495: Annemie Tonken: Can Raising Prices Hurt Your Photography Biz?

In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Annemie Tonken, a passionate family photographer who transformed her career by shifting from wedding photography to a more flexible family-focused business. Annemie shares her journey of setting the right pricing, creating a luxury client experience, and navigating the challenges of in-person versus online sales. Her story will encourage you to reconsider your pricing model, refine your sales approach, and embrace having consistency in your business strategy.

The Big Ideas:

• Pricing Adjustment Journey: Adjust your rates after understanding your business costs and client needs. Finding your pricing "happy place" ensures sustainability.
• Consistency in Business Strategy: Fully commit to a cohesive strategy. Piecing together different tactics may create a disjointed "Frankenstein" business.
• Educating Clients: Gradually guide clients through the decision-making process with clear, segmented information to prevent overwhelm and foster better decisions.

Photography Action Plan:

• Evaluate Your Pricing: Analyze your cost of doing business to determine a sustainable pricing structure. Gradually adjust your rates to align with client expectations and your financial goals.
• Enhance Client Experience: Implement personal sales strategies, offering tangible products to enrich the client experience. Provide a seamless and luxury experience, from consultation to final delivery.
• Simplify Your Sales Process: Utilize online gallery software to simulate in-person sales experiences, maintaining client engagement. Set specific time limits for purchasing decisions to create urgency and drive sales.
• Educate Through Communication: Engage in pre-booking conversations to understand and address client concerns. Use personalized videos and timed galleries to guide clients through the purchase journey.
• Consistency in Strategy: Choose a single business model (in-person sales or all-inclusive) and commit fully to its execution. Avoid mixing different strategies to ensure a streamlined approach that clients can trust.

Resources
Listen to the This Can't Be That Hard Podcast - https://www.thiscantbethathard.com
Download Annemie's free guides - https://www.thiscantbethathard.com/bpp
Follow Annemie on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thiscantbethathard_/

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Transcript

Annemie Tonken: 0:00

I knew that if I wanted to quit nursing, that I was going to have to figure out a way to make money. So in the beginning, yes, of course, it was like somebody would say, Hey, would you come over and take pictures of my kids? And I'd be like, great. And then I did start to do the, like 50 bucks or 150 bucks, and I would burn a CD for somebody. Immediately after I signed up for a business class as part of that business class. They had us do like a big deep dive on our cost of doing business and our numbers and all this other stuff. So I flipped from 150 rates to, very quickly, very early in my career. I was charging, over 2, 000. I don't know where I got the cojones to do that, and I was like, well, if it doesn't work, and if I can't get anybody to pay me, then I guess now I know in black and white, this is not a viable career path.

Raymond Interview: 0:51

Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield, and each week I interview one of the world's most interesting photographers to learn what it really takes to capture beautiful images so that you can start to do the same. In today's Rewind episode, we are chatting with family photographer Annemie Tonkin about creating a unique pricing structure that your clients will love and gives you back more time. But first, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by Cloudspot. Sell your photos through prints, products, and of course, digitals. You can set up a storefront in minutes and start earning more with every single gallery that you send. So grab your free forever account over at deliverphotos. com and only upgrade when you are ready. Pricing can be difficult, you know? There's been two kind of main strategies for a long time. One, high volume, low touch. So think like school photos. Or low volume, high touch. Think, you know, in person sales. What if you don't want either of those? Well, today's guest Annemie shares her journey of setting the right pricing structure for her and her clients, creating a luxury client experience. And she also shares how to navigate the challenges of in person versus online sales. Annemie is also the host of the This Can't Be That Hard podcast, focusing on making business easier for photographers. So if you're into that, be sure to check it out. Today, your business is going to change by recalibrating your pricing model, refining your sales approach, and embracing consistency in your business strategy. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview. So my first question for you is super simple. When did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Annemie Tonken: 2:33

I would say my that moment for me was actually I followed the same path as a lot of people, a lot of women specifically when it comes to family photographers, which is that photography was always a hobby for me. I enjoyed it. It was great, whatever. But when my older son was born, I was living in New York City and had invested, I didn't have much space for all the baby stuff. I didn't have a dedicated nursery. So I asked for money toward a camera or a stroller or books. That was all I wanted grandparents and stuff to give us. And so I had saved up and I had gotten a Nikon D70. And I was photographing on program mode. Like there was nothing fancy about what I was doing. But in the first few days that Oliver, was at home, I happened to take a picture of him that literally took my breath away. And I can't say that at that moment, I knew it was ever going to be a career path. But from that moment forward, it was well beyond a hobby. It was sort of an obsession. And that from there grew an entire career.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:40

When you think back to that photo, now with being a professional for many years, what do you think it was about that photo that took your breath away?

Annemie Tonken: 3:48

So I inadvertently rim lit him. There was sort of a window kind of off to the side behind and I just kind of got lucky with where he was in the light and it perfectly highlighted that little peach fuzz on him and he looked so peaceful. I still look at that photo and, I wouldn't take it all that much differently now. I would probably change my aperture and things like that. But, it was a solid portrait mode kind of a photo.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:12

Right. I love that. I love those little happy accidents, I guess. Yeah. So we live in this world, I think, today where so many people are totally cool with just taking snapshots, essentially, on their iPhones. You bought the, you said the D7000, right? Or 7000?

