The Beginner Photography Podcast

504: Sara Bennett: Humanizing Women in Prison Through Photography - Creating Change

• Raymond Hatfield

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In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Sara Bennett, a former criminal defense lawyer turned social justice and advocacy photographer, who shares her inspiring journey of using photography to humanize incarcerated women. Sara dives deep into her approach, emphasizing the power of storytelling and ethical considerations, and provides invaluable insights on building trust with subjects.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Empower Through Stories: Capture authentic stories; let your subjects speak through your images for genuine emotional impact.
  • Build Trust First: Establish a respectful relationship with your subjects. Trust leads to more genuine and relaxed photographs.
  • Community Connections: Leverage word-of-mouth and community engagement to find your subjects. Organic connections create deeper insights.
  • Protect Subject Integrity: Always protect the privacy and integrity of your subjects, ensuring they are comfortable with how their stories are shared.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  1. Start Conversations Before Shooting: Approach potential subjects with respect, share your project goals, and spend time talking without your camera. Write letters or emails to establish initial contact, explaining your intentions and building trust.
  2. Develop a Personal Photography Style: Engage deeply with your subject to uncover their story, taking time to understand their background. Experiment with capturing candid moments that reflect your subject's genuine emotions and experiences.
  3. Optimize Composition for Storytelling: Frame your shots to include elements that speak to your subject’s environment and context. Use written statements or captions to complement your images and provide deeper insight.
  4. Manage Ethical Considerations: Always explain how and where the photos will be used, obtaining consent for public display or media use. Avoid photographing situations or elements that could harm your subjects, ensuring their dignity and privacy.
  5. Showcase Your Work Thoughtfully: Curate exhibitions or create portfolios that prioritize the ethical representation of your subjects. Engage with audiences through guest books or feedback sections to create dialogue and empathy around your images.

RESOURCES:
Visit Sara Bennett's Website - https://sarabennett.org/

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Sara Bennett:

I thought the imagery made people all of a sudden see the humanity. All we used to see were mugshots, or, what we used to call a perp walk, somebody gets arrested and you see them, you know, at their very worst moment. And I was trying to show them in their best light in their home environments or, out working. I mean, through my documentary long term project, I was trying, trying to show something about every aspect of the system from what it feels like to be incarcerated. There's just so many pieces and I think I was well equipped to do that because I know that world, but I do think photography can be very, very, very powerful.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield. And today we are chatting with social justice and advocacy photographer, Sarah Bennett about using her camera to change the stigma of prison inmates. But first, the Beginner Photography Podcast is brought to you by CloudSpot. With CloudSpot, you can sell your photos through prints, products, and of course, digitals. You can set up a storefront in minutes and start earning more with every gallery you send. So grab your free forever account over at DeliverPhotos. com and only upgrade when you are ready. So if you go to Sarah's website, which I highly encourage that you do, I'll have a link in the show notes. You are greeted with a photo of a woman who is, she's sitting in prison, she's an older woman, she's in her 70s. The room itself that she's sitting in is, is quite bare. There's a card table. There's a collection of some books in the background. There's a TV on the wall. The woman is sitting in this maroon plastic chair. Her jumpsuit is what I would describe as forest green, and her hair is purple. She's looking at the camera, but she's neither smiling nor frowning The only emotion that you're getting from her is from her eyes. They're alert and they're looking right at you under the image is a handwritten note and the note reads This is my 27th year being incarcerated. I've been scared lonely hurt Disappointed and forgotten. I do my hair and makeup every day. It makes me feel good You But on the inside, I'm breaking down. Will I die behind these walls? It's powerful. And then you click next and next and next. And there's 19 more photos just as powerful for you to explore. You know, as photographers, we all want to tell a story, right? With, the images that we create. Today's guest, Sarah Bennett, she not only does that, but she takes it a step further and uses these stories. To create change, it's the change that she wants to see in the world. And we can all do this. So today she's going to show you how you can do the same in today's interview. We're going to talk about how to find a project that you're passionate about. We're going to talk about the biggest mistake that photographers make when they do attempt to create some sort of social justice or advocacy project. And we're going to talk about how to get your work out into the world and seen without relying on social media. I really hope that you love this one as much as I did. With that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Sarah Bennett. I want to know, when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Sara Bennett:

I think as it was evolving, it wasn't like I set out to be a photographer. I'm actually a former criminal defense lawyer, and I started using photography as, for advocacy purposes. And then people became interested in my photography, and then I became a photographer. It was kind of like that, if that makes sense. It took me a long time to embrace the idea That I was an artist or a photographer because I really thought of myself as somebody who was just using photography to show something that I really care about.

Raymond Hatfield:

So at some point did you say you're a public defender? Is that it?

Sara Bennett:

Yeah, I

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay. So you're a public defender and what is it about the camera that you thought I need to explore this a little bit more? I have to use this because it clearly what it is that you're creating is not just snapshots of your family, which I'm sure that you do, but it's something deeper than that. So when did you think to yourself, wait a second, a camera might be a tool for a problem that I have.

Sara Bennett:

