The Beginner Photography Podcast

485: Nori Jemil: Can You Capture Perfect Travel Photos?

• Raymond Hatfield

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In this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast, I chat with Nori Jemill, an inspiring travel photographer renowned for her transformative journey from hobbyist to professional. Nori unpacks the essence of storytelling through travel photography, emphasizing the significance of passion, persistence, and organic development. Listen as Nori shares info on actively researching locations, planning your shots, and embracing unexpected opportunities. 

The Big Ideas:

  • Passion Fuels Progress: Your enthusiasm for photography drives your growth and helps you overcome challenges. Let your passion guide your learning journey.
  • Research is Key: Understanding the location and its photographic potential ensures better-prepared shoots and opportunities to capture unique moments.
  • Value Feedback: Seeking constructive criticism from experienced photographers can exponentially improve your skills and deepen your creative vision.
  • Embrace Impromptu Moments: Sometimes the best pictures come from unplanned events. Stay open to spontaneous opportunities to capture authentic, compelling stories.

Photography Action Plan:

  • Research Your Next Shoot: Begin with Google searches and browse photo libraries for inspiration specific to your target location. Check travel articles, guidebooks, and use tools like the Photographer’s Ephemeris for optimal shooting times.
  • Prepare Your Gear: Ensure all equipment is in good working condition and pack essential items tailored to the type of photography you plan to take. Include backup batteries, memory cards, and weather-appropriate accessories to avoid any disruptions during your shoot.
  • Create a Shot List and Storyboard: Draft a list of must-have shots and sketch a rough storyboard to guide your photography session. Visualize the story you want to tell through your photos and plan your shots accordingly.
  • Engage with the Local Community: Spend time interacting with locals to gain unique insights and uncover stories that can add depth to your photography. Be curious and approachable; sometimes the best stories are hidden in casual conversations.
  • Critically Review Your Work: After shooting, review your photos and select the ones that best convey your intended narrative. Seek feedback from peers or mentors, and use their constructive criticism to refine your technique and vision.

Resources:

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Nori Jemil:

Find the thing that you love. Most people have got this one type of photography. So I like street photography, but it's not filling me with passion. So for me being on my own in low light by the ocean, it's kind of my on the top of a mountain and then follow that sort of and perfect it. So find out how to be a kind of really adept. portrait photographer. Learn about that style if that's what you love. And then move on to the next one. If you're trying to do everything, and especially on one trip, if you try to cover everything, you'll be chasing your tail and you'll never really, get probably anything that's really amazing, you'll get lots of quite nice things. So don't be kind of tempted to do everything.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield, and in today's Rewind interview, we are chatting with travel photographer, Nori Jemil, about the one thing that will have you taking vacation photos that will make all of your friends and family jealous. But first, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by CloudSpot. Impress your friends, family, and clients with a beautiful online gallery that is easy to view, share, and download on any device. Thanks. You can control image size, add a watermark, and set download limits. So grab your free forever account over at deliverphotos. com and only upgrade when you are ready. Gemmel is a travel photographer who has shot for many travel and destination publications around the world, including National Geographic. Her work is not only beautiful, it's also like a modern take on travel. You know, I remember growing up and going on road trips with the family and we stop at, you know, all the signs and all the main things along the road and, uh, all the things that, you know, the locals are absolutely sick of, but Norai takes a much more Intimate approach to travel that makes you feel like a local. And I mean, that's, that's awesome. Like she, she's been doing it so well that she wrote a book to help you take better travel photos too. And it is called the travel photographer's way practical steps to taking unforgettable travel photos. The reviews are amazing. And since it's the height of summer travel here in the Northern hemisphere, I will have a link to it in the show notes where you can get it on Amazon. So in today's conversation, you will learn how to embrace patience, even when you want to see and do all the things, and how that can significantly improve your travel photos, the importance of being flexible and open to changing plans to capture the best moments and how to master your research techniques to uncover unique photo ops and avoid generic postcard shots. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview. Norai, when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Nori Jemil:

Okay, so I guess for me, 2008 2009 was kind of a sort of pivotal time in my life. I was living in South America, and traveling a lot. And I've been taking photographs for a long time. But Kind of, sort of, everything sort of ramped up a little bit then, and I, someone in saying, oh, you know, you are really good, you should enter some competitions. And I was like, oh, you know, I was teaching English in a British school, in Santiago, in Chile. and I entered a few different competitions and I, I came second in two of them, I won one of them. And it was kind of like, oh, one was in Canada, one was in Australia, and one was in the uk, or two in the uk. And I was kind of like, oh, maybe, you know, and that's kind of where. I got a bit more confidence and carried on and it started to become a thing that was professional rather than just me, fooling around. So yeah, and it took a few years to kind of get there. But that was the sort of, the germ of everything starting.

