The Beginner Photography Podcast

503: Dorie Howell: Key to Capturing Genuine Connections in Portrait Photography

• Raymond Hatfield

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In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Dorie Howell, an insightful portrait photographer who has an amazing grasp on connecting with subjects emotionally. Dorie shares her journey from vocal performance to mastering the art of capturing meaningful moments with her camera. 

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Embrace Emotional Connection: Rather than just technical perfection, strive to capture the emotions and connections of your subjects, making your portraits more authentic and meaningful.
  • Practice and Perseverance: Understand that photography skills develop over time. Be patient with yourself, practice frequently, and learn from every shoot.
  • Constructive Feedback: Seek feedback from reputable sources and professionals to improve your skills. Avoid getting disheartened by non-constructive criticism, especially from unqualified sources.
  • Cultural Sensitivity: Respect and adapt to the cultural differences of your clients to create a comfortable and trusting environment.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  1. Practice Emotional Connection in Portraits: Schedule portrait sessions with friends or family, focusing on capturing their genuine emotions and connections. Review the images critically, identifying moments where emotions are most strongly conveyed.
  2. Seek Constructive Feedback: Join a reputable photography forum or local photography group and share your work, explicitly asking for constructive feedback. Attend a workshop or seminar to get professional critiques on your photos and implement the suggestions.
  3. Develop Cultural Sensitivity: Create a standardized questionnaire to understand your clients' cultural preferences and expectations. Research and read about the cultural practices and preferences relevant to your diverse client base to build rapport and respect.
  4. Fine-Tune Technical Skills: Practice shooting in manual mode to gain confidence in controlling your camera settings. Experiment with off-camera flash in various lighting conditions and slowly familiarize yourself with equipment nuances.
  5. Streamline Client Communication: Draft a concise yet informative initial email template for client inquiries, providing basic pricing and requesting specific needs. Conduct follow-up phone calls to build a better understanding of client desires and to establish a personal connection.

RESOURCES:
Visit Dorie Howell's Website - https://www.doriehowell.com/
Follow Dorie Howell on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thedoriehowell/

Learn What Camera Settings to Use in our free guide!
https://perfectcamerasettings.com/

Start Building Your Dream Photography Business for FREE with CloudSpot Studio.
And get my Wedding and Portrait Contract and Questionnaires, at no cost!
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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Dorie Howell:

That's the most emotion that they're ever going to show or connection that they're going to show in a portrait, but to be able to take that and see their eyes really, really clearly and their beautiful aged faces and her just leaning into him just the tiniest little bit. To show that they were connected in some way. That's a picture that went on the wall.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield. And each week I interview, one of the world's most interesting photographers to learn what it really takes to capture beautiful images so that you can start to do the same. In today's rewind episode, we are chatting with family portrait photographer, Dori Howell, about creating emotional connections with your subjects and building a sustainable photography business. But first, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by Cloudspot. Cloudspot has everything that you need to build a thriving photography business. You can impress your clients, deliver a professional experience, and streamline your workflow in just one simple platform. Grab your free forever account today over at deliverphotos. com and only upgrade when you and your business are ready. I can tell you from experience that finding your footing when starting a photography business can be pretty overwhelming. There's the technical, there's the emotional, and then there's business challenges that you have to face as well. And at times, personally, I would find myself struggling to connect with my subjects in a way that they deserved, because maybe I'd be thinking about all the business stuff. Or, on the flip side of that coin, when the business was struggling, I didn't necessarily know exactly, how to fix it because, I wasn't skilled in business. So today's guest, Dori Howell, she's going to share from her journey of discovering that power of creating meaningful moments in her photography, why that's so important and why she found it. focuses on that, as well as learning from your mistakes. You know, as I said, we make mistakes when you don't know what's going on in business, it's hard to know what you need to do, but you know, when you make a mistake, and she'll also share obviously how to adapt to client needs so that you can do the same, In today's episode with Dory Howell, you will learn the importance of emotional connection in portrait photography, how to evolve your business practices to an ever changing, business climate and how to build confidence and skill through practice and feedback. We talk about it all, honestly. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's Rewind interview with Dory Howell. Dory, I really want to keep this simple. When did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Dorie Howell:

whew. I can narrow it down to, I don't remember the day and time, but I remember the image that I took. I was a new mom at the time, and my husband, Now I'm going to date myself here and say this is before cell phones had cameras and were used for almost everything else except for actually calling people. But, I took a picture of my daughter standing in our front entryway, leaning against like the transom windows and just the way the light hit her. It was more of a silhouette, that type of thing. And I snapped it and it's still to this date one of my favorite pictures that I've taken of her and, I've named it waiting for daddy. And it was at that point in time, I would say probably 12 years ago, I decided like my heart just sang when I took that picture. And that was, a changing point. I just dove feet first into everything, photography, how to learn my gear, how to. I didn't even know that there were raw photos at that point in time. I knew nothing at that point in time and I just, went for it. 100%.

Raymond Hatfield:

So before this, what were you doing? Did you have any sort of creative, aspirations before that? Or did that photo like completely transform your life?

Dorie Howell:

I was in school for vocal performance.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, so yes, that photo completely transformed your life. Yeah.