Annemie Tonken: 4:29

The D70.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:30

D70, sorry. So you bought the D70. You put it in program mode, you could essentially go on forever just taking those snapshots in program mode. What made you decide, you know what, I'm actually going to pursue this a little further and learn more about what this camera can do and where photography can go?

Annemie Tonken: 4:49

Well, I will say that Oliver is now 16 years old. So there was no camera on my phone or if it was, on my flip phone that photo did not do anybody any justice. So, I had some motivation from that. It wasn't as though I could substitute images from my phone. And in retrospect, I'm a little sad that I didn't have what people now have when my kids were little because I don't have tons of little, snapshots in the moment. And, video obviously was like a whole different thing at the time. But, at this point, the thing that kept me motivated was that you know, how did I take this picture? What just happened here that made this photo look so different from all the other images that I'm making, even with this camera, and even given all the same technology. So even though that was a long time ago, there was still the internet. So I was doing all of this research. I bought some books. But education for photography has come a long, long way in the last 16 years. And so I was struggling at the time trying to just figure out like, what do I even search here? Like, how do I make the background blurry? How do I, you know, what makes a photo look good? Like it was, I was having a very hard time sussing out what I didn't know. You don't know what you don't know. And it was just kind of that dogged pursuit that over time got me to where. I knew what I was doing. I ended up taking like a class at a local college just to sort of get my bearings on what the different modes and things were, but I always approached the camera as the tool. I never really, got super into the tech side. Now, I certainly know my camera inside and out. I know what all the features do, all the different things. But to me, it was always a means to an end. I wanted to use that tool to make the image that I saw in my head.

Raymond Hatfield: 6:39

Where was that struggle? Right? You got the books. You didn't even know what to search for. Like, I understand that. But when you finally got the book and started, or whatever resources it was, when you finally started putting your hands on that camera, was there anything from the camera side, I guess, that you were really struggling with to grasp?

Annemie Tonken: 6:55

Oh, this is a long time ago. You're asking me to, to dig deep. I think that it went relatively smoothly, there was no pressure on photography for me at the beginning, right? And it was this, I was so creatively engaged in what I was getting out of there and I was just constantly marveling. It was like it opened up this whole new world to me in terms of the beauty of different kinds of light and those qualities. And I feel like as photographers, it's almost like you have spidey senses about those kinds of things. And you walk into a room and you're like, Oh, and things that other people are just like, I don't even know what you're talking about. That's like a dusty book in the corner. So I found at the time that it just like opened up this new world of beauty to me. And of course, smack in the middle of that, beauty was my son who I was, completely falling in love with. So I think, I don't know, in the beginning, it didn't really feel very much like a struggle. I was just so excited by it all the time. Yeah. And then, struggles came not so much for me from the technical side of things, although certainly there have been hurdles. I mean, when I, started moving into doing, artificial lighting and things like that, that felt a little bit more, confusing. Oh, I do remember feeling very, stymied for a while about just the exposure triangle. I was reading about it, learning about it and was like, what? This seems so counterintuitive. And then when it finally clicked for me, it was like this great aha moment. So yeah, there have been those hurdles over time, but more than anything, once I got into photography as a career, it was cracking the business side of it. That was always harder for me.

Raymond Hatfield: 8:38

Yeah. And I'm excited to get into the business side because, that's one of the big reasons why you're here today. It's that you're doing something really interesting, but before we get into that, I had to ask. Did you do like me and actually search for some sort of like exposure triangle button on your camera? Like after reading about it so much online, I was like, but where's the button? I don't understand where this is. You didn't do that

Annemie Tonken: 8:57

as a multi million dollar idea. I think that there should be a button.

Raymond Hatfield: 9:02

It says exposure triangle. That's funny. Easy exposure triangle button. Right, right. I love that. Well, I'm gonna look into that. See if I can get a part of that, uh, multi million dollars. There you go. Let me stay on the early days of photography for just one more question here. Yeah. And when you were talking about those early days and how exciting it can be and walking into a room and seeing that dusty book and be like, Oh, I know that that's a good photo. I know that oftentimes, as photographers, get more experience when we look back at those early photos, it can still be like, Whoa, like that's not, Who I am today. That's not, what I photographed today. These look like amateur photos when you look back at your photos. Do you feel that same way? And if so, what elements now with your experience and knowledge, would you say, make that an amateur photo? I feel like that was a really long winded question. I apologize. Hopefully

Annemie Tonken: 9:49

I totally know. I totally get it. I look back at my early days photos. Now I will say editing has come a long, long, long, long, long way. My early edits when I first got first into Photoshop, and then later, I guess by the time I got into Lightroom, I had toned my editing down. But there were a lot of very silly actions that were floating around the interwebs back in the late, I don't know, what is that, aughts, like 2009, 2010. So my edits weren't great, but I feel like and I say this all the time to my own students, I think that what you gain over time with experience and you probably become more consistent and you can kind of rely on yourself more to show up in any situation and make the photos that you need to make. But in the beginning, that passion and that drive and that excitement really comes through. And I feel like I was trying more stuff and risking and failing because, sometimes that's what happens, but I was taking just swing after swing after swing and like knocked some out, some of them out of the park. I mean, those photos, I might go back and reedit them, but there are a handful of photos from those early years that I don't know that I would have matched them. Yeah, I wouldn't change them. I mean, my equipment has come along. Certainly again, I have become more consistent. I feel that, but I sometimes wish that I could go back and get a bit of that new energy that you have when you're first starting out because it is, it's like falling in love. There you go. It is very much like the beginning of a relationship where you are just infatuated and you, all of your energy and all of that emotion goes into it. And it shows. And then over time, if you can make a long term career out of it, that is a thing of beauty in and of itself, but it is different. It evolves.