Raymond Hatfield:

So how do you let me, let me just try to clarify here. So you Decided to get into photography and then we kind of jumped into you were, you started winning awards. So like, what was

Nori Jemil:

it? So I'd always had a camera from a child, you know, and I've always loved photography and painting and art, anything kind of visual I was doing, but I'm quite wordy. So I have an English degree and I, you know, I was always reading and, but I love to paint. I never, ever thought that photography would be anything in a career for me because my first job was in publishing, I was a copywriter, I became a teacher of English and drama, so it was all kind of academic and publishing, but I loved it. It was my kind of, letting off some steam. Um, and so I'd had a, I'd had a film SLR camera for a long time and was taken, I thought quite good photos, which, I used from a lot of people do, you know, put on your own wall or use for whatever calendars or just to look at, and so there was probably 10 years where I was becoming quite good at it, but it still wasn't something I wanted to earn money from. I was still, I was the head of English in a British school and I was, you know. I had a kind of busy job and I was doing some consultancy work as well, so it was a thing I did. And I meet a lot of photographers on trips who are dentists and solicitors, and they've got their thing, they've got their job, but they just love photography. So I was there for a while like that. Yeah, so it was a gradual thing and I didn't just start entering awards. That sounds kind of like, oh, I'm so good. I'm going to do this. But it was kind of, I was doing some photography for, the school I was working at every time I went on a trip with students in South America. they'd ask me, can you, you know, the people do, can you supply some pictures for the newsletter or for the, and so it came sort of slowly like that. And then there was an exhibition and I put some photos in and if I'm gonna say, Oh, yours are really good. They're better than the professional guy that I'm like, no, no. Um, so it was kind of like that. It was a Genesis. And then, and then I just entered in the same year, just a few, just randomly. they all came back with like short lists and. I won a load of equipment from one Canadian one, and yeah. And then I answered again the next year. I cut the same one in the UK called Wands are Lost. And I came second and then the next year I won and then they sent me on a commission. That was the real beginning. That was 2010.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. Okay. So before we, before we dive into that, where it turns professional, I'm always interested in those earliest days of photography because as long as I hate to say as long as photography has been around because that's not true, but for a long time There's been kind of two subsets of photographers those like my mom growing up who you know, the point and shoot was perfect That's all that she needed and today that's the iPhone photographers, right? Just a snapshot record. This was good But you mentioned that you had an SLR there that's gonna be at least in film gonna be full manual controls Yeah, what was it about? Photography, what was it about, SLR and having more control that you desired more so than just taking snapshots, or I guess, let me rephrase that. What is it about snapshots that wasn't good enough for you?

Nori Jemil:

Well, I guess then when I was doing it, they weren't, we didn't have, the iPhones, you know, the, um, Samsung's that we've got now, which are taking HDR pictures, which are compressing and exposing perfectly. So you would have overexposed skies, you know, you try to shoot a sunset and it wouldn't be the right color. And you think it didn't look like that. And it's, it was that kind of learning how to control what you want to die. I really started out doing landscape photography. So, for me, being able to sort of use a tripod and use filters and, block out some of the sky and have a low exposure, that kind of thing. You can't do that with a phone.

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure.

Nori Jemil:

Or a, or a, and I did have one of those cameras a long time ago.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nori Jemil:

But my dad also had a really nice, old Agfa, 35mm film camera when I was really small and I used to covet it. I don't know what it was made, but it was a brown leather case, which is weird because I got this, um. It's Fuji that I use. Oh,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah.

Nori Jemil:

And um, and you know, this retro sort of styling and I don't know if that's why I love this camera. I mean, it's good as well, but it reminds me of my dad's camera. So I think sometimes it's kind of childhood things, being trusted with the nice camera, getting to use it a few times. And those pictures that we took on his camera was so much better than my little first, I had a little kind of Helena or something, and then I got an Olympus compact and I had, you know, And I kept moving up, so yeah, it was control, it was sort of knowing that it wasn't quite doing what I wanted it to do, that I moved on to buying a, an SLR, and not really knowing what to do with it, but it was taking, even on auto, it was taking great pictures.