Dorie Howell:

At that point in time, I had been running a, private voice studio teaching people how to sing. I'd been doing that for about five years and, I was in school to complete my vocal performance degree because it was just something that I needed to cross off the list. I'm a singer. I started singing when I was five years old. I've always been a singer, and so I had always had something very creative. And my parents, my mom was creative and we were always involved in something, creative. And so singing was my outlet. That's what got me through school. That's all of those things. I traveled the world with my voice. And, once I had my child, I could see living in the Washington, D. C. area that I wasn't necessarily going to make any money with my voice. I could enjoy my voice, but running a studio or that type of thing was not going to get me financially where I wanted to be. And I think a lot, this is something that a lot of singers and a lot of creatives can really, really, empathize with like, yeah, you want to do it, but how do you make money doing it? And I come from a very entrepreneurial background. My dad owned his own business. My mom worked in the business. Very entrepreneurial in spirit. And I knew that, I needed to make some cash. That's where it all came down to. So when photography came in, I started taking pictures of my child. And then I think it's the same story that a lot of other. I'll just stereotype it and say a lot of other young moms get into this. They have a child, they start taking pictures and then they realize, oh, there's an art to this. There's an art to the posing. There's an art to the light placement. There's ways that I can do this to make it more beautiful. And then people start to notice and then they ask them to take pictures. And then all of a sudden you have a little side hustle going and you realize that you want to make it more. And that's where I was. That's how it all started.

Raymond Hatfield:

So then in the beginning, let's go back to that photo that you took of your daughter waiting for daddy. You think to yourself, Oh my gosh, I can make this happen. I love this photo. I want to go at this full time. At that point. I'm assuming that you were just shooting an auto like where when did the technical side of photography come in for you?

Dorie Howell:

Well, you're right. I was just shooting in auto. So I had another friend who was a photographer as well. And I called her up and I said, Hey, can you give me a few guidelines? Can you kind of point me in the right direction? This was before Facebook, even Facebook was just starting, like literally just starting. I think I created my Facebook account maybe two months before my daughter was born. And, she said, yeah, there's these online forums. You should go to, you should go to check out this. ILP and check it out and you can get a lot of information. And that's what I did. I just dove in and I realized, okay, I need to learn my camera setting. So I bought, Brian Peterson's understanding exposure, which talked about the triangle ISO, shutter speed. aperture, those types of things. I learned how that triangle worked. And then, I just practiced. I practiced and I practiced and I practiced. And then I got into the, whole post processing side and played with actions for a little bit that really didn't suit what I wanted to do because I wanted my images to be really clean and not look impacted by any sort of post processing. So I just, played and I practice and I played and I practice. And I was a very, very keen observer to what people were saying in these forums, even though I wasn't a wedding photographer, I would go and wedding threads and find out what they were talking about as far as lighting goes or posing or those types of things. And then I just practiced that really was it. we'd be watching TV and I'd be sitting, playing with my camera to make sure that I could change all the settings without having to look at it. And I would do that for hours, just sit and play with the settings. And go outside and do the exercises. Okay, so what does my picture look like if I do a f stop of 2. 8? What does it look like if I stop it down? What if I do it even more? How does that impact my images? And then I could go back and decide, okay, well, when I have someone in front of my camera, I can't go down to 2. 8. I need to go up, or down. However, you look at it when you're thinking about after all those different things, I really just dove in and practice was my biggest friend and I wasn't scared. And I think going back to my previous life as a singer where you're used to making mistakes in front of people where you have to be comfortable putting yourself all out there. I'm totally comfortable making a mistake and taking a bad picture and realizing, okay, well that didn't work. Let's try it a different way. and that whole trial and error aspect of just my personality, I think served myself very well when it came to photographer and to photography and being able to dive in and just see what worked and what didn't.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I think, figuring out that whole thing of like, what doesn't work here when you see those photos? What doesn't work here? That's a big thing. So for you to be able to tell yourself that's totally okay. Now I just have to figure out what it is and move forward. So where you're at now with the technical skills and abilities, to be able to capture, beautiful images. If you go back and you look at those first images, what were those mistakes that you were making? Or what did you have a hard time to get a grasp on when it came to photography?

Dorie Howell:

Well, I think because I thought photographing newborn babies would be easy. I thought, what do they do? They just lie there. It's easy. It's no big deal. Um, and so my first newborn session, talk about just not. Being clueless was newborn twins,

Raymond Hatfield:

twins,

Dorie Howell:

and I had no experience with flashes yet, no OCF experience or anything like that. Twins. And, they lived in this tiny little townhouse with really no light. So not only was I dealing with the babies. And that's just, you know, a whole nother conversation. I was dealing with the technical aspect of trying to get enough light into my entry level DSLR that really could not handle bumping the ISO or anything like that. Because it was twins, I couldn't stop down to let enough light into the lens. So I had a lot of one baby in focus, one baby out of focus, like that type of thing. And it was just a disaster. And granted, I think something that people forget when we're dealing with clients, we're taking pictures of the people that they love so much. So they don't see all those technical mistakes that we make, but, Oh, that, session was a nightmare. It was just, From head to toe. It was a nightmare, but I learned a lot in the process. I learned about babies. I learned about, my equipment, what it could handle, what it couldn't handle and lighting and asking clients if I was going to go into their home more questions about where I would be shooting that type of thing, which made a big difference for the next time. Cause I didn't have twins the next time, but I certainly didn't have any issues with the equipment or anything like that. Because I was better prepared.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my gosh. So, tell me, like, in what ways did your photography evolve after that? Obviously, you realized my camera has limitations, lens might have limitations, the amount of light that I show up with, here's a limitation. So, in what ways did your photography change, directly following that?