So I was a public defender. I was a criminal appeals attorney, actually, which means that my clients had all been convicted of serious crimes and were in prison. And then it was my job to go back and go through the record and try to find errors. And I did that for almost 20 years. Actually really loved it. And then I did something else completely different. She wrote a book about how kids do too much homework. So, that's just like a whole different career. And then I picked up a pro bono case of a woman who had a 75 year to life sentence in New York State, meaning she had to serve all 75 years before she was eligible for parole. So she would die in prison, obviously. And her Only way of getting out of prison was if somebody could convince the governor to give her clemency. So that's a gubernatorial power as something that was very rarely used. I started this in like about 2009. Nobody talked about clemency. Nobody even knew what it was, but I had actually won a clemency in the early two thousands. And so some of the, people, women I knew who had been in prison and come home came to me and said, do you think you could try to get. Judy out of prison. So I was like, Yeah, I don't know about that. That seems like a lot of work. I'm doing something else in my life, but I thought about it. And after about six months, I was like, okay, I think I'll do this. And so I was trying to get clemency for her. And I was trying to show like this. She was a really kind of extraordinary person to people in prison. So at that time, she'd already been in prison for 30 years and she was like an elder in the prison and she was in her. I think she was about 60 when I first took on her case. And she had had a lot of influence on, the younger women who had come up through the system. And she wasn't, in some ways, not your typical prisoner. She was an old time lefty. She was, affiliated with Weather Underground. You're probably too young to know what that was, but it was like, yeah, you know. I mean, she was basically a political person who had committed a political crime and had gone to prison for, and I'm not going to sugarcoat the crime, because three people were killed. And that crime, and that's why she got such a long sentence, but anyway, that's a long answer for saying I was trying to figure out how to bring her to life I did paperwork and clemency is like a political campaign. I was always talking about her and people would invite me. I would give like, big forums. And that was, it was like before anybody knew the words mass incarceration, you know, now that's like on people's lips. But if you think back 15 years ago, people weren't talking about it. And so I did a forum once in New York city. There were probably 300 people in the audience. I was talking about Judy and clemency and the importance of clemency and why this is a power that should be used by the governor and why she was a perfect person for it. And somebody ran up from the audience who I didn't know and said, if it weren't for Judy, I would never have had a relationship with my children. I was in prison with her and she helped me navigate that relationship. And then somebody else came running up and said, if it weren't for Judy, I I would have stayed in trouble the whole time I was in prison, but instead I went back to school and I got my bachelor's degree. And now I have my master's. And so there were like three or four people who did this and you would have thought I staged it, but of course I hadn't. And for the next six or nine months, I walked around with that in my brain. And I was like, How can I? And then it just popped into my mind one day. Oh, let me take photographs of some of these women who said this and some others and I'll put together something and see what comes of it. So I invited maybe 10 women to my house and I took their portraits. My husband's a photographer. I used his camera. I put together a little book. Book, I called it spirit on the inside. It had, all the women wrote little testimonials about my client. I put together a booklet. It's like 15 pages long and I sent it to about 50 people in power in New York state. And I heard back from 11 of them, which I didn't imagine I would hear from anybody. And they were all like, this is really interesting. And that was sort of my moment. And I was like, wow, people I showed the book to would go through and go, Ooh, she looks so regular. What's she in prison for? She's got grandchildren. A lot of people had stereotypes of what people in prison are like that didn't comport with my own understanding and reality. So then I was like, oh, I'm going to start photographing, women. I asked my client, Judy. I said, do you know anybody who's coming home from prison? I want to, like, think about doing some kind of documentary project. And follow women around. And she introduced me to my first, portrait subject. Her name is Kayla and Kayla introduced me to others. And before, you know, it is like, 15 years later, my work is in major museums. So, but I didn't set out to do that. That's all I'm saying. It just, it happened. It was something, obviously my background as a criminal defense lawyer, like I really cared about over incarceration, the lengthiness of sentences that people were spending decades. decades in prison, and then they would come up for parole and they couldn't get out on parole because the parole system was so sort of stuck in the past that they would just ask people about the crime they had committed 30 years ago. Not what have you done? So that's I just wanted to show the humanity of people behind bars. And my projects are all very narrow. They're all of my subjects are women, and all of them were convicted of homicide and they all had a sentence with life on the end, meaning they never knew if they would ever get out of prison. So I was definitely wanting to highlight something in the system that, I mean, as I started, I think Obama started talking about the low level drug offenders. And as soon as he started talking about that, I was like, Oh, they're going to open the doors to the low level drug offenders and they're going to forget about all the long termers. And that's who I had relationships with. That's who had been my clients. And that's who I was getting to know.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. That is very powerful. So first question, did Judy get clemency? She

Sara Bennett:

Yeah, She did. It took, Oh, it took almost 10 years.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my goodness.

Sara Bennett:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

years from, from when you had taken those photos of her from when you had started this, wow.

Sara Bennett:

when I started.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay. several questions. I guess the first one being like, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not an attorney. I don't like this is not my world. But when I think of attorneys and lawyers, I think They're trying to paint a picture with their words. The power of the word is incredibly

Sara Bennett:

Mm hmm. think

Raymond Hatfield:

do you think that you would have been able to receive clemency if you had just used your words and continued to argue for her release or why is it the camera

Sara Bennett:

was one aspect of it that just started to bring it to light, you know? Because the photos weren't of her. They were of other people who had been incarcerated with her. So it was telling a story about her through imagery and words of other people who knew her. That was just one piece of it. And that was like the very first. Then I went on to do a documentary project on women with life sentences. And then I did something called the bedroom project where I photographed 35 formerly incarcerated women in their bedrooms. And then I went inside prison and photographed 20 women inside prison. So it was kind of like I didn't leave Judy behind, Yes, I thought the camera was really powerful. I did. I thought the imagery made people all of a sudden see the humanity. And people that they have, I mean, all we used to see were mugshots, or, what we used to call a perp walk, somebody gets arrested and you see them, you know, at their very worst moment. And I was trying to show them in. In their best light in their home environments or, out working, or I was, I mean, through my documentary long term project, I was trying, trying to show something about every aspect of the system from what it feels like to be incarcerated of how, what happens to your family, what happens if a loved one dies, what it's like to come home. How do you, get a job when, there's so many hurdles in your way, you have to admit that you're a felon, like, there's just so many pieces and I think I was well equipped to do that because I know that world, you know, but I do think photography can be very, very, very powerful. And, I sort of learned how to be a photographer as I went along. You know what I mean? Because I told you I wasn't a photographer, but I will step back a little bit when I was in my teens, I had a camera and I worked in a dark room and I used to walk around with a camera, but then I just kind of forgot about it. My husband's a really amazing photographer he's an art photographer, the more he became immersed in photography, you know, the more that was his sphere and I left it alone. So, but when I came back to doing this. I say I'm untrained, but actually I'm kind of trained by him because I would go out and take photos and I would come home and I would have like 150 photos and he would sit with me and we would talk about them. This is good. You need to do more of this or, you know, you just sit through them. And I had an editor there who we would just talk about it. And so, in terms of how the projects came together, that was pretty much my own vision. I knew kind of. I didn't know how it was going to work through photography, but, I do feel like I'm a storyteller and I was a journalist before law school. And my book about homework was a whole deep dive in the journalism world. So I had those skills. It was just a different arena. I don't, I still don't think I'm that great. I don't know my camera that well still. I mean, I know it well enough, you know,

