The Beginner Photography Podcast

502: Justin Haugen: Is Commercial Photography Your Next Break?

• Raymond Hatfield

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In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Justin Haugen, a seasoned ex wedding photographer turned commercial and corporate photographer known for his expertise in commercial, and creative portraiture. Justin emphasizes the critical role of understanding and observing light in various situations and mastering flash photography, even if you typically prefer natural light. He shares insights from his career, including lessons on trusting your skills, adapting your style, and the importance of continuous learning.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Understanding Light: Continuous awareness and understanding of light's role improve your compositions. Observe the direction, quality, and type of light in various situations.
  • Embracing Flash Photography: Even if you prefer natural light, learning flash techniques enhances your overall lighting skills, making you a versatile photographer.
  • Trust and Effort: Trust in your abilities and put in the effort; skills develop over time with continuous practice and experience.
  • Adaptability: Be open to evolving your style and approach based on market needs and personal growth. Flexibility is vital in sustaining a long-term career.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  1. Understand Lighting Basics: Spend time observing different lighting conditions throughout the day. Notice how light direction and quality change. Experiment with creating both soft and hard light using household items like lamps and curtains.
  2. Learn Flash Photography: Start with basic flash techniques, like bouncing light off the ceiling or walls to soften shadows. Practice using flash in various settings, adjusting intensity and position to see their effects on your images.
  3. Build a Versatile Portfolio: Gather images that showcase a variety of techniques, from natural light to flash photography. Ensure each photo highlights your understanding of lighting and composition.
  4. Engage with Subjects: Practice interacting with subjects to make them comfortable, improving the authenticity of your portraits. Conduct shoots in different environments, guiding subjects naturally to best capture their expressions and stories.
  5. Focus on Continuous Learning: Take on new challenges and projects that push your skills beyond your comfort zone. Look for online resources, workshops, or courses that can help you refine your techniques and learn new ones.

RESOURCES:
Visit Justin Haugen's Website - https://www.justinhaugen.com/
Follow Justin Haugen on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/photowarlock

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Justin Haugen:

If you're going to be in this industry, the next 10 years, you better be booking Gen Z brides. If you're not booking Gen Z couples, then you have to think about like your branding and what your approach and strategy is going to be. Because I'm looking at what is my next 10 years going to look like? How am I going to solve these problems? So, if you're just having like a great time with weddings right now, it could evaporate very quickly.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host Raymond Hatfield. And today we're chatting with commercial photographer Justin Haugen about how leveling up your skills can open up the door for more opportunities for you as a photographer in the future. But first, you know this, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by CloudSpot. CloudSpot has everything that you need to build a thriving photography business. You can impress your clients, deliver a professional experience, and streamline your workflow in just one platform. It's amazing. Grab your free forever account over at deliverphotos. com today and only upgrade when you are ready. A fun fact, Justin was actually beginner photography podcast, guest number three. I remember I had reached out to him after finding some of his images from an engagement session that he shared on Reddit. After that we became friends on Facebook and keeping up with him. Over the years, I've always really admired his use of light, and in particular, flash. He really has this amazing ability, I found, to turn like these ordinary scenes, maybe it's not that exciting, it's a hallway, it's a, blank wall, into something incredible. And, uh, It's because he knows how to use light. I mean, so well, it's all about his use of light. Now, Justin has recently transitioned out of weddings and is now shooting more corporate and commercial work. So today we talk about those similarities and differences when changing your whole focus in photography, as well as tips for you on how to master your lighting, even if. You prefer natural light. And of course, some strategies for getting into the commercial space and dealing with corporate clients. So hold on tight, a lot in this one. With that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Justin haugen. Justin, last time you were on 2016, which is crazy to think about. You were our third ever guest. Which I don't know if you went back and like, listen to the interview, but it was a long time ago. And I feel like we had no idea what we were doing. And I remember I reached out to you cause I had seen some of your images on Reddit. You did like this engagement session at a, like an arcade or something like that. And I was like, these are so great because your use of light was just. blew me away. It was something that I had never even considered doing and like taking out the lights and the modifiers and stuff out to an engagement session. So we reached out and you came on and you delivered, and don't know if you knew this or not, but your episode is consistently one of the most downloaded, for the show. So congratulations. Welcome back.

Justin Haugen:

Thanks. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I had no idea that I was the third guest on your show and I didn't listen to the episode because I wanted to wait until after this was done so I could, Kind of cross reference my progress and my answers to you. and during that, time that's passed. So I was waiting till after we finished to take a listen.

Raymond Hatfield:

call. Good call. you know, like photographers don't like to look at their first photos. Cause it's like, Ooh, man, I've learned so much since then I've moved. I felt the exact same way. So you might feel the same way. You're going to be like, uh, this was so early on, but, anyway, welcome back. Today, I really want to talk about your progression because the last time you were on, you were shooting weddings. That was your main focus. And today you've transitioned, but a lot has happened since 2016. So before we like get into it, get into it, why don't you let the new listeners of the podcast know kind of, who you are, where you got your start in photography.

Justin Haugen:

so I'm Justin Hogan. was formerly a wedding and portrait photographer here in Tucson, Arizona. my start in photography began. 20 years ago, I was going to school for graphic design and I just needed a camera in my hands. I love to do photo manipulation as a part of my design elements. And I was always in need of good photography. And you know, I got interested in photography, like maybe I can do this. I can totally hear my daughter crying in the background asking for me. So that's changed in eight years. I have a daughter now. But, uh, she's going to come running to the door right now here.

Raymond Hatfield:

This is going to be

Justin Haugen:

Hold on one sec. let me tend to her real quick. Baby girl. Hi. Daddy's on a call right now. Okay. Daddy's on a call. Okay. I'm going to be, I'll come out here and play with you later. Okay. I get a kiss. Thank you. I love you. Okay. Feel free to edit that however you want or keep it in.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey man. I was there as well. how old is she?

Justin Haugen:

he turned two in June.

Raymond Hatfield:

my gosh. Two years old. So much fun. So, it's funny cause like listening back to some of the first episodes, my son was probably three when I first started the podcast he's now 11 and like,

Justin Haugen:

Oh, wow.