Raymond Hatfield:

Of course, yeah, there's always that, there's always that jump, it's so funny from like, snapshots to anything better is like a giant step forward, but then from that to really professional photos, it's a lot smaller of a jump, it's just more, it's technical, I think, and more detailed than that. So you said that you were having problems, or that it was, still you were shooting on auto. When you first started, learning to control your camera and all of the controls that it had, to be able to get the image that you saw in your head on film or in your camera, what were some of those earliest struggles for you from a technical standpoint?

Nori Jemil:

I mean, I guess for me, I, I think when you first start taking photographs, you, there's usually somebody around you who knows what they're doing or wants to tell you how to do it. And I find when I'm teaching photography as well in my book, which I know we're going to talk about later, but I think you have to learn things when you need to learn them. So for me, it's always about context. So if you're trying to do something and it's not working, you figure it out how to do it. Or you go on a course or someone teaches you. If you get given a load of technical information when you're not ready for it, or when it's just not you, because also you're being creative, aren't you? And you're in the moment and you're traveling, especially with landscapes. You don't want someone on your show to go, Put it on f11 and underexposed by third and try this and you're like, Oh, but you just ruined it. I was looking at this amazing landscape in front of me.

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure.

Nori Jemil:

So I didn't find anything particularly hard, but I didn't always, um, as one particular person I'm thinking of was always trying to tell me things because he'd studied photography and I wasn't ready to hear it. So I was probably not very welcoming of his help. And he still, he talked to me about it. And I said, do you remember when I tried to talk to you? And I was like, yeah, I don't want to know. Let me do it in my end. So I think, nothing was hard, but there is quite a lot and I think you need to learn it. When you're ready and in context and kind of experience it. So be in the field and say to someone, you know, this is awful. What's wrong with my picture? Why is, why is it so bad? And they'll say, it's overexposed or the sky is just too bright. It's pixel, you know, you've, you've got, no pixels in the sky and you're like, Oh, okay. And they'll say it's exposure and you go, Oh yeah, I need to go and work out what exposure triangle is. And you do, you learn it. And that's, that's how I teach when I do, I do sort of tours, mostly in South America now in Patagonia. And I get some people turning up with really good cameras, but they've never used them before.

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure. That's frustrating.

Nori Jemil:

Yeah. But you know what? It's amazing how quickly, because they're there. Yeah. And they're like, oh, I want to get a picture like this. And I go, what am I doing? And you go, so, teach them how to use the histogram and what they're looking for with light and dark and just what dynamic range is and that kind of thing. And then when they've got that, they start looking at, you know, should I shoot aperture or shutter or what's manual? And how do I get control? And I saw a woman in February in Chile go from, Zero knowing very, you know, she didn't know anything actually by the end of a week, honestly. Her, her, she was like that. I was like, wow. And she had a really good brand new Sony, so I was a little bit jealous. And I was like, oh, But she, she, and she kept saying, I'm really bad. I dunno what I'm doing. I'm like, well, you know, I think it's the desire to know, isn't it? And then having someone who can help you. Yes. Or somewhere to look. Yeah. And now you've got Google, so you don't really need a teacher you can just, no, that's not true. Well, you know.

Raymond Hatfield:

I think I think the hardest part though, especially for new photographers is that, say back 30 years ago, we're shooting on film, you got your ISO, well, actually, you have your film speed. So like, that's not going to change. You have your shutter speed, you have your aperture. And then maybe, you know, lenses, you learn about lenses. And there's really not much more to that until you get into printing and filters, possibly. But today, There's just so many buttons and settings and all these things on your camera. It can be really difficult. So if somebody brand new, you know, let's say, let's take this woman here with this brand new Sony camera. She was at zero. What would you tell her is the most important thing to focus on first?

Nori Jemil:

Well, I, you know, we sort of started with, Chats about composition and what makes a good photo, you know, I showed them some of my stuff and people that I admire and so just talking about the basics, and then seeing what they all have as equipment because there's a group of them and then obviously she had a really good camera. So talking to her, but I always really start with aperture priority because I think you can kind of just, you know, get started with just explaining light and then thinking about if you want things in focus and then also, points of view, you know, angles, are you going to get low on the ground? Are you going to kind of try and get some kind of different angle on something? And then just playing with, with composition. So she had a good eye. But she wasn't quite sure how to control the light. And so she started to sort of work in aperture priority for a while and then maybe underexposing a little bit. And then the next day we kind of looked at, at the histogram a little bit and talked about trying to get sort of motion and, slowing down the shutter and talking about what that meant and how that linked to aperture. And she just picked it up, you know, she was obviously, ready for it. And she'd been a photographer. She always had a camera, but she'd never really tried to control it. But she knew what she, she knew what looked good. And she knew what she wanted her photos to look like. And she'd researched where she was going. That's a big thing too. You know, if you have an idea of what you can do when you get somewhere, if you're going to Antarctica, you know what you're going to face, right? So she didn't want to miss the opportunity. So, Yeah, also I was on board and she didn't know there was a photographer on board because they hadn't told her when she booked her trip So she was quite excited.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah

Nori Jemil:

She was by my side the whole time

Raymond Hatfield:

So obviously having some sort of eye right developing that over a while like that is really important But what really grew her skills in this situation was having that dedicated time to actually work

Nori Jemil:

With her

Raymond Hatfield:

camera and capture those photos, right?

