The Beginner Photography Podcast

489: Kate Nick Story: Attracting Photography Clients Fast and Slow Marketing Tips

• Raymond Hatfield

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In this episode of the podcast, I chat with Kate and Nick Story, experts in marketing strategies for photographers and dynamic duo behind BookMoreBrides.com . Together, they talk about the significance of balancing slow and fast marketing methods, developing a clear brand, and leveraging social media to build a sustainable business. Kate stresses the importance of understanding client desires and crafting your services around them, while Nick highlights the value of authenticity in interactions. 

The Big Ideas:

  • Balance Marketing Methods: Use both slow (SEO, blogs) and fast (ads, social media) strategies to draw in clients and sustain growth.
  • Clear Branding: Define your style and branding to attract your ideal clients and stand out in the market.
  • Client-Centered Service: Focus on what potential clients want and need, rather than just selling a service.
  • Strategic Social Media: Be consistent, clear, and tell compelling stories to connect with your audience.

Photography Action Plan:

  • Refine Your Brand: Identify your unique style and strengths as a photographer. Craft a clear and compelling brand message that speaks to your ideal clients.
  • Optimize Your Website for SEO: Research and use relevant keywords in your content to improve search engine rankings. Regularly update your blog with useful, client-focused content.
  • Engage in Social Media Marketing: Create and follow a content calendar with consistent posts. Share client stories, behind-the-scenes, and your professional journey to engage followers.
  • Conduct Market Research: Interview past and potential clients to understand their needs and preferences. Use their feedback to tailor your services and marketing messages.
  • Network and Collaborate: Reach out to wedding planners and venues for styled shoot collaborations. Partner with other professionals in the industry to expand your reach and portfolio.

Resources:
Learn more about marketing your wedding photography buisness - https://www.bookmorebrides.com/

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Kate:

If you can tell a story about your photographs, which I would imagine you probably have a million stories about how you captured that photograph. What sparked your interest? What made you think, oh my gosh, I have to get that. They're going to love this. Knowing how to tell that story and to be able to share that is going to help people to connect more easily with you. Start with this, start building up a following and be strategic about it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield. In today's rewind episode, we are chatting with Kate and Nick Story about how to make attracting your ideal client easier with slow marketing. But first, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by CloudSpot. Simplify your growing photography photo business with studio management, organized clients, send professional contracts, automate invoice payments, and more keeping track of everything just got a lot easier. You can grab your free forever account over at deliver photos. com and only upgrade when you and your business are ready. When I knew that I wanted to go full time as a wedding photographer, I spent, honestly, so much money, to start booking brides as fast as I could. From literally, like, a premiere listing on both The Knot and WeddingWire, to Facebook ads, so many Facebook ads, and attending expensive bridal shows. That's what, That's what I did. Cause I thought that that's what you had to do and did I get bookings? Yes, I did. but it's not until I started implementing many of the things that today's guests, Nick and Kate's Story are going to share with you that bookings not only became easier but also much more cheaper, albeit slower. So in today's episode, you are going to learn what is slow marketing and how to balance it with fast but costly marketing, how to create client centered services, you know, the things that your clients actually want and need rather than just selling services to sell the service, and how to be strategic with social media, creating clear and compelling stories that your audience can connect to. Lots here. With that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Kate and Nick Story. Usually when I'm chatting with photographers, I ask like, when did you know that photography was going to play a major role in your life? Which it normally does, but with you two, it's a little bit different. So why don't you start off just by telling me who you are, what it is that you do, and, how, what it is that you do can help photographers.

Kate:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, just like many of us in the wedding industry or in photography, it's like, we didn't start here necessarily. Right. We don't always start in the wedding industry. So, my background is actually in marketing and digital marketing, public relations, pretty much anything writing and talking. Let's, let's boil it down to that. I was that kid that always walked around with a notebook writing stories and, you know, always wanting to tell people's stories. So I married into the right family. First of all with the last name of story. Yeah And so yeah, so and then with Nick you want to a little bit about yours?

Nick:

Yeah, I was actually Really committed to being a special ed teacher for over like what 15 years or whatever and I really love working With students of all levels from you know, special needs on up. I just love being able to take a big problem And break it down to small pieces and just I like coaching and being with people So this world kind of came on to us. We've always been pointed towards it, but this is where It's kind of come to a head.

Kate:

And really how we got started in the wedding industry is we do have a different business that we started with and we still run, it's a wedding video, alternative that we offer. And so that's how we came to be in the wedding industry, but we've always loved the marketing and the business side. And, Bookmore Brides is a brand that's been around for over 10 years now. We were originally students of the original founder. So if you've been in photography for a while, you may have known the original founders, Stephanie and Jeff, and, we came on board with them and started working with them.

Nick:

We wanted some help doing digital marketing. Yeah. Little did we know, you know, that they wanted too. It was their, wonderful business, they wanted to pass it on to another husband and wife couple like that. People like wanted to know how we were doing what we were doing. So it was a perfect fit for her. Yeah.

Kate:

Yeah. So we, took over the business, late 2019, perfect timing with, uh, all that we knew would happen in 2020. but we found actually that the timing worked quite well, especially for our students and the people that we work with at Bookmore Brides, because, if you weren't online before, you have to be now. So this has been a wonderful time to really focus in on the online side of growing your business, whether it's, you know, with your listeners, it's photography and making sure that you have all of the marketing, correct. The business operations, the sales, the messaging, all of that. So that's what we do.