Raymond Hatfield:

of the first comments that we would get is like, Oh, I can, you know, say hi to the baby back there. And like, people just love babies. So like, no worries. That's great. That's great. And I heard that you got another one

Justin Haugen:

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've got a baby boy due in January. So it's going to get really interesting here pretty soon.

Raymond Hatfield:

dude, it gets wild. But, yeah, no problem. No worries at all. we left off, you were telling me, kind of your start in photography and I'll let you take back from there.

Justin Haugen:

Yeah. So, photography was always something I did as a side hustle. Like while I had day jobs, I spent like every waking hour, not at my day job working on photography. And so, in 2013, I was like, Oh, my fault of my job, from my former employer and they let me go. And I used that year to. well, first cry a lot and then spend a lot of time, kind of just coping with the idea of like, what was I going to make of my life? I was just turning 30. I didn't know what I was going to be doing for the next 10 years because I didn't have my bachelor's degree. My work experience is limited to the print industry and like cameras and photography was all it was really into. But I'd already been doing photography for about 10 years at this point. So I had a body of work to Portfolio and I, I got my website together and I climbed, this is back when you could actually climb the algorithm on Google more organically without having to buy ads and I got to number one, the number one search result for Tucson wedding photographers within, by like January, 2014. So I was laid off in May 2013. I got my site going, I built, I portfolioed like crazy. I blogged like crazy. And I started getting inquiries like crazy like January, of that year, it's like everyone started planning their weddings. I started booking and that's where I started my full time wedding photography career because I had already been doing some weddings on the side. So, that was the birth of my business. And people would ask, like, you know, what was your business plan? And my business plan was fear. I didn't know. How it's going to provide for myself. I had a, partner at the time who had a son and we didn't really have any good plans, like what we were going to be doing to try and keep the bills paid. So, luckily I figured it out relatively quick after losing that job. And so it's been since 2014, I kind of consider 2013, May, 2013, the birth of my, business, because that's when I was laid off and oddly, you know, I did weddings and portraits over the years. I probably shot in the ballpark of like 250 to 300 weddings now and, Around 2019, 2018, I started to see my, bookings tail off. I'm getting older. Brides are getting younger, but I wasn't necessarily booking, Gen Z brides. And that was becoming a problem for me. So I noticed that there was a drop off in my work, but as I was aging out of that market, I think, um, Gen Z brides and that my biggest accounts and, They lost a lot of their creative team. And I kept, a lot of the, connections that I had there and ended up with the purchase order. I ended up, going through all the hoops that it takes to work with the government, contractor. and they ended up becoming one of my accounts. So now I service a lot of their photography needs here in Arizona. And sometimes I travel for them as well. So it's funny, that my former employer is now one of my, biggest employers in a way, and it's, it's a different dynamic from working for a company to working with a company. And I, like things where they're at on this side of the, relationship. so around that time, I was picking up in that work and weddings were dropping down and then COVID hit 2020 and I spent most that year. Not, I went from like 65 invoices with my client to like six.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow.

Justin Haugen:

I was contemplating a career change. I thought maybe it was a good time to like get a certification, go back to school. I thought maybe I would get into like it or something cause I, you know, computer. So it has always been in my life. and hell, I even thought like, man, maybe I'm gonna have to work at UPS or geek squad or genius bar or something. Like I, I didn't have a lot of like, I don't know what skills I had, to offer employers, especially without a degree. Luckily, I got through COVID and then I had sold my house by beginning of 2021, I'd sold my house of 10 years and I ended up meeting a woman in Tucson, but I had moved to Phoenix for like all of two months. I was going to pivot and do a different direction with my photography. I was going to live with family and I had some money now after I'd sold my house. And. All the work picked back up after that first vaccination rolled out, and I started coming back to Tucson like weekly and my, girlfriend at the time, she told me, you know, why don't you just come live with me and do your work down here? And so that's what I did. And then later that year, we decided, Hey, why don't we start a family? And so we did. And then, we got married last year in October of 2023. 2022. We bought a house. I ended up staying here in Tucson and, my business picked up meteorically like after that, so 2021 was a decent year. 2022, I felt a lot of momentum. I was actually working part time at, MagMod, doing customer support for them because I had a relationship as an ambassador and I know the products very well. And so I worked part time with them while still building back my photography clientele. And then 2023, I was working with a new client. They're an exploration mining company. And so with them and Raytheon, I now had like two major accounts that I was servicing. And last year was, the biggest year of my business. And then got married and all this crazy stuff happened. And now I'm here in 2024. And I'm kind of at a crossroads right now. I was doing great until The last couple of months, and I'm very open about, downturns in business, but I noticed a downturn and I know part of it is, is some seasonal stuff, and there is some other work on the horizon with my two accounts, but. I am using this downturn right now to, rebrand my website. Finally, it's still got wedding work on it and use this time to shoot some personal projects and, focus on, the next step for my business. So I can really say that I'm a established commercial. photographer. That's me. That's the last 10 years. In a nutshell,

Raymond Hatfield:

I was gonna, I was thinking, I was like, man, this is a lot, but if I had to describe the last 10 years of my life as well, it would probably be, quite a bit. So, a few things I want to go back and touch upon. One, I guess, let me ask about weddings first because, being able to get to that, you know, first result in Google, as a wedding photographer, that's like the elusive spot. Everybody wants it. for you, how important was that for you? Like legitimately, and how did you use it to continue to grow? As a wedding photographer,

