The Beginner Photography Podcast

493: Ryan Tolbert: Digital to Analog: How to Get Into Film Photography

• Raymond Hatfield

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In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Ryan Tolbert, an expert in film photography and owner of The Boutique Film Lab, who simplifies the transition from digital to analog. Ryan shares his journey from hobbyist to business owner, emphasizing the beauty and imperfect charm of film. He offers practical advice on starting with point-and-shoot cameras, understanding film characteristics, and developing your own film. Ryan encourages you to embrace film’s unique aesthetic and simplicity, start with accessible gear, and experiment with different films to discover what works for you. 

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Start Simple: Begin with automatic point-and-shoot cameras to eliminate complexity and focus on composition and creativity.
  • Learn to Love Imperfection: Film photography’s unique charm lies in its imperfections; embrace these as part of your creative journey.
  • Explore Different Films: Different film stocks offer varied aesthetics; experiment to find your preference and broaden your visual style.
  • Understand Film’s Latitudes: Film offers more latitude for overexposure but struggles with underexposed shadows; learn to expose correctly.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  • Choose Your First Film Camera: Research and purchase a simple point-and-shoot camera like the Olympus XA2. Look for reliable sources such as KEH or eBay, ensuring the seller is trusted.
  • Experiment with Film Stocks: Buy a variety of film stocks like Kodak Gold 200 and Fuji Superior 400 to see which you prefer. Take notes on the characteristics of each film to understand their strengths and weaknesses.
  • Practice Correct Exposure: Use the sunny 16 rule to practice exposing your film correctly in natural light conditions. Overexpose by one stop to avoid losing details in shadows, especially with consumer film stock.
  • Learn Film Development: Try developing black and white film at home to grasp the basic process. Send your color film to a lab and compare the quality of basic and premium scans.
  • Build Your Kit: Start with a prime lens like a 50mm or 35mm to enhance your skills with a fixed focal length. Gradually expand your lens collection based on the types of photography that interest you.

RESOURCES:
Learn more about the Boutique Film Lab - https://www.boutiquefilmlab.com/
Follow the Boutique Film Lab on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/boutiquefilmlab/

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Ryan Tolbert:

I would say sometimes people enjoy starting with a point and shoot first. I mean, they may be shooting on manual on their digital camera now, but, for someone to pick up a film camera for the first time, an unknown film emulsion, you know, unknown results on, working with a new lab, not really having a lot of background in scanning and, that kind of thing, I think just keep it simple and a lot of times point and shoots can do a great job. So, you know, to take one kind of complexity out of the equation, And just keep it simple with automatic exposure, automatic flash. I think that would help film photographers get started.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast. I'm your host Raymond Hatfield, and each week I interview one of the world's most interesting photographers to learn what it really takes to capture beautiful images so that you can start to do the same. In today's Rewind episode, we are chatting with film photographer and owner of the Boutique Film Lab, Ryan Tolbert, about how to get started with film photography as a hobby. But first, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by CloudSpot. Impress your clients with a beautiful gallery that is easy to view, share, and download on any device. You can control image size, add a watermark, and set download limits. So you can grab your free forever account over at deliverphotos. com today and only upgrade when you are ready. Now, film photography is on the rise, more and more people are shooting film again, for a multitude of reasons, whether it's just the visual aesthetic, it is beautiful, being forced to slow down, creating something tangible, or you're just looking to try something new. The world of film photography I think it's both familiar, but also incredibly different compared to shooting digital. Like I mentioned earlier, Ryan, today's guest is the owner of the Boutique Film Lab in Nashville, Tennessee. So you send them your film, they develop it, and then they send it back. You can also get film scans emailed to you. It's great. So in today's episode, Ryan is going to share with you everything that you need to know, from picking out a film camera that may be 40 or 50 years old, how to figure out what film to use and even more advanced techniques like pushing your film to get that unique and signature film look. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's episode. Ryan, I want to know, when did you know that photography was going to play, an important role in your life?

Ryan Tolbert:

Well, I think, I first got the bug in college, right? I ended up taking, a black and white darkroom class there and started learning about analog photography. This was 1998, 99, somewhere around there. And, that time, digital was, very much in its infancy, not really, kind of full mainstream for consumers yet, even, but I mean, film was still in its peak, right? Because it peaked in 2001. I think was the film sales was the highest year for film. So, at that time, I really, enjoyed the process of developing film and making prints in the dark room, right? And I think that's where a lot of people kind of find their love for photography is they Yeah. When they can actually see that all the way through in the end, an analog state. And, a lot of people find solace in the dark room because it's oftentimes you're alone or it's quiet place. It's just you and the red light. And, especially pre smartphone era, pre social media and that kind of thing. It's just one of those places where you could go to kind of get away from everything and, just really focus on making some art and producing something. And you have something tangible and that's the real, that's the real beauty of the dark room for me was just, you know, walking away with a print and saying, I made this, and not only did I shoot and compose this, nice photograph but I developed it and I also printed it and here it is, right? So that for me, I think that's where that started. And, I was in school studying for something completely different. was looking to get into the audio industry, being in Nashville and, being around music, I really had a love for music. Still do, but, a career in that can be difficult. So, even though I was, studying for, audio recording, I ended up taking photography classes and really just fell in love. Yeah, that's, where it all began. That's kind of the roots. And then I kind of took a break, after school, photography and didn't, really shoot for myself personally or do anything, until digital kind of, improved a bit and bought my first digital camera. And. The early two thousands. And then it was just a hobby for a while until I got into full, wedding photographer mode after that.

Raymond Hatfield:

So I want to know, I'm always interested in that decision to change kind of career paths, right? Because, I'm similar to you where I went to school for cinematography, decided that I wanted to, pursue photography professionally. You thought for a long time, like audio is the way that I want to go. I love the audio. this. What was it about photography? What was it about that thing that made you think this is the path that I actually want to take?

