The Beginner Photography Podcast

517: Vanessa Joy: Balancing Client Needs and Personal Style

• Raymond Hatfield

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In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Vanessa Joy, a talented portrait photographer with a keen eye for creating nostalgia in her work. Vanessa shares invaluable insights on how Instagram has shaped the photography landscape and her strategies for standing out, from embracing technical imperfections to integrating timeless consistency. 

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Embrace Nostalgia: Leveraging trends like blurry photos and direct flash can help evoke emotions and differentiate your work. Classic techniques can bring unique character to your photos.
  • Manage Comparison: Feeling inferior or jealous can be motivating. Use these emotions wisely to push your creativity forward, rather than letting them hinder your progress.
  • Timeless Consistency: Avoid overediting and trend-chasing. Adopting a consistent, clean style ensures your work remains timeless and recognizable.
  • Client Connections: Observing and conversing with clients helps capture natural expressions. Genuine engagement can significantly enhance the authenticity of your photographs.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  1. Experiment with Nostalgic Techniques: Try using direct flash and intentional blur in some of your photos to evoke a nostalgic feel. Study old photos and early photography styles, then recreate similar looks using modern equipment.
  2. Refine Your Editing Style: Set a consistent approach to editing; avoid excessive filters and trendy presets. Create a preset that reflects your style and apply it uniformly across your portfolio for cohesiveness.
  3. Strengthen Client Engagement: Spend a few minutes chatting with your clients before shoots to understand their personalities better. Observe their natural expressions and interactions, then capture these genuine moments.
  4. Evaluate Before Adopting Trends: Assess whether new techniques or platforms align with your brand and audience before integrating them. Test out new ideas on personal projects first to see if they resonate with your vision and style.
  5. Build Relationships in the Industry: Reach out to local vendors and other photographers to form connections and potential collaborations. Attend industry events and join photography groups to nurture a strong network and gain referrals.

RESOURCES:
Visit Vanessa Joy's Website - https://vanessajoy.com/
Follow Vanessa Joy on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/vanessajoy/

Grab your free 52 Lightroom Presets at
http://freephotographypresets.com/

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Vanessa Joy:

It's very difficult because I think you have to look at other people's work, even still today, when I look at other photographers work, that's awesome. It's absolutely twinge of jealousy, little mix with a little bit of inferiority mixed with imposter syndrome. And that's like a personality flaw with me. I think you have to feel a little bit inferior. Otherwise, what are you going to push yourself forward towards? I try to look at that as a good thing, acknowledge it. And a lot of times if I feel that way, like that bit of jealousy, I will purposely comment and be like, fantastic job because I want to reset my mind and teach it like, no, when you see something cool, give props to that and not allow myself to sit there and berate everything I do just because something someone else did was amazing.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield, and each week I interview one of the world's most interesting photographers to learn what it really takes to capture beautiful images so that you can start to do the same. In today's Rewind episode, we are chatting with wedding photographer Vanessa Joy about creating a unique style that remains timeless and consistent. But first, as always, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by CloudSpot. CloudSpot helps you simplify your business with studio management. They help you organize clients, send professional contracts, automate invoice payments, and more. Keeping track of everything in your growing photography business just got a whole lot easier. You can grab your free forever account over at deliverphotos. com and truly only upgrade whenever you and your business are ready. You know, staying relevant and unique as a photographer in a world where there's just constantly new Instagram trends. It can be hard, you know, daunting. In fact, Many photographers, and I'm speaking about myself here, struggle to create a standout style while utilizing social media platforms effectively without falling into the trap of following trends. Today's guest, Vanessa Joy, she's been shooting for a long time, and she shares her insights on how to embrace, not only nostalgia, like shoot like we did back in the day, bring up those fun things, how to maintain timeless consistency in your work and how to balance personal creativity with your client's expectations. She breaks it down. I mean, she makes it sound. So easy as she always does. And let me just say this, just in case you're wondering, Vanessa is, she's the real deal. I've been able to meet her in person a time or two at a different photo conventions. And honestly, she is just as nice as she comes across in all of her videos. She's very much a rising tides, lifts all ships kind of person. And that's exactly what we need in the photography industry. So, I also want to invite you to be a part of this conversation about this episode with Vanessa joy in the free beginner photography podcast community. So come join us. You can join right now again, for free over at beginner photopod. com forward slash group. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's rewind interview with Vanessa joy. Since you've been on the show before, we're not going to talk too much about your early days in photography because, anybody can go back and listen to those. Today we're going to be talking about staying power and to be in the industry as long as you have. from the outside, it looks like everything is wonderful, right? Uh, you got this amazing business. You're taking amazing images. Everything is amazing. So my first question is, I want to go the opposite direction. What would you say is the biggest setback you've had in your career as a photographer?