Dorie Howell:

Well, it didn't change directly following that because I then I wasn't put in that situation again for a very long time, and I think just taking sessions, practicing and realizing it's kind of hard to say. Okay, distinctly what changed at that point in time. All I know is that I'm an evolving photographer, and every session I do, I strive to be better because that's my personality. I never Sit back and say, I've done this before. This is going to a piece of cake. I'm just going to try everything like I did it last time. I'm constantly striving to be better. So I can't say specifically at that point, what I did better, because sometimes it takes a while to absorb what happened, especially in a situation like that, you have to sit back and absorb it and then realize, okay, I need to change this for next time. I need to change this for next time. But a true, true. Business and game changing event for me was when I finally embraced off camera flash and studio photography. Absolutely. Because I can go into any situation now and know that I can get a great image of the people who have hired me to photograph them. And it doesn't matter if they show up late and we're in a park, I can still get a great session. It doesn't matter if I'm walking into a tiny little townhouse in Georgetown with those Georgetown, in DC, they have these tiny little windows and literally the biggest light source is either a sliding glass door going out to the back door that they have, tables and all sorts of stuff in front of, so it's not really conducive to move or it's the front door with it open. And that's really not great for a session either. But once I embraced. traveling with my lights, getting over the hangup of it was a lot of gear to bring in, or it looked like a lot of gear to me to bring in. Once I got past that idea that I didn't need it and accepted that, yes, I need it for my business. I need it. The game totally changed.

Raymond Hatfield:

And

Dorie Howell:

my lighting setup is very simple. It's nothing complicated at all. It's one light. It's a big umbrella. off to the side. It's nothing fancy at all. But once I embraced that, it totally changed.

Raymond Hatfield:

What was it like getting into off camera flash, though? Because one thing that I hear from a lot of new photographers is they're scared. First of all, they're having a hard enough time just getting a grip on their camera settings themselves. And now we want to introduce flash in here. So what was that like for you?

Dorie Howell:

Well, I cheated. I'll be totally honest. I'm a cheater. I bought pro photo lights with TTL so I could just throw it up and worst case scenario, throw it in a manual. And I know I'm going to get a good image now. Do I do that all the time? No. In fact, I do it very, very rarely, but to know that I have that technology that. can save me and in tough times or in sticky situations is what I need. Personally, that's, what gives me the courage to take maybe a little bit of a risk because I know that if I take a few shots and they're just not working, I can be like, okay, hold on a second, click, click, click, click, click. And I can get it back to where I need it to be. So my pro photo lights are something that I say, you know, I'm going to be married with my buried with my lights. I love my lights. And I'm not a, spokesperson for them or anything like that, but I did a lot of research on it and that's what I chose. So TTL technology was huge for me. And then I got to be in situations where I just know my, settings for certain situations. I know when I go into a studio that they need to be set my starting point is here. And then, adjust it from a certain point. It's like with time, like I said, it's just babysits time experience where you start to get to know your equipment. You get to know your, most of the situations that you're in, you get to trust yourself a little bit more. And then all of a sudden you realize you're doing it seamlessly without even really have to think about it, but it takes a little time to get there.

Raymond Hatfield:

That makes sense. That's kind of like with everything, though, right? I don't know if you feel the same way, but like, there's this misconception, I think, with photography, where because it's so readily available in a phone, or there's just this idea that it's easy, but I think with anything. If you're gonna give it a real shot, you very quickly realize how not easy it can be. But the more reps that you put in, the better, it is that you're gonna get.

Dorie Howell:

And no one's perfect the first time. I mean, Everything in life is a process. So you look at a newborn baby or a toddler who's learning to walk. They just don't get up and walk across the room. Like they need a lot of encouragement. They fall down a lot of times they, fall to the side, they fall back, they fall on their face and we're always around their hovering, trying to protect them so they don't hurt themselves when they fall, but they always get up. And I think that's something as adults, we forget like, Oh, I should be able to do that in. It shouldn't take that much time at all because I've got a fancy camera. Well, you still have to learn how to use your tools.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Dorie Howell:

You still have to learn how to use your heart and how you want to use those tools. You still have to be able to communicate and deal with people. in a great, loving, compassionate way when they're in front of your lens. So all of that just, it takes time. And I think new photographers especially are kind of given the short end of the stick that they go and they're listening to a lot of, gurus or experts forgetting that those experts have been in the business 15, 20, 30 years and not realizing that they didn't start there. They didn't start where they are now. They all started not knowing. If an 8 f stop was open or closed, everybody started there. And I think that gets lost in a lot of the communication that is put out to newer photographers these days. Yeah, we all started back where you are. we all had fears when it came to like off camera flash to me, like coming back to so many people, new photographers see that it's scary. I think it's scary because the people that they listen to make it more than it needs to be.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Dorie Howell:

And if you break it down and realize, okay, this controls this, this controls this. And then you go out and you play with it a little bit and you start to see how it works. It's not that scary. You just have to, believe that you can do it. And if something sounds too complicated, that person's probably over complicating it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Because it's

Dorie Howell:

not. it doesn't need to be difficult, but you do need to practice.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I think that there's, a few limitations that, when you're new to photography, that is just Whoa, like, I can't go above one to 50th of a second or whatever, like, hold on, that's hard. But I mean, as you said, there's so many, advancements in technology. And as you continue to practice, you're going to get better. But it's interesting, I was thinking about when you said that we all started somewhere and I was thinking about myself and my own journey and I distinctively remember Googling if I needed, like, why should I buy a 50 millimeter 1. 8 lens if I have an 18 to 55, uh, you know, kit lens that came with it. I was like, right, why do I need that? Yeah. The focal length is in there. Why do I need to buy this? and obviously as time goes on, we get better about those things, but,

Dorie Howell:

and the 1. 8 to steal.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my gosh, I know, it's

Dorie Howell:

one of the best lenses,

Raymond Hatfield:

one of the best values in photography if you're just getting started. Yeah. For you, when it came to photography, you were talking about looking like over wedding forms earlier. What was it about portraits in particular that really sang to you?

Dorie Howell:

I love faces, 100%. I love faces. I love. the flexibility of them. I love the emotions that they show. I love, looking at pictures of just faces, beautiful faces of all different colors and shapes and sizes and ages and the whole bit. There's just something about a beautiful portrait of a face that just, that's what I love. And so what you see in my portfolio may not reflect that, but every client who comes to me, everyone who gets in front of my lens will walk away with what I consider a beautiful portrait of their face. it's just something that when I get it in every session, I'm just like, yes, that's what it is. It's people, it's photographing faces.