Raymond Hatfield:

you say that but your images are Make an impact, right? And at the end of the day, like, when it comes to photography, I honestly think that the ends justify the means, right? Like, if it's a powerful photo, it doesn't matter if it was taken on a cell phone. It doesn't matter if it was taken with a Polaroid. It doesn't matter if it was taken with the most expensive camera and lenses and all of that stuff. And I think that's what's most interesting about your situation is because you're coming at it from a direction that most listeners don't, most listeners think to themselves, I'd like to be able to tell a story with my camera. So they want to learn everything about photography and then telling

Sara Bennett:

And then they go look and then they go look for a story, you know, and a lot of times people do look for a story and they're like, Oh, that's interesting. Maybe I'll do something about incarceration, or maybe I'll do something about some other social issue. I do think that, If people want to do photography around social issues, you have to really know it because you don't want to do harm to the people that you're photographing. And there were so many places along the way that I felt like if I didn't have the long view, it could have been harmful to the women. I was particularly the women who were inside prison because they're hoping to get out. And as, as you know, in my work, I always incorporate their handwritten statements. And then that handwritten statement is going to follow them forever. And so it's very important what it says, right? And it's not that I told them what to say, but one of the women, the statement she sent me said she was innocent. And so I said to her, You know, you may be innocent, and one of my specialties was wrongful convictions. So, I'm not skeptical or anything. She may have been innocent, but she was a year or two from going to the parole board, and they don't like it when you say that you're innocent. They want you to take full responsibility for what you've done. And so I said to her, you know, you're just a year or two away from your parole hearing, and if you're lucky, maybe you'll get a lawyer to represent you, and I don't know, maybe they're going to Want you to take responsibility for it might be easier than saying you're innocent. So let's just not say that you're innocent write about something else and so she did. And when she went to the parole board, it turned out that I looked up her case and it was a terrible case. And I actually found somebody to represent her because she had gone with somebody to a crime and she had just had a baby. She was like five days earlier and she was in the back of the car and she fell asleep. And she was asleep while somebody went into some, House and killed somebody and came back out and many years later, she was picked up for it. Like, I can't remember anymore, but it was almost like 20 years later. So she had lived a whole life. And then they offered her a plea deal of two to six years, meaning if she had taken the plea, she would have spent at maximum four years in prison, but she wouldn't take the plea because she didn't understand the concept of felony murder, and she didn't understand how she could possibly be guilty and her lawyer at the time. I think didn't quite explain it to her and she didn't understand it. So she did think she was innocent. So I discovered all this. And I was like, this is insane. And so I found a lawyer for her and she went and she, had to take responsibility for, going to something and being asleep in the car and she got out. But if she had said she had been innocent. it could have messed that up for her. And if you hadn't had my background, you wouldn't have known that. And so I think that's something people have really have to think about when you're going, and especially like I was spending a lot of time going into shelters where some of the women were living, and there's a lot of rules and stuff, and you don't want to ever. depict somebody violating some rule, you know, because you don't know where your work is going to go, you know, and if you're lucky like me and your work goes out in the world, you don't want to be portraying things that, that could be harmful to the people that you're photographing.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, that's so interesting. One of the issues that's been around for a while is like nature photographers going out and taking these beautiful photos of nature, but actually the way in which they got those photos, the way that they got there, the way that, maybe they shared the locations they're causing more harm by either the way that they just trek within the wilderness or by bringing awareness to these places that aren't yeah. Made for a lot of people that now people are going to and now destroying the landscape itself. and that's something that I hadn't really thought of, but it makes sense because me not again, not being an attorney, like I hear her story and I think, wow, she's definitely innocent. Like she definitely didn't murder somebody. And I could see how somebody would create some sort of title called like the innocence project or something like that, and then promote this. And yet that wouldn't be factual because I guess you're saying that by, by the law. Whatever she was, convicted of,

Sara Bennett:

If you if you accompany somebody and they commit a crime, you're equally culpable. I mean, that's what felony murder is. I mean, it's, a doctrine that people are trying to get rid of. Because it's, crazy. And there's a couple of states that have actually gotten rid of that, type of crime. But, most states still haven't.

Raymond Hatfield:

So then let me ask like, for you, if you, let's say 10, 15 years from now, when you look back at your body of work, what do you hope that it accomplishes?

Sara Bennett:

Wow. Well, you know, I have my own views about incarceration, but what I really wanted people to take away from my work is to think about the people who are behind bars and kind of ask themselves, like, do I think somebody? Who does something belongs in prison for the rest their life. Do I believe in rehabilitation? Do I believe that people can change? do I think that if we lock people up, we should treat them humanely, or am I fine with the fact that we have these, max prisons or super max prisons where people don't see the light of day? Or do I believe in solitary confinement? I just want people to think about that. Yeah. And then if they're not okay with it, then, I guess, I don't know, vote for policymakers or, think about legislation that might change those things. You know, we're pretty polarized right now as a country. On the one hand, in the incarceration field, I feel like, I think there's been a lot of changes. For the good in the last, I would say, five years, like of the women I photographed, I photographed 20 women in prison and 14 of them have come

Raymond Hatfield:

Hmm.