Vanessa Joy:

Ooh, the biggest setback for me, And is going to be evident by the fact that I don't have a voice right now is the fact that I work too much. And the whole work life balance. I'm just happy you didn't want to talk about that topic because that would be so hypocritical for me to even discuss right now. I

Raymond Hatfield:

feel the same way. I

Vanessa Joy:

just, I have no work life balance right now. that sounds like a very shallow thing to say, like, Oh, you work too hard. Ha ha. There's your weakness that you're turning into a strength, you know, in a bad interview. But what really happens when you work yourself too hard, you do make progress. you sprint, but then you burn out and your business suffers because you're suffering in there. So then you have to answer your client emails a lot more. Curtly, and then that doesn't come off as friendly and that's not giving your clients a good experience and it's not helping your creative juices. So when I say that to say that. it's a setback to your business because long term it actually is. And you end up digging yourself holes that you have to get out of, in order to sustain yourself for a long period of time, because that's what we're talking about, right? Like a longevity of a career. It's easy for someone to sprint and do really well for the first two, three years not easy, but easier than to plan long term and do things that don't feel good right now, because it's what's going to work and create a sustainable future.

Raymond Hatfield:

I know that, you just said right now is not a good time to talk about work life balance, but when you were feeling most burnt out, how do you get yourself out of that?

Vanessa Joy:

I don't, God does. He makes me sick. And then I have to, I have to rest, like, okay. I'm going to stop now. So really, it's

Raymond Hatfield:

you're being forced for some outside, influence forces you to slow down. That's the only way you're going to do it.

Vanessa Joy:

lot of the time. and it could be the outside influences, like my kids miss me. So, okay, I'm not going to take every that comes my way. Now I'm going to take them. I'm not going to say no, but I'm max only going to do one a month. So then that means my next availability is now September, which is, four months from now.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm sure that you get asked to be on a lot of podcasts again, because, not only do you have the experience, not only have you been in the industry for a long time, but, I feel like you communicate things in a way that makes it very easy for a lot of people to understand, especially those new to photography. I mean, I think that's one of the ways that I found you, you know, is that I needed help with something. And, whatever YouTube video you had made at the time was the one that most clearly communicated what it was that I needed to know. but with your career as a photographer, I always find it interesting because I was talking to somebody a few weeks ago, about the kind of just like the overall history of photography and the trends that we went through. And then that got me thinking about just wedding trends, right? All the different things that have happened that you've seen over time, selective color, smoke bombs, bridal parties running from dinosaurs, just like all these things, And probably most, recently is like slow shutter speed, blurry photos, you know, direct

Vanessa Joy:

flash.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yes. Yes. Lots of these things. So I want to know because all of these things become popular for some reason, right? somebody likes them and then they become, I guess for lack of a better term, relevant in that time. So how have you balanced being relevant with these styles that everybody is, clamoring for versus staying consistent, to yourself as a photography artist?

Vanessa Joy:

I do a little bit of both so I want to stay consistent, but consistency is good as long as it doesn't end up being stale. Right. And I think at this point, if you look at my website, I have a very clear style and it's very clean. It's not trendy. It's It's pretty true to color, maybe adding a little bit of vibrance, a little bit of whimsy. But I changed that on like Instagram. So Instagram is not a clean portfolio. In fact, I started making it look even uglier and found the uglier I made my Instagram feed look, the more successful, more engagement it got. So if you look at it right now, there's just no consistency whatsoever. And I have like side by side comparisons of lens. Vocal links on there that are the best things on there as far as engagement, but it just, it looks so ugly, but I will put a lot of the trending stuff that's happening. Because I'll photograph it. I think it's fun to follow the trends. It's almost like inherent challenge within the photography culture, right? You know, it's not a typical contest that I'm going to win, but it's like, Oh, everyone's doing direct flash. Let's do some direct flash fun. and with YouTube videos too, I'll do direct flash YouTube video or create a guideline. I actually did create a guide, how to take blurry photos on purpose. And it was almost tongue in cheek, but there actually is skill to it if you're going to do it correctly versus doing it accidentally. So I do a little bit of both. I'm not going to ignore the trends because my clients end up wanting them, especially if my clients end up wanting them and they stick around for a while. So I'll play with them. But it's not going to be something I put usually in my permanent portfolio, unless it's like a really wow image. And, I want it there really representing my whole body of work, but play a little bit. I definitely see blurry photos on my Instagram feed and direct flash. And I didn't do the overexposed trend much.