Raymond Hatfield:

I love how, that first part of that you were talking about, it's like, this is a silhouette, like, we don't really see many faces in a silhouette, but it's great to, I think hear your progression there. It's like, well, it started with this. And obviously there's elements that you can love that aren't necessarily just a single thing and focus on that. But, when it comes to faces, when it comes to wanting to photograph faces, You're not doing headshots, right? So tell me what are some of the elements that go into a great portrait that aren't necessarily a headshot?

Dorie Howell:

well, I do headshots and I still kind of, I lean for the same idea when I'm doing like commercial headshots versus say a child's portrait. Eyes, it's the eyes, getting those eyes focused. really sharp and that connection between the camera and me and the person that they're looking right at me or right at the lens. I love the difference in skin texture and all the different shapes and colors of lips and that type of thing, just all of it combined is. I just think something incredibly beautiful.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm hmm. What was the last portrait session that you did?

Dorie Howell:

Oh, that was actually a headshot for an actor. Um, so, and he was older, he was looking for that connection and different personalities and different styles and that kind of stuff. But if you take a session that I did right before COVID hit was a family with three children, one set of twins that were five at that point in time, and then they also brought with them the mothers, my clients, mother and father who didn't speak any English. I think they're from. Belarus or some Mm-Hmm. country like that? No English. And also from a culture that does not smile for photography they didn't speak English like I said, but they didn't have a lot of personality even when they did speak, except that they were speaking to the children. But if they were speaking to the adults, it was very, very dry. And I asked, they were getting ready and the grandpa who didn't speak any English, I just said, can he come sit here and be my light tester? And she told him in their language to come over and he sat down and he looked at me and he, and you could tell he was posing in a way that he felt was appropriate for the type of portrait that he was having taken. he was in a suit. He sat up very tall. He had his feet planted, his hands on both knees. And. Kind of turned, I turned him a little bit and he looked straight at the camera, you would think no expression was there whatsoever. But if I go back and I look at that picture, like I can see that that grandpa was pleased to be in a room with his three beloved grandsons and his daughter and that family. And he was very proud to be sitting there. so that backstory, the backstory always is appropriate. You know, you got to throw that in too. And then the mother did the same thing. And I had even asked if the grandparents would, you know, can he hold her hand? Can he give her a peck on the cheek? Can he put her arm around her? And all of those were met with hard nose, absolutely not culturally acceptable that they would do that in public, let alone have a public picture taken of them.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yes.

Dorie Howell:

Knowing that sort of emotion. So I literally have a picture of the two of them Facing me just shoulder to shoulder, facing me straight on. And I'm like, okay, what can I do with this? And so I just indicated grandma. I said, can you just tilt your head? Just the tiniest, tiniest bit in towards him. Cause I think they would have been married for like 63 years.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow.

Dorie Howell:

And I took that shot and that's the shot that the daughter fell in love with. That's the most emotion that they're ever going to show or connection that they're going to show in a portrait. But to be able to take that and see their eyes really, really clearly and their beautiful aged faces and her just leaning into him, just the tiniest little bit to show that they were connected in some way. That's a picture that went on the wall for that family. And so those are the types of connections that I like when I'm looking for just that beautiful head shot. Now, granted for a toddler, I'm just hoping they're looking at the camera as they're running around, you know, just to get that good, but it's an energy behind the fire in their eyes that you can catch that is so beautiful. That you caught that split moment of time.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's a beautiful story, by the way. So thank you for sharing that. In that moment, were you worried that you weren't getting it? Were you nervous that, there wasn't enough emotion or excitement or intimacy between these photos? I guess I'm just trying to figure out, if you were to show up in that situation, if I were to show up and, photograph a family, I'm thinking fun, excitement, joy, and this is none of those things. So, were you, worried inside or was this, an awareness thing of, you know what, this is who they are and this is, what we're getting.

Dorie Howell:

I think it's a combination of a couple things. One is being in the Washington, D. C. area, I serve a lot of people that don't speak English as a first language. And they're coming from different cultures. And, I've learned to respect that. And I can ask for certain things, but if a client says no, or shakes their head or that type of thing, then it's a, no, there's no pressing there. It's just like, this is it. I do worry sometimes that I'm going to be able to capture the connection that they want to see, because ultimately I'm hired by them to get the images that they want. And I can't create something that they're not willing to give me. So yes, I worry, but then ultimately I also realize that sometimes I can't I'm not responsible for it. if they're not going to cooperate or do what I ask, then I have to work within those confines and I get that. So no, I don't worry about it too much, but I also want to exceed my client's expectations. And sometimes for me to do that, I know I have to ask them to step out of their comfort zone because they don't necessarily see what I see. So it's, kind of like a dance. I had to work around it a little bit and pick and choose what you want, because surprisingly enough, the rest of the session with the two young boys and the son, I mean, we were jumping around. The kids were on dad's shoulders. He was hugging, you know, dad was hugging mom. There was a lot of love and affection in this session. It was a lot of fun. But when the, grandparents came in, it was a different feeling that needed to be captured.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. did you know this beforehand? Like, do you have some sort of, questionnaire asking specifically about the people and what sorts of photos that they're wanting?