Sara Bennett:

And when I photographed them five years ago, I think I would have expected maybe only one of them to have gotten out. But the policies around parole have changed and so they're no longer going back and saying, tell us about the crime you did 30 years ago. They're now saying, show us what you've done for the past 30 years. And then they're letting people go and there was a new domestic violence law that was passed in New York state where anybody who has a domestic violence background is allowed to go back into court and that's used as mitigating circumstance. And so a lot of the women's sentences have been reduced. So there's been a lot of change. And that's, that's what I would like to see. I would just like to see, I mean, it used to, I don't know. I was just get so upset and it would drive me crazy. Somebody would get a sentence of 20 years to life. And then the next thing, you know, they'd already done 30 years and they were like, the most revered person in the prison and, nobody who worked within the prison system thought that they needed to be there. They basically were running the place and yet there was, you know, a couple of Usually old white guys who are sitting up passing judgment on them and not letting them go. And it's expensive and, you know, one of the women I photographed had 20 years to life. She was the cook in the prison. she ran the, you know, the prison cafeteria for decades and they wouldn't let her go. And she ended up spending 30 years and then she got deported because she wasn't an American citizen. So like, when you think about the amount of money just financially, it costs a couple hundred thousand dollars a year to incarcerate somebody. Like it just doesn't make any sense. So that's kind of, I want, I just want people to be, more educated themselves and to think about the humanity. And a lot of times, I mean, crimes are, you know, sensationalized, but there's usually a lot more to them than what the general public knows. there's just, there's a lot, a lot more to it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Well, on top

Sara Bennett:

I, I mean,

Raymond Hatfield:

the whole legal system is very confusing for people who are not in it as well. So it's very easy to, spin a story, which I understand, and it, it's gotta be a very difficult job for you. so is there some sort of, because you mentioned earlier with Judy, you said that you didn't wanna, like water down her crime because what she did did end up, resulting in the murder of, several people. I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this question. Is there some sort of way that you, determine maybe who you will photograph depending on their crimes? Or is it purely about the humanity of where they're at today? Talk to me a little bit about that.

Sara Bennett:

my only criteria was the person had to be a woman and have had a life sentence, so that meant that their sentence was the minimum that ever could have been was 15 years to life because that's the minimum. So they had to have spent, you know, at least 15 years in prison. And then after that, I didn't care what the crime was. I never asked them. A lot of people shared with me what it was, but it didn't matter. To me what it was. And I was, as you'll notice, I never tell any of the details of any of the people's crimes and I don't use their last name. So they're like a little bit anonymous because, but I do say that it was a homicide because a homicide is a very serious crime, but yeah, I, there's nothing that I went in touch, and so the woman I photographed had done everything from kill an abuser to kill a child, you know, and everything that goes, you know, Along the way.

Raymond Hatfield:

So I think As an artist, as a photographer, in a way, you're giving somebody a voice, like with your camera, especially by allowing them to, write out their own statement, which I think is so beautiful. And I have a question about that for sure. But, is there ever any, concern about possibly giving Mm hmm. The wrong person of voice or am I asking the wrong question here? Does that make sense at all?

Sara Bennett:

Oh, I know what you're saying. I don't think that that would be up to me to decide. I mean, maybe you're saying like, is somebody a sociopath? Would you give a sociopath a voice? you know, the project is a little bit self selecting because. it's a lot of word of mouth, how I find people's word of mouth. So they know each other in general. I think the women I photographed have all, been somewhat successful in their re entry, not everybody, but there, a lot of them did very well inside prison and have done well when they're coming home. I'm not going to judge. They've been judged so many times in their lives. Everybody changes. That I believe that everybody changes or everybody has the capacity to change and people who've been incarcerated with Spindle, they work on themselves like nobody else I've ever met, they have a lot of therapy and they have a lot of groups and they have a lot of time I mean, I've never heard anybody really minimize what they've done. They always say that that's like becomes a little bit part of who they are and they have to, it's something they think about, they have to deal with it. So it's very like, it's kind of heavy, you know?

Raymond Hatfield:

can imagine. kind of have, I don't want to say two audiences, but like there are the people from the outside. And the way that you portray these women in prison is, is very humanizing. And, as a man, I feel like I can connect with these women and some of the words that they're saying, because what they're saying is just fundamentally very human things. But at the same time, you're also photographing women. These women, and I wanna know, like how do you get them to, what am I trying to say here? Not, not open up. It's not open up.

Sara Bennett:

Yeah, I think that maybe, trust me.

Raymond Hatfield:

because I would think, from their perspective, it might be scary to open up. It's scary to feel like they're being judged scary, to feel like they're putting themselves in another very vulnerable situation. Especially if, as you said, maybe. they had, abusers in their life and now then to be photographed and put out there kind of in the public could be a very scary thing. how do you come into these women's lives and show them what you're doing? And is there any sort of promise of like, cause as your goal was with Judy to help her get clemency, is there any sort of, hope that you're leaving these women with? Is there anything like that?

Sara Bennett:

This is a really good question.

Raymond Hatfield:

one. So I apologize. Tackle it however you need to.

Sara Bennett:

No, no, no, no. no. It's a good question. so because by the time I photographed inside prison, I had already photographed probably 20 something women outside of prison. And. You know, I knew Judy. I had been lawyers for a couple of the other women on the inside. People knew me. I mean, people also knew me when I was a lawyer as I was like the lawyer who came in and like kind of got to know my clients and was really empathetic. And so I kind of had a reputation that preceded me. and in some ways I had access, but I didn't know most of the women I photographed. So the way I worked is I wrote to them and I said, you know, I'm a photographer. This is what my, some of my work has been. This is the project I'm wanting to do next. Would you be interested if you are, I will come and see you without my camera. So I went and visited every single person who I photographed. And, you know, spent probably like two hours with them in the visiting room, just talking and getting to know them a little bit. They got to know me a little bit. And then, I mean, I had to jump through a lot of hoops to get permission to go into prison. Believe me, like that was at a certain point, I was almost ready to stop. It was so difficult. Awful and difficult. But anyway, I kind of, I got to know them a little bit like that. I didn't promise them anything. I honestly didn't think I was going to get to know them any better than the one time I visited them, photographing them, and then a little bit of letter exchange around. What the writing would be, and I told them just to write on a piece of paper, and I told them the dimensions I wanted, because I was visualizing what the prints would look like on the wall. And if I ever made a book, what size? So they had to write it twice and 4 by 6 and 3 by 11 and. I didn't have that much communication with most of them because it was letter writing and letter writing is, it's a process. And then the work started getting attention and it came out, it was in the New York times. And so I sent them all copies of the times and then it was reviewed somewhere. And then I had an exhibit in Brooklyn at this place called photo bill where like a hundred thousand people pass through. And I had little notebooks. Like guest books for the women with their name and picture on it. And I had viewers write little notes to them. And then I sent those to them and then email came into the prison. And so then the communication became easier and I started to get to know them all. A lot better. So almost all of them, I had some kind of writing relationship with. It became a little overwhelming,

Raymond Hatfield:

I bet.