Raymond Hatfield:

What do you think that says about, posting these, I guess, having a not aesthetically perfect Instagram, what do you think that says about, having more engagement that seems counterintuitive of what you would expect.

Vanessa Joy:

It does. it makes me cringe. Actually. I recently cleaned it up a little bit, but I think it's interesting. I think there's a place for being perfectly branded and I do think Instagram can be a place for that. But if everybody is perfectly branded, then there's nothing to differentiate you from everyone else in the minds of consumers who don't know, who don't know the difference between good and great photography, right? And then if everyone's really branded and somewhat light and airy and shooting in the same locations, and it's going to be a little bit more difficult to stand out. So in one way, I think it makes me stand out. In another way, I think it attracts people better because I'm getting better engagement and then they can end up on my website and, see the actual work that way, but I don't know. It's fairly new. Also. I haven't totally decided how I feel about it, other than it is working.

Raymond Hatfield:

And if it's working, right? what's the phrase? Sometimes the ends justify the means, right? So, I want to know more about, going back to your blurry photos there. You'd mentioned shooting some content on how to do blurry photos. Yes. How do you take this trend, and put your Vanessa Joyce stamp on it.

Vanessa Joy:

Oh, you know, I wouldn't even say I put my Vanessa Joyce stamp on it at all with the exception that I've been taking blurry photos for a long time. Um, but really, yeah, well, no, not even actually the whole shutter drag thing, particularly at receptions. I've been doing that forever. I think the first time I recall doing it on purpose successfully was probably like 2004, I want to say. So like 20 years ago, and I really should find that photo just to show it, you know, you've been doing it Instagram.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah. It's perfect for Instagram, blurry photos then and blurry photos now. But I guess I put a little bit of a nostalgia attachment to it to make it mine, because it is something that I did in the past. And, direct flash, for example, that was something I did, but it was never trendy back then. It was like a mistake. It was you didn't know how to use off camera flash or use flash correctly. So, For me, it's more of a personal thing. It's like, I'm going to mess with this because I want to. And I think it's fun to revisit some of the things that I used to do, intentionally or not.

Raymond Hatfield:

Huh. You saying that right there kind of made me think about how, I guess kind of the most, current wedding photography trends are those things like the slow shutter speed, the direct flash, terrible white balance. And these are all very early mistakes that we make in our career, right? or just a journey as photographers. Where do you think that comes from? I know kind of a hard question to answer, but like, why are we now looking at things that are technical imperfections as stylistic?

Vanessa Joy:

I think we're doing that because As a whole, when it comes to imagery, we tend to go backwards, whether it's fashion, for example, like we went back to the nineties and we went back to the eighties fashion. Now you're seeing a little bit of the seventies and we tend to just pull from the past and I think photography is not an exemption to that. 10 years ago, film came back, right? And everyone loved the look of film and they still do. Well, what's next now, actually the old power shot cameras have come back and actually bought one off eBay, like just for fun. But what is this? This has the flash in there or is it up here? So this already has direct flash. If you're going to use a nostalgic piece of equipment like that, then it's going to produce direct flash is also probably going to produce the overexposed photos if you're not using it correctly. So I think it comes from the nostalgia, like comes from bringing the past into the present and what reminds people of the past. And think about I don't know your childhood or your parents childhood photos or home videos. Those, they were usually overexposed or they were blurry because. They didn't have, the type of technology that we do, or they were grainy. So that was kind of like a different type of blur. So it's bringing in past technologies, but then, it looks cool now because right now everything's so clinically clean.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. So, I want to know more about like the innovation style, because as you mentioned, my childhood photos or let's take my, parents, their wedding photos. It looks like they got married in 1978, right? As a photographer, how do you ensure that your photos don't look like, they were taken in 2004?