Dorie Howell:

I always ask, and I have this on my intake form on my website too, is I, always say, if I could capture the perfect image for you, what would that look like?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Dorie Howell:

And, it's a very simple question. I could have a wide variety of answers. Sometimes it's just like, Oh, my newborn baby with their eyes open. Or it's, I just want us to show the love of us as a family. Well, that's, I mean, that's great, but that's a very, very vague.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. So I,

Dorie Howell:

have learned how to kind of narrow that down a little bit when I'm talking to them. Cause I always want to talk to my client before I have a session with them. Get to know them, get them to hear my voice. there's a lot that can be, and this is my vocal training. There's a lot that can be translated with the voice. So I think a phone call is really important. and you just kind of get to know them a little bit better. And sometimes what they put on paper, after you've had that conversation, you realize that's not really the image that you need to get, because mom might tell you something totally different. Like she might say on the form. I want a picture of our whole family together. But then when you're talking to her, you realize the most important picture to her is her three children looking at the camera, smiling with a little mischief in their eyes.

Raymond Hatfield:

And then I'm

Dorie Howell:

like, okay, well that's what I need to concentrate on. Yes, I can get the family image. That's fine. I'm not that out right away. That's not a big deal, but what's going to go on the wall, what they're going to love the most and share with their friends and family are the ones, those three kids with that little twinkle. And so by having that conversation, it helps narrow that down. But like in the situation with those grandparents, no, I did not know what I was looking into. I knew they were coming. Because I always ask, how many people are going to be there? What are their ages? What are they like, especially with kids. I'd like to know like what Marvel heroes did these kids like, and one was Spider Man and one was Thor. So I love Marvel movies. As a singer, I can sing any princess song needed for all the little girls, all that kind of stuff. So to know what I need to have in my bag of tricks for the successful session, I ask those questions. I had a time. and then also I dig a little deeper in the phone conversation. But the phone conversation is short. It's just for us to get to know each other a little bit better.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I mean, that's something that again, a lot of photographers newer photographers really struggle with and myself included, the idea of getting on the phone with somebody, first of all, I hate when my phone rings and I don't know who it is. And so it's like, now I'm going to be that person to somebody else. And what are you talking about? How much are you talking about? I know that you're a huge proponent of in person sales and like doing a proper sales session. So is that where it starts with the phone call?

Dorie Howell:

Well, there's a lot of different philosophies to this. And I know that in my former life, yes, I was a huge, huge proponent of IPS and all that stood for. And I still am, but I don't necessarily feel that that is the right, way that that program is laid out with the consultation phone call and then the consultation visit. And then you do the session and then you meet afterwards and then you meet for the delivery. With all these appointments and that type of thing, If that works for your business workflow and your clients love it and you love it, knock yourself out. But that's not the reality for a lot of new photographers. First of all, they look at that and they think, Oh my gosh, that's so overwhelming. I just want to go out and take pretty pictures. And I would like to make a little money on the side while I do it. And I'd like to be able to. Contribute to my family income in some way so that pays for this hobby and maybe we can plan for vacation or put some more money in the college fund. and there's obviously photographers who strive for much more, but when you look at it, the traditional IPS model, the way that it's taught can be very overwhelming. And I don't think it needs to be that way. So getting on the phone for me is something that I do after, usually, after I've sent them some information. And a lot of times it happens after they book. So they've already bought into me. They've already paid me money. I have a confidence in knowing, yeah, they really want to work with me. And I usually just say, Hey, before we have this session, I just like to hop on the phone for 10 or 15 minutes. I have a couple of really quick questions to ask you. when can we do this by letting them know ahead of time? First of all, I'm not going to take up a ton of their time. I have a really set agenda for doing this, that it's a short. Just informational phone call. And they've already paid me. So they're wanting to work with me. They've already invested. it's very easy to get on the phone, asking a total stranger who has never invested in you, doesn't even know if they want to work with you yet. And they've probably sent inquiries to 20 other photographers in your town. They're going to go with the person who makes business easiest. And I totally get that. So you want to make business easy. A phone call for a lot of people. Nowadays isn't easy because they're not comfortable because, the way I look at it, my generation was comfortable with phone calls, the generation of the people that I want to serve as far as young families and that type of thing. they have different priorities and the texting and that type of stuff is what has obviously come in fashion, which makes me sound old. But I said, Come in fashion,

Raymond Hatfield:

but

Dorie Howell:

you know, generationally it's different. And I think we need to realize that that marketing has changed style of business has changed and we can embrace it. We can still run profitable businesses, but we don't have to keep trying to put people into a box that a lot of people don't want to be put into. So, that's how I do my phone calls. And if I can get them on the phone ahead of time, I love it. I love talking to people on the phone, but I also have a lot of experience doing it and I know what I need to ask. So I actually have a questionnaire that I send people and ask them to fill out. And, when I do, if they call me, see if I get a phone inquiry, which happens maybe twice a year, I pull out that questionnaire and I go through the questionnaire on the phone. So I have all my talking points of what I need to know for my client. And then if I'm having this phone conversation after the booking, Then it's much shorter, but I still go over some of those highlighted points, getting to know their kids a little better and talking about logistics of the session, but it's shorter and it's more concise. So where you put that phone call is, important, but I do think that in order for you to have that connection and my whole thing is they're hiring me to do a job. I can only do the best job for them if I have the certain amount of information. And part of that information is knowing a little bit more about the style of the person who has hired me. like what's important to them? The timeliness of the session, how quickly I get it done because their husband doesn't want to be there and has been giving him grief, giving her grief about it for two weeks. And all she's going to hear on the way there is him complaining the whole time. So I need to work quickly so that, that reflects well on her. Is it, Someone who really just wants me to keep shooting until I get a certain amount of picture like finding out those personality styles. You're not going to find out through email. You're not going to find those out any other way except by hopping on the phone. So that's why I feel it's important because I want to do a great job for the person who hires me. That's what it's all about.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, that's wonderful. I was recently going through your Instagram and I saw that you made wonderful little reel about sending too much information when somebody first inquires with you. So I'm assuming that this questionnaire that you're sending out to get all this information isn't in that first email or am I wrong? No,

Dorie Howell:

it's not in the first email at all. In fact, in the first email, the information I may be so bold. This is the way I kind of look at it. Children grow up wanting to know certain things about life. Okay. When a five year old asks a certain question about where babies come from, you give them a very specific answer that is narrow in scope and you don't sit down with them for an hour and a half and explain all the processes that go into how babies are made.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right? Yes.