Raymond Hatfield: 11:45

Yeah. Just like love, though. Yeah. Just like love. So then tell me, how did you get into photographing professionally? You shoot, say, families. So how did that transition happen?

Annemie Tonken: 12:57

So I was, 30 when my second son was born and I was in the middle of a master's program to go into midwifery. So I was a nurse and I was in this master's program and nursing was actually a second career for me with the direct focus on like, I'm going to go into women's health. But by the time that I got there, I had been in nursing for five or six years and I was starting to doubt that decision and feel like, Oh, this might not be the right career path for but, and now at 43, I think like, Oh, Silly me, 30 is so young. Like you have all the time in the world to change careers and do all this. But at the time I felt like, uh, I'm just going to flake out on this career. And, I didn't really know what to do. I was on maternity leave from both work and from my master's program. And I was, sitting at home with a second new baby and having like an existential career crisis. And, my husband at the time was like, well, You know, you don't have to go back to school necessarily. You take really good pictures. You could do that. I mean, I nearly laughed him out of the room. I was like, that's not a job. I love that too much for that to be my work. But that idea took root. And so I took a leave of absence from the master's program, which never came back. And I did go back to work and I kept working as a nurse for a couple of years, but I started taking some classes. I took a business class. I took another photography class. And I started really considering what it would mean to start a business. And I had no roadmap for that. Like my parents were both medical. I didn't really have any business mentors in my life. My undergraduate degree was very liberal arts. Like it wasn't, there was nothing businessy about me. And so, I was just kind of feeling my way forward, but over the course of a year and a half or so, I was able to get to where I felt like I could probably safely replace my income. And so I, quit my nursing job and the rest is history.

Raymond Hatfield: 14:55

I know that, many new photographers, when they think about making money with their camera, their first thought is like, oh, I'll get into wedding photography. You can make such a large amount of money. What was it about families that drew you into that?

Annemie Tonken: 15:06

Well, to be fair, I started out in both families and weddings. I was drawn to families because a lot of the early work that I got was, you know, I had little kids at the time. I had lots of friends with little kids. I worked as a labor and delivery nurse. So there were, this endless supply of people who I connected with there and was like, by the way, if you're interested, I also. But wait, there's more. I, I take photos. And so I was doing a lot of that work, but I also felt like many people do that, you know, weddings are a big moneymaker. And so I got into photographing some weddings. I also was working with some people who were in that phase of life. I was at a big teaching hospital. So I had both residents like doctor residents and nurses who were getting married. So I did get some early work in those both of those genres and I continued to do both for about five, six years. And then my business had gotten to a point where I felt like I was busy enough that I kind of needed to choose one direction or another. And that for me, it was a no brainer. I was, hour for hour. I have always made as much money as a family photographer as I was as a wedding photographer. And yes, you can make a big chunk of money. As a wedding photographer, but it's always Saturdays and it's always, like in the peak beautiful season. And my kids were at that age where I was like, yep, not interested. And so, I went all in on families.

Raymond Hatfield: 16:30

When you first started out shooting families, were you doing like the traditional 30 minutes for a hundred dollars or how did the pricing structure work for you then?

Annemie Tonken: 16:38

So I was dead set on if I'm going to do this as a career, and I was very much like we were kind of equal partners in the income game at that point. My again, now ex husband and I, so I, knew that if I wanted to quit nursing. Which was the goal that I was going to have to figure out a way to make money. So in the beginning, yes, of course, it was like somebody would say, Hey, would you come over and take pictures of my kids? And I'd be like, great. Can I pay you? I just love doing this. I certainly did lots of free work. And then I did start to do the like 50 bucks or 150 bucks and I would burn a CD for somebody. Cause that was when that was. And then, pretty soon into it, I was like, okay, actually. In that class that I took, when I didn't go back for my master's, that second semester, or the spring semester of that year, I took a class, another class in photography, and the guy who taught that class at home. And he took me aside at the end of the semester and he was like, look, you really have a great eye and I had mentioned to him, you know, I'm considering this as a career switch. He was like, you have a great eye. I don't doubt that you can make this work as a career. But if you and he was sort of a, he was older than I was at the time, but he still was like in his 40s and he had tried to make photography a career and ended up teaching. But he was also, he also had like a day job. And he was like, if you want to get into this, you need to take the business side as seriously as you take the photography side. He was like, I know this is more fun, but this is a, it's a hard industry. And if you set yourself up right from the beginning, you'll do better. So immediately after that class, I signed up for a business class. And as part of that business class, they had us do like a big, deep dive on our cost of doing business and our numbers and all this other stuff. So I flipped from 150 rates to, uh, very quickly, very early in my career, I was charging, over$2,000, which was very high locally, and it was like, I don't know where I got the cajones to do that, except that I had this other job. And I was like, well, if it doesn't work. And if I can't get anybody to pay me, then I guess now I know in black and white, this is not a viable career So, I was out there, like here it is, this is what it costs. And I was always shocked and amazed when people would hire me and, you know, it was a different time in the industry and everything else. So it was a little bit of the wild west, but I did get some clients at that confidence. And I always say this to people when it comes to pricing it is such a head game. And I'm not here to say that, everybody should raise their prices or anybody can charge 5, 000 and, feel good about that. I do think that there's, it's a very nuanced, complicated, conversation. But, photography exists at all levels of, you know, there's, somebody out there to pay 50 and there's somebody out there to pay 5, 000. And so it really is important to, to run your number. So I'm glad I did. What's funny is that now I charge less than I charged at that point, not a whole lot less, but I started out really high and then sort of found my happy place in terms of like the right clients for me. And what I feel good about. and so that's been an evolution. But