Justin Haugen:

it secured pretty much like 90 percent of my bookings in the first like 34 years of my business going full time. So it was the biggest thing I did was Google. The time I spent my website was very important. And then I kind of noticed like there's a drop off and like how frequently I blog the busier you get, the less time you spend on the things that got you there. Which is a mistake. Yeah, I think if my advice for anyone that's, establishing their brand and their website, you have to do upkeep on it. don't get lazy and and not update the things that show people what you're doing. And especially with the blogging part of it, if that's what got you there with your SEO, keep doing it. Keep tagging all your vendors, keep Showing your work. So that the website was a big part of it. I still think Google is like the number one way people start looking for things. of course, social media has risen meteorically in that time. I think maybe with Gen Z brides, they're using, Google lesson, TikTok and Instagram more so I felt like that's why I was leaving the wedding space was why I was not getting traction in the wedding space as much because I was less active on social media after a period of time and I feel like your average Gen Z bride has probably been following their favorite photographer on social media for years. and I just wasn't getting traction in that space. So maybe our values are different. I'm not saying that you can't book Gen Z brides. I know I have I know many photographers who are doing just fine, but I felt a disconnect for myself, and I saw myself sliding into a different space. So I think those are questions you have to answer. like I met with the photographer yesterday, who was, Buying some gear for me and I, I know he's pretty successful. He's steadily booked. And I asked him, Hey, how are you doing with Gen Z? Like, have you booked any Gen Z brides? And he's doing 30 weddings this year. And he said, he said he's booked none, which is crazy to me because, well, I know people are getting married later now. However, that's the emerging wedding market. And that's going to be, you know, the next, like, I'm a millennial. I grew up with millennials. So it makes sense that that's who my, base clientele have been. but. If you're going to be in this industry, the next 10 years, you better be booking Gen Z brides. Cause that's Gen Z. I always say brides like they're the ones who drive the bookings, but it's couples that you want to book. So yeah, you have to figure out that question. Like if you're not booking Gen Z couples, then you have to think about like your branding and what your approach and strategy is going to be. Because I'm, I'm looking at what is my next 10 years going to look like? How am I going to solve these problems? So, if you're just having like a great time with weddings right now, it could, evaporate very quickly.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. I found, I got out of weddings for a similar reason. It was that the brides stayed the same age and I just kept getting older and I had a wedding where the couple, I don't even think there were 20, honestly. And like, here I am, like, I got like a, a seven and a 10 year old at home. And I'm just like, can't connect with these two in the way that I would to, to be able to capture images that are truly them. I really want to be able to, know who they are so that I can create images again, that are, unique to them as a couple. And I just was not, you know, Able to do that. That was one of the reasons why I got out. But, let me ask. So if, for weddings, right, for you, Google was really important. Google was important to get the attention, but there was also like a hundred other wedding photographers websites out there, would you describe your body of work compared to, other wedding photographers in Tucson? Like, what do you think made you stand out?

Justin Haugen:

I think stylistically I was in a more darker and cinematic space with my imagery. it was very flash driven, which as I got later into my wedding career, I stopped, I kind of pulled back on that. when I look back on the body of work, And it's funny. I'm very proud of like a lot of my wedding work that I see where I'm a fan that still looks like a standout image to me. I could throw that into a portfolio today. I know, and some things have aged poorly, like my editing style, which is funny. It got me a lot of fanfare from people who would message me like, Hey, what are you using for your preset? And I would just show them what I was doing. And that style aged poorly, like crushed white, uh, tone curves where I was like making blacks into darker grays and whites into lighter grays. So you're losing like a true white and black point. It didn't print well. I see it now and I'm like, oh, that's like my pastel phase. And it just felt, it stylistic but it didn't age well. It doesn't feel timeless. It just feels very much like, 2015 to 2017 for me. And so I got away from that. but yeah, I think my style would, I would call it, you know, I feel like I was coining dark and moody before that became like a trend. and I always did it as a counter to light and airy cause I hated that, that idea, as stylistically I wasn't into it, but, The more I shot it and the more I have retrospect to look back on the work, I kind of feel like maybe I was serving my personal car creative ego more than I was serving the needs of my clients. Like, yes, people target you for a style. They see themselves in your images, but sometimes I'd go through all these great lengths to like do these crazy, like backlit photos where I'm like throwing colored shells at a couple and making it look really out there. And then I would see it later. And I'd be like, You can't tell who they are, you know, or, what is this? Like, yeah, like this was my canvas and I was using the light as my paintbrush, but I didn't see them share it in their social media. So did they like the photo or did I just do this to, there's a lot of clout chasing where other photographers on social media want to impress other photographers. that's exhausting. And I think like, that's what's weird about the Instagram space and social media space for photographers sharing their work is it's really for other photographers. it's like not as much, for clients as they, as you would think, like it really ends up being like, you want to impress your, peers. I think, like there's some motivation there. people aren't being honest with themselves if they don't, if they think otherwise.

Raymond Hatfield:

sure. So then let me ask, how are you using social media today since you've transitioned away from weddings into more corporate and commercial work?

Justin Haugen:

I'm not happy with Instagram and as a platform in terms of how it's nerfed a lot of the, algorithms for engagement. So where I could share an image seven years ago and get like 800 likes and, you know, a bunch of comments, lots of engagement that's dwindled. Now I can share a standout image and it gets like 50 likes and it gets like a comment or two. It's probably somebody that I know personally, maybe not even a photographer. And yeah, like you like the recognition, you like the engagement. but after a while that stopped meaning as much to me, which is hard because I have brand relationships. I have, relationships with companies that, are invested in like my reach and how I can communicate with an audience. Meanwhile, Instagram is working against you to nerf that reach, especially on smaller, smaller accounts. But I've seen it happen to bigger accounts too. So it's just kind of diminished some of my will to like constantly post. But now that I'm rebranding, I feel a spark to. Show what I've been doing. Cause there's like a low gap in the work. I want to retool the account to show what I'm, my more commercial stuff that I'm allowed to share. And then I don't see it being integral in how I can meet, how I connect with B2B with other businesses. I'm working on, I'm going to be doing, undergoing like a marketing audit once my new website's designed, with a professional who's going to consult me. And she, has very. Strong ideas about where I should be spending my time. And she's told me that LinkedIn is the perfect space for me because, it is B2B people are there with the expectation of interacting with businesses. You'll encounter like marketing directors, HR managers, like the people that I want to, connect with in that space and you can, I can share my work and not, be. Crushed by an algorithm that's trying to limit and, my reach because it wants to encourage, commerce and paid, advertising.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hmm. So do you think, If you were still shooting weddings that you would, do you see any purpose in LinkedIn, or this is morally just commercial and

Justin Haugen:

This is more B2B. Yeah, more, more B2B for sure. This is, a pivot for me. I've been on LinkedIn, but I've never really used it. So, it makes sense to me that that's a space where I'd like to, I need to spend more time. And if I'm going to, Focus on social media. So I'll still keep, active on Instagram to some degree. Instagram has become a more personal space for me. Like, when I share stories and stuff, but I think that I'll be changing that strategy here soon and just trying to show more of what I'm doing. Cause like I, now I'm working on a, personal project that is going to resonate within my community and already has, I have a strong body of work going. So Instagram is still the space for that.