Vanessa Joy:

I guess for me, I want to create that timeless, like consistency. And I find that the more high end weddings I do, they enjoy that as well. So I don't edit my photos a whole bunch. What's going to come out as a final product is going to be very similar to real life, obviously with a little bit of shushing and finesse and making it look a little bit larger than life, but I'm not going to alter colors, or I'm not going to do a lot of the editing trends. And if I do some of the trends, like direct flash or blurry, it's not going to be the majority of images. The majority of the images are going to be timeless and clean and colorful and, bright and vibrant. They're not going to be, the trend. So my overall style is going to stay the same and stay consistent. And with that, I can dabble in some of the other little stuff, but it's not going to be the entirety of it. I mean, I hope no one's doing an entire photo album that has blurry photos, but

Raymond Hatfield:

you never know. I'm sure there is. I'm sure somebody sees a trend and just says, I'm going to go all in on this and I know there are photographers who have, you know, their popularity is just taken off like a rocket, because they lean in so heavily to these new trends and whatnot. but then we don't see them. Just several years later. So exactly. I think you said maybe you

Vanessa Joy:

do, but they changed their style. So you don't recognize them, right?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, it could absolutely be that but you had mentioned something there that you just kind of breezed over that was talking about how, your style is right. And we have to create a style. And I think that in today's world of constant new trends that photographers can follow. It can be hard to find kind of like that baseline style,

Vanessa Joy:

right? It's hard about the trends because we're moody as photographers we're like we'll be one thing one day and we also adapt to like the scene and the vibe It's very hard to nail down to style

Raymond Hatfield:

it is and

Vanessa Joy:

keep it

Raymond Hatfield:

and keep it. How do you do it? Right. walk me through the process of saying? I want photos that look very natural, photos that don't look, over edited or things, because there are other photographers who have a distinct visual style that isn't, true to your eye, I guess we could say. And yet they've also been around for a long time. So that's not the only thing, so can you walk me through the process of how you developed your own style and possibly went deeper into it to ensure that it's, it's yours. Does that make sense?

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah. I didn't always have a style. I definitely, when I was first starting out, I was more on that like warm sort of vintagey look. And then just as I kept going, and as I started looking at other people's photos, but also looking back at my photos or looking at the raw compared to how I edited them, your eye gets a little bit better. And for me, I started. Looking at the whites. Are my whites actually white? and they weren't, they were like piss yellow. So I started looking at why. Okay, well, one, it's my editing. Secondly, it's also how am I choosing to light the photos based on the position, based on the circumstance. And I know that I like to have a soft light. And preferably, a little bit of hair light. So I like to have more of a 45 degree angle backlight, hopefully reflecting some light back into my subjects, but it's, nice and clean. So I realized I wanted more of that like clean image versus something that's more warm. And it just like, I slowly had to be very intentional about how I was taking the photos because it is editing, but it's also how you take them. It's how you decide to position your client in green grass versus on the sidewalk, because in green grass means that their skin is going to look a little green versus if you come closer to a sidewalk or a natural reflector, then you're going to get more natural color coming back at them, which again, you could edit things out. But if you're editing out the green of their skin, then you're also editing out the green in the grass and the trees. So it's going to alter the entire photograph. Although I say that, but you could more easily now in Lightroom, just edit things out of skin tones. And you certainly could do that in the past, but that also takes a little bit more time. So, for me, it was looking at how I take the photographs and then how I edit them. Afterwards, and then choosing what I want to photograph. For example, I really actually hate green. I hate green photographs. So I try not to photograph with a ton of greenery in the background, or if I do, it's backlit greenery. So that the sun's coming through it or something. So you've got little bits of yellow in there. And that, that helped to just create that separation between the subject, potentially having green on their face in the background.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. It does not look pleasing when you shoot too much in the grass for sure. Um, would you say that the most important element when it comes to creating your overall visual style or the way that you got into it was first through your editing and then exploring from there?

Vanessa Joy:

It's a little bit of both because you can't, I mean, you can, but much, much more difficulty. You can't edit your way out of how you shot it. So it's a little bit of both. And I think looking at editing at the same time is looking at how you're taking the photograph. Both of those things are going to come into play. It's not just one or the other. Yeah, especially now when you really can edit yourself out of anything.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Yeah. It is easier than ever. In fact, the other day, I don't know if I just missed this or what, but I found now within Lightroom. First, I thought that it was cool that you could select your subject, but I literally just found two days ago, select an object and I just drew over it and it perfectly masked. This is not stupid. It was a, um, an Osprey. Helicopter plane is like a military type plane. So like very Intricate details as far as the rotor goes the shape of it And then it was on a cloudy background and I thought for sure the dark plane against a dark background. It's not going to be able to figure it out and it did and I was blown away But then I thought to myself the first thought was wow the amount of possibilities with this is incredible. But then the second thought was if I had this when I first started, I wonder if I would work as hard to get it right in camera as I did. and I'm sure for you, right? Getting in camera a very important thing. Do you think that that is a necessity for being a professional photographer with staying power?