Ryan Tolbert:

Well, I think it's just similar to audio and I wanted that to be my creative outlet. Right. And so Audio for me was, about, producing music, creating, releasing that, artistic side. And, when I saw that a long term future in, audio and in the music industry was probably not going to be the direction I was going to go, I felt like photography could be something that, could take that place and could be my creative outlet. And my wife, at the time had a side hustle, as a wedding planner. And so she was around weddings a lot. And so when I took up, photography and, or got back into it rather, then I decided, well, wedding photography, you know, is, where I'm going to focus. Cause that's something that's easily accessible to me and something that's kind of, on my mind. And so that's, where I started. And, I didn't necessarily want to do studio photography or do strictly just portraits. Right. So I thought weddings would be great because, you have the people aspect and I always considered myself more of a documentarian. And so I think that's why it led me to that is that I get to still interact with people. I'll still get to take some portraits, but I got a lot of kind of, documentary, That I can do and just kind of be that fly on the wall to, to tell a story and, And let it, play out in photographs that way. So that's where that happened.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. I resonate with that a lot. I love that, ability to be able to shoot just so many different things at a wedding and not necessarily, focusing on just, one thing. Like I only do portraits or only do, commercial work or whatever it is. So I too, like that, but I want to know now is that you bought that digital camera. You're like, I'm going to go shoot some weddings, but today you're in a very different spot where you're focused a lot on film and, you started the boutique film lab. So I want to know, like, where did that transition happen? How did that all occur?

Ryan Tolbert:

Well, so I started shooting weddings, around, 2012. And, that was fine for a while shooting all digital and just kind of, learning. I had a lot of good mentors at the time and, just kind of, really honing my skills and just getting more and more experience. You're running a photography business and being a photographer. But, after a while, I wanted, something a little bit different. And I think, probably around 2013, you know, I started to see a lot more buzz on social media about film. Started seeing a lot of, film posts and, Nashville, community had actually a, growing film community and, we had some Facebook groups and had a lot of interactions, meetups and things. And so started doing that as more of a hobby, right? Was shooting weddings digitally for clients, all client work was digital, but kind of shooting film for myself as a hobby and, just got more and more involved in film and really learning about film cameras and film stocks. I would send my film out to a lab here and there, but, just in an effort to save money, I wanted to try. to see what I could do on my own as much as possible. So I sort of learned about developing and processing my own film, learned about scanning, bought some scanners, that kind of thing. And, so that's how that transition happened is that, I got into film as a hobby, started shooting it for myself, really enjoyed it. Didn't think it was something that would ever work out for my clientele. Probably because I'm bad at marketing myself and couldn't find the clientele, right That really wanted a hundred percent film. And we can talk more about that as, you know, shooting hybrid and shooting, marketing it for clients, but at least for me, it was something that I just enjoyed doing and, I would shoot a role or two here and there at a wedding, just at my own cost. And, the more I got into that, I was like, man, I really would love to shoot, entire weddings on film, but I just didn't know if that was feasible just, due to the cost, due to the pressure, due to everything, right? So, I kind of always kept it more as a hobby, but more as I got into it deeper and deeper about more film cameras. Lots of more scanners, some more equipment started developing more and more. It's just one of those things kind of turned into a, bit of a side gig, to actually run a lab because, you know, I had a couple of clients just to be a word of mouth or like, Hey, you can develop film, you can scan some film, here's a few roles and, let's see what you can do kind of thing. And it just very much snowballed from there.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Cause today you're no longer just a guy who kind of develops his own film every once in a while and kind of just scans his own film with a regular film scanner today. It's a, bonafide business. So tell me where you're at today.

Ryan Tolbert:

Yeah. So, I mean, today, we've come a long way from where we were for sure. But, yeah, just like you, I used to be a one man show. It just used to be me. But yeah, today we're, you know, BFL has three employees plus myself, and, we process, C41 film, we have several machines for that. Process black and white. We do E6, which has been growing a bit. And we're one of the few labs out there that does ECN2, film as well. So motion picture film, that has rimjet layer on it, similar to cinestill film for people that have bought some cinestill film, but they, of course, they strip the rimjet layer off at the factory. So that can be processed on any C41 line. Uh, that's where we're at today. And, we started out, in infancy. A good week for us would be, 30, 40 rolls of film. Right. Well, I mean, I don't, yeah, in a week, maybe that would be a lot. Right. But now we, do more than that, in just a few hours. Right. So, I mean, Yeah. Yeah. So, we probably average and this is January through, March or so is probably a slower time a year for us. But yeah, we're, I mean, we're doing 1, 200, 1, 400 rolls a month or so.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my goodness. That is a lot of film. Well then I'm excited because you're clearly the guy to talk to about this because today I've been getting questions from listeners kind of about, film photography and wondering just like how to get started. And I realized that I don't really think that there's a good beginner analog workflow out there, like from the first time that you think about shooting film to like getting that first rollback. So that I kind of want to walk through all those steps with you today and see how that goes. So I guess my first question here is, when it comes to that analog, workflow, let's imagine most of the listeners who are going to be getting into film are those who maybe they've been shooting for a year or two. Like they already kind of understand how photography works. They understand the basics, but now they're thinking about shooting film. Where should they even start? Well, that's a great question. That's a very big question, but I'm hoping that you can kind of dissect that.

Ryan Tolbert:

You know, and it can be daunting because, people see a lot of great film photographs on, social media and they're like, I want to do this. I want that. I want to create something like that. I, like that look, it's very interesting. But, for someone that's, you know, it's got a little bit of a background in, photography, learning some basics of shots, some, with digital photography and a little bit accustomed to that workflow, making the transition can be a smoother. And I think. the way to get started is obviously, you know, first you need to find a camera, you need to find a film camera, and there's, a bunch of different options out there, just like there is in the digital world, but, I tell people to go check their local thrift stores, sometimes you can find some decent deals out there, some gems even really, to go check their local thrift store, Goodwill, what, have you. But then there's also tons of places, for resale, places like KEH out of Atlanta. That's, always a big one. That's where I've sourced a lot of my youth gear, back when I was getting stuff together. So I really like those guys. Of course, B and H and Adorama both have a used apartment. We're checking out there as well. So, finding used gear because let's be honest. I mean, there's not, many new film cameras being made. It's very, very few. Actually, manufacturers still make new film cameras, and there's no reason to spend that kind of money either. But, I would say sometimes people enjoy starting with a point and shoot first. I mean, they may be shooting on manual on their digital camera now, and that's great. And I, certainly, recommend that a lot of situations. But, for someone to pick up a film camera for the first time, an unknown film emulsion, unknown results on working with a new lab, not really having a lot of background in scanning and that kind of thing, I think, just keep it simple. And a lot of times point and shoots can do a great job because, there were a lot of great point and shoot cameras made, back in the heyday of film. So, to take one kind of, complexity out of the equation and just keep it simple with automatic exposure, automatic flash, I think that would help film photographers get started. So nothing wrong with a great little point and shoot, from Olympus or something like the X A2. I love that thing. I've got one works great. I've had a few cannons that are okay. And, oh man, I used to have an Olympus, stylus Epic, really, really loved. It got waterlogged on a canoe trip. And, uh, yeah, I got the roll out of it and got some pictures, but yeah, it's apparently not waterproof even in a Ziploc bag. Right. Yeah, those are some great ones. I mean, contacts make some great like the T two and some others, but they're a little spendy, but some great point and shoots. Nikon one touch is also great. There's a whole list of point and shoots that are ideal for getting started. And, they're great little pocket sized travel cameras. It's great to take on a camping trip or outdoors or, to a wedding, or even to a disposable camera. I mean, honestly, we see a lot of clients that start, from the ground and, just go out and buy a disposable, and that, can take some pressure off there too, just to see what you get, you know, and people really purposely want the look of the disposable camera, right? It's got a cheap plastic lens, so it has a really unique look, real soft edges, And you got that built in flash. It's just kind of bang on full flash right there. And, you get a lot of fall off in the background real dark kind of cavernous place. And some people just enjoy that, you know, and that's a look. That's something you can't get with any other camera. Right, right. You know, any other camera, you can try and emulate it with film presets, you can do all this, but it's not a disposable camera. It's not shot on film. That is why people seek that out. And, you would ask yourself, in 2022 with the fantastic cameras that we have on the latest iPhones or Android phones or mirrorless cameras out there, DSLRs, great lenses, all that. You can, take stellar photographs, great bokeh, sharpness, great color, all of this kind of stuff. But sometimes that's not what people are seeking. Right. And so there's a market for something else and disposable cameras sometimes fit the bill for that.

Raymond Hatfield:

You know what I love? It seems like beginners who are very focused on gear, are always excited, like, Oh, one day I'm going to upgrade to full frame. I'm going to start shooting full frame. It's like, you can shoot full frame for 11 bucks if you go buy yourself a nice disposable camera. And, that's exactly what you're going to get. You can do it. Yeah. It's not very expensive to get into this. And I love how you, talked about the point and shoot there, because I guess even when kind of coming up with, some basic questions for this, interview, I was thinking more along the lines of an SLR, you know, the traditional, interchangeable lens camera. But I think you're absolutely right. You know, If you're just getting started, like, try to remove as much, human error as possible, and if you just stick with a point and shoot camera, you can get real good. But, if we are gonna consider doing the SLRs, I don't think I've shot with many point and shoots except for maybe, disposable cameras. So coming from, SLRs, Let's think about these cameras because most of them, as you said, not many new film cameras are being made today, which means that most of them are 30 plus years old, right? What can we do to ensure that, we're buying a solid camera and not just a hunk of plastic that's going to eat our entire first roll of film.

Ryan Tolbert:

I mean, if you buy it from a reputable place like KEH there, they are all fully tested and come with a, money back guarantee and all that too. So that's, another good reason to, to buy from a, trusted source, but yeah, there's, also some great finds out there on eBay and just from, Facebook marketplace, but that's, all buyer beware stuff. Right. So you wouldn't have to. Kind of make sure you fully test it and vet that situation. And I didn't mean to, rule out the SLR. I think that's a fantastic way to start as well. And, I started with a Pentax K 1000. That's just the classic SLR out there. That it's back there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just classic SLR that I think a lot of people have or that they can get passed down from their, dad or their grandfather, grandmother, whatever. If that's available to you, use that. But yeah, you can also find some great SLRs out there at, every now and then. Maybe at some thrift stores, but also there's plenty online as well. There's a whole slew of those out there. You just have to maybe piece together, the body and the lens separately, they're not always available as a kid, I suppose, but yeah, as far as checking it out, I mean, you need to check out the battery compartment. A lot of times those will corrode because like you said, 30, 30 plus years, a lot of times they'll have an old battery in there that would, corrode and that acid would leak out. So you have to. You may have to clean out that battery compartment, which on a fully manual camera is really only going to affect the meter. So, potentially it could work even with a corroded battery compartment, but it would be ideal if you could have some kind of metering there. Just because I know, well, I don't want to assume, but I would just, think that a lot of people will be more comfortable with in camera metering versus a handheld incident meter. But if you can get a hold of an incident meter, buy yourself one from Sekonic or others, that's absolutely, highly recommended. But, Canon AE 1, a Pentax K1000. any of the Nikon, manual models, the FM, the F three, or it could go up to like an F 100. That's what, that's my personal favorite. Just cause then you'll have some aperture priority and some great metering modes there if you need it. And then, you know, Canon's got some SLRs. I'm a Nikon man, so I don't always keep track of their stuff. But, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of great SLR bodies out there and a lot of great lenses. I think that's, the beauty of film photography is that, the film history is, those cameras have been around a lot longer than a lot of those manual lenses. You actually have a very large selection. So that's the beauty there is you've got a lot of great glass to shoot through. And you know, starting out building a, starter kit, you may just want to look for a, 50 prime or a 35 prime, but yeah, there was, some great lenses produced for a lot of those bodies and that's always a great way to start, you know, no, no need to overcomplicate that either, a single SLR and one lens can do wonders really.

Raymond Hatfield:

I love it. I totally agree. So we got, a camera. Let's say that, I went ahead and, picked up a Pentax K1000, got the, uh, 50 millimeter F2 on there, whole thing, about a hundred bucks. Now we got the camera. Now we got to talk, about film, what films would you recommend if somebody brand new to film photography came up and said, where do I start? What's that first roll of film that you recommend to them?