Raymond Hatfield:

Could you tell me a little bit about this personal project?

Justin Haugen:

Yeah, so, I've always had it in the mind, like my favorite space and photography, like where if I could just shoot this as my passion as my career like that, this is where I'd love to be exclusively is I really love meeting people and photographing them in their place of work, rest or play like I'd love that. for me. My strengths are communication, making people feel comfortable and then getting them to, be vulnerable on camera. So that for me is just, it's just portraiture. I like studio portraiture. I, I enjoy it. I have a respect for the medium, but it's, for me, it's like, I love seeing how somebody is tied to a space. like how, like when they're in their comfort zone and that's where I feel like I get the best results. And also, photographically, I respond well to space. if I go somewhere, it invokes something different creatively no matter where I'm at. So I started this project. right now I'm calling it trades. And it's local trades people in, my community. So, I've reached out to my personal networks. I've used Reddit and, I'm just cold emailing people with my Calendly invite to book session with me. And I did. I basically spend up to two hours with somebody in their place of work, and I'm specifically after trades people, people who do something with their hands, who run a business full time, and this is their primary source of income. And I've encountered, I've photographed a blade, two bladesmiths so far, people who make really intricate, incredible knives. I've got a floor by our wedding. My wedding florist is in there. I've got, a local butcher who just opened a new location. I've got, a fabricator art artist friend. I've got a local bike mechanic who owns a shop. Only female bike mechanic in a bike store owner in Arizona. yeah, I've, I've got like more people lined up, people who work in pottery, I've got a, PPF installer he does, auto detailing and, paint protection, film installation. So I worked in his shop, like anything, like somebody with your hands, the weirder, the better, like I've got, I've got a lady who is a female Volkswagen, antique Volkswagen bus mechanic. And she has another woman who works with her. I'm like, perfect. Like the, the more obscure and like crazy, like that's how you put it, pay the bills. Like I want to meet you. And it kind of feels like, you remember Mike Rowe, uh, his, uh, dirty jobs. It's kind of my dirty jobs, like I, but not necessarily dirty, but like, the florist and, you know, she was great. Like she had a beautiful space, but everybody's space invokes such a different response to me photographically and how I see them and how I see them in their space. So it's the ultimate, like, challenge for me to go and shoot these projects, usually sight unseen in their space. So I get to respond to, like, what the it. Environment invokes for me creatively. And, I've kind of narrowed in my tools. Like I'm shooting a lot of this, on my Fuji XT two, it's an older camera that I've had that, but like, I just get great stuff out of it and I like it personally for this project because I'm very slow and measured versus like I shoot Sony and Tamron, for my professional work. But this project kind of has called for like a softer, slower hand. And, I've got a very. Particular light dialed in like lighting look dialed in where I'm using the same modifiers, but, kind of playing with the ratios of key to fill light. And so I'm getting this sometimes moody, sometimes a little brighter, but it's very intuitive to the scene. I'm trying to be very subtle with the lighting and not have it heavy handed, where the flash is so apparent and I'm just getting very fun and interesting results. And the best part is like, one of my subjects, she told me like, everyone loves to tell me how they hate getting their picture taken,

Raymond Hatfield:

time.

Justin Haugen:

yeah, but she, when I showed her some of the back of the camera, she had a moment where I could tell like maybe she was getting a little emotional and she was on the verge of tears. she had some tears welling up and I think she had a moment where she realized maybe she'd been hard on herself. And this was her be kind to yourself moment where she's like, Oh, like she saw herself and I got to show her a piece of herself, through my camera. and I think. It resonated with her and, I love that moment because I haven't really had that since I shot in the wedding space and being able to just do that taking somebody's portrait. a really special feeling to make somebody feel good about themselves in pictures because we're also very hard on ourselves about how we look in pictures. that's been the reward of the project. So my goal is that in, I'd like to get to 50, I'm at like nine or 10 right now. I'd like to get to 50, and have this body of work and maybe look at self-publishing a small run of books, or do a gallery type showing where I can involve everybody who is in the project and at that we. like a local community type thing where, all the people can share their businesses and they can be part of the, you know, show they can be there for that part of the, project, at the show and because they were involved with the photos. So that's where I'm

Raymond Hatfield:

B2B now with commercial and corporate, time is money. For you to be taking the time to not only like research these makers, but then also just send out your Calendly link and be like, yeah, you can just steal two hours of my time. Like I I'll do this for you. I guess what's the, maybe what's the point is the wrong question here, but Like if we're playing devil's advocate here, you could be spending that two hours, reaching out to new businesses for more, corporate accounts and stuff. So why, why are you working on this?

Justin Haugen:

Sure, and I will do that. Like when the website, my buddy is working on my website right now. I got to do my marketing audit and that's, on my roadmap right now. But I'm very slow right now. It started last month and it's going into this month. I've got some work scheduled out next month, but yeah, I'm, I'm in a slow, a slump right now. and. I haven't had this since the wedding day, wedding days when I would have a whole summer off because it's 120 degrees here, 110. And I would basically have to subsist off of finalized payments and deposits from March, late May through, September, pretty much. So, I'm used to that weathering that. I just haven't experienced it in a while. So I don't know how to sit on my hands for long. Like I'm not good at just like, I can't like just kick it on the couch and scroll my feed or play games all the time. Like I have to feel like there's some type of measured progress. So I keep things on my project boards and, this was just my way of using the time productively. This is something I've wanted to do for a while. I've got a couple of other projects that I have in the can that like I want to, kick around, but this was, I think it's going to be better. It's it ties in line with my, direction on my website because these are trades that's business, you know, there's still the corp, there's still a commercial element to this, even though it's highly stylized compared to what I would do for my commercial clients. So I feel like it's. to be good on a lot of different fronts. Like one, it is kind of my, uh, magnum opus. Like I don't have an artistic statement piece in my 20 years of doing this. I've never done something I considered art. I've always just done something in, photography in service of others. And so this is me taking time to, nurture my creative, needs because I don't think of myself as an artist at all. I think of myself as a. I've thrown around creative mercenary for hire. Like, like I'm here fulfilling the needs of somebody else's vision. I work great with creative directors because they have great ideas. And then once I know the ideas, I know the ceiling and I know like how high to reach, but I'm not good at. coming up with like really cool ideas, cut set design, you know, all the things that make a shoot successful. I'm just like, I'm a more of a cog and all that than I am the driver of it. So this is my first time in the driver's seat, but even then I'm just responding to people who are already interesting. Like, I'm not, I'm not creating them. They've already exist, you know? So, yeah. I'm more of like an assembler of pieces, creative pieces, and I am like a, an originator of them. So

Raymond Hatfield:

I

Justin Haugen:

I forgot what the question was.