Dorie Howell:

So because that's all that five year old needs at that point in time. So I kind of look at it that way when it comes to people who inquire, like they only need and are only asking a very specific narrow set of information of me at this time. So that's what I'm going to address. And I'm going to do it in the best way possible for me and my studio. And then we go to the next step so they get a little more information. And then we go to the next step and they get more information. But I'm not going to give them all the information when they inquire about what it's like to work with me from beginning all the way to the delivery of services, because that's a long way away. They don't need that at that point in time. It's just, they want to know basic pricing information, what kind of services I provide, that type of thing. So that's what I answer it first, Just because we don't think that it's overwhelming doesn't mean that someone who's not in the business, isn't going to think it's overwhelming. an overwhelmed mind doesn't buy an overwhelmed mind doesn't decide. So I want to make sure that I'm helping those people, make the best decision, which is of course to hire me. Yeah, that's how I, go through that process. Yeah. You don't want to overwhelm them too much.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay, so let's, break down this inquiry email. It's, yes, I'm available. Here are my prices. Next step.

Dorie Howell:

Okay, so I don't give out my pricing all the way over the phone. The first step literally is my average client spends between 800 for their portrait session. obviously you decide what's best for you. My average client spends this much and this is what they get for that. So my average client spends a certain amount and they get an album and they get their digital files, plus the session time. I relay that information. I'm not sending them something with 50 different prices listed out. Because they're probably not interested in 50 different things. They're probably, they want to know at that point in time, basic information. And I put on top of that, if there's something in particular or something specific you're looking for, I'm happy to provide that information. Just let me know. I'm an open book with my clients. I just want to throw everything out there. Cause like I said, overwhelmed people don't buy, they don't. So the first initial emails, thank you so much for contacting me. I can't wait to learn more about you. And I put it, I turn it around is I'm not the right fit for every client. So at that point in time, it's not like, Oh, I can't wait to work for you. It's more of like, Hey, thank you for contacting me. I would love to learn more about your photography needs and photographing your family to make sure that I'm the right fit for you. So I'm already putting out there that, Oh, maybe she's won't work with us or maybe she's not the right fit for us. Like I'm just, it's psychological way of course, looking at it versus just like jumping to, Oh, I want to work with you so much. Here's everything that you need to know. Please hire me. Please hire me. It's like, wait a minute. There's a step here. And on my website, I go through the steps and I liken it to like a, Broadway show release back to the whole singing thing of like, you have your rehearsals, you have your dress rehearsal, you have the night of the performance, and then you have the delivery, which is like the after party. So that's all outlined on my website. So hopefully they've read that. If they haven't read it, I put a link in there to, to the website. Send them back to that, to take a look at that. I want to give them everything that they need to know and start the conversation. So I give them basic pricing information. sometimes they tell me when they need to have a session like with newborns, approximately what timeframe. So I'll say, yes, I'm available during that time. and then I have a questionnaire that I ask them to fill out. And with that, if they go to the questionnaire part, then they will get more specific pricing information. I'm not gonna make them wait for it. But they do need to at least give me an honest idea that they are truly interested in working with me

Raymond Hatfield:

when

Dorie Howell:

it comes to that. So it's just one tiny little extra step. And then they've already filled out the questionnaire. I have the information that I need. Then they have their, pricing information. Then the next thing is once I send that, Then if I don't receive a response right away, I follow up about a day later and say, Hey, I sent you this information. Did you have any questions? If you want to hop on a phone call, I'm happy to do that. Otherwise, please let me know. How can I get assist you in making your decision? and just go going from there. And then. Usually from that, if they want to book, like, Oh, yes, we want to book. This sounds great. And then I go into my booking process, which was great. Here's the agreement that I need you to sign. Here's the session deposit. I have you on my calendar once this is paid and taken care of. we go from there and then they get all the how to prepare for the session and all that information. And then, we set up a phone call somewhere in there.

Raymond Hatfield:

That was extremely comprehensive. Yes.

Dorie Howell:

Yes. It's very comprehensive, right? But the thing is is that you cannot assume that your photographers know how you do business.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right, right.

Dorie Howell:

And it sounds overwhelming, but it's not. These emails are short. The information is brief. it's helping them to the next step versus assuming that they know what the next step is.

Raymond Hatfield:

First of all, I love that line there. How can I assist you in making a decision? I think that that is something that, so many new photographers that struggle with follow up and like that, one sentence before that can be like, Hey, Kara, I just want to make sure you saw my last email or whatever. How can I assist you in making a decision? Like, that's the email right there. Like super small, super short, super simple. Yeah, it is not before we move forward. I just want to make sure what is call to action in that first email? Is it to call you? Is it to just simply reply to the email? What is it that you say? It's a

Dorie Howell:

reply. It's a simple reply. Um, yeah. In almost all my emails, I put my phone number and not in every email, but I let them know that I am available to talk on the phone. Uh huh. Not because I want to talk on the phone every step of the way. That's not it. But it's just a, way of communicating me being open to them. And, I also let it know, be known that, sometimes having a conversation, I can do an email. And I have to wait to go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. Well, that could take up to 45 minutes of my time, where I can have a five minute phone conversation to answer all their questions that they thought they had, plus questions that they didn't know they had, in five minutes and be done with it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Wonderful. Oh my gosh. it's one of those things again, like I was saying, if you get into photography to take photos, the whole business side can be very, you know, it can be very uncertain. You're not sure what to do. You feel like you have to be very professional, but then you're told to be very personal. so the way that you broke down, I mean, that whole inquiry process, I'm Exactly what to say. and, laid out I guess the flow chart, you could say, I know it's going to help a lot of photographers. So, I want to thank you for that, but of course want to move on now and ask about, learning to trust yourself when it comes to the artistic side of photography? Because again, we live in a world with Pinterest, we live in a world with Instagram and photos can get millions of likes. And then we look at our work and it gets three and you know, it can be very, discouraging. So how do we learn to trust ourselves and our instincts when it comes to creating our art?