Raymond Hatfield:

Gotcha. Okay. Thank you for explaining that. it's one of these things I love to talk about because I think one of the reasons why I started this podcast was that I love to hear, points of view from many different people, I feel like I'm pretty good at taking everybody's point of view, figuring out what is going to work best for me, and then applying that to what it is that I do. However, over time, I've realized that the listeners, there's a very wide range of listeners and what they struggle with and how they learn best. So let's say that for the course of this interview right here, we're going to be thinking about listeners of the beginner photography podcast. And let's just assume that we are referring to somebody who is a weekend warrior. And they are somebody who wants to get started in photography. So they started off by talking to family, they started off talking to friends and getting those clients. But now That pool is kind of dried up, right? So now they need to start looking elsewhere. What are the roadblocks that they are facing right now to enable them to take their photography full time?

Nick:

It's funny because this is what we see day in and day out we probably talked to people yesterday.

Kate:

Yeah

Nick:

about this, but you may be great at what you do and you may You know have beautiful pictures, but if no one else knows about it and your friends and family You can't share your gift with the world because if you do a good job These couples deserve to be shot by you and be able to have their memories captured on their wall like we do out there But if they don't know about it, it doesn't really count. So we help a lot of people clarify. You know, it's like trying to do what you do with pictures and putting it into words is just a difficult thing for most people So helping them be found and helping them when they're found like be clear on it Is where most people struggle with because there's a thousand little things from chat widgets and all that stuff That really only support putting you forward online so that you can get in a real relationship With your couples, right? Yeah. So what are some of those struggles? All the struggles they can Well,

Kate:

Yeah. A lot of times a metaphor that Nick uses a lot as being called the billboard in the woods. Mm-Hmm. basically you what we teach, you have a, you have this wonderful photography. This beautiful work that you do. But your, billboard, you know, essentially to let people know about you is hidden in the woods. So what we do is we help get you get that billboard out of the woods by the freeway. So there's a couple of different ways that we do that. And I would suggest if you're just starting out that you really start thinking about, first of all, the knowing the difference between fast and slow means of bringing in traffic. So let me break that down a little bit. So, Slow means of traffic are what you might hear a lot of people telling you that, Oh, you need to be blogging. You need to build up your SEO, all those kinds of things. Yes, absolutely. You need to be doing that, but that's a slow process of bringing in leads. It's going to take time to bring in people with those methods. So it's something that you have to, you do have to do. So that way it has time to catch up and kind of work, behind the scenes while you're doing Some of the other fast methods, which is means where you're going outwards and you're letting people know more directly about you. So that could be paid ads, that could be going on social channels and using strategically using hashtags and specific content that's going to speak to your ideal audience and helping them to understand why you're different, what you offer, how you're going to make their, ultimate goal come to reality by hiring you. So that's understanding the difference of, the different methods that you might take with, marketing those slow versus the fast is I think a really good place to start so you can figure out, okay, I need to start with this. Start writing some blogs. Make sure my website is up to speed. I've got some good SEO key terms, but not just doing that and calling it a day because that's going to take forever to build up your business. But on the other hand, if you are only focused on the fast methods, if you're just throwing money at paid ads, if you are only doing social media posts and never creating an online, I'm sorry, an email follow up series or anything like that, You're not going to it's basically you're constantly looking for that next lead you're hunting for it And you so you need the two working together in order to have a business that continues to sustain and grow

Raymond Hatfield:

That was like a that was like a business 201 class right there That was that was a lot of advanced topics and i'm sure that you know I'm sure that some of the listeners right now are thinking oh my gosh email follow ups. We got to have the website There's a lot going on drew a

Kate:

lot out there as like a foundation, but we can dig into it even more So yeah, this is Go ahead.

Nick:

So like SEO in a slow way is that billboard you're putting by the woods. You want to let them see them, come into you say, you know what, I want to call them. Where the fast way is just going where the people are at. And that's what marketing is just going where they're at. Back in the day, it was sending postcards to people's houses and the yellow book. Well, we don't do that anymore, right? Now it happens to be Instagram and in the future it'll be something else, but it's just going to where those lovely couples are at and the ones that you really want to work with because that. Makes the difference. So if you think having you found that in your pic that you want There's certain couples that you identify with that like really love what you do. How do you find them? Like

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. So I have a question for you and that is well first I guess I just want to break it down and make it clear The roadblock that new photographers are facing is just simply that they're not getting in front Of people. Is that right?

