn how to a camera. You know what I mean? So it's like, I already knew the technicals. but that first wedding I was so worried that I was gonna get all the technicals wrong that I shot an aperture priority. And that made it more difficult for me. And so like, one of the next weddings that I went to, I still remember like so well. I booked this couple out, I mean it must have been a year and a half in advance. And on my way to their engagement session, it was up by Chicago. So it was like a three and a half hour drive. I'm not even kidding. I got off the exit and on my way to like the park, which was just like two miles off the exit. I got a fat tire

Kim and Jim:

Oh.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

and a half hours. this would have been I think 2012. So another part of the backstory, I had removed everything out of the rear of my trunk for whatever reason. I don't remember, I also removed the spare tire. So I didn't have a spare

Kim and Jim:

Yep. Oh, no.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I had to call AAA and I was like, Hey, can you.

Kim and Jim:

Yep.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

just FYI, because of where you're at, it's going to be about three hours. And I was like, that's not an option. So then I called the couple and I was like, hey, funny story. Can you guys come pick me up? And I was like, this is the least professional, you know, way to start this, relationship here with them. And I remember the groom was like, heard him say this on the phone. He said, can he just call a cab? And I was like, Oh God, he already hates me. This is going to be the worst day of my life. But Bride was fantastic. They came and picked me up anyway. We did the engagement shoot and it was fine anyway. Okay. So back to the wedding. I shot their wedding, in full manual because had said to myself. I know my settings, I need to prove to myself that I'm confident enough in my skills, in my abilities to be able to shoot the wedding full manual and be able to capture it in a way that I see it in my head, in the artistic way. Visual way that I see in my head and not leave it up to chance, not leave it up to auto mode on my camera, not leave it up to aperture priority or anything like that. And at the end of the day, they just celebrated their 12th anniversary or something like that. And all the photos that they posted were still mine. And I looked at them and I was like, man, I'm still proud of these images because they were mine. I took ownership. I was like on high alert because this was the first wedding that I really shot. And it turned out, great. So, I think that was really the, first moment where I thought, Wow, I'm like a real wedding photographer. Like, I'm Pinocchio. Like, I, I grew up in

Kim and Jim:

I did It

Raymond Hatfield (2):

real good. Yeah, for sure.

Kim and Jim:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

So, that's probably what it was for me. And then every time after that was just, Trying to chase that dragon, I guess you could say, right? trying to reach the same, level of excitement that you get from those photos. And, after a while it does, it kind of becomes a job. So,

Kim and Jim:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

anyway. Yeah, that's my answer.

Kim and Jim:

Jim's got a long paragraph question here for you. Oh my goodness. Just summarize it. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Wait, wait, and you know what? I think that this will be our last question. I think

Kim and Jim:

Okay.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

for the sake of time, this will be our last question.

Kim and Jim:

Okay. All

Raymond Hatfield (2):

don't screw it up, Jim.

Kim and Jim:

I got a lot to say about this one, so. It's like 700 words in this one. All right. Do you shoot weddings with a second? If so, how did you bet them? How did you match up on styles? How did you get on the same page for the day of how do you shoot the first look with a second? How do you position them when they are working the same scene with you? What is their role? Tell me all of your secrets. I'm just curious how you have navigated this and it just goes on.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Kim, you definitely have more experience with a second, so I would love to know, like, what is your process for this?

Kim and Jim:

I come at this from the backward angle on that because I was a second shooter for far more weddings at the beginning than I was the primary shooter. I really wanted to make sure I knew what I was doing before I jumped in and actually like took somebody's day into my hands. So when I'm working with a second, I always have that in mind. Like my second is not somebody that I can rely on to get. money shots of the day. I mean, they might be that person, but I'm always gonna know that I need to do that. so I shoot every single wedding as if I am there by myself anyway. And then I tell my second, like, go do something fun. Because I would much rather have that person go and create something completely different and interesting than have them Do exactly the same thing as I'm doing all day. Yeah. I work with another photographer all the time. I second for her. And she actually keeps me right with her all day. And she shoots on two cameras with dual slots. And I shoot on two cameras with dual slots. So that she can have like, what? One, two, three, four, eight copies of every photo, basically. Oh my god. Because she's very concerned about like file backups. That would make me cringe as the main photographer going through all those images that were exactly the same at the end of the day. I prefer to work with seconds like Jim who have a much different perspective from me. Obviously height wise, he's way taller than I am. A little bit. Yeah. Um, Jim's got a word put on me. Yeah. Oh yeah. Um,