Raymond Hatfield: 19:56

I know that a lot of listeners right now are going to think to themselves, there's no way that I could charge 2, 000, to photograph a family. But I think that they're missing what you had said there of like, I already have another job. So if they don't take it, I'm not like, let's at least try this and see if that works. And that's something that unfortunately, I think it's lost on so many people, you know, taking that chance. So, you said that your prices have actually gone down pretty much since then. Tell me about that evolution because this is one of the reasons why I reached out to you today, because you're doing something a little bit different when it comes to pricing. So I guess before we get into what it is that you're doing now, can you kind of share with us what the traditional two model system has been up until this point?

Annemie Tonken: 20:39

Sure. So, when I started and I went into business in 2010, and I was trying to learn all I could about like how to run a successful photography business. At that time, almost everyone in the industry who was doing really well was saying you need to do in person sales in order to make enough money for this to be a long term career. So I very, very early on, I set those like 2000 plus dollar prices. And I backed that up with in person sales. And I took classes on how to do in person sales because that was not in any way, something that I, felt was natural to me. But I was like, well, this is how I get to do this thing that I love so much for the long haul. And so I learned how to do it and I got reasonably good at it. I always approached it from like a, this is not, I'm not pressuring you. We just have to have a conversation and I want to help you find what you want to find. And I built my career on telling people and showing people that, it's like a luxury item and it's a high touch kind of a thing and you come in for a pre session consultation and then we'll meet again afterward. And I enjoyed it because it gave me lots. I am. I do enjoy my clients a lot and I like to get to know them and help them put beautiful art on their walls. I mean, what I have always found in the course of my career is that when someone has something tangible at the end of their session with me. The satisfaction factor is so much higher because they have, something that they're able to look at and see every day to remind them of this experience and everything else. So it really seems to stick in their heads more. So I, I enjoyed that. And I learned a ton sitting in on these, like it's being a fly on the wall to get inside your client's heads, right? What is it that they love? What do they not love? What makes them decide to actually And again, my very early on prices were very high, but then I started to realize like, uh, when I have my prices set this high. Like, it's not the right fit and as much as I was like, you tell me how to set up this luxury experience and I'll do it, and I could do it. I'm also not like a luxury person, it's not really who I am as a person. So I always felt a little bit weird about that and I would always kind of downplay I'd be like, Oh, we're just, you know, it's like we're having wine as friends and we'll just talk about what we're going to hang on your wall. So it was a good system and then I was making good money and I was able to leave my career, and that was all good. But what ended up happening several years into that, was that I got divorced. And when that happened, I was like seven years into my career and I was faced with all of a sudden needing to support an entire household on just my income and whereas the money that I had been making for all these years was good for the half part of the income equation. it was impossible, or I was having a hard time figuring out how I could scale it because in-person sales for all of its many benefits is very time consuming. Again, not only was I meeting with people to photograph their family, I was meeting with them beforehand. I was meeting with them afterward. I was always like, oh, you can contact me anytime after we met, and there was usually a whole bunch of back and forth about like, oh, we have to change our appointment now, this, that, and the other. And then after we met, I would have to log into Rose and place their order. And then the order would come and I'd package it up and then I'd have to drop it off and all the whole many steps. I actually, sat down and tried to calculate how much time I was taking with each client after the editing was done. So like you think about the time that you put into each job and, it kind of ends with here's the images, but there was another like six to eight hours per client just in that sales phase. And so when I looked at, you know, there's only 24 hours in a day. Whatever that equals out to in a week. And in order to take on the number of clients that I needed to take on to fill that wage gap, I didn't, I just literally ran out of time. And of course, at that point, I was also going to have to pay for a babysitter. And I was going to take more time away from my kids, which was now limited. Like there were so many hurdles, but it was like. Ah, I don't know what to do. So the option, and sorry, you were joking about asking a long question. I can talk for years about this stuff. I love it. Um, The alternative and the only alternative that was kind of out there at the time was to go all inclusive. So when I first started, that was called shoot and burn. And it was like photograph and you put them on a CD and walk away. And then we made up a nicer name, which is all inclusive. And now we don't put things on CDs anymore. But, the idea is the same. Basically, it is the least time commitment for the photographer. It's also the least time commitment for the people out there, your clients, which for many people, that's important, like we're all busy people. And so I totally got, especially at that point, I really got the attraction the going all inclusive. And so at that time, my sales average was around$1800$2000 And I was like, okay, I can't charge$1800 upfront and expect people to book me. Like that's way out of the ballpark for everybody in my area. But maybe if I charge$1400 that's so much less than I currently charge. Or than I currently make with per session. I'll lower it to that, but I'll take on more clients and that's how I'll make the math work. And I did like a one month experiment or a two month experiment, which by the way, it's not, it's not enough time. Like you do have to let price changes have to marinate for a little bit, but I figured going cheaper was going to make mean that like the floodgates have opened, you know, all these people are going to be coming to me and what I found was not only did I not get this giant influx of new clients, my existing clients, many of whom I had worked with for years, were being a lot more resistant to my new prices. They would say, because before they had been paying, even though over the course of the whole interaction, it would be like 000. When they booked me at that point, I think it was 250. It was just a session fee. And there was no big commitment for later. So a couple of months in, and I'm getting pushback from all these clients who've worked with me. A bunch of times being like, Oh gosh, that's a lot. Well, okay. Let me talk to my husband and I'll call you back. And then like crickets. So I'm panicking. I'm like trying to figure out what it's going to take to get my nursing license renewed and, and the whole time. So frustrated by this doesn't make sense. Everyone in my local market would point to me as like, Oh, she's so successful. She's doing so well. And here I'm going to have to quit this thing that I love because I can't make it work. So out of like pure desperation, they say necessity is the mother of intention. Well, one day I was looking at my gallery software, which I subscribed to, like I paid for it, but I didn't really use it because people were coming in to do the whole sales thing and that was when they would buy. So I just used my gallery software as a way for them to then be able to like share images with grandparents and like every once in a while a print order would come through. But generally speaking nothing ever came through and I was frustrated because at that point the software options for gallery software had come a long way and I had this really beautiful online gallery with this gorgeous online store. And I was like, nobody ever even sees this thing. Like I I'm paying for this software and I don't, it's not used. And something like clicked in my brain. And I was like, you know, I wonder if I could make an in person sales experience happen using my online gallery software. To make a long story short, I over the course of a couple of weeks kind of hammered out this rough plan. I tried to decide or I tried to really distill after seven years of in person sales, like I know what it is that makes people buy what they buy. Sure. How can I make those things happen in a way that I don't have to show up and do it in person. And it was like a full on Hail Mary pass where I was just like, well, we're going to see if this works. And if it doesn't, we'll figure out the next step. I mean, my whole life was being reinvented at this point.