Kate:

Yeah. And so if you want, I can take this even further down. So first I, maybe what I'm doing here is what we often teach about with our students called the curse of knowledge. Basically, you know, too much about your craft, too much about what you do, and you need to keep bringing it down to more understandable terms because you're great at what you do, but your, clients don't understand what you're how you're different than the, hundreds of other photographers that they see online or may have had recommended to them or that they may know through friends of friends. So we have to make sure that we are putting a clear identity for ourselves in front of our clients and making sure that we're getting to the heart of what it is that they truly want. And I can give you an example with this. We have two photography students in particular that I often give the example of in our programs, and one of them is a couple, and their style is very artistic and moody and really it's, gallery worthy. It's that's the style that they like to shoot in. That is what their clients want. That's why they come to them. However, we also have a student. She likes to do more of the light and airy, the very bright, natural light, some light posing and things like that. Those are two very different styles. So it doesn't mean that you can't shoot in both styles, but you need to, especially if you're just starting out, start by choosing a style that you want to focus on that you want to do more of and attract more clients on, to get that level of photography. And that's the type of work that you need to showcase in your social posts, on your website. That's where you need to make it because we have to make it clear to them what kind of style they're going to get. Because if you have on your website that kind of dark and moody style that, the one couple has, and then you have a couple of the light and airy, that the other photographer has. it's confusing to your clients. They're like, well, which one am I going to get? I don't really like this particular style. I want this one. And so we have to, first of all, make it clear visually what it is that we are offering for our clients and making sure that they know what it is that we do and what we stand for so that they can make a more educated decision. So that's like kind of the base level.

Raymond Hatfield:

That was perfect. I think that a lot of people here are, I hope that they picked up on the fact that you said, you know what, you need to have a style truly before you should be getting into the business and really trying to sell it. Because if you don't, how do you know what it is that you're trying to sell? That is a huge thing that unfortunately a lot of new photographers kind of put the cart before the horse and get into the business and then try to find the style afterwards, which is very unfortunate, but I do want to go back to something that you said there, which is ultimately we're just trying to sell. To a couple or yeah in this case a couple for their wedding. What was it that you said at the core, you want to get at the heart of what it is that they want, right? I was hoping we're not selling our service we're trying to give them what it is that they want and show them how we can fit into that. Can you break that down just a little bit more?

Kate:

Yes, that's where I wanted to go if I

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah, I had a person last

Nick:

night talk about this. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead

Kate:

and then i'll give some additional

Nick:

So we're talking about later We usually do it earlier, but they're in australia. So what basically when you say sell all sudden probably half your listeners are cringing like oh, it's a four letter word. Yeah Yeah, okay and when I talk to people, they eventually say, you know what? It's a mindset I have. I really don't want to be a salesperson. I want them to just look at it and say, yes, here's my, here's my money. Here you go. Right. And I, we have to spend a little time helping people understand that you can still be you. You can still be artistic. You can still be everything. You don't have to be slimy salespeople. You just need to find people who want. What you have and know in your heart that you are going to do a great job for them. They deserve to have your photos and you deserve to have their business. So it's really an exchange between a couple and you that you guys are. On that clarified message because

Kate:

yeah,

Nick:

simple create, you know, like Yes,

Kate:

exactly and like you just want to be like, yes

Nick:

I'm going to fulfill what you need and they're happy they pay you you get them wonderful pictures and you give more value both you get more value than that that takes the mystification off the sales because like as soon as I said sales I was like Everybody's probably cringing. Yeah, sorry long story before

Kate:

So then the question I think the next logical question is okay so then how do you get to the heart of that? How do you attract those couples? Right? So going back to those two examples that I gave, the dark and moody style versus the light and airy style, the dark and moody photographers, their couples, ultimately the reaction that they wanted from their wedding photos was that once they had them, them printed and framed in their home, that their friends and family would come over it and say, Is that you guys? Oh my gosh, that is stunning. That's like a work of art. That should be like in a gallery somewhere. That is the reaction that their couples want. So that's what they display on their website. That's what they put on their social channels. That's the type, then they speak to that type of language that attracts that certain that style, people who like that certain style. Whereas the other photographer with that light and airy style, what her couples truly want is that when they have their pictures printed out, put in their homes or anyone sees their pictures afterwards that people will say, Oh my gosh, these are like the best pictures I've ever seen. If you look at how beautifully you're like, you know, you just look so gorgeous. It just brought out this natural beauty and, wanting to basically, they want a record of how they looked, it's like the best you're ever going to look in your life, right? It's on your wedding day and they want that. They wanted to have this beautiful representation of how their day looked so that they can think about the memories that came with that. They can see like, Oh, I remember how I felt. Look at the emotion. That my photographer captured, which is so clearly displayed on my face and on my, you know, my new spouse's face. That's how you figure out the heart. What is it that our couples want beyond just beautiful photographs or a record of the day? Like I said, it's either it's that reaction that they're looking for at the end of the day from your photographs. That's what we have to understand.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay. So I think that a lot of listeners right now can kind of picture in their minds what they want their couples or their families or whatever it is to say about their work. But if we're just getting started, how do we get those answers? How do we know for sure that, what a couple would say about, working with us or, how our photos make them feel?