Raymond Hatfield:

no. That, that was getting there. That was getting there. But, so one thing is, you know, like from going to weddings is that you have to really be on your feet. Sometimes you're taking portraits. Sometimes you're taking product shots, you're taking all this stuff. And as a wedding photographer, you are looked at as like the, Like you're the professional, you're the hired gun. I know that you can like take whatever's in front of you at a wedding and you have to create something with it. So help me wrap my head around. is that a similar take to what you're doing here? When you go into say a shop and meet with one of these makers is you see their space, you meet them and you're like, okay, let's try to build something here. or is it more than that in your photos?

Justin Haugen:

I think what's nice about it is that I'm on there and I'm on their turf and. I kind of lean on them to guide me through their process.

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah,

Justin Haugen:

And it's more of me just being a participant or being an observer. And so I get to document, I have them do some work. I'm like, Hey, is there a project you're working on? Or can we, kind of foe, you know, Hollywood some work here and you show me a part of your process. And. Usually the process is what informs what I'm doing with the camera, where I want to stand, where I want to light, light things. And then once they're disarmed from the, proximity of the camera and all, and the lighting, cause I have like a six foot umbrella and then a 28 inch beauty dish

Raymond Hatfield:

he's

Justin Haugen:

they're popping off and it's a lot. So it's, getting people comfortable in their space. And then once we've done that, we've got some chit chat underneath our belt. And we've, talked a lot and I get a sense of who they are. Then I can, pop in and, hit some portraits. And then that really. is when I get kind of the sense of who they are and, try to, there's, there's a look I'm after, uh, for that's kind of consistent. And I feel like I'm getting, getting there with people pretty quickly and two hours isn't a lot of time. It goes by very quickly, but I think more of the time spent talking than it is taking pictures. I only walk away with maybe like 150 frames.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I gotcha. I totally understand So it is still kind of that same wedding sense where it's like you throw me into the situation I'm gonna figure it out and we're gonna make something something great here. So have you had anybody say? No, or like walk me through the the the rejection element of it because I know that people are thinking Well, this sounds super cool, but it's hard to be vulnerable and

Justin Haugen:

Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield:

there like that.

Justin Haugen:

I've had, I don't know if it's like rejection so much as like, sometimes people don't even answer. I've got like 10 emails out right now. Only like 3 people have replied. Yes, usually is the response. had 1 business owner who I heard with like, and I'm working off referrals to like, every person I photograph like, hey, who's 1 person you can think of that's perfect for this project? Because I need that. Yeah. Referral spiral, a snowball that could keep happening. And, one woman who was referred to me, she runs a salon and, I told her about this project. She loved my photos, but she said, I'm not photogenic. I can refer you to one of my stylists and I don't know. Okay. I had a very visceral reaction to that and I tried and I'm rereading my response to her because it was on social media and I think maybe I came across a little. Crass, not crass, but like, you could probably tell my reply was like a little thirst with her, but I did it in a joking way. She said, I said to her, I was like, you know, I didn't start this project to photograph photogenic people. I photographed it to like photograph, I did it to photograph people who are authentic, I want to photograph people in an authentic way, who. Do something special and make people feel good and do things in their community. And that's why you were recommended. And then I, I jokingly said, if I wanted to photograph photogenic people, I would just hire models. And I think that comment turned her off and she never replied to me again, but like that wasn't the point. and my idea of photogenic is completely different than a subject's photogenic, what they think is photogenic.

Raymond Hatfield:

of

Justin Haugen:

And that kind of falls back into the line of like, Be more kind to yourself, like, especially you work in a beauty, in the beauty industry. And I've seen photos of her. She's like a nice looking woman. and if it's like, you don't like the project, you can say that too. I don't think it was that I just think she didn't see herself in it. And which is fine reading, looking back on it. I'm like, well, that's fine. can find probably like 20 other salon owners, but. She was recommended to me and that's where I was trying to, I don't know why I took it personally a little bit, but, I learned from it, I'll change, it'll change my response in the future.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Well, there is that, like, as a wedding photographer, I mean, you encounter people every single day who are like, Oh, you know, don't take a photo of me. Like, I don't like my photo being taken. Or every couple who's like, Oh, we don't feel comfortable in front of the camera and you take it on. It's like a personal mission to be like, I'm going to get one photo that like you absolutely love. So I totally understand that

Justin Haugen:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

somebody saying that, let's transition a bit now into the corporate and commercial work, because this is obviously where the business is going. you said that, last year was one of your biggest years ever. can you give me some context there as far as like maybe what was the size of your wedding business? And what does it look like now?