Ryan Tolbert:

Great question. And yeah, I've got some absolute, great recommendations for that. But, the full disclosure in the state we're in right now in 2022. The real answer is it's complicated, and that's because there's a because of the pandemic because of the supply chain shortage. There is a global shortage of film, especially 35 millimeter right now. So, you may find that it's a little bit more difficult to get than it has been in the last couple of years, but that aside, my probably number one absolute favorite recommended, beginner film would be Kodak gold 200. It's just a great film, a little bit of warmth to it but great color saturation, not overly saturated. We see a lot of superior Fuji superior 400 come through the lab and that can be a great film as well or even the Kodak Ultramax. 400. But this is just my personal preference, my personal taste, but those are a little bit oversaturated in the reds and the magentas. Some people like that look. If that's for you, that's, great. But I think, the gold 200 is a little bit more neutral on that end. And, it's just a really nice film, even though it is a consumer film. I would absolutely not hesitate to shoot that for clients for portrait work or anything else. But yeah, if you need a 400 speed film, nothing wrong with Fuji superior 400 or Kodak Ultramax 400. But I think gold 200 be my top recommendation. color plus is also another 200 speed film that's really, really nice. If you can get it. It's also kind of rare as hen's teeth right now. But, for professional films from Kodak, I guess, Kodak Portrait 400 would be the go to, right? It's a very neutral 400 speed film, very neutral on skin tones, very middle of the road. I mean, there's not much to say about Portrait 400 other than it is just meant to be. You know, not to add much characteristic to anything. It's not overly saturated, like hectare 100. It doesn't have those kind of special greens like the portrait 800 does. It's not quite as moody as the portrait 160. So it's just one of those just, straight up, great films for, like you know, the name portrait comes from portraiture, right? So it's, meant to be a portrait film meant to be neutral in tone. And, that's also a great one to start with. But it is a pro film, so it has a little bit more latitude for under exposure if, you go that direction, but it is also going to cost a bit more, right? The reason I like Gold 200 is it's priced well. It comes in 24 exposure. It also comes in 36. Portrait only comes in 36 exposure. So you've got a bit of choice there on the gold. And that's why I really like it, to be honest. It's kind of my number one recommendation for someone getting started.

Raymond Hatfield:

Awesome. And I bet you'd be able to find this at the Boutique Film Lab as well, right?

Ryan Tolbert:

Yes, we do carry that when it's available, but it has been on back order for some time. And we're trying to get more stock on that. But yeah, the distributors have been out of gold. So it is becoming harder to find, but, yeah, it is something that we stock when we can get it for sure.

Raymond Hatfield:

What about black and white film? When people think film photography, oftentimes they, they associate it with black and white. So when it comes to black and white film, do you have a recommendation there?

Ryan Tolbert:

I do. Yeah. If we're going Kodak, Kodak Tri X 400 is just this classic, it's classic grain and it's a medium contrast. It's still a decent speed at 400, but has a lot of latitude. I really, regularly shoot Tri X at 1600 ISO and push it two stops in development. And that, just gives it this really punchy contrast. Great for street photography, great for photojournalism work. Makes it a little bit grittier, with the grain, but it kind of unleashes the beauty of that film. And it really is just a, classic film that, I just enjoy that look of. If you're going with Ilford, which I really love Ilford, the black and white is all they do. They're a great company and they offer a variety of different stocks, but, their competitor to that, I guess would be Ilford HP5, which is also a 400 speed film. Very similar in grain. Again, I mean, they're, kind of head-to-head competitors. So Ilford and Ilford, HP5 and Kodak Trix 400. Also, medium contrast and, definitely have a similar type of look.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm-Hmm, So if you're on the fence, buy both. Yeah. Process and just see what you like

Ryan Tolbert:

and just see. I mean, some people may not even be able to tell much of a difference there, but, there are some subtle differences. Every manufacturer has their own kind of tone curves. Sensitivity there. So definitely worth checking out. If you want something completely different on the black and white spectrum, you could look for a tea green film and that would be something, like a Delta. 3, 200 from Ilford. Or, I mean, any of the deltas are also are all T green films and from Kodak, it would be a T max, right? So they make that in a, 100, 400 and a 3, 200 as well. They just brought back a few years ago. But that 3, 200 is, something special. It really is a great film. Good for low light. And that grain has a characteristic that's just, timeless, it can make some beautiful, photographs, beautiful portraits works great at weddings. Cause it just adds to that kind of ethereal feel. And this gives it a very nice look, especially in medium format in one 20, it's just a beautiful, it really shines, nothing wrong with it in 35, it's just that that grain is definitely, a little bit more pronounced and, kind of more in your face, but, in one 20 it just, it smooths out a bit and, it just becomes a, really, really nice look.

Raymond Hatfield:

Perfect. I agree. I remember my first role still of TMX 3,200, and I shot it like broad daylight. And, those photos, I absolutely, there's still some of my favorite photos that I've ever taken. And, in fact, I think I'll post some of those photos in the show notes if I, if I can still find them. 2008? 2009? Anyway, okay.

So

Raymond Hatfield:

we have, we got our camera, we got our Pentax K1000. I'm gonna load it up with, some Tri X here. No, we'll, stick with the Gold 200, right? I'm gonna load it up with that. Is there anything that I need to know, before I go out shooting, to be able to capture, the best photos that we can.

Ryan Tolbert:

Yeah, you absolutely need to make some decisions, right? Unlike digital photography, you're a little bit locked into certain parameters there. So, if you decide to saddle up with gold 200, you're stuck at 200 ISO and that's not something that you can really change. And so that's, something that you have to get used to in the analog world is that, for that, roll of 24 exposure or 36 exposure film, you're, shooting with that same parameter in the entire role. And so, we enjoy the creature comfort in the, digital world of being able to change that ISO, that sensitivity, as our conditions change. But, with film, you have to be a little bit more intentional and, you have to know that you're, you need to create all of those at that same, sensitivity rating. So that, that same ISO. So that's, one thing that's different. You just need to plan and know what you're going to be shooting for, make sure you have the right light for it. 200 speed film works great outdoors, can work great indoors with window, with enough window light. Or it could work great with flash, but probably not good for them, you know, indoor lighting. So, you know, you seem to know your environment, what you're shooting. That's preparation, right? Just make sure you're definitely prepared for the shoot for the and knowing that, you know, going into it. So, I think recommend for most beginners starting with film, that first roll, I I would shoot the entire roll outdoors, just so you know you have enough light available light there.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's a good tip right there. That's a good tip. I know a lot of people are going to want to take photos of the kids inside of their pets, right? You know, of all these things. Yeah. Being outdoors. That's a big one. Just for the amount of light.