Kate:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that this would be a good time to interview a couple of some people that would be your ideal couples, whether you're working with them now or not, because likely you went into photography because you probably photographed someone that you really cared about. And you're like, wow, I really like these people. I really like doing this. Maybe I should do this as a job. Maybe I should, you know, and so think about who are those couples that you love to work with? Who are those clients that make you excited to want to go photograph? And you're like, if I could just have 30 more of those clients, if I could just have 30 more of those, boy, I would just, I would be so set. I could just make this my full time career. If you're the weekend warrior, I can start putting money away and start slowly replacing my income so I can make this my full time job if that's your goal But making sure that you are talking with these couples. So find that couple or those couples that you really connected with that you feel really embody the type of people that you want to work with and ask them questions. Like how do you want to feel? How do you want, when you look at your photos that I'm gonna, I'm gonna take of you or that I were to take of you, how do you want to feel when you look at those pictures? Do you, what do you, what's the reaction you want people to say? What is it that you are hoping that I will capture? When I photograph you like those sorts of things, not only will that help you to identify your perfect client, but secondly, it's going to give you the language, the exact words that your clients are going to say. And then if you can turn around and use those exact words phrasing in your marketing and in your business efforts. That's how you're going to start bringing people in because they're going to think, oh my gosh, it's like, it's like they're in my head. How did they know? That's exactly how I feel.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, that's perfect. but that perfectly leads us into kind of the next realm here, which is marketing. And I think that marketing. It's probably more of a four letter word than selling to most photographers just because it's so, it's so unknown and it's, aggravating inside if this is not what we're used to. I like to say that, especially in my example personally is that like I got into photography. Because I loved photography. I didn't, you know, there's that phrase, like I grew up with a camera in my hand. It's like, I didn't grow up with a marketing book in my hand. These are the things that we all have to figure out. You might have. These are the things that as photographers, it's like, we have to figure out now. And it's confusing. It's this whole world. So with marketing today, with digital marketing, there are a million. different avenues to market ourselves. So I got two questions for you. One, I guess we'll just start there. What are the most popular, avenues for marketing? What are the most popular marketing, avenues that are working today?

Kate:

Well, it's a big

Nick:

topic. Yeah.

Kate:

Yeah. Do you want me to say, okay, so. So it's going back to that. Yeah, you know what, go ahead and start with the framework. When you start thinking that

Nick:

marketing, oh, this is bad. Okay, like with photography, you're capturing, okay? Marketing is just messaging. It's just you, you're capturing it and you're just kind of relaying it back to people. Your marketing is a gallery. It's something that like, you put your best foot forward so other people can say, Yep, That's it. That's for me. But how do you do that's the question. You know, where do you do that? Trust me. There's a thousand avenues out there and it's kind of like workouts. A lot of them will work if you just do it the whole way, you lift the weights, you'll get stronger. But there are some that are quicker than others. So that work better for

Kate:

you than others. So, going back to, we touched on a little earlier about ads, about paid ads. Okay. Some photographers will have some great success with this. Others won't. They'll spend hundreds, thousands of dollars. Trying to run ads and not get the desired results. And this is why, first of all, it's really helpful to speak with someone who understands digital marketing. So that way they can give you some feedback because the question then becomes, if it doesn't get you the desired result, you have to examine why, why didn't it work? And we find that a lot of times it has to do either. Sometimes it's the ad itself, just the way that it is. It's phrased, perhaps the direction in which it is sent, you know, what is the next logical step that you're trying to get people to take after that ad. Maybe that wasn't clear or phrased correctly, but it could also be that once they get through the ad and they land on your website, it could be that they didn't really like what they saw, you know, and, that could be because of the design of your website. It could be because you have confusing images, like we talked about earlier, the two different styles, your messaging could be, more on the artistic side rather than clear, trying to be clever or esoteric rather than trying to, make it clear what it is that you offer them and how it's going to benefit them. So that's, the first area is just examining why those methods wouldn't work, but One of the easiest ways to get out there right now is social media, that it still remains a very easy way. It's free unless you, you know, decide to run some ads, but it's a great way to get started. But you have to, again, be strategic about it. Just throwing up pictures onto your Instagram account and, choosing some random hashtags and having a caption that says like, fall vibes, or something like that, you know, is it's not going to get So there's some ways that you have to be very, very, again, very clear about what it is that you are offering them and what their experience is going to be like when they hire you. Are they going to get what it is that they ultimately want? So knowing that and being able to clearly demonstrate that is going to help, help make sure that you're picking the right pictures that you're putting on there. that you've got that right style demonstrated, that you are showing in those pictures the experience that they're looking to get. So again, if you're, if your style is where you're more, let's say that fly on the wall, you're, just kind of observing, you're allowing the day to unfold and you're just capturing those hidden moments and everything. That's the type of photographs that you want to show because and then talk about the story behind it. If you can tell a story about your photographs, which I would imagine you probably have a million stories about how you captured that photograph. what sparked your interest? What made you think, Oh my gosh, I have to get that. They're going to love this. Knowing how to tell that story and to be able to share that. Is going to help people to connect more easily with you. So that's a great place to start is by storytelling on social media for free. Don't, don't pay for ads just yet maybe start with this, start building up a following and be strategic about it. And I can go deeper into it, but I'm trying to keep it. I'm trying to keep it low.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, that was understandable. I'm just trying to think about where I want to go next, because you said some things in there that I do want to dive deeper into, but I think the with us ending right here on social media, it kind of leads into a question that is, honestly, you know, I feel like every day that goes by, I enjoy social media less and less and less, and it's to the point to where it's like, honestly, right now, I don't know if I truly want to be on it at all. And I hear that a lot from listeners as well. So how can we as business owners. in a social media forward world, how can we, deal with that? You're not necessarily photographers, but you see people online and they're doing Facebook lives and they're doing, you know, the reels and they're doing the stories. They're masters of Instagram with the hashtags and the stories and all of this. And it's like, that's great for them. But I guess, how do we know what is right for us? How do we know how much social media is enough? to be able to get the results that we're looking for?