Justin Haugen:

Well, I shot my last wedding, last year, April, I think I had three weddings books, so I was closing out the last, I was stopping inquiries, referring them out and then, It was primarily, the work I had with the defense contract company and then the, exploration mining company, eclipse at work, like almost two fold. I had my plate full the whole year and, it was my top year. I had six figure goals for the year that year, I think I reached it, I reached it in 2022 and then 2023 I was hoping to, like, stay in that range and I ended up doubling what my, initial estimate was going to be for the year. So it was a big year, big year for my business. And so now that I've, I've reached that. I don't like to take a step backward, which this year feels like a bit of a step backward, but now my goal is to like, you know, I need to repeat success. Like I, need to recapture like whatever got me into a space. I need to figure out what that entails. And luckily the commercial space is I'm in Tucson. It's like, it's a lot. Less crowded. That was the reason I wanted to get into the space is because, wedding photography is very crowded. I run a photo community. We've got, we just celebrated 10 years on Facebook, but we've got about 4300 members in most groups. Like the way a group runs, you have. Maybe like 5 percent of those people are active posters if you're lucky. so we have a pretty busy user base and every time someone shares a wedding, referral, Hey, I've got a couple that, you know, this is their budget, blah, blah, blah. let me know if you're available. And I see like within an hour, there's like 40 responses. And I said, how is anyone going to find my name in that 40 list of 40 comments? And why would I want to be in a room with 40 people trying to find, trying to get one job? And, and that was, I think, a eye opening moment for me. what are you doing to stand out from that many people in a room? Or do you even want to stand out from that many people in a room? and then, commercial shoot, like an industrial, like, I need, like, you need to shoot a 30 foot diameter, basically a metal tunnel that was welded by this industrial fabricator, that can anyone photograph this, with studio lights? And I'm the only person who replied. And then I was like, this is where I need to be because this was one of my biggest jobs of the year. And I was the only person who said they could do it. And I didn't even know if I could do it. I mean, I knew I could do it, but like, I hadn't done it before. I had no clue of a concept and I got it and I got, did the work and it turned out, you know, stand out. My portfolio. And then I realized like the more underserved a segment of the market is, that's where I want to be. So that was why I arrived at this conclusion that this would be the space for me.

Raymond Hatfield:

Why do you think that there's, you mean specifically in commercial photography?

Justin Haugen:

there's a higher barrier to entry in terms of like the know how, the soft skills and the hard skills like to, be in that space. Like, and it's ageist, but I don't think a company we would hire like a high profile for, you know, fortune 500 company is going to hire 22 year old Justin versus 41 year old Justin. and that's just. You know, unless you're doing something very exceptional, but I just think there's a lot of maturity that you lack at a certain age to even get your foot into those spaces and have a seat at those tables. I still, I'm still immature and I still have a tendency to put my foot in my mouth or make inappropriate comments. I have to like, really reel myself in. But, it's a different space. And, They're photography encompasses, like, the whole gamut of the population of what people do, how people are. So if you're an introvert or you are poor communicator or, you know, all those things like they get exposed at a different level when you're suddenly in a room with a creative team, you know, planning out, you know, Large production shoot. there isn't a lot of space for different kinds of people. You have to be measured and you have to be confident in those kinds of settings. And so I think I've reached a level of confidence in my work and who I am as a person. I think I can, I am now like, I have a room, there's a room, there's a seat at the table and those spaces for me. And that's where I aim to be.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hmm. Let me ask, how did you kind of get involved with this? Because like, if we're talking about creative directors and multiple people in marketing teams, and it's like, that seems like a higher risk compared to a wedding, right? A wedding day, you know, what's going to happen. You know, that a couple is going to be happy. Uh, you know, that there's going to be a kiss. You're going to capture that. You're going to get some portraits done deal, but with a commercial shoot and more people involved, and they're needing to be specific outcome, how do you get into that without even knowing if that's truly what it is that you want to do

Justin Haugen:

I mean, it didn't happen overnight. It's, it's a culmination of all my photography experiences and, a lot of like saying yes to things that can you do this? Like, I don't know how many new skills I've learned just from like saying that I could do something and then having to research it like recently, it was, uh, I'm doing a year long time lapse camera managing three cameras of a construction build. I've never done that. But I told the client I could do it and now we're doing it and now it's going to be a piece of my portfolio. It's literally a service I'm putting on my website now that I offer. yeah. So those skills just, I have to answer the call whenever, you know, some of those things happen. Like, am I willing? is there like enough return on this if I do it? Should I learn this skill? So, yeah, none of this stuff happens overnight. You don't just like suddenly wake up and like, Oh yeah, I think I can lead a creative discussion with a room full of creative professionals and, just like run with it. Like, no, I, it's been, Little by little, shoot after shoot, different types of people, communication styles, yeah, maybe even wedding, the wedding world kind of prepped me for that because I'm, up against people's expectations and needs from what they expect their wedding to be and then trying to like hit a creative mark and also level of service. And all of that is, uh, Is transferable to different spaces of photography. If you could shoot weddings, you can do a lot in the photography space, especially if you're a good communicator. So I think weddings are new for other work and prepare you for it. So I'm seasoned from all the different communication styles. I actually find now. I have less touch points with clients, in terms of like follow through on work afterwards. Like it's, I do the shoot, I do the edits. I have people, I have, processes that like, I have somebody who retouches my work if I'm unavailable. if my time is better spent like on another project, then I have somebody who can cover the backend for me. Like, there's just more process in place, to free me up to be where I'm most successful, and play into my strengths. I've been doing this 20 years now. So There's confidence in the process and you get there over time.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. was about as good as of an answer as I could have expected, I guess. Cause I mean, you're right. You don't just wake up one day and it's like, Hey, let's take on this huge, massive job. and then you just got to figure it out. It is, it really, these things do really build over time. So, let's then talk about kind of the stakes, right? Because you're being hired to perform a job. they need assets in some way and you have to deliver. so walk me through maybe like one of your most recent shoots. Like what was it? For do you ensure that you get the photos that they're looking for and then how do you deliver on that

Justin Haugen:

Yeah. I'm trying to take my last like big shoot was across a couple different states. it was like a week of travel, in two different work sites. And I was actually kind of solo operating on this. Normally I'd, I'd want to have assistance with me. I'd want to have, more. Of that stuff in place, but I work very closely with the marketing director at this exploration mining company. And now we've built a level of trust where she expects me to just go and get the results. So we're developing assets for, a catalog of images. Asset management system so that way they can pull up anything they like right now, our big focus is annual review and report in April that goes out to all the shareholders that requires a lot of imagery because it's, it's massive. And so we're, you know, we're planning for that. And so a lot of the photos I take go into that and there's a lot of planning in place in terms of like the moving pieces, but creatively, have a pretty good idea of like what, what's going to land. I come from a design background. I know how to shoot for negative space, how to make room for copy, how to, you know, Offer different variations on the images. So that way they can use them in different ways because of social media because of print, whatever. my most recent project probably isn't the best best example, but I've worked projects where. You know, there's creative meetings in advance. I probably have a producer looking out, talent and, location. And a lot of that stuff is just, it's up to me to show up with my assistant, my gear and shoot. And then we've had a vision board or a mood board to show like what kind of images have been successful in the past or what inspires it current shoot. And, there's all these moving pieces, but I, you know, having a producer or creative director on hand is very helpful. Where when I show up, like I know the gear that I'm going to bring, I know a lot of the setups I'm going to try out and then we just shoot through the shot list of the day. So, that's kind of what a big project looks like for me.