Nori Jemil:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay.

Nori Jemil:

And we had workshops and chats in the day and the evening. We kind of shared photographs the next day. So it was, it was dedicated. And I've done that myself. When I started out, I used to go on. I went on so many photography tours so I could, anything I could get onto. And you're always with other photographers. Either they, they're beginners and they love it. Or, they're more experienced than you, and you really learn a lot by what you call proximal learning, it's who you're standing next to. And there was one Canadian guy, Dan Bannister, who I learned so much from, he's such a nice guy as well. And I think I learned a lot from him, more than I did on courses that I've taken. Just because he'd say, you know, even, he used to say, slow. He'd hear my shutter and go, that's going to be blurred. And I'd be like, what? I do. I don't do it out loud to people because I'm not that kind of out there. I don't want to be that rude to somebody, but I do hear it. And I think, Oh, happy to watch. You know,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah, that's too funny. It's funny how, as time goes on and you, you, you learn more about these things, you can pick up on those, on those really small things that, that are very difficult when you first get started.

Nori Jemil:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Now, uh, I know that, today you do a lot of travel photography, you've written a book about it, which we're going to get into, but, uh, before we do get into that, uh, you mentioned, winning some awards earlier, doing some commissioned work, is that how you got into travel photography in the first place?

Nori Jemil:

Yeah, I think when I won the, yeah, when I won the first kind of the main award that I won, which is Wanderlust Magazine, which is quite a big magazine in the UK. It's like one of the leading travel magazines. Um, they have big exhibition every year of the winners of those competitions and they put the work up at something called Destinations, which is a big travel fair, happens every February in the UK. in London, I should say, in Manchester. And so going on commission for them, I then have my work in their magazine, and there were a few events around that. So that kind of gave me the confidence to pitch for work, so after that I started sort of coming up with ideas for things I wanted to photograph, and I, a few magazines, I got a few commissions quite soon on the back of that. and then I was at some, I did some work cause I used to live in Chile. I was doing some work with something called LATA, which is the Latin American travel association. And they kind of have a fundraising arm that works with charities in South America. And I. Started volunteering with them, doing some work for them. So I used to get involved in quite a lot of Latin American events. And I was at something, and I was talking to somebody who I didn't, I didn't know who she was, but we swapped cards. And she worked in the, design team at National Geographic Traveler magazine in London. And she passed my card on to the, art director. And he must have looked me up and then he emailed me and then I got some commissions with them. So then I started working with Nat Geo a lot and I still do. So that was kind of just by being in that, network and just keep on sort of like pitching stuff and talking to people and going to events. But I realized not everyone can do that. I live in London. it wasn't, it wasn't straight away. It took a few years for me to sort of build that network. Yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

I bet that email from Nat Geo might have been, must have been quite something to read.

Nori Jemil:

Yeah. Yeah. It was like, I didn't even like, sometimes that's why people say, how do you get into it? I get a lot of emails. When I do events for National Geographic Traveler and there's like masterclasses that we do, I get a lot of messages afterwards saying, um, Oh, how'd you get into travel photography? And it's strange. And last night I was having dinner with, company that I work for in Chile is called Expeditions. And I was with one of their, well, the guy that books me basically, who lives in Barcelona, but I've known him for quite a few years now, but he was in London doing some marketing and PR stuff. And so we went for dinner and I'm saying to him that, you know, people have said to me, how'd you get that gig? How do you, And it's because I was working in South America for a long time, and I speak Spanish, and I kind of, have a sort of, a sort of, um, I'm simpatico for Chile, I kind of have that in me, because I live there, and so they like me because of that, I didn't just say, oh, can you employ me, and it's, it was kind of, again, it was a process. So I always say to people, follow what you love, keep doing it, it will come to you, if you love something, and you've got a little bit of skill, and you just keep working at it. you will get the opportunity somehow. But if you're really pushy and you're banging on doors, I think you can alienate people. So I've never really been that person. However, I do know people like that and they're doing well. It's just not me. So I just kind of wait for it to come to me. I guess, you know, maybe it would have come sooner if I was a bit more forthcoming. I don't know what else is coming, but you know,

Raymond Hatfield:

but you're here today. So that's, uh, I'm

Nori Jemil:

here today.