Ryan Tolbert:

Well, and I was also going to say, you have to remember that most film, not all, but most film is daylight balanced as well. So, shooting outdoors, and under, natural light is going to be the best fit for color balance on that. Nothing wrong with shooting indoors, but, a lot of us indoors still have tungsten bulbs and or even tungsten colored led lights, whatever they may be, but there's still that warmer color temperature. So, just know that on film that is going to turn quite bright. orangey yellow. And so that, they're not balanced for tungsten. So, unless you specifically get a tungsten film. That's the other thing you're stuck with is in the digital world, we enjoy the creature comfort of being able to adjust the white balance to our conditions. But we don't necessarily have that luxury with film where we're kind of stuck with what, whatever the film gives us. So we just need to know that we're shooting with a daylight balanced film. We're shooting at ISO 200 for the entire role. So the only other things that we have control over would be our aperture and our shutter speed, right? That's really all that we can change there. So, just need to know that you're shooting in those conditions.

Raymond Hatfield:

Now, I remember when I was in film school, our cinematography teacher would always teach us to err on the side of overexposing our film rather than underexposing, which is the exact opposite for digital. But I know, or I guess I'm assuming, that there's been advancements in technology, maybe through scanning and editing over the past 12, 14 years. Is that still good practice to do?

Ryan Tolbert:

100 percent good practice. So film has a ton of latitude, especially colored negative film. Now, let's just, make sure we're clarifying, uh, 200. Well, but specifically color negative film versus, say, a positive film like E six or black and white film even is a little different. But color negative film such as gold 200. It absolutely loves overexposure and yeah, then you're gonna err on the side of overexposure for that every time. So there have been tests done, where, film has been shot at normal box speed. It's been overexposed one stop, two stops, three stops all the way up to maybe 67 stops. And that way you can kind of see the difference. The results are pretty eye opening once you see that. But you can see how much latitude film has for overexposure versus saying underexposure, because there's also been, tests done for one stop under two stops under three stops under, and you see that it falls apart pretty quickly. So yeah, the 100 percent error on the side of overexposure, you know, even for people that don't have a light meter or a working light meter, You can use the sunny 16 rule, and that's always a good one to live by, even in the digital world. Right. but, the sunny 16 works for film if, you don't have anything else to go by and you know, that, that'll usually, get you pretty close or at least where you need to be. You know, we see a lot of film that is underexposed. And, a lot of times, especially with a consumer film stock, is that, those shadows, just that detail is harder to recover for anything that's underexposed, two thirds of a stop or more. I would say sometimes they just get really muddy, really cloudy, and you do have more latitude on a professional film stock, such as Kodak Portra or. Fuji 400 H, something like that. And that's why they're called professional stocks, right? They just, they have more sensitivity to underexposure if you air that way, but consumer stocks, they, fall apart pretty quick. Those shadows get really nasty. And when you're trying to open them up digitally, uh, you just see a lot of artifacts there and a lot of interesting muddiness. So, a lot of times, it's absolutely best to just go, If you think you're going to underexpose, just open up another stop or whatever to compensate for that. And that's absolutely the best way to go. And like you said, that is completely different than what you would do in the digital world because those highlights clip pretty easily going that way. So you're going to err on the side of underexposure because they have an amazing ability to bring up, shadow detail from something underexposed. Right, right. But yeah, it's definitely the opposite with film for sure.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay. So, now that we've got a camera, we got our film, we went out, we shot a roll. We made sure that we were outside the whole time. Just make sure that we had a good white balance. We overexposed it by about a stop, possibly more. Now we have our finished role. Right. And I remember growing up, we would just take our role or disposable camera right to Costco. We'd write our name on the bag and that'd be it done. And then we just, you know, pick it up about an hour later, with professional labs, like the boutique film lab, We got a few more options for development and scanner. Can you walk me through what some of those options are when we're getting our film developed? Absolutely.

Ryan Tolbert:

Yeah. So, these days you do have a little bit more options than you did, dropping it off at a one hour photo. We can offer a traditional, package in that, you drop off the film and you can get a set of, 4x6 prints with that. And, for a lot of people, that's, what they choose. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's, great. it's great way to, to view that film. And, you know, put those in frames, put them in a photo album, whatever you're going to do. I mean, that may be looked at these days as a bit of the old school kind of way, but that, there is still a market for that. And there are still people that want that. So yeah, you can absolutely get a set of prints with that and nothing else, just get the film developed. You'll get the negatives back cut into, strips of four and little sleeve and the way you go. But, your other options are, we can take that, And, run that through a lab scanner and, we can provide them with, digital, scans of that. So those are, JPEG or TIFF files of those images, from that role. So, At that point, you have a digital file that you can take, you can, further edit if you need to do any post processing on there, or you can, just post that straight away to social media, share that online, what have you. So, we, do that in several different sizes, right? So we offer different resolutions of those scans depending on their end use. So depending on how they're going to be displayed, we offer three different sizes for that. We call it normal, large and extra large. So those are our, three sizes, various, pixels for those, but, yeah, it really just depends on how they're going to be displayed and if they might be printed at some point later, right. Cause, the larger resolution scans are suitable for larger printing. And, we've seen some, fantastic photographs, even from 35 millimeter film. We've seen some 30 inch, 40 inch prints being made that are just beautiful. so it's definitely possible, but yeah, you, need more resolution to, make those right to get, close to that 300 DPI or so number. But yeah, from there, we can offer a set of scans. We can offer scans and prints, four by six, five by seven, eight by 10, whatever it is that they need from that. but those are the options. And of course, most younger generation probably just want scans, and, want to be able to download those when they're done and post those, to social media or, share them in an online album or something like that, back them up in the cloud. But, there are a lot of people that still want a set of prints just cause that feels tangible and that makes the whole process enjoyable just to be able to flip through, you know, photographs, right. Or just to give away, maybe, or they get a couple of copies or whatever, but, it's just nice to be able to hand someone a printed photo because, I think, prints have seemed to be, something that we just don't do as much as we used to since we're not forced to do that. Right. And in the, back in the heyday of film, I mean, you really had no choice. You drop it off at one hour photo. The product you were going to get back was a set of prints. I mean, that was just the end product, but we've got more choices these days. And so. We got more choices to share those and more ways to do that. So I think sometimes prints just get forgot about sometimes, but that is the really the grand way of presenting something to someone. And it makes it more special when you can hand someone printed versus just emailing them or texting a photo, right?