Raymond Hatfield:

so? With a creative director there, they're gonna see what it is that you're shooting. I'm assuming are you shooting tethered? can they see the images is that it? Okay,

Justin Haugen:

If it, if it calls for it, I can slap a laptop on my, multi cart and then, I can shoot tethered. I've got a cable that's up to 30 feet long. So I have more than enough range or the cart can come. With me, if my, if my assistant's rolling it around. So, yeah, I can, we can image review as we shoot. I can even do with capture one. I can, if I'm connected to the internet, I can, it'll live, gallery generate, and I can share with somebody remotely what's going on with the shoot. So sometimes, you know, that happens too. We can actually flag images live while we're doing the shoot.

Raymond Hatfield:

that's got to be extremely helpful I think one just to have that second set of eyes to be able to tell you like yes We got it or no, we need to work on this. But Can you give me an example maybe like of a time where that wasn't the case you didn't have the creative director there And you had to do this on your own What is your? test to know whether or not you did a good job.

Justin Haugen:

Usually no feedback is good feedback. I rarely get feedback on my work. it's rare that I get bad feedback, but that happens. It may, it may never be bad feedback. It may be just critical of like, Hey, we needed this. Maybe we missed a mark here. or we need to consider this next time, especially if it's an ongoing creative relationship, but, yeah, usually no feedback is like, okay, mission accomplished. So, especially with one of my accounts, I never hear from the customer ever, ever. I can't remember.

Raymond Hatfield:

so

Justin Haugen:

Yeah, I thought. It is like five years of shooting. Maybe I've gotten like three, like, Hey, good job. Or the feedback is they request me again for the same job, you know, next year, or if it's a yearly thing. So that happens too.

Raymond Hatfield:

you did it then. let's take one step further back though. You're there, you're on set, you're there capturing the photos and if you're there solo, what's going on through your head to tell you like, yes, I got it. Or like, Ooh, I don't know about this.

Justin Haugen:

I mean, usually it takes some warmup. I feel like the first few years, first, like a couple hundred images, I'm not really feeling it yet. There's still like learning the people learning, responding to the environment. but I think, as we progress. I've shot enough variety that there's like, okay, something's going to work. And I'm usually too, I'm in my own head about like, what's not working. And it's probably, I'm probably blowing it at a proportion. it's not as bad as I think it is. And then when I, get to work the images in post and I realized like, okay, there's good stuff here. I think just that seed of self doubt. Will pervade itself no matter what. So,

Raymond Hatfield:

Yes.

Justin Haugen:

my goal has always been shoot enough that there's something.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, man.

Justin Haugen:

And it usually, when I get the, image called images called and I get a proof sheet back and they pick so few and I'm like, wow, I thought we had more, but they pick so few. So I realized like, we don't need a lot. Like they're going to pick like one or two of a set of images. So.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm really glad that you shared that because I definitely feel that way when I go out to shoot. I'm like, I don't know if I got it. I don't know what's going on here. But, yeah, getting back and sometimes you see those photos, you, you get that reality check. You're like, okay, trusted my skills and I think I got it. and we're good. So I appreciate that.

Justin Haugen:

Even your worst day, and this is not like a hubris thing. Like I'm so good. It's like, even my worst effort sometimes is going to be better than some of someone else's best effort. Like there's just like disparity in work. Like people, everybody performs at different levels. Like I have people whose work I look up to in a big way and their worst day is better than my best day. So there's always like, that you can always wrestle. Like I've been doing this long enough. my results aren't a mistake. And it's 20, the culmination of all my effort and knowledge and experience, and I'm going to get something like there's a result that I'm going to get, and usually the differences, are maybe not more skill related as they are, like a difference of opinion with a someone in creative, like, Oh, like, I'm seeing it this way. And those are things we can always communicate our way through. Like we can talk our way through those problems. it's rarely like a you didn't use the key light at the right angle or your fill light is too underexposed. Like, there's never that discussion. Like, if there's a look in mind, know how to drive the look to get there. So it's usually like more the minutia of like, yeah, What's not working.

Raymond Hatfield:

you like, there's still that trash can in the background. You should move that like stuff like that. Yeah. Boring stuff. I

Justin Haugen:

Yeah, maybe not more like abstract stuff, like the vibe or the feel of the images is off, or maybe the talent isn't working correctly for working with models or, you know, it's something more abstract.

Raymond Hatfield:

I see. one thing that we don't really talk about a lot on the podcast is gear. But like, I understand that gear is, important to a degree. So walk me through, like, what's in your camera bag when you go to a commercial shoot?

Justin Haugen:

So it's gotten it now. It's not camera bag. It's camera bags and cases. So there's a lot more gear involved, but yeah. I shoot right now. My primary body is a Sony a one, their flagship camera. So I, I shoot with that. all my lenses are Tamron lenses. I do most of my work with some combination of their 17 to 28 F 2. 8. my Mac daddy lens, which I'm actually doing a post on today and on social media, is the 35 to one 50 F two to 2. 8. It's like the ultimate, like I got 35, 35 is like my favorite vocal length. And then I love like 85 telephoto on. So like it hits everything I need in the lens. And then, if I'm getting tired of carrying around too much lens, I shoot the 28 to 75 F 2. 8 G2 from Tamron as well. That's like a great, like if I had to pick one lens to live with, comfortably and shoot like the multitude of work, I can do everything from 28 to 75 in my space, I really need. Much longer, I think after 85 like 150 to 200, there isn't a lot different for me other than the amount of reach I'm getting with the, like the look of the photos, I think, from 85 on is very similar. So. that's my primary kit right now, for my Sony gear. And then I shoot, Godox or Flashpoint on Adorama. I shoot their flashes, their flash system. So I've got, you know, a wireless transmitter. and then I've got, I've had like six or seven of the AD200, the small little lights that are kind of like the brickish lights, and then I've got, And then I shoot, the 8, 600 pros. I've got a couple of those and then the 8, 600, the standard version. And then I've got the big, the big light is there 8, 200 pro. It's got a battery pack and it's double the output of my six hundreds. And that thing I pair with a, Cheetah stand has, their cult 45 long throw reflector and I've lit a mining rig at F a at like four o'clock in the afternoon on the shadow side against the sun, I've lit the entire structure with the light, maybe like 50 feet away

Raymond Hatfield:

kidding.