Raymond Hatfield: 29:17

So let's just go for it.

Annemie Tonken: 29:18

So let's just go for it. And, I put this thing together and it was a little rough around the edges, but I launched it and I, essentially reached out to all my clients and I was like, Hey, remember how I told you all the time that the most valuable part about working with me was meeting in person? Well,

Raymond Hatfield: 29:36

forget about all that.

Annemie Tonken: 29:37

I have a new plan where I'm going to help you through this process, and I framed it as a benefit for them. I was like, I know how busy you are and I've gotten a bunch of pushback about like, it's really hard to schedule all these meetings. So I have, created this process for you that gives you all the attention and the need or like the, customization that you want, but you can do it on your own time from the comfort of your own home. And I had no idea how it was going to go. And that was like May of 2017. And, from May until December of that year, so in seven months or whatever that is, I made more money by 30 percent than I had made any year prior in working full time for the full year. And at that point I was like, well, This is a thing, this is working really well. And that's the way that I have run my business ever since. And it's been super successful.

Raymond Hatfield: 31:13

First of all, thank you for sharing that. It is quite a journey to figure out exactly, what it is that you want to do in business. And when you do find that thing, it feels real good. One of the things that I hear sometimes from, other listeners or clients is that like when you try to set up some sort of sales system online, there's almost no urgency, I guess, for customers to buy and therefore their sales typically go down than if you were in person, you're kind of right here right now. Let's go ahead and choose something that you like. Why do you think your sales went up? And, would you say that most of your clients, continued to purchase? Was there any pushback as far as timing goes or, them taking their time in, in ordering their product?

Annemie Tonken: 31:56

That's a great question. And it's exactly what kept me for a long time from kind of going y'all in on that gallery software was that what I had learned both from the people who educated me about in person sales and just through experience over the years was that like, If you don't force somebody to make a decision and force sounds like some like I'm not sure. There's no, there's no like scare tactics happening, but people do need a deadline. They need some amount of urgency and in person sales has that all baked in, right? Most in person sales, strategies focus on creating this, like there's an appointment and the expectation is that at some point during the appointment or by the end of the appointment, you will have placed your order for your images. So that's a deadline of some sort, right? In thinking about like, okay, so how can I reverse engineer the lessons that I had learned. Urgency or a deadline was one of them. And I would expand that to say, it's not just a time limit. You really have to give people all kinds of limits. And I think that as entrepreneurs as, oftentimes very sort of thoughtful, empathetic artist types. We have a hard time seeing limits, giving someone limits as a benefit. We feel like the more options we give someone, the more time we give them, the better it is for them. Ultimately. I would argue, both through experience and then I've actually read a bunch of data on this, is that people need those limits in order to move forward with a decision. There's this super cool study, that was done by a guy actually down the street from me, that has gotten a lot of international attention, but, having to do with the decision making process and how, the more image or the more options that we have, the more we feel like. Or we always think that that's what we want. And then when we get into it, we can't make a decision if there are too many options. And I always use Netflix as the example. Like you sit down to watch TV and you scroll for 45 minutes and then you go to bed because you're like, I can't pick But if you have last

Raymond Hatfield: 34:01

night, yes,

Annemie Tonken: 34:01

I know it happens all the time. It still happens. And every time it happens, I'm like, yep, there's that example again. But if you sit down to Netflix and your friend yesterday told you like, Oh man, I saw these three great movies last week. It's this one, this one, and this one, then I have three options. Same thing. I, for a long time was the vegetarian and I always was like, it's, this is the best thing going. When I go to a restaurant, it takes me like five minutes to decide, whereas everybody else is pouring over the menu. And it's because I only have three options or two options or whatever. It does help us focus our decision making energy. And so that was one of the things that I had to figure out how to build into this system. And so I have, and part one of the kind of the crux of the simple sales system is that you are taking your clients on a journey. That journey has very specific mile posts and it also has very specific time limits. So, that expectation is set up front. They're not being, blindsided by it. It's like, you're going to get this and then this is going to happen. And then this is going to happen. I definitely am a big believer in education is step one all the time. A well prepared client is a happy client.