Vanessa Joy:

I guess the answer is no, but it's also, it depends where you want to spend your life. So if you want to spend your life behind the computer, yeah, don't care about getting it right in camera. Cause you could just do it. Spend your time in front of the computer, but then you'll end up spending either more time or more money there, by paying someone else to do it or whatever it is. So you could absolutely be successful by almost haphazardly photographing at this point. As long as you, can produce an outcome that your clients are paying you for that, cause that's what it really is. Sustainability is not if you're a great photographer or a great photo editor, or you get it right in camera or not. It has to do with meeting your client's expectations and exceeding them and making them happy over and over again, so that people trust and pay you. But yeah, don't have to get it right in camera. You absolutely don't. But you have to choose where you're going to get it right because you've got to get it right somewhere. And if you want to spend your time in front of the computer, then that's where you focus your time. But if you want to spend your time behind the camera or not behind any of it, right, then you need to get it right in camera.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. it's funny when I think about the world of photography, I feel like the world of photography means something different to me than it does a lot of other photographers. And in that way, it's very much a personal journey that we're all on. Um, and yet somehow, somebody is able to create a style such as yourself that, is loved by many people. How do you balance the being true to yourself? I love this. I want to go deeper into this versus I know that my ideal audience would like this, but maybe I don't connect with this as well.

Vanessa Joy:

It's a balance. there's certainly things that I photograph that I don't really want to, for example, family photos. I'm kind of good on those, like every single breakdown you can possibly come up with. I don't care, but I'm going to photograph them because I know that's important to my client. Obviously it is. It is important. And I know, you know, at my wedding, of course I wanted all those same family breakdowns and I love looking at those pictures, but you do have to have some room for your own creative freedom and doing the things that you want to do. And for me my clients come first. If it's a job that I'm getting paid for, right? It's a wedding. It's a photo shoot. I'm going to get whatever it is that I'm getting paid for done first. That's priority. And then if I have time, like last year, I was bringing around my old 35 millimeter camera just for fun to shoot some film. I didn't tell them I was going to shoot film. I did it if I had a little bit of free time, free time, very relative, a little bit of time. But then I do things that are more for me, what I want to do. And I'm very fortunate that I get paid for that as well. Cause I make YouTube videos and that whole end of things. I'm not sure if I would do it. If I was a photographer that didn't get paid to make YouTube videos, I don't think I would do my own side projects, but I'm fortunate that. I have that. So it almost forces me to do some of the things that I'm interested in. I unfortunately this week because I was sick, I had to cancel a shoot. I've been dying to do. but it was interesting for me to be like, Oh, I'm canceling a shoot and I'm upset about it. I didn't look at it like it was a free day and oh, I don't have to work today. I was like, no crap. I've been looking forward to this. Now I have to cancel. Yeah. It's a little bit of both.

Raymond Hatfield:

How did you come up with that idea? I want to know. Cause if sometimes as photographers, we can get so tunnel visioned on what it is that we need to shoot, especially at a wedding, I know I got to do X, Y, Z. That's my job. I got to do this. And sometimes we view so much wedding photography that like, that's, all that we're consuming. So where are these other ideas that you get excited for coming from? Are they coming from your own personal experience thinking, Oh, what if this happened? Or are they coming from outside influences?

Vanessa Joy:

Oh, yeah. Instagram. I just saw a real on Instagram, at least for this one. and it's funny, it's something I did once before, but a little bit differently. So I saw it was a girl that was playing with a hose to make it rain for an engagement session. And I actually have on my photo insiders community. I did that, but I had the model holding the hose and we're spraying it around and using off camera flash. And it was a lot of fun, but I never thought to do it, having someone else hold it to make it look like rain. And I was like, Oh, that would be really cool. And I really want to do this with the model of. mine that I have in New Jersey and I was traveling there. So it was like all the stars aligned and then I got sick. But, uh, yeah, I just thought an Instagram and I was like, Oh, I got to do that. But sometimes I'll drive by like a place down the road for me to be like, Oh, I would love to shoot this there. And then I did. Sometimes with my kids, if that's all I can get.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, my kids have been the best models I've had. Sometimes, most of the times, especially if I say that there's ice cream afterwards, they're like, we will absolutely do whatever it is that you want to do here. So when it comes to coming up with these ideas and getting the inspiration from Instagram, I hear from a lot of photographers that they feel, inferior I guess when browsing Instagram, because it's almost this thought of like, well, look at how great that is. How do I get there? why am I not that great? How am I not coming up with these types of ideas? Mm-Hmm. Um, today you have a style, it's consistent. It is you, but when you first were really starting off in photography. Did you find that looking at other photographers work made you feel excited to go get it? Or man, I really wish that I was able to do that.

Vanessa Joy:

No, I've even still today when I look at other photographers work, that's awesome. It's absolutely twinge of jealousy, little mix with a little bit of inferiority mixed with imposter syndrome. It's never actually been that inspiring for me to look at other people's photographs. I mean, it is, and it was, for ideas in the past, but it's always been, why do I suck? And that's like a personality flaw with me, I think, but it's very difficult because I think you have to look at other people's work. I think you have to feel a little bit inferior. Otherwise, what are you going to push yourself forward towards? So I try to look at that as a, Good thing? Like, okay. And every once in a while I'll see something and be like, wait, I can do that better. And then of course I can't and I get my humble pie served to me, but, yeah, it's very difficult. I actually unfollowed most photographers on my Instagram feed, but Instagram knows I'm a photographer. So all the suggested posts and explore page are going to be cool photo things. Of course. I'm just going to see it anyway. And you know, just, make it a moment where like you check yourself. Let me look at this, acknowledge it. And a lot of times if I feel that way, like that bit of jealousy, I will purposely comment and be like, this was amazing. Congratulations, fantastic job. Because I want to reset my mind and teach it. no, when you see something cool, give props to that, because that was really cool and not teach myself or allow myself to sit there and do it. Um, I'm writing that

Raymond Hatfield:

down. The reset your mind, idea is so good. Um, I think change the

Vanessa Joy:

neuropathways.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, yeah, Because, I know when I had first started, you just don't know enough about photography and yet you see somebody doing these things and it, it feels great. But then once you do have the knowledge of photography, I don't know about you, but the videos or things that I see the most that irritate me are not. Wow, somebody made an amazing photograph. It's the, check out this camera hack. If you flip your phone upside down, you get lower to the ground and you're like, what is this? And yet millions of likes, millions of views. And that to me is what is so frustrating. Cause it's, I don't want to say simple, but it's like, why are we even talking about this? This isn't going to help.

Vanessa Joy:

but that's the thing it does. And when you're doing this for a certain amount of time, you get that curse of knowledge problem where simple things you think are common knowledge and they're not. So Yeah, I get that. And a lot of times I will save those posts, be like, all right, I'm going to do something similar later. And sometimes it's not the thing that they taught in like a reel, for example, it's the way that they taught it. So with, reels with YouTube, it's about watch time and with reels, it's getting people to watch at least three seconds. So if you see one of those. camera hacks or whatever, right? Usually the format goes, Hey, I'm going to show you the hack to make your photos look 10 times better. it has to be more specific than that. Like the goal, you tell them the goal and what you're going to teach them. And then you say, you give it some relevancy. Where anyone can do this, even if you have nothing but your iPhone. And by the time they're done saying what they're going to teach you, why it's relevant to you. Oh, and by the way, I'm a wedding photographer. Give themselves credibility. It's been three to five seconds. So, and you'll watch it because of the thing that they promised you to begin with. So it's more the format in which they're teaching than the thing. Which is also infuriating because then it's like, but I just want to be a photographer. I don't want to have to brain hack people into watching more than three seconds so that this darn real goes like viral. But it's true. That's how it works.

Raymond Hatfield:

Let me ask you a question. Do you dream at night about just going off into the woods with nothing but just a camera 20 years? or do you, really thrive best when working for others?

Vanessa Joy:

I feel like I would like to be in the woods, 75 percent of the time, and then 25 percent of the time, I need the push to work for other people. cause otherwise it's just, you get lazy. I think if you don't have that kind of pressure that for me, pressure is motivation and you need to have some kind of. Something that's going to push you out of your comfort zone and push you forward. So, yeah, probably 24 percent of the time I have to come back to reality, but the rest of it, you can just lock me in a black hole and I'll be by myself with my dark room.