Justin Haugen:

So, like, I can throw serious light with that flash. so that's, what I'm primarily using for lighting and cameras and lenses. And then I use like. I'm big with think tank bags. I love their bags. I've got like their big production studio bag. That's 50 inches and can fit light stands and C stands and all my light and gear. I use a multi cart to lug everything out on and, tether my laptop remotely on location and throw my stance. I'm like, I can't live without a multi cart now. And then a lot of big modifiers, like I'm shooting like 50, 60 inch, umbrellas, big umbrellas. So the larger, the light, the more polished. And I shoot with like B flats and, to do, to fulfill a negative fill if I want to, or to scrim a light or flag a light and keep light from hitting. Spilling where I don't want it. So a lot of it, a lot of it is like control now to where it, the light is hitting and where it's not hitting. just my modifiers have gone a lot bigger compared to when I shot weddings, it used to be very small and compact,

Raymond Hatfield:

So let me ask you, I really appreciate you sharing all that. of the hard things for listeners is always. Okay, that's a lot of gear. I don't have that kind of cash. I'm not working professionally. If you had to start over with, Let's say some sort of entry level camera body. would be the first, I don't know, two or three things that you would prioritize? Purchasing

Justin Haugen:

I guess it depends on the space that they're shooting in. I mean, let's say it's weddings and portraits, I feel like most people overthink lenses and, you can get 95 percent of the work you need with a 35 millimeter and an 85 millimeter or a lens that encompasses that focal range. If you shoot weddings, I've shot longer lenses. I shot a hundred weddings with a 35 And nothing else, like I didn't have a ultra wide angle lens. Like I have had those things over time, but if I do like an audit of like all my images, they're primarily shot at those two focal lengths, regardless of what, if it was a zoom lens or if it was those two primes. So, a couple of fast primes and you can shoot everything you can, you could, that can possibly come your way. I would start there and then, I would definitely encourage people to get acclimated to flash and even if it's not your look, you should. know flash photography, because it's going to save you when there's low light or no light, it's going to give you options creatively to change the aesthetic of the light and control harness like light that isn't there. And once you have a good handle on lighting, it will. Inform your use of natural light, like tenfold. I do things with natural light now that are informed by, because of how I placed studio lights or flashes around subjects. And I'm like, Oh, I'm looking for the light in this direction. Like you become a better observer of light because you're used to moving it around people all the time. And now I think in terms of like, Oh, like. The sunlight is bouncing off this wall, and I'm in a shaded space. That's driving the look of my light. That's like on the most rudimentary level, like is understanding the direction of light, where it's originating from and, if it is a soft or hard light, is it, indirect or direct light, like those things, like I'm aware of all that, like 24 seven, I can't eat a meal with somebody and not think about the light, you know, here. Hitting their face from across from me. I think you have to get into flash on some level. And then if you decide like, I don't like a heavy handed flash look, or I'm not getting the results, I like, a natural look is really my thing. that's okay too. But I think you should be informed and not just get there out of ignorance because you're like, oh, I don't, I don't like that look like, okay, but you still don't understand it and you're just. you're using your weakness as, an excuse.

Raymond Hatfield:

I couldn't agree more. Absolutely. Absolutely. Justin, I know that people are listening and they're thinking, I kind of want to see some of Justin's images. Like, what are we talking about here? Maybe some photos from his personal project. Who knows? Where can we find out more about you and see some of your images online?

Justin Haugen:

you can find me at justinhaugen. com, J U S T I N H A U G E N. com. if you catch it in the next like week, it's all, eight year old wedding work, but it should be newly revamped commercial, and business type photography and more portraiture, more like, Creative portraiture, pretty soon. And then, you can find me at photo warlock on Instagram and, trying to get more active on there, but you can see my body. Most of my wedding work is still on there, which is going to get archived soon. And then I'll start posting more regularly by my current, photography. I wanted to mention one more thing. I'm sponsored by Tamron Tamron Americas, and I, use their lenses, so I just wanna encourage people to check'em out.'cause I, do a hundred percent of my professional work with their lenses. you can find some of my posts about it on my Instagram. But, uh, thanks again for having me on, Raymond. It's been a good time.

Raymond Hatfield:

Big thanks to Justin for coming back onto the podcast. Let's talk about our biggest takeaways. first, the biggest takeaway that I had really was to learn to understand light, you know, always being mindful of things like direction of light, the type of light, whether it's hard or soft, direct or indirect, warm or cool when photography is capturing light, knowing how to see and use it is what will give you a huge leg up. Takeaway number two is to invest in versatile gear. And then learn how to use it. Justin took the same approach to shooting weddings as I did. One 35 millimeter lens, one 85 millimeter lens. And that was it, but the only way that you can really do that is to know your gear inside and out. And the only way to do that is to spend a lot of time with it. So when you spend time with your gear, when you know how it works intimately, you can really do things that most people wouldn't even consider. And that's going to make your work stand out and take away. Number three is to stay adaptable. Justin was able to get into the commercial space because he had extensive knowledge of light from using it. It's so, so, so. Many weddings, when you explore and embrace new skills, the world of possibility for where you can take your camera and take your photography, it opens up. It is amazing. I would love to know your biggest takeaway. I'd love for you to share it within our free and amazing beginner photography podcast community, which you can find and join right now by heading over to beginner photopod. com forward slash group. All right. That is it for today until next week. Remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.