Raymond Hatfield:

I agree. Totally agree with you. I want to go over something real quick because I'm sure that some people who are listening are maybe at a slightly different level. More advanced stage. And earlier you had mentioned, that you will take out, I believe you said Tri X shoot at 1600 and then push it two stops. Yeah. Could you, kind of talk about what pushing is and, what that is for the developing process?

Ryan Tolbert:

Yeah, absolutely. So, there was a lot of confusion around this. We get questions around this kind of stuff all the time, whether you know, pushing and pulling both. But, effectively, pushing would mean that you're purposely under exposing your film. So in the case of tri X, it's a 400 speed film natively. So in the case of tri X, if we were to, under expose it two stops purposefully, right? So that would mean going from 400 to 800 to 1600. So every time you go up a stop, you're doubling that number. So 1600 ISO shooting it purposely two stops underexposed. And someone might ask, why would you do that two stops underexposed? But you're doing this intentionally, for a couple of reasons. Number one, you want the higher speed. Maybe you have lower light conditions. You need 1600 ISO to make a usable shutter speed, right? Because sometimes in a dim situation, 400 ISO just may not give you that. You may be down to a 15th of a second or 30th of a second. And you're, unsure about motion blur. So if you can go up two stops in ISO, then you can maybe shoot it around, 60th of a second or 125th And so, that helps for low light situations, but number two, pushing film just changes the look, right. And so, it's going to inherently inherently give you more contrast. It's going to give a very punchy image. So, this is a black and white film and if you shoot Tri X 400 at 1600 and have it pushed two stops. It is going to be purely black and white, right? There's not going to be as much kind of middle tones and some people just really like that in your face, kind of black and white image. I think we've all seen those, and especially, for people that, do photojournalism or street photography and just want that kind of gritty punchy look, it's an artistic choice, so that's what it's for. And that's why people shoot it that way. Even in broad daylight, on a sunny day, I might shoot 1600. Especially if you've got a camera that, can go up to a four thousandth of a second or eight thousandth of a second shutter speed, you're able to, slow that shutter down enough and still shoot at a wider aperture if you want. So, you don't always have to shoot it at the eight or something, right, if you've got enough shutter speed there, but yeah, on a bright day, you do have to be a little careful, I suppose. But anyways, so we're pushing that role to 1600, right? So we're two stops underexposed. So somehow we have to compensate for that. We have to make up for that two stops of underexposure. So, that's where you have to intentionally tell the lab that you shot this at 1600 and you need it pushed two stops, for example. There is a preset time for depending on the developer that the lab is using for that black and white film. There's a preset time that that needs to be in the developer, for, 400 ISO, right? For the box speed. But if it was shot, two stops, Underexposed, then they need to develop that for longer to make up for that, underexposure, right? That's where kind of the word push comes into play is that we're pushing that development time means we're extending it, right? So push means to extend, right? In that case. So maybe it was normally a, six minute development time at box speed. So now we're going to increase that, I don't know, 15 to 20 percent per stop or something like that. It depends on the film, depends on the developer. There's a lot of variables there, but that's for the lab to figure out the time. But maybe now we go from a six minute development time to, maybe a seven and a half minute development time or something like that. So the lab will develop it for longer. The longer the film stays in the developer, the more those shadows develop, right? Highlights develop first. And so if you, took it out of, the developer at six minutes, you're going to end up with probably some reasonable highlights, but you're going to have very underdeveloped muddy shadows. So that extra development time spending that extra 20 percent per stop in the developer is going to allow those shadows to kind of bring up closer to a medium density, something that you have usable, and it should be able to bring some detail out of that in the scanner. So, it's just extra compensation for, the different speed rating that we did on that. And again, an artistic choice in some cases, but some cases maybe a choice out of necessity because, you know, I was expecting a certain light level, but we didn't, we just didn't have it. It was a cloudy day. It was dim indoor lighting. And so we just, we had no choice but to go to 1600 and that's that. Right.

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure. Then I think that makes sense. And I really appreciate you kind of breaking down exactly what it is, because I know that, when I first learned about the idea of pushing and pulling film, I got confused. So trying to figure out how to make it work. I think you really have to test it out and you really have to see it. I mean, because it really does, as you said, it alters the look of a film. In a good way, of course. I mean, I guess depending on what it is that you're going for, but it's one of those things that, one thing that I love about film photography is that it's real. Like, light enters a camera and then like alters chemicals on, a piece of plastic essentially. And that piece of plastic can never be changed into anything else. And like that, yeah. Like it's saved forever. And then when you take that into the development process, you can still alter that process to, still be able to create an image, that you're going for and create something again, I guess, real is the only word that I can really, think of here. It's just so much fun. So, again, thank you for breaking that down for me, but now that we have our camera, we have our film, we went out and we shot it. We developed it next two questions about how long, is the turnaround time from the time that we send in our film to the time that we get scans back. And then when we do get those scans back, are they ready to be shared online or do they still require a little bit of, editing on our part?