Raymond Hatfield:

What do you think you'd be creating if it wasn't client work? Like If you could just really just go deep.

Vanessa Joy:

I do like photographing people. am a, person, like portrait photographer, I have no desire to photograph like leaves or landscapes or sunsets. Like, I just don't, anytime I see a beautiful anything, I just want to put a person there. I don't care about the thing itself, which sounds bad, but like, I love nature, you know? Beautiful job, but, um, yeah, just wonderful. Thank you, Lord for the sunset. It's wonderful, but I just want to stick a bride in front of it or a ballerina or something. So if I were shooting for myself, I would do nothing but photograph people and probably even just closeups. Like I just, I love the face and I love, just how different everybody is and how much you can capture expression wise in like a three inch span.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm hmm I want to know how do you do that then because you are very good at that, right? And you had to have iterated time over time and again because I'm assuming that your first wedding that you shot like most of us was just garbage except you're Vanessa Joyce. So it was probably fantastic if you look back How do you interact with your clients, or even just a person, let's say that we're not even at a wedding. It's just somebody who you are taking their photograph. How do you connect with them to get them to give their face to your camera the way that you want?

Vanessa Joy:

Usually, well, it depends on who you're working with. You know, If I'm working with a model, it's almost a challenge to get them to do what I want. Cause they're so good at doing what works for them. But if it's, let's just say it's someone who's not a model and just individual person and I'm photographing them a lot of times it's having a conversation with them. I think photographers get to in their head about posing people correctly, and they forget that they should be observing first in a setting where it's not like a rushed wedding. Even when I'm photographing a couple, I'll put them in my typical poses like you've seen with speed posing. But ultimately what I'm doing is I'm watching them and I'm watching them when I like basically put my camera down for a second to go to. Point B, and I'm seeing how they interact with each other naturally and then having a conversation, and just talking to them and maybe quickly throwing in a pose like, Oh yeah. Tell me about how the two of you, met or where'd you go out for dinner last? Oh my gosh. I love how you put your hand on him. Oh, I noticed before, like you'd like to lean your head this way. Could do that again. And then just continuing that conversation. And hopefully having some really good jokes to like, if I'm trying to pull out humor, also understanding things like body language and mood, if I want to have something serious or like more relaxed or slow, if I'm posing, a model, I'm going to have her move something slowly so that like her heart rate comes down, her muscles relax. If I want to do something more upbeat and have a lot of energy, then I'm going to have them maybe like, shake it off, do a little jig or, move a little bit faster so that their heart rate goes up and their muscles kind of tense. And it gives just a little bit different of an expression, even in the, like the little minute muscles in the face, when you're actually getting real expressions from some people by speaking to them versus posing them, you're going to open up a whole new world. Of what they're going to allow you and give you to photograph,

Raymond Hatfield:

I really love how you started out saying, let's just observe rather than post. I think that that is probably the hardest thing for new photographers to figure out because there's this idea. And I'm sure, you know, with. Teaching posing, there's this feeling of I have to put them in the position that I want as the photographer. But sometimes you can just let them do all the hard work. Yeah, just observe and let them do that. So that was great. I hope everybody takes something away from that. I know that we're coming to the end of our time here. So I got a few last questions for you. One, I know that, again, you've been given advice. you've given your advice yourself. But in your own business, what advice are you glad to hear? that you did not take?

Vanessa Joy:

I don't know. I guess I don't listen to other people very well. I think, I usually ignore other people's advice in general.

Raymond Hatfield:

I know that there's, especially going to, like a lot of, photography conventions and whatnot, there's so many different, viewpoints on photography, on what others can be doing, To increase your sales to, build a better business to, take better off camera, flash portraits and all these things, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, at some point. You do have to evolve over time, right? But then hearing all these new things, how do you push those away and say, like, you separate them from yourself? Do you say, here's a new thing. I'm not going to do it for a while until I know that this is something that I like, or not.