Raymond Hatfield (2):

that drone shot. Just

Kim and Jim:

I know, just by standing there with my wide angle lens. But like Jim uses a lot of flash and stuff, I don't. Oh yeah. And I like working with people who have a different perspective. As far as meshing it all together, it's not that hard when people are shooting in RAW, you have a lot of freedom to change colors and to lighting and everything. It's Like exposure, obviously, not lighting. As long as the exposure's close. Yeah, and that's the thing too. If I'm working with a second who is fairly new, and I know that I'm not going to get, straight out of the camera great shots from them, like, I get more excited about that kind of a second too, because then, I know that I'm working with somebody and helping them learn stuff. I like to shout out my settings, To my second, when I know that it's somebody who's newer and I'll just be like, Hey, F one point, whatever. Shutter speeds one 500th right now. I just see it more of like a community building experience than anything else. And honestly, I don't use more than like a 10th of what my seconds give me

Raymond Hatfield (2):

right.

Kim and Jim:

because I don't want to overwhelm people anyway. Yeah. I always look at second shooters like, are we cool together? Like, can I work with you? Do we have fun? Yeah? Get your camera. Let's do this. at the end of the day, like, you're responsible for your own, your own photos, your own images. but if that second person can A, help you and bring fun to the game, game on. Let's do it. It's gotta be a person that's gonna mesh well with your couples too. Yeah. And like, represent your brand enough. Oh yeah. Maybe somebody who won't stop you from knocking over a groom.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Yeah

Kim and Jim:

I knocked over the groom on accident. Yeah. Yeah. And Jim didn't stop

Raymond Hatfield (2):

you really?

Kim and Jim:

Oh my god. the poor guy had no clue what was coming. She's just like, all right, everybody run up the groom. And they all just tackled him. They tackled him. I didn't. From now on, for every single time I have the groom with the groomsman, I'm always like, okay guys, on the count of three, do not knock him down. Now go. And I'll have you know, I did nothing to help. I laughed the entire time.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

So

Kim and Jim:

Oh, yeah, in fact, yeah Yeah. that's pretty good. Yeah Yeah, what about you Raymond you work with seconds ever

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I've shot with seconds before. but I want to know like, Kim, you said that you only use maybe like one 10th of what the second delivers. do you always shoot with a second or just if,

Kim and Jim:

No

Raymond Hatfield (2):

just if, okay. So just

Kim and Jim:

no, I When i'm working with my couples at the very beginning, I really Sit down with them and talk through what their vision is for their day And if they have a very specific reason that we might need a second photographer, then I will recommend that. Like for example, I had one couple who, they wanted to gift all of their guests like a portrait of themselves for Christmas. So I had a second there at the reception taking pictures of all the families as they were walking in. So that my couple could gift those pictures to their guests.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Perfect.

Kim and Jim:

But sometimes I have couples who really think that they want a second photographer because that is so common in the industry like when you're comparing your packages, right? It's eight hours, two photographers, you know, the same stuff. And so they are like, we really want a second. I'm like, but why? Okay. You know, like I'll charge you for it. Fine. But like, why do you think you need one? Yeah, exactly. so when I do work with the seconds, it's people that I know. yeah. And people that I like for that reason, because you have to be with them all day. Yeah. I think I would rather hire an assistant who can shoot. somebody who can bring the light stands, who can, set things up. And then in the, in the spare time have a camera. I think it's much more important than me to have that. I do have to say that my assistant is my best friend and she comes with me to everything I shoot. And she is much more valuable to me than a second would be. Yeah, I'd rather pay for that. Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Yeah. for sure. Yeah, I'm kind of the same way when it comes to having a second. I also want to know that I capture every moment of a wedding day on my own because end of the day like it's my name on the business right

Kim and Jim:

Yep.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I trust a second photographer to get a photo and they don't get it. That's still on me. that's still