Ryan Tolbert:

Okay. Yeah. Great question. So, typical turnaround time for most orders is about four to five business days. It can be a day or two longer if the order. It also has a mixture of other films. Like if it's not just all color film, if it's a mix of black and white, maybe some E6 slide film or some ECN2 film that might add a couple of days. typically four to five business days would be our normal turnaround time. There's always those projects that demand, expediency and that kind of thing. So we do offer, rush, options as well. So if you need a one day or a two day rush, we do have that available, for an additional fee. But typically four to five business days is the turnaround time to get those back. And, we offer a of different service levels, right? So you mentioned, kind of editing or any post processing. So we offer a basic scan and we offer a premium scan and the basic scans are all corrected in the scanner. So we, color correct each frame, for, you know, mostly a neutral kind of color tone. And, according to the client's preferences, if they specify they like warmer tones or cooler tones, there's that option available, that they can choose, when placing the order. So we'll try to, work to that aesthetic. But, for the most part we're just trying to get a good kind of middle tone out of that and neutralize any color cast that kind of come up. And then we'll correct density as well, right? So if we feel like there's some highlights that we need to try and recover some detail from, or if there's some shadows that need to be lifted up, we'll do that as well. But those are very rough, kind of coarse corrections. And those are all done in the scanner, in the scanner software, as we're scanning each frame. So we get it close there, right? We get as close as we can in the scanner, and that outputs a file. And for a basic scan, that's where we would stop, right? So that gets uploaded, right? And sent to the client as that is And with the, understanding that those probably need some more tweaking to look their absolute best, right? I mean, let's be honest, every image could use some help to look 100 percent print ready.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yes.

Ryan Tolbert:

And so, with a basic scan, you're going to get something that is, a very good starting point. And, it is something that probably could, or you could spend a little bit of time on each image, with some tone curves, with some additional fine tune color correction, color grading, tools on it. cropping every now and then, just because, in 35, well, not just 35 with medium format film to, you know, sometimes the scanners might, have the frame alignment slightly off. You'll get a slight little black sliver, a little black frame edge on the end. So with the basic scan, we don't do any cropping on that. So you might need to use a little cropping to crop that piece out, for example. But yeah, we're going to give you as good of a starting point as we can out of the gate with, a basic scan, a premium scan. We will do those same color corrections in the scanner And get it as good of a neutral starting point as we can. And then we will do some additional post processing on that. So. using several tools that we have, we'll do further, tone curve adjustments, contrast adjustments, cropping, additional color grading on that to make it look 100 percent print ready, Maybe some retouching, even like very light retouching. Like there may be some additional spots or something on the, on each frame. It might need, you know, it's analog. So things happen, right? So the images are just not perfect sometimes. And so, yeah, with a premium scan, we'll even use a cloning tool as needed. Uh, cropping. Those kind of things. So we'll spend some time on each frame frame by frame make those what we deem to be 100 percent print ready. And so, depending on your workflow and your level of comfort, the basic scan, it would be ideal for a photographer that already has a good digital workflow down and wants to take control of that editing process themselves. But a premium scan would be something for a photographer that may be shooting for a client or maybe don't have the tools or the knowledge themselves to do that further post processing, so they want something delivered to them right out of the gate. That's just ready to give a client or if it's for themselves ready to post online. And, you know, ready to go. So that's why we offer those two different levels of service there. And that's specifically for C 41 film. In the black and white realm, we don't offer a basic versus premium. It's all kind of a premium. Scan. And the reason for that is that, black and white, film the scanner software does not remove dust automatically like it does with color film. So we have to spot each frame anyways. So we, take care of some cropping. We take care of some tone curves as we go through those as well. So that's already a premium scan. And so is he six and ECN to just due to the nature of those as well. But yeah, for color, You can choose a basic or premium scan.

Raymond Hatfield:

I did not know that about, black and white scans with them not being able to automatically move the interesting.

Ryan Tolbert:

And the reason that is, some people may have heard this term or know about it, but there's a technology developed by Kodak back in the day, called digital ice. And it's built into a lot of flatbed scanners. Epson uses it, others, but that technology, it was a Kodak technology. And it's a very advanced, technology for when it was around. But I'll keep it short. I mean, I'm a, technology geek and I love to look into things real, real deep like that, but essentially digitalize is a way to figure out where the dust spots are and clone them out. And the way it does that is it uses infrared, right? So it does a quick infrared scan before it actually does the fine scan. And infrared light, if there's a dust particle on the film, infrared light cannot pass through, right? So it does a quick scan of the film and wherever the light could not pass through on the other end, it was not received. It marks that as a potential dust spot. And then it, uses a cloning technology to clone that out. It puts a little healing brush on it and does it all automatically in the software. And so color film for the most part comes out 99 percent dust free because in the, analog world, I mean, dust is the enemy. It is, is absolutely, it's inevitable. It's going to be on every film. It just happens. And we use air purifiers and we try to keep the room as clean as possible and we try to keep the film as clean as possible. We wipe it down before we scan it. We use an antistatic brush. We use an antistatic cloth. We use all air compressor to blow out the scanner. We try and eliminate dust whenever and wherever we can at the source, but you know, sometimes things squeak through. And so digital ice takes, care of that for us on color scans, but on black and white, it is, it's there, and there's just no way of getting around it. And for people that want to know why, digital ice does not work with black and white is because black and white film has a lot of retained silver after development, almost all the silver is gone on color film after it's been Bleached and fixed, but black and white inherently always has some residual silver there and that residual silver on the film emulsion shows up The light cannot pass through that. So it shows up as a defect. So if you try to scan black and white film with the digitalized technology, you'll end up with a really weird artifact, like weird cloning spots just all over your film. And it just looks pretty gnarly. So yeah, it basically, if you're telling the film scanner software that you're scanning a roll of black light, it turns off the digitalized. So. If you're wondering why black and white film a lot of times cost more to get scanned at a lab, that's why, because they have to spend time cloning dust. There are some labs that offer straight black and white scans with no, no dust correction. It's not something we do just cause to us, that's not a final product. We don't want to deliver something that, that's not kind of ready to go. We make sure it's all cloned out, but that's, why the price is also more that, that in the development. And a lot of people don't understand that either. Cause a lot of people develop black and white film at home themselves. It's very easy to do much easier than color. And cheap and all of that. And they're like, why would I pay more at a lab for black and white when it's something I can do easily myself at home and you can, right. But on a commercial level, black and white is harder to do because there's, not as many black and white developing machines to make it automated. They're much more rare. And that's why one hour photos never did black and white, right? You think about one hour photos, they were all C41. That's all they ever did was color film, black and white. Number one, I mean, consumers just didn't shoot black and white film. So there was not much of a market for it on the consumer end. But, it's also the lack of equipment, right? It's just, it's harder to develop that at a commercial level. Sure. It's easy to do one or two roles at a time in the kitchen sink. in a Patterson tank or something. it's dead easy to do, but on a commercial level, when you're trying to do hundreds or thousands rolls a month, it's much, much harder. So that's why even some labs that are still, quote unquote film labs, they may still only offer C41 or if they do, or if they do black and white, they, farm it out of house somewhere else. So that's, all the reasons why. Yeah. So, I mean, you can, get a roll of color film developed cheaper, and faster than you can with, with black and white. So the turnaround time's a little bit longer. We only run black and white maybe two to three times a week, as we get enough in. And color we do almost every day, right? So it's just, it's the 80, 20 rule, it's just the way it goes.