Sara Bennett:

So, you know, and then sometimes some of them, I found lawyers for them, and then I wrote letters of support for them. So I got to know them a lot better than I ever imagined I would. But, I think that they felt protected by me. In some way that they knew I wouldn't harm them. I asked them every single time before the work goes anywhere. I always said to him, I can't take it back. In other words. If I submit your photo to the times, then it's in the times. I can't take it back. But moving forward, I'll ask you and they all have written me so many times and say, please stop asking me. You can just hang my work wherever wherever you want it. It's fine. And it's like in the collections of a couple of museums now. And the same thing I wrote and I was like, this means it's there for posterity and are you okay with that? So I think the communication has been very. And I feel really good about it because, I've been doing this work, this photography work in this area now for, I think, 12 years, and not one of the people I photographed has ever been mad or upset or anything. So, it's something I was very cognizant of. And, but I think I was, I'm also super reliable, like, I understood that the importance of that. Oh, and after I had that exhibit at Photoville, then a lot of people wanted to be pen pals with the women. And so then I would ask them, do you want to set up, do you want to be, do you want to have a pen pal? But then I would write to the person who wanted to be a pen pal. And I was like, if you're going to do this, You have to keep it up. It's not, you can't come into somebody's life for three months and then say, this is too much. So, I think most people did not stick with it the way I had hoped they would, but some did,

Raymond Hatfield:

I really appreciate you sharing that. And I think that what stands out to me is that you came in with an intention of truly being helpful. and I think a lot of times photographers might come in from a different perspective of how can. I take a great photo. How can I, you know, and it's very, I don't want to say self centered, but essentially it's very self centered. Whereas for you, it wasn't about you at all. Like, in fact, as you've kind of said before, you let the women make a statement for their images. You don't say anything about it yourself. And that to me, I think stood out. I think that to me was as powerful as the photograph.

Sara Bennett:

the handwriting is really important. I have to say that I, one time entered a contest. Without the handwriting, like it wasn't I was just images and I actually won the contest. I can't remember what it was. And I was like, oh, people appreciate my photography too. It's not because I was still always grappling. I mean, I definitely have a style. I mean, I should I don't want to put down my photography because I definitely have a style and you can say that's a Sarah Bennett photo and it doesn't matter whether it's. Whatever it is, like I'm doing a new project on women over the age of 90 who live alone, it's the same style. No, no, no, no, no. They're just women who are old, old, old and still independent. And actually, in some ways, it's. Sometimes a little more depressing because they don't have any hope left. Their life is just getting narrower and narrower and narrower where the women inside prison have the hope of their world's expanding. But you can tell by looking at those photos that they're the same. It's the same photographer. So I definitely have a

Raymond Hatfield:

well, let's just go right there. one of the questions that I ask often on the podcast is tell me how you approach a photograph, what sets you apart from other photographers? what is it that you put in an image that when you pick it up or when somebody else picks it up, they say, this is a Sarah Bennett photo.

Sara Bennett:

I think there's two things. My photos are all environmental. I'm really interested in the environment that people choose and even if it's like in the bedroom project, a lot of people, like some people just had a bed and a shelter and like no more than that, but you still express something about yourself in the clothes that you choose to wear and how you do your hair, your nails, whatever, and whatever you put on the walls. So I think that. Is a way of showing more about somebody than just, you know, a headshot. I never touch anything when I come in a place, how it is, is how it's going to be. Although I might open the shades to get more light, or I might, use a flash or something

Raymond Hatfield:

But in prison, you don't as

Sara Bennett:

In prison,

Raymond Hatfield:

open up shades and whatnot, or like, I guess how much, I guess I'm trying to wrap it all together because I know that you did the bedroom

Sara Bennett:

in, prison, did I ever open a shade? I think maybe I was allowed to, I'm not sure. I just have like a on camera flash too. Like I'm not very flash heavy. It's more because. I'm a little intimidated by it and also the all the spaces I go into are really teeny, like really teeny. So a lot of times, however they're sitting, that's because that was the biggest distance I could get away from them. You know, I couldn't go out the door. There was, you know, sometimes there's only maybe a foot and a half between me and the bed or something like that. Oh, the other thing is, is I actually, my subjects are serious. And so it's very rare for me to show somebody smiling. Although I have a few times, but I want somebody to be really relaxed. So I guess I think. If anything, that's where my, I don't know if it's my secret or I think what I'm good at is getting people to relax and it's because we talk a lot and so they're comfortable. And, a lot of times I let people, they like to vamp for the camera at first. And so I'll take a lot of photos like that and sort of try to get it out of their systems. And so that then I can get the photo I want. but, you know, when you're putting together a series and you're the editor of it, there's so many photos you could choose from any shoot. Right? And but then you put them all together And there's almost like a vibe that you're, portraying. And I'm actually in the process now of, making a book of all this work. And I'm working with an editor who's doing the first, the first pass. And he's looking at my whole archive, all of it. And I'm both nervous and super excited to see, because I had to go back through my archive. And I sent him like 7, 000 images. and I started to look through and I was like, wow, I could have chosen this one and it gives a different sense. And one of the women I photographed, a very young woman, I think that day I photographed her in prison, I don't think I had more than about two and a half minutes. That's all they gave me. And so I didn't have very many to choose from, and I chose one. And then I got to know her. She started to write me a lot, and she was so vibrant and in charge, and she was amazing. And I went back through my photos, and I was like, let me see if I have a photo that That shows that more. And I found something and I switched it to something that I, that I liked a little bit better. So that was one of the few times I did that. Mm-Hmm?