Raymond Hatfield:

Exactly. so, well, let's go ahead and start there then let's, let's, why don't you first tell us about your book, um, The Travel Photographer's Way. This is a, this is a very exciting book. Tell me kind of what it's about and what goes into

Nori Jemil:

it. You know what I like is that your background is the color scheme of my cover. So yeah, we like that. We're sort of color paletting there. yeah, the idea of the book was kind of what we've been talking about is learning in a kind of progressive way. And so when I started out, I did buy quite a lot of photography books. Some of them were the big coffee table books, you know, just lush pictures. You know, I want to go there and take that picture. and some of them were technical books. And I found with the technical books, they're okay to dip into. You kind of look in and see and think, Oh yeah, you know, how do you do that? Oh, right. This is a good example. I didn't want to do that kind of book that was heavily loaded or top loaded with technical information. I wanted it to be a travel guide. So each chapter is a different continent. And each chapter is a different type of travel photography. And it's all the stuff that I have to do when I'm working. So, we love WowShots as travel photographers. And we love those opening double page spreads of a, a big Northern Lights landscape or something. Yes. But photo editors don't just want those, they might open the feature with that, but then they want a cup of coffee, or someone eating, or, a bar at night, and then people in the sunshine enjoying the beach, that kind of thing, so you have to shoot a range of stuff, so I thought, seven continents, seven types of travel photography, kind of moving from people and landscape to food and adventure, et cetera. And then each chapter gets progressively more difficult technically. So kind of starts with what we were talking about composition, shooting people with relationships, how you work with people. If you're traveling, it's very different to studio photography,

Raymond Hatfield:

you

Nori Jemil:

know, you're on the go and you might see somebody, how do you. You know, there's all that stuff about how you encounter people and how you get a good photograph on the move. and it kind of starts with using aperture priority and then it goes into like wildlife photography. So it's, it gets into shutter speed a bit more than manual photography. And then, you know, all the kind of stuff to do with composite photographs and exposure compensation and the more technical. So if you read it from cover to cover, you travel around the world and hopefully by the end of it, You're quite a competent photographer without really thinking about it. And each chapter has assignments. So there's a couple of things, and they're quite basic to start with, and the next one's a bit more difficult. And there's reflections, you know, what might have gone wrong and why. I wish, I mean, I know it sounds dumb, It sounds awful, but it's not really. I wish I'd read it when I was starting out. I think it would have been a really nice book because you can travel with it. It's small. it's not meant to be a big copy or a big reference book because you won't travel with it. So there's a bunch of photos in it. There's like 200 photos. But I also interview one, one photographer that I really admire in each chapter, like this guy, Harry, who is the most amazing wildlife photographer, and he really just focuses on wildlife. Wow,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah.

Nori Jemil:

Yeah, and he does big fine art kind of exhibitions, and I love his work. So, Each chapter, yeah, that's another one of his. Each chapter, yeah, each chapter has a different, yeah, it's his, isn't it? so I interviewed, ten photographers, and so each chapter has a little sort of section with them, and it builds on what I've been saying. I didn't want it just to be my voice, because it's like, what do I know? You know, I know what I know. Although, The book is also full of other people's voices. So it's full of quotations from photographers, philosophers, and I've been a teacher for a long time. So the way people learn is kind of key to my other career. So that is in there as well. So I even got Nietzsche in saying, you know, Friedrich Nietzsche, that we're not born genius. We kind of, incrementally become really skillful if it's what we want. And it's that journey to becoming a genius that makes, composers and virtuoso violinists, et cetera. And I like that. You say, how do you get what you've got? And you're like, well, time, time and passion. Yeah. Yeah. And opportunity, you know, not everyone can afford a big fat camera. I know that.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. That's, that's a big part of it. It's, it's interesting because, I'm kind of in this similar situation as you where it's like, what do I know? Like I'm, I want to talk to others. I want to hear what they know, you know, and I want to be able to, to learn from them because oftentimes I don't have the, either the time or the money because of family or just life work, whatever, to be able to travel to these places. But being able to hear others like yourself who have, and still being able to gain that insight is, is, is really important. now for the, for the rest of this, interview, I have a series of questions, but they kind of, depend, they're kind of, uh, specific to like being on a trip. So for the sake of this example, can you tell me about maybe your most recent trip? Where did you go?