Raymond Hatfield: 35:14

So let me see if I got the 30, 000 foot overview here. The shoot is a relatively low fee. And then afterwards, when you send them their online gallery, it is tailored through different packages that they can choose for which products they would like. And then it's a simple, you either pick this one, this one, or this one, and then that's it, and then afterwards you purchase those and then you're a happy client.

Annemie Tonken: 35:39

Kind of. So, you definitely have the, beginnings of it. So I do feel like that low barrier to entry of a session fee is a really great way to bring a client in, give them some confidence that they're not, handing you 1, 500 and hoping for the best. They're bought in like they do have some skin in the game, but it's not so much that they are, going in scared. And then from that point forward, I like to automate not only the sales process on the, backend after the session, but really from the beginning, I have a whole series. I mean, now technology is our friend, like We have the ability to not only write up, for a long time, it was like, here's your prep guide that I wrote out. That's all this written content that I expect you to like, here's a novel. Um, now we can make little loom videos or we can make, videos with our phone and be like, Hey, it's Annemie. I'm super excited to, work with you next week. I just wanted to run through three pointers before we get there to remind you of and it's that is not only, valuable to them from the perspective of they are getting prepared for their session, but they're also getting to interface with you kind of the way that I used to do like a pre session consultation. It's not necessarily a back and forth conversation, but they're seeing my face, they're hearing my voice, they're getting used to the way that I operate. Even before we've met, then we have the session, which is great, hopefully. And then you do your editing and you get all ready. And then, the beauty of this system that I have put together really does fully kick in once you are delivering your gallery, because once upon a time, if you wanted to do online gallery sales. You would put your gallery up and you would kind of, you know, there would be prices in the store and maybe you'd have a menu of you can buy one digital file for this or five for this or all of them for this. This, system that I have created basically gives them a short period of time where they can see preview all of their images, and then that period of time closes, and they have to make a decision. And until they make a purchasing decision, they don't get to see their images. And then the purchasing decision, this was the other thing that was tricky because with in person sales, one of are taking them on kind of a custom journey from the moment that they see their images to the point that they have placed their order, but you are there as an expert to guide them through that. If they see their images and then they're like, okay, great. We have a such and such budget and we need to get gifts for grandma and we want to have something big on our wall. You can kind of help them navigate that decision making process. And honestly, sometimes that is just what people need. They doubt themselves, you know, they're not necessarily photo experts. And it's a big purchase. So sometimes it's just that validation of like, Oh yes, this is going to look great on your wall. Or like, you're talking about framing an 8x10. Let me show you what an 8x10 is going to look like on your wall. It's going to be really small. Are you sure you don't want a 16x20? That sort of thing. So in person, you can give all that guidance. If you give somebody an online gallery with a hundred products in it, And they are expected to navigate that decision maze. They are either not going to, they're going to get the Netflix problem and just kind of shut down and be like, we love the photos, but I think they won't even, they'll like end up ghosting you after you followed up a hundred times. But you kind of need them to make that decision while like the impact is fresh and the excitement is there. And so you don't want to give them too many decisions. So I created what I call Flexible collections and each one there's three options. So it's just pick between one of you know, among one of these three and they're all the same. They're just staggered in terms of size. So it's a certain number of digital files and a certain amount of print credit and print credit is amazing because it's like here's the gift certificate you're buying yourself that you can use in the online store. Everybody gets some digital files and everybody gets this credit. And the great thing about credit, even at the smallest collection, is that that means that they will go into the store. They will be thinking about like, where do I want to put this on my wall? What gifts do I want to get? And some people purchase and keep it within their gift certificate limit. And then other people are in there and it's convenient. They're shopping. The store is beautiful. This is where that like beautiful online gallery experience really like levels it up. I used to have, album samples out and, there's something to that tactile experience. Nowadays, not only is there this beautiful gallery that has like their images pre populated into the frame or whatever, so that they can kind of preview what that's going to look like, but all along the way, I am sending them little videos like, Hey, I just wanted to, you know, as you're waiting for your images, I wanted to showcase a couple of my favorite products that you're going to see, and you're going to have this gift certificate for yourself that you can spend. And so like, let me show you this acrylic that I love or, whatever the case may be. And so I am doing my hybrid sort of in person sales thing where I can do it once, record it, and then send it out to all 50 clients or 60 clients from that year or whatever the case may be. It is a more scalable use of my time that still gives the same guidance and sort of customization to the clients. So to get back to the process, once they choose their collection, their gallery opens, and then they have 30 days to fulfill that collection. They can pick out whatever their digital images are. They can, decide what they want to order in terms of like album versus frame versus whatever, and sizes and all that. And I always offer my assistants during those 30 days, like, Hey, if you're having a hard time deciding, let's hop on a zoom and I'll be happy to walk you through it. And then I can do like a micro version of the in person sales, but the fulfillment is done through the gallery. So I don't have to manage all the ordering process and all that sort of thing. And it's a much more flexible timeline that I can manage from my home instead of having to go meet them in person.