Raymond Hatfield:

Well, so that right, is a subject showing their vibrancy. choosing an image that allows the subject to be perceived as more vibrant, more true to themselves. You going in and just talking with these people to have them relax. Those are the things that. Make a great photo great like because none of those have anything to do with camera settings None of those have anything to do with what lens you used, I don't care if you used a wide angle lens, which I'm sure that you did because you were in a tight space I don't care what camera you used that is part of

Sara Bennett:

Yeah, It's a Fuji just in

Raymond Hatfield:

right on. Yes team Fuji. Yes that's the stuff that I think new photographers need to hear is that if you're gonna make images that are going to stand out It has to be more than just the gear that you use and for you, so your style, you know, sure it may include, your use of light, but just coming in, talking to these people, making them feel heard, making them feel comfortable. That is. Part of your style. And that's beautiful that you have discovered that.

Sara Bennett:

if you're interested in portraits, then you look at lots of portraits. I mean, I live in New York City and my husband and I go on what we call these like art walks at least once a month. And we've been doing that forever. So long before I took up photography, we've been doing that for decades. And so, like, I know what I like. and it can be photography. It can be any kind of art sculpture, whatever, you look at photography, I'm a, um, contributing editor to this website called Lens Scratch. Do you know

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm not

Sara Bennett:

oh, Lens Scratch is great. It has like, it features a different photographer every day of the week. It's been doing it for like 17 years. And so every day, like in my inbox, there's a new photographer. And so you read their story and you look at it and you. You know, you get ideas from what you see and then you develop your own your own

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah I appreciate you sharing how Photographers can start to find their own style because that's definitely something that the people struggle with but I got a few last questions For you as we are coming close to the end of our time here. I want to go back to The choice that you made to have women in your life Tell their story to tell their side. what is the process for that? Like, I guess one, why do that as opposed to just you putting a narrative or a caption, to what is the process for that? Like, do they see the photo before they write it? I was going to ask if they write it while you're taking the photos, but it sounds like that, that's not the case. And then, Do you do any sort of, specific questioning to get them to answer in a way that is short and succinct and will fit under a photo?

Sara Bennett:

So in my first project which was called life after life in prison I did not have the women Use their handwriting. I had captions that went along out of because I was always interviewing them when I started the bedroom project I was in a gallery and I saw some handwritten statement accompanying You know a photo it was about poverty it wasn't on the print itself. It was on the wall. And I thought, oh, handwriting, that's a really good idea. So that's, that's why I did that. I asked really open ended questions. So for the bedroom project, I just said, how do you feel when you're in this space? That's very open ended. And for the women inside, I said, what do you want the outside world to know? And then I worked differently with different people. Some people just wrote me the statement and sent it on the on the size of paper. And that was that some people took a lot more work than that. And in some ways, it depended on whether they were writers or even almost how literate they were. So some of them I would just interview. Or the women in prison, like maybe they wrote me a letter and it was like four pages long about all the things they wanted to say. And then I took out a couple of sentences and moved them around. I never changed a word, but I just, edited it down and then I would send it back and I would be like, how's this? So, and then they might say, yes, that's great. Or maybe they would change it. And it was a little bit the same with the women on the outside, but the women on the outside, because I was there. If they didn't, and it takes a long time, believe it or not, to write those statements and get to like, half an hour. we would talk and if they didn't have an idea of what they wanted to write, I would either say, do you want me to leave it with you? Or do you want to talk about it? Usually I want to talk about it. And so I would sit there and I would write down all their words and I would read them back to them. And then, you know, you start to see a theme. and then I would put it together and I would read it back to them. And so it was, it was a process.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. Well, that's something that I think the majority of people who are starting out on a project might not put in that additional work, right? There's kind of this idea that, well, the photo should speak for itself. That's

Sara Bennett:

yeah, I think, yes, I mean, it's because I wanted people to know the women had a lot to say and what they say is very varied from those very open ended questions. It's all over the place. And I mean, now when I interview somebody, like if I, cause I'm always adding to the bedroom project, they already know what it is. The work is out there. They can see it on the web. They know that there's handwritten statements that go, along with it. But for the first 20, they had no idea. Until they saw everybody together, each person was doing it on their own. So, I loved how varied it was and, there was this incredible sense of hope and resilience in the women on the outside, no matter if they were living in a shelter, they still had this, this sense of hope. incredible, feeling of freedom and making life count. I mean, it was really, it's really incredible. And then the women on the inside, there's so much desperation in those. There's a lot of like, does anybody know I'm here? Does anybody care about me? And so. When I sent them those guestbooks from Photoville, I heard back from everybody and every single person told me they cried. They were like, I had no idea that anybody would care anything at all about

Raymond Hatfield:

Hmm. wonder how much of that is, just the, I don't want to say lack of, yeah, I mean, just public knowledge, like as you were, I mean, I guess that's just a bigger part of this, this whole thing, right? the systemic, problem,

Sara Bennett:

I mean, I didn't know that. I didn't know that people would. The first time I showed at PhotoVille and people went in and they sat there and they read like every, they spent time in my container. A lot of times people come in a container and they go out in five seconds. Almost everybody came in and then they read everything. 20 images and they would stay there and then they would want to talk to me. And I always had a formerly incarcerated woman with me who they could talk to. And I never, ever expected. The kind of reaction that I got and when I did, I was like, wow, like it really felt powerful and I, didn't know that that's what it would be.

Raymond Hatfield:

Why do you think that there was such a strong reaction to your

Sara Bennett:

I think people related to the people in the, in the images. I think that they could relate to them as somebody that they would know, and then they would look at it and they'd see somebody was. Sent to prison for 15 years at the age of 15, like, we do that to like a young girl? I mean, and I could have done men and I, and there could have been the same level of sympathy, I think, or empathy for the men as there would have been for the women. I just chose women because I think they're a part of the system that's forgotten. And it's also a certain comfort level to me. I'm going into people's, you

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah,

Sara Bennett:

I was more comfortable.