Kim and Jim:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

a second has been like really beneficial is two reasons. One, if the beginning of the day, the couple are getting ready in two different locations and you just can't be there they gotta have photos of both, right? Okay. Then it makes sense. And then two to your part, Jim, when you know that it's going to be like Such a dry, boring wedding, and you just need somebody to have fun with. Like, you need somebody to not make you want to pull out all of your hair. Like, what is going on here? because they can. Like, they can really transform a wedding day. and I also think hiring somebody as an assistant, then allowing them to shoot is a better way to go about it than hiring somebody as a second shooter, because I don't need their photos. The couple probably wants their photos, and it'll be great to have some of their photos. But what would really help me Is having somebody set up lights. Having somebody bring in, this one suitcase that I have of the four that I bring into a reception. To have somebody grab an extra battery if it's, in a weird spot. or be a second eye, second pair of eyes on the dress to make sure that it's, not all folded up or anything like that. So, when it comes to having a second, it can be fun If you allow it to be, and if you don't expect. If you still go in it don't think, Oh, I have half the work to do today. And you still think like, Okay, I still have all of the work to do today. But now there's just also somebody else there. then you're going to have a good time. And it's going to be, it's going to be awesome. But also, like, I'm not shooting, massive, multi day, 500 people weddings. I would tell my couples if the wedding has less than 200 people, I'm confident that I can capture the whole thing by myself. If there's more than that. And there's more locations, then we'll definitely talk about having a second. But other than that, yeah man, just bring some more fun to the wedding day and just enjoy it because it can be work sometimes. And I had a wedding once, I don't know if I shared this story on the podcast, I was supposed to have a second photographer for this wedding and I would have given anything for them to be there, but they decided not to come. And, this wedding, I mean, they might have been, I think that they had like both just turned 18. Like they were really young. Yeah. They were really young and like, they were fun together and they were, you know, it was whatever, but they were still freshly 18, you know, and it's like they still didn't know how to like interact really with each other and like where to hold each other And it was just kind of you know, there was just there was moments like that or whatever Anyway, had decided they were going to have an open bar. That's great. Okay, you know for all

Kim and Jim:

At 18.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

well not for them but like for their guests because they understood that you know, they Had family they had large families was probably their parents paying for it, don't know. Anyway, so they had the open bar, but they said for our reception, we only want to do board games. We don't want any dancing. And I was like, oh, okay, yeah, that sounds interesting. That sounds fun.

Kim and Jim:

I'm in.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

They also had like a bunch of, like yard games set up outside cause it was like nice and kind of summery and so there was cornhole, there was like this weird frisbee game or whatever and for the first like two hours Maybe hour and a half. Like, everything was fine. People were getting along. They were playing their games. They were having a few beers. Life was good, right? I thought, hey, they're actually going to pull this off. This is going to be pretty good. The music, by the way, was just like a Spotify playlist and it was just kind of low, just playing in the background. But, like, hour two and a half rolls around. Everybody's had like four or five beers now, several cocktails. And I remember all of the ants, like the aunts and uncles, the ants were like, come over here, take photos of us, take photos of us. And I was like, okay. So I suddenly became like the family photographer for all of like the extended family. And I'm taking all these photos because I had nothing else to do. I already photographed everybody playing Frisbee and stuff like that, taking all these photos. And then one of the answers, like, How come there's no dancing here? And I was like, yeah, I don't know. I hope you enjoy the games. You know, like I'm here to support the couple and they're like, And they go inside to, like, where traditionally the dances would be, but instead there were tables for And they all just move the tables out of the way, and they crank up, September by Earth, Wind, and Fire.

Kim and Jim:

Great song.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

comes on in, which by the way, how can you not dance to that song. Everybody comes in from outside and they're all just like having the best dance of their entire life. And I remember somebody grabs the maid of honor who was sitting right next to the bride and they were all playing board games. And the couple is trying like. Not to pay attention to what's going on. They're pretending to be completely oblivious to it. Cause you can tell that they're just fuming inside. just has the best dance of their life. And then the song ends, they turn back down the music. They put all the tables right back and then they go on as if nothing had happened and nobody talked about it for the rest of the night. And I was like, I would give anything for just one other person to be here to have witnessed this. This is the most amazing, moment in my wedding career history. And, like I have photos, but just like that doesn't capture The couple didn't want those photos, you know what I mean? Like, they didn't want me to deliver photos of everybody dancing. And it was just one of those moments that you had to be there, and having a second would have been awesome for that. And yeah, so anyway. that's my spiel on seconds, so.