Nori Jemil:

Most recent trip was Australia. Okay. although I have to say it was mostly to see family. I wasn't working in, I wasn't commissioned to go to Australia. It was me going back to see my parents for, after two years of not seeing them during the pandemic. But But in February, I was in Chile,

Raymond Hatfield:

um, and that

Nori Jemil:

was that, yeah. And that was teaching, photography on board an expedition ship.

Raymond Hatfield:

So let's, let's use that as an example. Um, going down to Chile, I know that, as you mentioned earlier, you know, you find out that you're going to go to one of these places, the prep work that you do is really important. You want to know kind of what you're getting into so that you have an idea of what, uh, you know, you can photograph and whatnot. So for you. When you found out that you were going to Chile, what is the first thing that you did in terms of planning for your trip and ensuring that you get photos that you're happy with?

Nori Jemil:

I guess because I've been, I've done this trip a few times. I know the South of Chile, so it's a bit easier for me in that I've got the right equipment for that. I've got the right cold weather gear. You know, I know what I need, but I guess after two years of being in a pandemic, I'm making sure my cameras will work. I have to say a couple of them were a bit kind of need in need of repair. but my basic kit was all good. So best thing I do is just go through my equipment, clean it all. Cool. get it clean professionally if it needs it, make sure it's working. But a lot of what I need for Chile is, you know, I've got a good carbon fiber tripod. I have all the sort of, waterproof bags for everything and, you know, having enough battery so that in the cold they don't, I don't run out Of, you know, of batteries and energy, et cetera, enough cards. So basically it's like going, it's just going through, I've got a checklist and I just go through everything and check I've got everything. yeah, and obviously I was just talking to somebody recently who's gone to South America and she was asking me, you know, what do I leave behind? it's a lot of stuff I want to take and you can't take everything. So if you know you're going somewhere with wildlife, so if this was Antarctica, this trip, I would have taken a different lens or two, but I knew that where I was going was mostly big, wide landscapes and maybe some more kind of mid range stuff. So I didn't take a really big telephoto because it's heavy and I didn't really need it. so it's that, it's sort of deciding. So if I'm going somewhere, I know it's easy. If it's somewhere I'm not, I haven't been before, but it's a certain job, I know there's maybe a lot of portraits I need to take if it's a food story. Then, yeah, I start thinking about what lenses, what camera bodies. I always take a backup. Do I take a compact as well? Do I need to kind of, you know, fly under the radar a little bit in the street and do some street photography? In which case I will take a compact or a range, a mirrorless type thing, rangefinder. but for Chile, it was on board, so it was big camera equipment, tripods, et cetera, just some sort of. GoPro type stuff for the wet, you know, all that. Of course.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. GoPros are fantastic for stuff like that. Yeah. So to find out if a place is, you know, more street or more, landscape, how do you do your research to discover those things?

Nori Jemil:

Yeah. So, I mean, a lot of photographers that I interview for the book as well, we all seem to have the same process, you know, start with a, with a Google search. Yeah. Sort of have a look where you're going, picture libraries, photo libraries, where, you know, like Getty, that kind of thing, and look at what other pro photographers have shot. if there's any kind of magazine features online, I always have a look at those and just to see what someone else has shot. Partly to do something a bit different as well, you don't want to be reproducing what someone else just did for a different magazine. I mean, in the old days, you used to arrive somewhere and I know a lot of photographers used to go to the local sort of tourist shop and look at all the postcards and sort of say, Oh, yeah, that's the that's the picture I want. And again, people will say, Yeah, but you don't want to get the same thing as someone else. But you want to know what's there. Right. So a range of like, I mean, now it's easy with online stuff. I'll also look at things like, you know, things you mustn't miss when you go somewhere. So if it's a city break type thing, I'll look at someone's travel article. It might say seven things to do in Copenhagen and sort of make sure I know my stuff. I do also read guidebooks. So like, I'm going to flag myself up here because I wrote a chapter of this, Rough Guide to Australia. So, books like this are really good for getting the highlights from a writer's point of view and that, sometimes photographers miss things because of that. Um, and then, you know, there's an app called the Photographer's Ephemeris, which tells you sunset and sunrise times, which is always obviously important for photographers. landscape photography and getting good light. I check the weather, um, I decide where to stay based on what I think I'm going to be photographing more so I can get somewhere at night or early in the morning without having to schlep, too far. but yeah, and then if I can, I always, this is my big thing, is Stay somewhere for longer if you can. So when you get a job, usually if it's a commission thing for a magazine, you might get a couple of days paid for by the tourist board or PR. They'll give you a couple of nights in a hotel and the flight. It's fine if you're doing a quick kind of, you know, interview research project, but if you're trying to get, I don't know, three, four locations at sunset, this and that, and interview this guy, you can't do it in, what, two days, especially if you're landing on one of them. So it's trying to make sure you've got the time to get the photographs you need. So once you've done the research, then I start trying to sort of work out how long I need to be somewhere. So it's kind of, it's, it's a lot of prep. It's a lot of negotiation and time.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Okay. So that. Perfectly segues into the next question, which is, I guess, how do you know exactly what photos you need to capture?