Dorie Howell:

I think that this can be done several different ways. And for me, it's happened in a combination of ways. one is I learned the technical aspects of what a good photograph is. I'll sit like PPA does these image competitions and then they, post the judging online and you can sit all day and watch them go through image after image after image after image and you can see the ratings that it's given and they do this on a regional level and they also do this on a national level so if learning how to do this is something that's important to someone they can hook up with the professional photographers association of america ppa and get information about image competitions so another thing that you can do and this is not this is not my specialty i do not like it. Entering image competitions is not my thing, but if someone really wants that good feedback from people who have been in the business for a long time, they can join image competitions. And if your images start getting good ratings, that can bring your confidence up.

Raymond Hatfield:

And

Dorie Howell:

that's what it comes down to is being able to trust yourself. Well, sometimes just saying you're good enough, we're sensitive, creative creatures, you know, we're sensitive photographers and, and we have sensitive egos and all that type of stuff. We want everyone to love our art. So sometimes enter an image competition, get some tough love your first couple of times, and then you'll start to see your ratings go up and you can know in the back of your head, okay, I can do this because I've been given these critiques and I know what I'm talking about. I think going and getting good education and how to shoot, from people who have been doing it for a long time. I think is also really good and getting feedback on those images. I personally don't think that most critique. like critique groups and that kind of stuff on Facebook are really gonna get people where you need to be, because that's not where the really great image, critiquers or ju jurors are hanging out. they're running studios. They're not hanging out on social media. members are, there's a few out there, but I say go meet people in the industry. And I hate to keep bringing up PPA, but PPA is a great way to do that. they do these super one day classes, one day workshops, I think they're called now. And they have them all over the country. And you can sign up for them. And I sign up from every year, even if the subject is something that I'm not particularly interested about.

Raymond Hatfield:

But

Dorie Howell:

it's one day, it's 99. You go in and you meet a lot of established photographers who've been doing this a long time, get to know them, make friends with them, ask them if you go to a workshop during lunch, bring some portfolio work and say, Hey, what do you think of this and get really educated feedback on what you're producing. So being educated and getting that feedback I think is one really, really important way for people to get the confidence that they need. To move forward. And then I get a lot of confidence and. trusting in myself from the feedback that I get from my clients. Like, how do I trust myself? I hear it from my clients all the time when I'm sitting with them or I'm on the phone with them and we're looking at their images or I show them the back of my camera during a session and I, show them something that I've tried and they agree that it's great. And not just because it's someone that they love in the picture, but because I've created something that's beautiful with the lighting and everything, getting that is a way that I can. feed my tender, creative soul with the positive feedback that I need and also learn to trust myself more because you need that feedback to be able to grow in the trust that you have in yourself. And then you start doing stuff that's different. And you see how it's received and you can see how it's received by your clients. You can see how it's received in social media. You can see if when you post something in your portfolio, someone calls you and says, I want images that look like that.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Dorie Howell:

Then you know, you're onto something. And the session that I did with the family, with the grandparents that I spoke about earlier, the reason she called me specifically, and she was a phone inquiry. She called me specifically was because she saw a session that I did. that was very different from my normal. it was not an outside fall foliage picture or whatever. It's very different. She saw what I did for another family. She's like, I want images that look like that. I'm like, Oh, maybe I'm onto something here. If people are specifically asking for that. So you want to get feedback to help Build that kind of bottom layer of things. And then once you get to, you get feedback and you realize, okay, yeah, I do have an eye for this. People do like what I'm putting out and you start to trust your equipment and you play with your equipment. So you know what it can do and what it can't do. All of that starts to kind of the snowball effect of being able to trust yourself and what you're putting out into the world. And also know that sometimes stuff you put out into the world isn't necessarily going to fly and that's okay too. but realizing that you have the education and the knowledge and everything underneath it to promote, to build the art that you want to build is something that I think really, really helps creatives do that. And a lot of new photographers haven't had the time yet to delve into that, or they haven't given themselves permission to fail at things because they want to be right and have it be perfect right away.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right.

Dorie Howell:

To start getting that feedback so that you kind of have that cushion of knowing yeah, know what I'm doing here I can do this.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, What you touched upon there right there at the end is really important because I think probably both you and I, we could show somebody one of our photos and regardless of what they say, it's not going to change the way that we shoot or do much, right? Unless we know that they're respected and esteemed member of the photography community. But I do often see a lot of new photographers come into the beginner photography podcast Facebook community, who have been maybe in it for a week, they will ask for feedback on an image right away. They're still in that experimental phase, right? They're still just trying to learn how to use their camera and not at the point to where they know enough about their camera to be able to capture what they see in their head, to then be able to ask for feedback, to then be able to apply that into their work, you know? yeah, I really think that's going to help.

Dorie Howell:

Those are the hardest.

Raymond Hatfield:

Critiques to give.

Dorie Howell:

Critiques on social media to give. And when I see them, I always want to encourage them.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yes.

Dorie Howell:

Because congratulations, you were brave and being brave is part of being in this industry and being in this business. Like you gotta be brave. You gotta put it out there. But knowing then in the back that they're just, depending on what group it's in, they're just going to get crucified.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Right.