Kate:

That's a

Raymond Hatfield:

very big question there. Does that make sense? No, no, I understand. It's true.

Nick:

Like is it working or not is one of the first questions you have to ask yourself because busy doesn't mean necessarily that it's working. Successful. Now that could be you're not working or right, which is a whole clue, but we do need to get in front of those couples and if they're not here Then they must be there but people have that question and they want to find you somehow So that's kind of part of the question is like well Where do I need to go next and what's right for you? Because if you don't like like I don't want to do reels and stuff like that. She does them. She's great at it It's her thing. You know what? She's very successful with it But like if it's not you you got to do you but you also might have to try a little wrong This is exactly it

Kate:

it's like So that's the thing. You know that you need cardio, I like the workout example, I'm going to go with that. If you know that you need cardio, but you hate running, well, then find another method, but we have to make sure that it's accomplishing the goal. So let me go back to our specific industry here. So we have to think again, where are our clients? Okay. If we are doing weddings. then likely your couples, thinking strategically are probably within a certain age range, probably between, what, 25 to 40, maybe, you know, give and take a little on each side, right? That's kind of a general, age range and everything. Well, where are those people most frequently? And this can be, this can also vary depending on where you are. if you're in a part of the country, Where, you know, it seems like everybody that you know of that, that age is on Facebook, go to Facebook, but in general, I will tell you the statistics do show that 25 to 40 age range are most often on Instagram. That's a great place to start. Doesn't mean that you have to, you also have to get on TikTok. You have to get on, you know, all these other different things. You have to be on YouTube, all these things that can really stress you out. Just start with one, start with one and test it out for a little bit. See how it goes. But the biggest thing that you can do is just to be consistent. Make sure that you have a post. I always recommend for pretty much every single channel is once a week. Like bare, bare minimum. Now that's just going to basically show that the lights are on.

Nick:

That you

Kate:

have a business. It's still operating once a week is going to show that the lights are on. If you want to get into growth mode, you're going to need to do it more frequently, like three to five times a week. Okay. And as much as we, we don't like, especially if you're someone who just. Like you said, you're enjoying social media less and less. I get it. I get in those times like that, too, because it can seem very overwhelming. Sometimes it's hard to not encounter a lot of negativity on those channels. But if you kind of keep your eyes focused on your ultimate goal, which is to get in front of these couples that you want to work with and showing them, hey, you've got a problem. Um, Well, I've got a solution for you. Let's come have a conversation. Let me help you out with that. That's ultimately what we're trying to do with our social media presence. So if we can just focus on that, that we are on there for the sole purpose of providing our clients with those beautiful photographs and that hidden desire that we talked about earlier. We can just stay focused on that. That's going to help you, stay consistent and it's going to help you want to be on there a little bit more because you know that you're going to be doing what you love more often.

Raymond Hatfield:

I feel like every answer that I get from you. I have nine more questions that pop up, but still trying to like, this is fantastic. I can tell how knowledgeable you are. I just need to try to keep this, in order here. You had said one of the most important things was, figure out where your clients could be. And in this case, let's just take the Instagram example. And then you said, get on there, test it out. What does testing it out look like? Because I know plenty of people will put up the one post, put up a second post, put up a third post, and say I didn't book 15 weddings, like, this is not working, you know? Is there an easier way that we should test it

Nick:

out? It's the same thing with everything. If you write one blog post, you're not going to get a flood of weddings. If you do one Facebook ad, which you probably don't know how to do, right, it's probably not going to come. But, it does work. ads work. Blogging works and you have to test things. So does social media. You got to test things to make sure it works. Because what I was going to say is you just need enough sales to get you through now till later. So when we're working with people in phase three of our business roadmap, who are like multi ops or are doing things, They've moved into now they've got SEO going all kinds of people are coming each month to look at their websites They've got all kinds of blogs about things And they're less worried about having to run out there for the sale and catch them on instagram They do it and they have help doing it. But like they've got to the other side It just takes a little while and they had to start

Kate:

somewhere had

Nick:

to start some they had to start somewhere

Kate:

So for the testing question I know your listeners probably are not going to love to hear this, and I'm very, very sorry, but this is how we have to test it. You have to give it, I would say, minimum three months. Because we have to have a consistent enough presence over enough time and we have to say, so this is why it's important to understand your ideal client, what it is, what is that hidden desire, that heart, and just keep sharing that message in different ways through your photographs by being strategic, making sure and like I said, I'm trying to not get too deep into it, but making sure you're being strategic about your hashtag usage, making sure that your bio on Instagram is set up in a way that's going to make it easier for people to find you. There are just a couple of different ways that it's like, You just need to, to maybe do a little bit of education on that and to learn about how you can do this correctly. But then you have to stick with it for a little bit of time. And that three month window, sounds challenging, but it can be done. Especially if you plan it out, take like an afternoon. You know, a day where you don't have an evening, maybe if you're, if you're a weekend warrior, sit down on like a Wednesday night where, you know, you're not, you're not necessarily talking with clients or anything like that. And just sit down and right out and plan out those, posts that you're going to do and the way that you can plan them out is by again. Think about what is it that your clients are really looking to accomplish? What are the questions that they have when they're looking to hire a photographer? What are the, concerns that they might have about choosing the right one? How do they know if they're going to get the right one? Um, These are some of the things when you start thinking about what your answers would be to that. So that way it's speaking to that hidden desire and you're focusing on what it is that they're trying to get out of it. It's going to make it a little easier to come up with that content and make sure that you know that you are sharing content that's going to connect with them and just start writing it down. And then you can organize it later, but at least you have something so that way you can continue to go back to the well, post it on there and make sure that you are. Giving it an opportunity for the algorithm to start working, start bringing in the right people. And like I said, that's a whole, that could be a whole episode on its own is how to use Instagram to bring people in but I'm trying to stick to the basics of it.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's going to be like a 10 part episode and it's going to have to change next month because everything on Instagram changes as well. Um, I love what you had said there about kind of, posting about what are the questions that they have? What are the things that they're worried about? Because. Ultimately, and I think we were talking about this before I hit the record button, but it's like, as you know, where we are, and where our position is, we know what the issues that they are having, but they might be unaware of what those exact problems could be. So you're suggesting that we get ahead of that and share with them what the problems that they could be facing, and then share our solution to that as well?

Kate:

Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah.

Kate:

No, I was gonna say, one of the ways that I've heard it phrase is that basically there are, three problems that your clients, you know, and this, spans across many different industries. This is kind of a marketing principle. A business principle is that your, clients are facing. three major problems in their life. It's one is it is an external problem. One is an internal problem. And often there is a philosophical problem to it. Okay. So this is from Donald Miller. Donald Miller shares this, uh, you know, yeah, exactly.

Nick:

He

Kate:

says it well, and it's like, it's so clear when you think about, okay, so let's, look at it from a photography standpoint. Their external problem is they need a wedding photographer. Like I need somebody to photograph my wedding. That's the external problem. The internal problem that they're facing is how do I know that I'm going to get the right one for me, that I'm going to get the photographer that's going to capture what it is that I truly want, which is again, are we looking for the gallery or the gallery style where it looks artistic and, you know, uh, posed. It looks incredible from an artistic standpoint, or am I going to get those, natural shots, those candid moments that that's what I really wanted. We have to know that. Okay. So, and, and being able to answer that based on our specific clients needs, that's the internal problem. And the philosophical problem for them is it shouldn't be so hard for me to have to figure this out. I just want this for my wedding, like they feel like they're trapped in this, difficult, cycle of like seeing thousands of photographers at all different styles. And how do I know which is the right one for me? That is their philosophical problem is it shouldn't be this hard for me to find somebody who gets me and can get pictures of my wedding. Listen

Nick:

to what she's saying. Seriously. Cause on the sales end, which I like to help. Imagine your customer, you three months from now, 90 days from now, but you know, down the road or whatever, but they've got that from you. You put that out there. They're feeling like good. That's it. That's right. Okay, that's right Website's good and they get to you and you've already answered like all those internal feelings external feelings

Kate:

75 of your job is just

Nick:

to not mess it up They just want to know there's a real person there who cares and gets me that you know There's a website your picture looks good. But what if it's not? You know, when they meet you, they want to say, Oh, they connect with you. Right. They, that this person gets me and they're going to deliver what they do. And it's pretty much saying you want to, you know, you want to buy some everybody else. It sounds silly, but I mean, sometimes your job is just to be quiet and say, I would love to help you in your wedding. I'm available that day. You want that? I can do that. You know, let's sign you up because June gets filled up pretty quickly. Yep. And kind of go through there without all the drama, but picture yourself having that conversation so much better than if you hadn't have answered all those questions. If they didn't that, you're just coming, Hey, I just want to learn about photography. How much do you cost? You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Kate:

When you can get this right online, like what Nick was saying is basically our goal is to be able to communicate clearly enough that we understand them. We understand what those deep seated desires are. What's at the heart of what they really want out of their wedding photographs. If we can answer all of that as clearly as possible online through our website, through our social posts. Again, not to get too, freaky or scary for everybody, but through email series, all those kinds of things, if we can get them 75 percent of the way there, because we've already like answered their basic questions and made them feel like, I'm pretty sure this is the one, they really understand me, they get me, they, I like their style, I like what's going on here. Then the question, all it becomes is they're going to get on the phone with you and say, okay, are you available on my date? What kind of packages do you have to offer? That's the goal. That's what we're trying to do. It sounds overly simple, but that's the thing we have. We have seen this many, many times with our students. If you get this right. That's their experience. That's what it comes down to.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay, so, just because I know that many of the listeners right now are thinking, this sounds great, this sounds wonderful, I see how the pieces work together. Can we go just a little bit more, technical here? And when we're thinking about these social posts, are there like four or five questions specifically that we should be answering, to our brides? What are the questions that we could be posting on Instagram, that would help our brides feel more comfortable with working with us? Not your equipment. Please. Yes. You're right. So true.

Kate:

So true. Yeah, this is okay. We talk

Nick:

about this all the time. Yeah.