Raymond Hatfield: 41:46

Can you talk to me about the decision to, have clients select which package they would like to buy before seeing the photos? What does that do for you? And did you have any pushback? Because I'm sensing that listeners are like, Whoa, hold on a second. How does that work? Could you walk me through that? Sure.

Annemie Tonken: 42:03

Maybe I didn't say this right. They actually don't make a collection purchase until they've seen their images. And I think that that's, so it's the session fee, just like with in person sales, it's a session fee. Then we have the session. And then when they get that preview, they get the preview for a short period of time, and then they purchase a collection. So before they spend any money beyond the session fee, They know because they've seen them with their own eyes that like I am delivering on what I told them I was going to, you know, hopefully they love their images and they're ready to go. And the way that I structure the collections price wise is such that I am making my minimum needs, like I'm meeting my minimum needs regardless of which collection they purchase. So I have some good strategies in place and people thankfully go for the top collection much, much more frequently, but even when they choose that smallest collection, I am good. Like it was worth my time to go have a session with them. So they're happy and I'm happy.

Raymond Hatfield: 43:05

that's a big tip right there. I think a lot of people, when first getting started, they'll structure their pricing as Well, I know that I want people to go for the middle price. So that's what I'm essentially going to make like my minimum, like what I need to survive on so that when people do go for the lowest package, they're like, Oh no, now I have to get other clients. And then that just, more work there. So I love that. Would you be willing to share what are in some of these collections? Because I know that a lot of photographers and we just have so many options when it comes to, products that are available. Are you offering everything under the sun or just a handful of this and a handful of that, and let people decide from there.

Annemie Tonken: 43:42

That's a great question. And it's something that I think you could structure it however works best for your business. I'm a big believer that like what I love about this system is that it's super flexible. You could be a very low end photographer, and if you run your numbers and so when I say low end, I mean let's say 100, 000 as the amount of money that you need to earn in the course of a year, so you could be someone who photographs 200 Clients for 500 each, or you can be someone who, you know, makes 2, 000 sales. So you only end up with 50 clients. Oh my goodness. Something

Raymond Hatfield: 44:17

like that.

Annemie Tonken: 44:18

Right.

Raymond Hatfield: 44:18

We'll go with that. We understand what you're talking about.

Annemie Tonken: 44:21

Okay, good. So the seesaw of like number, you know, volume versus, cost. So you can set that up in any way and this sales system still works and you can add in if you're a higher end photographer, there are lots of like bells and whistles that you can add in to make it feel more custom and you can do things to kind of zhuzh it up at the higher end, but at any level, it ends up being, working for you. So if you are, let's say one of those like high volume, low end photographers, so you have a whole bunch of products in your store where it's like refrigerator magnets and, wallets and all those kinds of things. That's totally fine. I tend to teach that You should get in the head of your ideal client and pick, I generally say like 8 to 10 items. And when I say items, it's like a category. So like albums, frames, not like an eight by 10 and an 11 by 14. Eight to 10 total options. And then once they decide like, okay, we want to get a frame, then they might have some options inside of there. But I used to work with an album designer or a lab that did albums and they had so many cool options and a lot of them do covers and all this stuff. And I got really into it. Cause I was like, this is great. But it kind of came back down to the choice thing. This was back in the in person sales days. I was like, which of these 85 different covers do you want? And then I was having sales sessions that went on for three hours while they like hemmed and hawed about it. So ultimately I learned that it was better to make decisions from my perspective, getting in again, the mind of my ideal client and saying, you know what? 90 percent of them are going to be really happy if they go with like linen or leather. So I'm just going to narrow it down to linen and leather, and then like seven color options within there. So I'm all about, first of all, decision making happens as a journey, right? You don't make all the decisions up front and we need to, as service providers dish those decisions out piece by piece. We can't throw all the information at someone at once and expect them to make any kind of good decision. Oftentimes they just bail on the decision making altogether. But if we're kind of doling it out in bits and pieces, then they can make the decisions like, do you want linen or leather? Okay, let's go linen. Okay, great. Do you want, which of these five colors do you prefer? So all along simple sales. I am very intentional about when someone gets to a decision point, how many things are they having to think about in this moment?

Raymond Hatfield: 46:57

I love how you broke that down very easily. Cause again, when it comes to products, there are so many, and helping people narrow it down really is going to help. So thank you for that. I'm trying to think here. If there are any objections that you get from clients, anything, like what is the biggest thing that maybe you wished, is there anything that you've changed about the system since you first implemented it to make it more successful to what it is today?