Raymond Hatfield:

The 80, 20 rules. That's right. Ryan, before I let you go, I want to know, is there anything that maybe I didn't ask you today that you want to make sure that, new photographers know or understand about shooting their first roll of film? Yeah.

Ryan Tolbert:

I think there's probably a lot of people that want to shoot film, but just maybe just anxious and they feel like it may be permanent, maybe something they could mess up or whatever. But just, don't be afraid to try, right? I mean, that my advice is even if you go out and fail at it, I mean, you've still learned something, right? You still, know what to change for next time. And you've still, you can walk away with some experience there. I mean, we've all messed up rolls of film. I've done it myself. From time to time we see things like loading errors where a roll come back blank, no exposures, and it probably just didn't run through the camera. You know, 35 millimeter film. It's interesting that, Kodak created all these other formats aside from 35 to try and simplify the film process all the way up until the end with APS film, right? With advantage, Kodak advantage and so forth. trying to simplify that because They also solve some issues, especially with 35 millimeter, right? mean, if you don't, if you don't stretch that film all the way over the take up spool as you're loading it, and it doesn't get firmly attached to those little, to the divots on the, take up spool and right into those sprocket holes, sometimes that'll slip and that, that take up spool will just wind and that film will never advance through the camera. So you'll end up with a blank roll or you'll end up with one, one 36 frame, multiple exposure. It'll just sit there and slip on that one frame. And it just explodes over and over and over again. That's got to be cool. Um, those can turn out pretty cool, but by the time you've done it 24, 36 times, it's pretty much just a blown out image. Right. Of course. There's going to be things that happen. There's also going to be happy accidents too, right? Light leaks and things like that. Sometimes it looked cool. But, just don't be afraid to try and experiment. I mean, that's, the beauty of analog is that it is such a, perfectly imperfect image. And it just, it's something that is so unique and has its own little fingerprint. It's worth trying. it's just one of those things, just hop in there and do it. And, you know, don't shy away from it. Cause well, I don't know how to expose this correctly or whatever, again, the point and shoot can, take a lot of that out of it with automatic exposure and so forth. But, I really urge people to just, jump in and try something new, and just make 2022 to, be a year of, exploration and kind of finding. New things. But yeah, analog photography. I mean, I never would have thought if you would ask me, even six, seven years ago, if I would have thought that film would have been where it's at today. But to be able to, run a business and to be able to see film growing new film emulsions coming online. that kind of thing. I never would have thought we'd be at that point. But here we are. And it's a fantastic world out there,

Raymond Hatfield:

right? And I don't think that I could have ended it any better than than with that sentiment right there. Just go out and just try something new. So, before I let you go, can you let listeners know where they can find out more about the film lab? and you online?

Ryan Tolbert:

Yeah, absolutely. You can find us all over the socials at at boutique film lab. and, Instagram, Facebook. Uh, you can find us on our website at boutique film lab dot com. You can place an order there. We have online ordering. We accept film from all over. So, you can mail it in. We're primarily a mailing film lab and, we're happy to start a relationship and communicate with our, clients, and really part of favorite part of my day. A lot of times it's just picking up the phone from a prospective client. And they're like, I want to send you guys some film. How do I get started? Where do I go? And then, I'm always happy to carry that conversation. So I love talking with film photographers. I think it's definitely a highlight of, my day when I get to meet somebody new and just really, get to build a relationship, make a connection. So, we're excited to work with everyone.

Raymond Hatfield:

Perfect. Well, Ryan, thank you again for coming on the podcast and sharing everything that you did. Obviously about how to get started in film photography. I know, as you said, it's not always the easiest thing, for new photographers to do. There is this air of pressure. Scariest to it, but I think that you broke it down in a way that makes a lot of sense. And, I'm excited to shoot some film and send it your way as well. So again, Ryan, thank you so much, for chatting today. I look forward to keeping up with you and everything that you got going on here in the future.

Ryan Tolbert:

My pleasure. Very great talking with you as well.

Ryan in and out:

All right, let's go ahead and recap what we learned in today's interview with Ryan Tolbert. Number one, just start simple. Begin with an automatic point and shoot camera to eliminate that complexity that, film has because you can't see, instantly what the photo is going to look like. And then, you know the point and shoot camera is going to let you focus on composition and your creativity as well. So research and purchase a simple point and shoot camera. I have bought plenty of cameras on keh. I've also bought cameras on ebay as well it's a great place to start. Next is to learn to love the imperfections of film I think one of film's charms, I guess if you want to call it that It's imperfections. You know, it is not perfect. It is not digitally sharp. So embrace this element of film, as part of your own creative journey. You never know what you're going to get when you open up, your photos, so by a variety of film stocks, call that gold 200. I got a bunch of that Fuji's superior 400, is also a good choice just so that you can see which one you prefer. And then, as you do that, take notes on the characteristics of each film so that you can understand their strengths and their weaknesses because some film stocks shine better than others in different situations. And lastly, understand film's latitude. So film offers more latitude for overexposure, but it struggles with underexposed like shadows and stuff. So it's the exact opposite of digital photography and with film, you need to learn a new way of how to expose correctly. So you can use the sunny 16 rule to practice exposing your film correctly in natural light conditions when you're outdoors and then just, make it a habit of by one stop. So, you avoid the potential of losing any detail in your shadows, especially with a consumer stock like Kodak Gold 400, or Fuji Superior 400. And that's about it, you know? So until next week, remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. I'll talk soon.