Kate:

100 percent right there. The

Nick:

crib is great, but don't leave it. No,

Kate:

exactly. Because we have to think about so So the first thing I would say is constantly, we constantly have to be reframing our thoughts about them. What is it that they want? Not what we want to capture, what we want them to do, what we like to do. We have to turn it around. And I find that, you know, from a tough love perspective, this is harder than usual for photographers. Photographers and videographers Really struggle with this because I would say more probably more than anybody else in the wedding industry. What you create is art You guys are artists. You are people who you take great pride in because your work ultimately ends up becoming an expression of your creativity, of your, imagination, your thought process, your, talent. And so I think that, and that, that. And I think that colors a lot in your photography business for everything from the sales, you know, feeling uncomfortable about wanting to sell things and feeling uncomfortable about marketing because it feels like you are cheapening your art, right? You are cheapening your talent and is cheapening even a word. I don't even know, but it is now, it is now, it's official now, but it's just basically you, it feels off. Yeah. Uncomfortable to do that. And especially when you feel so passionate about the work that you do, it can feel very difficult to want to turn that over, turn our brain over to saying, what is it that my couples want? Because it's like, no, this is what I do. This is what I'm good at. And people take it or leave it. We do hear that a lot from people in the wedding industry. But like I said, more often than not from photographers and videographers. But here's the thing. If we want. More couples to enjoy our art to have the benefit of having our talent for their wedding day to capture their one wedding day, then we have to think like this. We have to make it from their perspective so that we can book more clients that we can help more people because if we stay focused on us and what we like to do and what we're good at, We're only going to be speaking to ourselves. Everyone wants to know what's in it for them.

Nick:

Yeah. But

Kate:

more, more than anything, especially when you are trying to do this as a business, we have to think it from their perspective.

Nick:

Let me ask you, Kate, because, That is exactly right where they're at the so a few ways to get that across in their instagram this is your thing or whatever if people, you know, you know, like some of our students They don't know what they don't know what to do We got a whole list of like if you don't know what to vlog about try this this or this If you don't know what to do this try some of these things. So correct me wrong this is your thing. I don't know where you lead with it, but maybe they want to know that I about other people that work with you, right? And the stories of the day and, or like the stories you're talking about. But that can be

Kate:

hard.

Nick:

Yeah. That can be

Kate:

hard if you're just starting out. Where do

Nick:

they start off with answering those questions, you know? Do you have any good examples off the top of your head? Or I'm not trying to put you on a spike.

Kate:

Thanks Nick, you're doing my

Raymond Hatfield:

job. I appreciate it. That's

Kate:

what I was going to say. I'll just, I'll

Raymond Hatfield:

just, I'll be right back. Yeah,

Kate:

that's right. So with this, that can be a challenge because no, you are right about that, is that people, they do want to see the stories of people you've worked with, but it is hard when you are just starting out. You might not have a whole lot of clients. Well, this is where you might need to participate in some styled shoots. You might need to maybe work with a couple of friends. Everybody

Nick:

wants your help in a styled shoot. Oh, for goodness sakes. Yeah, seriously. Planners, the venues, like,

Kate:

If you don't have, yeah, if you don't, let's, honey, actually, that's a huge tip. If you need photographs, if you're just starting out and you have not done enough weddings, I'm telling you, go contact a wedding planner in your area and go contact a venue and say, Hey, I'm willing to, I would love to do an exchange and a styled shoot. I will photograph you, set aside one of your weekend days or an evening, whatever works out. And work together. I'll tell you wedding planners and venues will be falling all over themselves to get photographs from you And then you have the benefit of now you have things that you can share your

Nick:

photographer possibly Because i'm gonna tell you a secret you're scared to talk to the venue because I was too with our other business, but now that we're coaching venues, they're scared to talk to you They're like, oh, why would this guy? Why would or she why would she want to like do all that work for you? for nothing i'm gonna be like, oh, you know because they

Kate:

need photos too. They would love

Nick:

for you to be sunny and your brides in this way couples, you know, because people are just busy, they also would love someone to initiative

Raymond Hatfield:

like yes, please do. Yeah. Yeah, of course, of course I can say from personal experience, I found that that exact thing, has worked for me, for my business. Now, for me, it was a little different. It wasn't a styled shoot as much as it was, um, there was a couple here locally who their wedding photographer just skipped town after their wedding. So five years after their wedding, I was like, this is horrible. So I kind of wrangled everybody together, reached out to a planner to help kind of redo a shoot for them. But you're right. I mean, the planner loved the idea, loved the photos, the venue loved the idea, wanted the photos, I even got hair and makeup involved. And from that, just that one thing, I think I booked probably 12 or 13 weddings, just from those people directly involved. I don't know how many people saw it online, as you were saying, Nick, the blog post and whatnot. So you're right. that's a great avenue to go down. Now, my next question for you here, and we talked about it very briefly. Do you have time? This is my last question for you guys. Is that okay? We're all good to go. Yeah. So you had mentioned earlier, you know, one of the things that photographers can do to sabotage themselves is to just keep talking and talking about things that don't even matter gear specifically. And I had learned early on that that was one way that I was sabotaging. I thought that I was providing more value. I thought that I was answering their questions and helping them out as much as possible. And it turns out that I would just overload them with information. They didn't care and I was sabotaging myself. So what are some of the other ways that we as wedding professionals are sabotaging ourselves, from the sale?