Annemie Tonken: 47:22

No big changes in terms of the system itself from my client's perspectives. I was so worried that I was going to get a bunch of my long term in person sales clients feeling like I was no longer providing the same level of service and complaining or, changing photographers, going with somebody else in my area. And, by and large, and I mean, like, almost across the board, I got not only didn't get pushback, but got people saying, Oh, this is so great. I really, appreciate not having to like schedule that follow up, appointment. And I also think that as much as I was positioning the sales session as like, I'm not, This isn't a pushy thing. And I'm not trying to like hard sell you. I said that in a more eloquent way, but of course, but I made it clear to people that I wasn't there to browbeat them into a decision. And I was not like that when we were in the sales session itself, there is still like a, um, there's still an element of, well, I'm standing here. What are you going to buy? That was awkward. No matter how you like, I got very, very used to the process and still would be like, Oh, here comes this part. So I also have a podcast and, I don't know, a while ago, I think it was around Halloween. I did a, tales from the in person sales crypt episode where I was talking about like some of the nightmare situations I found myself in. So anyway, my clients really liked it. As far as pushback that I get in theory about simple sales and the way that it works is from usually from photographers who are not interested in like one part or another. So there are a few of them. One of the things that I, I'm pretty adamant about is that even as much as I'm all about like automating things and making it super easy and whatever. I am a big proponent of having a conversation with your client with your prospective client before they book with you. And I think that there's, I could go into that. It's a whole episode unto itself in terms of like why it's important to talk to someone before they book you. And I get a lot of pushback about like, I don't want to get on the phone and they don't want to get on the phone and all that sort of thing. And so I personally, for me, that's a phone call. I like to get on the phone with my clients, but I have flexed in this way. I mean, now I have a 16 year old son who's like, I don't even know how to talk on the phone. Nobody talks on the phone, mom. And so, you know, there are again, technology is our friend. There's Voxer. There was Marco Polo. I'm not sure if that's still around, but like all these different things where you can have asynchronous conversations. Maybe that's your speed. Maybe you feel more comfortable with that. Or maybe, you would prefer to actually have a face to face conversation and you use something like Zoom. One way or the other, I think that it is important when someone is hiring you for you to be able to listen to what they have to say and respond. And there's a couple of reasons. Number one, it gives you an enormous amount of insight as to what that person's concerns are, objections are, What they're really looking for. And over time, you will find that most people have the same concerns, objections, and the things that they're looking for, at least the things that they say. However, on the buyer's end, that's their unique experience, right? They don't do this every day. It's not their job. So they don't want to be relegated to like the FAQ section of your website. They want someone to kind of take their hand and make them feel like, Nope, I see you. I see what you want. I see what you need. And here's how I can give that to you. I think that it is scary to have a conversation with somebody, especially when you're new, but you will learn so, so, so much from every single one of those conversations. Even the ones where you get a no at the end. So, you know, nobody's going to bite you. It's not like an argument. You just get on the phone, chat with somebody or get on Voxer and like address them. And not only is that going to help you, it will in, in that you'll get more insight. You will also increase your booking. absolutely. So that's my evolution on that part of it.

Raymond Hatfield: 51:34

That was going to be my next question. How many times have you been bit by clients? But I'm glad that you answered that question there. So thank you so much. Um, you know, before I let you go, again, the way that you laid out a lot of, these ideas and these topics was very helpful and going to be a very inspirational to new photographers. Since I'm not as intimate with this system as you are, is there anything that I didn't ask you today that you just want to make sure that photographers know?

Annemie Tonken: 51:59

Oh, not off the top of my head. This was great. I feel like, it was a long enough conversation because there is a lot of nuance to it. I teach the whole system. If anybody's interested in like learning more about what this is, I do teach the whole system for free in a masterclass, which you can go to, this can't be that hard. com slash simple to find, but the, steps of this. I guess the thing that I would say is that lots of different strategies can work for photographers. And if you are listening to this podcast and you are at the beginning of your photography journey, there's a lot of noise out there about, you should do this, you should do it this way. This worked for me. And those people aren't necessarily lying. I would say that I have seen people, I myself was successful with in person sales. I have seen people be successful in the long term with all inclusive sales. There's nothing wrong with either of those, if they work for you. But I do think that whichever strategy you end up going with to run your business, it's important to kind of go all in on that strategy. And I would say that that goes beyond just, your business strategy, but in all kinds of ways, like your business needs to be aligned. And if you do a lot of like, well, I'll take this from this system and this from this system, and I'll try this, you end up with kind of a Frankenstein business. And it usually doesn't work perfectly. So, I would say, if you want to learn the whole system and you really want to evaluate whether that's right for you, the masterclass might give you a little bit more of the detail piece of it. but that consistency and kind of having that alignment are key to any success in your business.

Raymond Hatfield: 53:42

Alright, let's go ahead and recap what we learned in today's interview with Annemie Tonkin. One is just to commit to a sales strategy and stick to it. So whether it's in person sales, you know, creating that luxury experience, or using an online gallery service like CloudSpot, consistency and full commitment are the key to making whatever your choice is work. But whatever you do, avoid mixing different business approaches to prevent a frankenstein of a system. So analyze your cost of doing business to determine, what is a sustainable pricing structure for you and then gradually adjust your rates to align with those client expectations and your financial goals. Takeaway number two is to simplify client choices, If you offer a curated number of options, between eight and 10 in your online store, and then you guide your clients with very clear steps to help them make a decision, that is going to prevent overwhelm. So go ahead and utilize your online gallery software like CloudSpot along with Zoom to simulate an in person sales experience. And that will, of course, maintain that client engagement, which gets them excited and gets them buying prints. Lastly, this is to prioritize the initial client conversation. So, to establish strong communication from the outset, you want to understand your clients needs. So set those clear expectations and address any potential concerns that they may have. Again, you have to engage in that pre booking conversation to understand and address those concerns. So use things like personalized videos. You know, I use a service called Loom. You can just record yourself real quick and then send it off. It's super easy. You even get like a GIF, preview in the email, along with something like a timed gallery, which you can easily do in cloud spot to guide your clients through their purchasing journey. And then you'll be all set. That is it for today. Until next week, remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.