Raymond Hatfield:

well, let me ask now about because I was looking at your images. And again, I did the same thing on your website. I read through every single one and thought. This is incredible. Again, very humanizing, but from a technical standpoint, what were some of those restrictions in prison? What is it like how do you even get a camera into prison? My first thought was that you were possibly like you were working with them as their attorney or, legal guidance or whatever, and you were allowed to bring it in. This isn't the case. So this is way harder. It sounds.

Sara Bennett:

Oh, it was really, really hard. I first asked, I said, I wanted to photograph inside the cell and they were like absolutely not, not, never. You'll never get photographed in the cell. And I was like, it would be a good corollary to the Bedroom Project. Who's your supervisor? And they're like, I'm the top. No way. You can photograph people in a conference room, and I was like, that would be really boring. Do you think I could photograph elsewhere? And eventually, I don't know. I mean, I downplay it. My husband always says don't downplay it. It took you so much work to get inside. It really took a lot of work. At one of the prisons, the women didn't get my letters. They were deemed contraband for some reason. Then I went to visit them and then the prison wouldn't let me in. And it's like a, five hour round trip for me and I didn't get to see anybody. I mean, there was a lot of stuff that went on, but eventually I did get permission. I did get permission for the workspaces. So I think the prison thought it was a workspace project, but it wasn't, although I'm actually in an exhibit in London, England right now about work for the first time. So some people see it as a work. I was guarded. So, first of all, I had to send to the prison, like, A list of all the equipment. And I would say, I want to photograph so and so, so and so, and so and so in these places. And then they would say, okay, and then I would get there and it might take me three hours to get into the prison. And they would go through, I had to like take my camera apart to tell them the list, like down to the strap, you know, the strap, the battery, the how many cards I was going to bring in, everything. And that's also why I work with so little equipment because It's a lot. And then I would go there and sometimes whoever, I had like a sort of a civilian coordinator and guards both because it was a maximum security prison. So there were usually at least three people with me and it depended on who it was, whether, like I said, one day I got two minutes with somebody. And I did four people that day and I think the longest I got with anybody was about 10 minutes. And then another time I went and the person was way more relaxed and I got like half an hour with each person. I never knew what I was going to get. One time the guy told me to come to the prison at 8. 30 in the morning, which meant I had to leave my house at 6. And then I'm like on my way on the train and he calls me and goes, sorry, we can't do it today after all. So, or then I get there and he tells me come at eight 30 and I was like, do you mind if I come at 11, he's like, no, come at eight 30. So I get there at eight 30 and all the other guards are like, why are you here so early? You know that we're not going to let you in until 11. I said, I know, but so and so told me I had to be here at eight 30. And I've been trying to get in for a whole year now to do a five year follow up, and I can't get back in. And it's, they say, and it's true, that the prison is understaffed right now. I think after COVID, a lot of people left, and and I can't get back in. So I feel lucky that I got in. And after I had photographed 18 people, the very head of the Department of Corrections Media called me and he goes, hi, I'm so and so I'm and I said, I know who you are. How are you blah, blah, blah. I'll never forget. He goes, I've been tasked with figuring out what you're doing. In my brain, I'm thinking, I've been into the prison now probably eight times. I photographed 18 people, and now you guys are trying to figure out what I'm doing. So I told him, and he goes, well, they're tired of you, so no more. And I was like, do you mind if I just come back one more time? I said, you know, 20 is a series, but 18 is an odd number, you know, cause he's a media person. He was like, oh, okay. And I think they kind of liked the project. I showed it in the legislative building in Albany. So that's like the capital of New York state. And somebody from that department came and came and heard me talk and looked at the photos. I mean, the prison doesn't look that bad in my photos,

Raymond Hatfield:

I didn't think so. Looking at any of the photos, I didn't think,

Sara Bennett:

yeah, it doesn't look that bad, but it was very, stressful. And I got to the point where I, I didn't want to go back anymore. And then, my daughter at the time was, maybe like 24 or something. And she was like, you have to keep on going. And I was like, Will you come with me? And she was like, yeah, I'll come. So I took her as my assistant one day, just kind of as a, I mean, she's an artist, as emotional support. And that kind of got me back into, to going, because it was just really, really stressful.

Raymond Hatfield:

I bet.

Sara Bennett:

yeah, I was lucky, though. I did get to do

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, and I'm thankful for that

Sara Bennett:

and I persevered. That's the thing. It's like you have to persevere and you just take never take no for an answer. Basically.

Raymond Hatfield:

this will be my last question for you from the capturing the photo side to the actually getting your work out there side, because again, I would be willing to bet that there's a number of people who, pushback on, well, they haven't had a lot of time to these people are in prison for a reason. We don't need to share this. We're not interested in this, things like that. How did you persist in getting your work out there? Because you have, and it, uh, it has definitely made a difference.

Sara Bennett:

well, I did it And I did it in different ways. Originally, I had a lot of exhibitions in, like law schools and universities and community spaces and so that was me going out and looking for For, and then that was with the full my 4 original documentary subjects and we would have a panel to conversation and it was in spaces that were relatively safe spaces and I sent it to places like, oh, I went to a portfolio review and I met somebody from the New York times. And so that's how it ended up in the times. And, um. You know, then it went to other kind of media places. There was a while where I just entered contests, every contest that there's this site called PICTER, P I C T E R, that has like all the monthly contests. And so my advice to everybody is I had like a short artist statement and a long artist statement. I had all my images prepared and I would just, Basically submit to any contest that was free and I started to win a lot of them. So then my work kind of got out there like that. And then there was a big show called Marking Time Art in the Age of Mass Incarceration that was at MoMA PS1. And my work was there. And I think that brought my work to the attention of other curators. And so I ended up in an exhibit in like the Museum of the City of New York. And I was at the Cantor Museum at Stanford University. And now, and I've been in several places in Europe. I mean, I think my work is just out there now, but, in the beginning, I really pushed it out there. I don't really look for anything anymore. I'm lucky. It kind of comes to

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Sara Bennett:

but I definitely like people spend too much time on their applications. And so my advice is don't, just don't do that, like write something really good. And if they ask for 500 words, you give them your short statement, whether it's 200 or 500, and if they ask for a thousand words and you give them your next level of statement. So there, you're just always ready and then decide whether it's worth it. And I kind of like the museum shows because you're like, I was in this, museum show called day jobs, and it's about, you know, Artists whose work came out of whatever their day job is. And there's really famous artists in there like Andy Warhol or Saul DeWitt or, and then there's me, you know? And so people who are coming to that show are seeing art, like just so many different mediums and, Everything. And then they come across my work and they're not expecting it. And then they're learning something from it. And that's, that's a really different venue than a law school where they're already expecting to hear from a former defense attorney, you know?