Vanessa Joy:

I think I try most things that come my way, or at least evaluate them. That's what it is. You have to evaluate it. And like, right. If I implement. Let's just say tick tock. If I implement TikTok in my business, is that going to actually help my business? Is it going to hurt or help the people that I'm serving or hurt or help me? I think I just evaluate everything. what does this look like in my daily life? How does this come across? Does this match my brand? Is TikTok where my high end clients are hanging out? Things like that. So it really just becomes an evaluation and you know what? If you err on the side of trying something great, I think it's better to err on the side of trying it and finding out it's not working for you than never trying it and maybe missing out on something that could have been amazing.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's got to be very difficult as there are always so many things to try, but yeah, evaluate, make sure that it, is true to you before implementing it. Um, that's good. My last question here for you before, we find out where we can find you online, I want to know if you woke up again tomorrow and you woke up, You were in your high school bedroom, you realized you're like 17 years old again. And you're like, Oh no, I have to start all over. But you have the knowledge that you have today. What are the two or three things that you would do different in your photography journey to get to where you are today faster?

Vanessa Joy:

I think I would have concentrated on relationships a lot sooner. Because in the beginning I concentrated on more traditional forms of marketing and not that they were bad. I think there's a place for all of them, whether it's, being in style me pretty as little black book or the knot or WeddingWire ads, bridal shows, and like all those traditional forms were, they were fine. They served me, they brought me clients, but the biggest thing that you can do is build relationships. And I think I didn't do the best job of that. In the beginning, not that I was running around burning bridges, but I just didn't prioritize them. And the second I started prioritizing those relationships and going out of my way to look for them, that was when I saw more consistent clients, and referrals coming my way. I'd always had them from past clients, you know, word of mouth, but I didn't have them from like. Halls and from, venues and wedding planners and florists and things like that. And now I do the opposite. I prioritize those vendors, making sure I get them photos. A wedding vendor that sends me a lead. I'm going to buy them a really nice gift. if I book them. And send it to them. So I think I would do that. And I tell people to do that now, just prioritize the relationships because the clients will come and go. Those friend circles that you might be referred through will come and go, but the people who stick around are the vendors that are in it with you.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, that was good. I was going to add something to that, but, you said it perfectly. There's nothing else, there's nothing else to add to that. And, anybody who thinks otherwise they just don't know what they're missing out on, I suppose. Even though that's a hard thing, especially as an adult, to like make friends, that are outside of quote unquote work or, school or whatever. I know how difficult that can be, but, I can also speak to how, powerful those relationships can be. So thank you for sharing. before I let you go, listeners want to know where can we find you online? Where can we find your work? And, tell us about your new community as well.

Vanessa Joy:

Yes. So you can find me on YouTube, youtube. com forward slash Vanessa joy, also on Instagram with the same name. Those are like my two social media places. I actually hang out, I like to say, but where I really hang out. It's the photo insiders. com. It's a photo community that I started. There's a whole library of education with new content every month. And then we also do it. Livestream every month. Sometimes it's a photo shoot. Most often it's a group coaching call and that's where you can hang out. It's a great community. We don't have a Facebook group where we hang out. Cause I can't stand those. We actually hang out in an app called discord. That's a lot of fun and organized, much more organized than Facebook. So yeah, you can check me out there.

Raymond Hatfield:

All right. Tons of great information there. Let's go ahead and recap what we have learned today. Number one, don't be scared to embrace nostalgia in your photography. You know, and nostalgia can make your work stand out in this saturated world of Instagram trends, so experiment with techniques. It's like a direct flash, intentionally blurry photos, but then evaluate how these elements can be incorporated into your current work. Style next maintain timeless consistency. Adopting these trends can be beneficial, for social media engagement. I get it. That's why they're trends, but remember for your permanent portfolio, consistency and a clean style are crucial. It's less about editing style and more about the visual style of your photo. So if you want to create a timeless body of work, avoid over editing and trend focused techniques. So, focus on lighting, focus on color, focus on minimalistic editing in your portfolio and prioritize, getting it right in camera to reduce your need for heavy post processing where the trend may just change. Next week anyway. And lastly, evaluate new techniques, pragmatically. Okay. So before jumping into a new photography technique or trend, right. They look fun. They look cool. Everybody's doing it. All your friends are doing it. Super cool. Why don't you hop on consider how that trend would fit with your overall style and honestly, your target audience, right? I mean, feel free to try it out, right? Do it for sure, but then be honest with yourself before you share it. That's it. I want to hear your biggest takeaway in the beginner photography podcast community. It is free and we love to chat. So come on in again. You can join right now. Hang out with us for free. Join by heading over to beginner photopod. com forward slash group. I hope to see you there until next week. That is it. Remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer. You will be tomorrow. Talk soon.