Dorie Howell:

And my lone encouraging voice. Is probably not going to drown out everyone else who tells them that they're horrible and like, why do they even have a camera? And no wonder your client complained about this. Like, this isn't worthy of anything. I'm just like, okay, can we do this in a way that doesn't crush their spirit?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Dorie Howell:

Because they're trying and you want to give people, credit for that. like I said, we all started there. We all did it. We all had the horrible session with the bad lighting and the twins and the whole bit when we first started. And we didn't know what to do with it. But good for them for showing up.

Raymond Hatfield:

Exactly. Yes. So, For you, when you first started, How long do you think you need to be shooting before you should really start to consider others feedback.

Dorie Howell:

I think other people's feedback is good to consider immediately as long as you keep in perspective where that feedback is coming from. That's the biggest thing, I think, especially in this age of social media and specifically Facebook groups where people will post up an image and you have 100 people replying, but you don't know their background. You don't know how good they are, what they do, how long they've been doing, what they do. You don't know if their opinion is really worth anything. So I think you have to remember that, like going back to the PPA competitions, you know, the people who are looking at those images are seasoned photographers. They've gone through training. They have what standards of photography are now granted. PPA competitions are kind of boring, but they've satisfied. The basic idea of what is considered a good photograph. So then you can take that and you can creatively spin it in your work and do something that's more creative, but you have to take into consideration where the advice is coming from and the attitude in which it's coming from, because a lot of people just live out there to tear other people down. And a lot of people don't realize this, but if you're brave enough to put something out there. That in and of itself is a huge accomplishment, but to be able to take feedback like that and be able to weed through it and see what's good and what's bad. So I don't think you have to have been in business for any certain amount of time to put it out there. If I've probably sooner, sooner is better, but just realize where the feedback, who you're asking for feedback from and keep it all in perspective and know that everybody started somewhere. And it's the same thing is when we're talking about business, when people say like, you ask your friends and family about your pricing structure and they say, Oh, well, I would never pay that much for photography. Or I would never, you're never going to be in business very long. If you charge those high prices, the first thing that I always say, which always sounds a little bit harsh is I'm like, Oh, your uncle said that. It's like, yeah. How's your uncle's photography business doing?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Yeah. Let's figure out who it is that we're who, where's this coming from?

Dorie Howell:

Is he an entrepreneur? Does he know how much it is to stay in business and to start a business and run a profitable business? Or does he just go to work for someone every day and collect a paycheck? Because that's a very different perspective of things. So keeping all of that in mind, I think is super important for people who are wanting to get into the business.

Raymond Hatfield:

it's funny, I've had that conversation with my wife, my own wife, many a times, where she's like, I would never pay that much for photography. And it's like, I totally understand. And yet at the same time, calendar's booked. So it's like, there's a disconnect there. Some people, you know, photography different than others, and maybe she's just been spoiled because I'm just always here taking pictures. And you're the pre hired

Dorie Howell:

hand. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You

Raymond Hatfield:

know, but it's good because, as I trust my wife, love her and I take everything that she says into consideration. Yeah, and it's still, being honest with yourself and trying to figure out like, well, I know that this is working because I've tried it with others, or, I can do a quick Google search and see that there's, Ten other photographers in Indianapolis charging 10, 000 for weddings. Yes. So clearly there's a market for it and then just trust yourself And go for it. So that was wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Well Dory we are at the end of our time here Yeah, I feel like we could talk about this all day. This has been a wonderful conversation to have Before I let you go, can you let listeners know where they can find you online and discover more about you?

Dorie Howell:

Sure. You can find me on Instagram and the handle there is the Dori Howell and it's D O R I E H O W E L L. And my portrait website is dorihowell. com. And then for photographers, I have some really great resources. You can get some free stuff for all about teaching business and growing your business. And that's at harmonyhangout. com. And all of those things are linked all throughout the place. So you can find one through the other, but, I do a lot of posting on Instagram. I'm loving reels. I'm getting ready to go film another reel on my suit on my series called the struggling photographers hotline, which is super fun. So that'll be posted later today, but yeah. So Instagram, the Dorie Howell and then hangout. com.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm going to put links to all those things in the show notes. Dory, again, thank you so much for coming on, sharing everything that you did. I really look forward to keeping up with you in the future.

Dorie Howell:

Great. Raymond, thank you so much.

Raymond Hatfield:

!All right, let's go ahead and recap what we have learned today. Number one, practice. if you want to build any real technical skills in photography, that requires continuous practice and a willingness to make and learn from mistakes. So, start by experimenting with different lighting conditions, you know, if, morning, afternoon, evening, all different lighting conditions outside. And then test out different camera settings with your camera, to figure out how to best capture it. Number two, understand your client needs. If you want to create authentic, emotional, images that resonate right with your clients, that requires, an understanding of your clients and respecting their personal preferences and again, cultural backgrounds. So try to implement a questionnaire, if you're shooting portraits, right? Try to gather detailed information about your clients. One thing that I would always ask is, are you two comfortable with displaying your affection, for each other in public? You know, kissing in public. Something like that would determine whether or not we're going to have a session, downtown where it might be busy, or if we're just going to do their engagement session at a local park where there might be less people. And lastly, adapt your business approach. If you want to stay relevant, that means adapting to, different client preferences and then. From there, trying to simplify your business process. Because if you want to have a standup business, you have to be able to cater to your client. And if you have a range of clients, the better that you can cater to them while still staying true to your business, the better off you are going to be. So try to keep that initial client communication. rather concise, and short because I'll tell you what, overwhelming them in that first initial email is one of the quickest ways to get ghosted real, real quick. So, that's all that I got. I want to hear your biggest takeaway in the free and amazing beginner photography podcast community, which you can join right now over at beginner photopod. com forward slash group. Again, that is it for today until next week. Remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.