Nick:

Yeah. So in, you know, with our students, we literally ask people, they, they record their calls that are zooms. Cause people are doing zooms a lot now. And we just kind of, with a very friendly heart used to be a specialty. We could, we help each other just change a little bit. And so many people. They want to over talk, they just want to pour into them, like what's going on, because they feel like if they really get it, then they're just going to say yes, but it's kind of counterintuitive, but it's about them, so if you are speaking more than they are, you probably need to flip that, by asking questions, what is it they want, we also find you sabotage by the confusion will kill the sale. Okay. Saying I've got five packages. I've got this, you know, we, can bring in this lighting and stuff like that. They may not need to know that they came into you already pre warned. They looked at your website, otherwise they wouldn't have got on. They kind of liked what they saw. Your job is to ask them, Hey, thank you for coming. What did you like on my website? And they might tell you well, I really like the photo of that couple. Oh, what'd you like about? And you kind of ask them some questions as if you're getting to know them because you are trying to make relationship And you don't need to like talk about all that. Oh, yeah, I love

Kate:

to do that That's one of my favorite things to do is I love to photograph couples like that because now what are you saying? I I I me me me, right? They'll

Nick:

say yep. Mm hmm. but like really you just need to ask them and they might love the engagement photos over there. Like would you like to do all those over there? Yeah, I really do. Well, I make that easy all we do is we have the package

Kate:

Yeah, X amount.

Nick:

I can do it this weekend, or would you like to do it next? And say that clearly because they're kind of telling you, or they'll say, well, I don't really want to do that. Well, what would you like to do? I do this and this, and you kind of just give them what they want. Ask them what they need, and then say a price very confidently. Sounds like what would work for you best. Is this one? We can do it as soon as next week or I can look at my schedule. I got a whole bunch more. I don't want to like. Oh, yeah. No, he's yeah. A whole bunch that but just talk less. Ask more come back with what they're saying and say confidently. Yeah, I can do that for you Oh, yeah, and then just close them people don't want to close either. They'll say okay Well, why don't I write you up a proposal and i'll send it to you and they're like, yeah, sure. It sounds good like They're already there. Just ask them to sign in. They most of them will do it and by default they'll say well I'm going to talk forever. Yeah, yeah. He's,

Kate:

he's really good at handling objections.

Raymond Hatfield:

The objections are a hard one. You know, I get that. And I think that that's what people are scared of most is that, especially when you get into photography, as you guys were saying, it's, this art form. Like, this is what it is that we are creating. So when we are trying to, when we get over that hurdle, when we get that confidence to go in front of somebody to say, Hey, would you like to work with me? Once they come up with an objection, it feels like an objection about ourselves. And so like, I completely get it. And I know that there is a big, you know, need for being able to handle those objections and kind of reframing it of like, it's not about you. It's about, you know, whatever struggles they're feeling with. Right. Yeah.

Nick:

They came to your appointment. Good point. They didn't have to they didn't have to call you they didn't have like people are busy if they're getting to you're pretty much Like I said, don't mess it up. Yeah So it's not about you. They're confused about something. Usually it's something That you don't know about. They're like, well, I really wanted you for my, later reception thing or to go over here and they don't know that you do that. Like, oh, that's no problem. I can do that. Or, you know, I needed a second shooter. Well, no problem. I've got someone that comes with me. That's just this, you know, they just, don't want to ask you the question. We even, I don't know. I don't like.

Kate:

Yeah, this is good. He actually who you

Nick:

are. This is what you get an objection right now because everybody wants to know that trying to do a whole thing on it. We're gathering them all and just giving everybody the basic words to say, still got to make it your own for your own vibe. But like, cause it's that simple, you know, it's simpler than we

Kate:

think it is. Let's put it that way. It's simpler than we think it is. We often, whether it's sales, whether it's marketing, we often overcomplicate things we can absolutely make these simpler, but we have to start with some very foundational basics. And that is, that's what we've been talking about today. It's like, you have to start with the basics, the foundation, and then build on from there, because that's going to help us to make sure that we are, it's learning to, you know, crawl before you can walk, walk before you can run, right. We have to get those basics in that foundation set and keep it simple to start, and that's going to allow you to grow to wherever you need it to be.

Raymond Hatfield:

Kate, Nick, I don't know how to end it any better than that. You guys wrapped this up perfectly. This is fantastic. Before I let you two go, can you feel free to let everybody know where they can find out more about you two and what it is that you do online?

Kate:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, everything that you might want to learn about marketing and sales for your wedding business, uh, is at bookmorebrides. com. You can always reach out to us anytime. Hello at bookmorebrides. com. Come find us on Instagram. Same thing. Bookmore Brides. We try to make it simple. See? Easy. But, definitely we would love to be able to connect with anybody here. Help you find, uh, The right path for where you need to go in your wedding business. Whether it's

Nick:

next. Yeah, what's next for

Kate:

you? Do you want to stay do you want this to stay as a side hobby? Great. We can help you with some ways to do that. But if you're looking to make this a full time gig, you know we certainly have different programs, different service offerings that would make that easier for you

Nick:

Yeah, if I can include if you from the conversation, we had all these great points. You know if you're saying what do I do next? You can reach out to us. We can help you if you're saying it. I don't know how to write that I just don't I know what it is, but I just can't get it out. She knows how to pull it out of you and all those have good different

Kate:

options. Yeah, absolutely