Kim and Jim:

Same.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

to add to that?

Kim and Jim:

No, it's a great second. I'm a fantastic second shooter, I'm an okay first shooter, but

Raymond Hatfield (2):

and they need a second shooter, Jim is your

Kim and Jim:

Jim's your guy. but maybe not. Maybe Jim should do his own weddings instead because he's actually really good at those. Yeah. You know, don't tell anybody internet. I've actually been enjoying shooting weddings lately. so yeah, yeah, I'm a pretty good first shooter, I guess. So Yeah, maybe, maybe it could be my second shooter coming up. Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield (2):

What is it about weddings that you're enjoying that is a surprise? Because you were like anti weddings for a long time.

Kim and Jim:

I was. So, Taylor Jackson, he's been on the podcast. he said it best. It's just shooting a big party. And that's all it is. There's definitely some challenges to it. Like, I hate the low light weddings where they have like the speeches going on and there's no light on them. I'm like, well, how am I supposed to get this shot? It's just raw. But like, the dancing is fun, the portraits part is fun. I love the shooting the ceremony because you can just have a lot of fun doing that and kind of doing your own thing.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Awesome. It is fun.

Kim and Jim:

Plus, you know, cake.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Cake. That's it,

Kim and Jim:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

that's the juice.

Kim and Jim:

Also, I just had the most amazing wedding food ever last weekend. It was the best filet mignon I've ever had in my whole entire life.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Mmm.

Kim and Jim:

Okay, so the last wedding I shot, we're all sitting there, and the food is taking forever. I'm not gonna say where it was, because I don't wanna piss anybody off. the food was taking forever, and as I'm sitting there, I was like, well, I ordered steak, so it should be pretty good. But then the kids menu comes out, and it's chicken tendies and mac and cheese. I'm like, first of all, I'm hungry, I want that. But second of all, I really want that instead of my steak. And the steak came out, and it was, it was okay. So I'm like, I really wanted that.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Yeah, it took so long because it's the driest steak in the world. They took forever to cook it. Yeah.

Kim and Jim:

Well, like, the steak pieces were like this big. They were like an inch. I'm like, this is, this is terrible. Like, bring out the tendies.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

I'm all for it I'm all for it. If every wedding could have chicken tenders and mac and cheese

Kim and Jim:

Yeah. No, guys.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

would just be a happier place. You know what I mean?

Kim and Jim:

Oh, yeah. Really? but then they made up for it. They had a s'mores bar and pizza and, a good time.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

It's a good time. It's a good time. Well, we reached the end. We got to five questions We got some good answers are listening and they're thinking wait a second. I want my question answered Jim, Kim, tell them what, where on the internet they can go to submit what group of photographers in Facebook the internet can they go ask questions and possibly perhaps get them answered audibly on a podcast. Ha

Kim and Jim:

they send an email to Kim at No.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Wow! I thought

Kim and Jim:

not. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

that on a silver platter to you, Jim, and once again you dropped

Kim and Jim:

Why don't we She put it together. Why don't we send people over to the Beginner Photography Podcast Facebook group where they can join us and ask questions and get live feedback. Not live, but live people. Real feedback from people who are interested. Real time ish. From people who are interested in actually helping. We have a really fun place there that we've worked really hard on creating that culture. Yeah, I love just, uh, scrolling towards the end of the night and seeing all the, great photos and questions that people come up with there. and I'll, I'll just talk forever, if I could, to everybody in the, in the group. Really, We noticed. Yeah, I know. Also, in the photography podcast Facebook group, you can find a form, I believe it's pinned, Or we can pin it if we need to. A form where you can submit questions because we will be asking Raymond a few more questions in the future. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Yay. How about we make this a monthly thing?

Kim and Jim:

Yes.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Sweet! Next time, let's get together on New Year's Eve. How does that sound?

Kim and Jim:

Uh, no.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Okay,

Kim and Jim:

do anything New Year's Eve, so why not? Raymond, me and you can have a date on New Year's Eve.

Raymond Hatfield (2):

Let's go, Jim. Let's make it happen. If you want to get your photography questions answered, head over to beginnerphotopod. com forward slash QA. Thank you for choosing the Beginner Photography Podcast. And remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.