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure. Sure. why do you think, why was Facebook and Instagram not enough?

Sara Bennett:

Oh, I haven't been on Facebook in forever.

Raymond Hatfield:

Fair enough.

Sara Bennett:

And I barely use Instagram. Mostly I use Instagram to see where my photographer friends are having shows. It's like such a terrible place to show photos. Like they're teeny, nobody can really see them.

Raymond Hatfield:

I know. Well, I guess I asked that because most listeners when they asked, you know, how do we get our workout? How do we get our workout? It's always followed by, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, like, I'm out of ideas, I guess I wanted to get to the point of, you know, you're talking about, you got to get out there, you got to share your work, you got to be in person, you got to get eyes on these photographs,

Sara Bennett:

Well, and I think for me, because I knew, like, I wanted mine to be in the state legislature, and it was, and it was in the courthouse in New York City, and it's actually in the Department of Justice in Washington, D. C., like, that's a place where it can have impact on the people in the system who have a possibility of changing it. So, like, if judges are walking through the courthouse. And they see these photos and they stop and see them, then the next person who comes in front of them becomes more than just like that body in front of them or a number. It's like, oh, I just saw people in the same situation. They're real human beings. And so that was like, where I, I mean, when my work. It's in the department of justice. It's been there for three years. That's like exciting to me because those are the people who are going to make change in the system. You know, so find your venue, find your venue, whatever it is.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. I just wanted to say, thank you so much for coming on today.

Sara Bennett:

you asked me really great questions. I really enjoyed this.

Raymond Hatfield:

well, thank

Sara Bennett:

I'm sorry if I went on

Raymond Hatfield:

no, no, no, no. this is just such an interesting thing. There's so many people who want to make change in the world with their camera. And, as somebody who's doing it, I really appreciate you sharing, just your sliver of information, your view of the world with listeners. And I know that listeners right now are thinking to themselves, That sounds incredible. I'd love to see some of these images. So can you share with us, Sarah, where would be the best place to find you and your photos online?

Sara Bennett:

Oh, my, my website, sarahbennett. org.

Raymond Hatfield:

Well, Sarah, again, thank you so much for coming on. I do appreciate all your time today and sharing everything that you did with the listeners.

Sara Bennett:

great. Well, thank you.

Raymond Hatfield:

All right, let's go ahead and recap what we learned today from this interview with Sarah, which, by the way, huge thank you to Sarah for coming on and being so open and sharing this story. So the first takeaway is to build trust with your subjects, trust is, it's essential if you are going to photograph somebody, anybody, but especially those in vulnerable or marginalized groups, right? You really have to approach them with openness and an empathy, honestly. So start your communications by being clear, by being transparent about the intentions of your project, about where it's going to go, what you hope to accomplish. Sarah said that she would walk in and meet her subjects for the first time without a camera. I can say that I did the same thing at weddings. because when there's a camera in the room, everybody kind of just the alert level goes up a bit. So if you want to be able to create images that genuinely capture who somebody is, you need to, get that face to face time before the camera ever comes out. Maybe it's not much. Maybe it's five or 10 minutes. Like I did at weddings, I introduced myself. I say, Hey to everybody. And then I say, I'm going to go grab my camera. I'll be right back just so that they can, mentally prepare themselves. Or maybe it's an entire visit before you go back and actually photograph them, but whatever it is, you got to figure that out and then keep your promises and then continuously communicate the update and progress somebody has given you their time. and they've been open and vulnerable with you to allow you to photograph them. You need to do your part and, tell them the update on the images that you were able to create with them. And on that note, don't come into it thinking about what you are going to get out of it. You really need to approach a project like this with a genuine desire to simply use your camera to help. And honestly, people's BS meter is pretty good. They'll be able to read, if that's not your true intention, Take away number two is that patience and persistence will help you overcome your challenges, capturing images in any sort of, restrictive setting means that you're only kind of able to create, whatever you're given, right? It's not entirely up to you. So if you're working on a project, you got to create a detailed plan and then anticipate for any sort of delays and then stay as flexible as possible. Also, I really, really, really love Sarah's, approach to adding and incorporating the handwritten notes. That she collected, she wasn't able to get as much time as she wanted with her subjects, but adding this layer of their own handwriting, really, allowed for a more, emotional impact with the images. And you can do the same. So figure out kind of what other storytelling elements outside of a photograph you. Could include and take away. Number three is to exhibit your work to create that advocacy. More eyes on your work means that you got a better chance, to be able to create that meaningful change that you are hoping for. So regularly submit your work to photo contests and, local, national, international, exhibitions and select venues to display your work. thoughtfully, right? Such as, like Sarah is doing, legislative buildings, other community centers. I mean, like, look, it'd be great to have our work hung kind of anywhere. but, as Sarah said, like, it takes a lot of work to submit your images. So, really focus on the places that are going to make the biggest impact. So that you don't waste your time. And again, we're going back to the communication element. You got to ensure the transparency with your subjects, right? Anytime that you're submitting work or putting it anywhere, let them know, make sure that they're comfortable with how their image, how their likeness, how their story is being showcased. I would love to hear your biggest takeaway in the beginner photography podcast community, which you can join right now for free. It is an amazing group. So come on, join us. Just head over to beginner photopod. com forward slash group to join. And I hope to see you there. That is it for this week until next week. Remember, the more you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.