Nori Jemil:

I do storyboard. So I mean, if you're, illustrating someone else's article, which I have done before. Um, and they'll send me the text. So I'll go through and annotate it and I'll think, okay, well, that would be a good opener. I mean, you don't always get exactly the shots you think you're going to take,

Raymond Hatfield:

but

Nori Jemil:

I, I mean, I've got it in my book somewhere. I don't know where it is. but this is sort of chapter, 11 of the book is sort of what you do when you get back home. And it kind of references back to the storyboards because when, before you go, I always plan. So there's, um, I haven't looked at this for a while actually, I shouldn't admit that. I use planning sheets, shot lists, and Storyboards. I teach film now to students and so before they go and shoot film. Yes, I think they are. So, so like you have a kind of day sheet for where you're going to be and what you need to do, what time you need to be there. So kind of start with that. And sometimes I'll illustrate that, you know, when I'm on a train or a plane, I'll start imagining the shot. So lots of photographers talk about pre visualization. if you've done your research, if you've really thought about a place, you know, I know what I want to capture when I get there, and that could be the opening shot. And then I write a series of shots that I think I should get that could be that shot. So, there's going to be landscape, there's going to be enough negative space for text, and I hope that the photo editor likes it enough to use it. similarly trying to shoot the cover of magazines. So thinking about shooting a vertical with enough room for them to put National Geographic traveler at the top, that kind of thing. I have to say that's not something I do a lot. but like this, my book. that's actually a landscape photo, but the designer wanted to use it on the cover. So she cropped it. And obviously it does work quite nicely, but I didn't shoot it that way because there was a lot going on at the sides. So that's kind of something I say in the book as well is, you know, if you want to work as a, as a travel photographer, you do have to shoot vertical and landscape. You do have to have all the options that you can offer because photo editors will also always say, do you have any more shots of People on bikes in the street or, do you have that as a vertical and you're like, if you didn't shoot it and you say no, that kind of becomes a problem.

Raymond Hatfield:

I see.

Nori Jemil:

so yeah, so preparing in advance, writing a shot list, making sure you've got people, animals, food, landscape, early morning, late evening, something tranquil, something wow. And sort of just something that captures the place. So if the story is, I don't know, coffee in Manizales in Colombia, you're doing a coffee story, you've got to get the beans, right? You've got to get the field and the worker. You need someone drinking the coffee. You know, so you start mapping it like that. Like you would if you were writing a story. So, journalists do the same thing. Kind of think about, Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Now, that concept right there, I think you just kind of breezed over that, probably because you've been doing this for so long. But this idea of that our photos are just a way to tell a story, right? And that there has to be some sort of beginning, middle and end, right? The beans growing, the beans being ground up and whatever. And then the coffee finally being drank. But for. Let's, let's maybe think about, maybe somebody's going on vacation, right? They're maybe they're going down to Chile and they know that they're going to be there for a few days. How do we, how do we craft a story out of that? Do we have to manufacture something or is there a way to be more, I don't want to say, is there a way to be more organic with the photos that we capture, but are still able to, to capture a story?

Nori Jemil:

Yeah, I mean, there's so much spontaneity isn't there in travel, you don't know what's coming. And if you're, if you're always sticking to the plan, then you're going to miss so much. So that's why having extra time in a place is great. Getting lost in a place is really good. Just wandering, and talking to people because you'll find stuff out that you didn't know existed. So I always forget stories, but I'm on location, someone will tell me something and I'll go, huh. That would be a really good story for that magazine or I'll research that when I get home and I'll try and come back if I'm going to run out of time. I'll try and come back and shoot that later. so yeah, I think if you've got an idea of what you'd like to photograph, but then you sort of are also agile, so you need to react. Yeah, be on your toes. Miss a few dinners. You know, you can't be having dinner with the folks every time the sun's setting. You need to be out looking, you know, is it better over this way? Shall I, do I need to get to the top? You know, you asked me about research. Always find out where the, if you're in a city, where the, the high buildings are, the rooftops with the views of the city, that kind of thing. And choose to have your dinner and your drinks in one of those in that, you know, during, I always do that, you know, cause then you kind of, that's where you end up getting something really interesting and talk to people because you get the portraits. You're never going to get a good portrait unless you've set up an interview in advance and they know you're coming. If you just stop for 10 seconds, they kind of take your photo. People are kind of like, uh. But if you're around for a bit and you talk to them, they relax with you, and then you take the photograph. You tend to get a nicer portrait. So yeah, you know, yeah, react to what's there when you get there. And be, yeah, be agile and sort of think what are the possibilities, but then think, Oh, could I go down this avenue with it? I think there's a little bit of luck involved in getting a good story sometimes. Some people, I think the more you do it, the more you create that luck because you know what, how to sort of like create the alchemy for it to happen.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Nori Jemil:

So you need to be the good person in the right place with the right equipment, if it does come about. And then look at your, it's like when you pivot, when you play netball, I used to play netball at school, you're on one toe, you know, pivoting. Yeah. And you're going around sort of looking and then you go, okay, I'm going to. And sometimes you have to wait for it and other people kind of go, we're going to do this. You go, okay, see you tomorrow. I'm not coming. I'm going to hang here for a bit.

Raymond Hatfield:

But

Nori Jemil:

that is quite hard. It is quite a hard thing to do. And I think, you're trying to do it as a beginner, I would say, just go with your passion. If something, if you find something really aesthetically amazing, like, you know, you found a hill and you know, the sun's going to set over there. And you just make sure you get there in time to set up for it and just get that wow picture. Then the next day, maybe you shoot the breakfast in the hotel and you start thinking about what is it about this place that's kind of different from where I'm, you know, what I usually experience. I don't know. It's difficult to sort of know what's coming. Right, right. But if you research, if you look at other people's photos, and then if you stay agile, I think that gives you a greater possibility. And when you're first beginning, I think, shoot locally, don't go to the ends of the earth and have three days and think you're going to get a really good story, you're probably not. But if you go just outside of where you are, or you've got a long time in one place, you're going to find something. And if you can go back later, that's why being local is quite good. So if you're in the States and you've got, you know, the next town, you start researching, things are happening, if you know that there's. An event coming up or an anniversary, you know, there's going to be something really fun happening. So like people like me always think, you know, we'll go to New Orleans and Mardi Gras. If people live near there, you know, they've got it and they can sell it to publications in other countries that would find that exciting. It's not all, you don't always have to travel to be a travel photographer. And that's happened during the pandemic too. The magazines here are going to Australian photographers and they're going to Americans because nobody could go anywhere, so, which is a pain for me, but, you know, it's been

Raymond Hatfield:

a Yeah. No, I get that. That, that is, that's a really cool thought that we can be travel photographers. To other people, even though this is where we live. That's one of the things that I struggle with, which is kind of what we are talking about here, coming up with that plan, you know, knowing what it is that we want to shoot, having an idea, coming up with that plan, but then also being, being open enough, being free enough to allow for things to kind of develop organically. And then, and then follow that. Do you have, this is probably the worst question I've ever asked. Do you have some sort of, decision tree on which photo. Should be more planned versus which photos should be more organic?

Nori Jemil:

No, I think that's a good question I mean I think if you have your map of what you think you're going to photograph and how it would work and there's a variety of Vertical and horizontal shots close ups, you know long shots, etc Like you would make a film, you know, you're gonna zoom in and zoom out etc and tell a story And you have that as a column on your shortlist on your plan. And then you have the next column, which is things that might relate to that. So when you start getting inspired, if you were to add to your shortlist and go, well, actually, if I go this way with this story, this is more about this, the mate, you know, the farm to plate story or the coffee bean to the coffee cup, but maybe you talk to a guy and he's got a really amazing backstory. Like I met a guy in the Faroe islands who was just a really nice older man. outside a church. And he told me that he'd written a book, which, you know, sounded interesting. And then I found out that he'd written the only, or the first, Faroese to Faroese Dictionary. And he stopped the language being lost because Danish and English were sort of, you know, subsuming.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow.

Nori Jemil:

And he, and then I went back and I interviewed him for BBC travel and I, I filmed him and I filmed his family and, and, you know, I found out about Faroese culture and the importance of language. So that was a chance meeting when I was doing a different job. So sometimes you have to go back, which is why if it's not too far from where you live, it's easier. Yeah. you know, and sometimes you have to wait a whole year to go back somewhere because it's a festival. But I do think that I have a notebook and you know, I have a lot of ideas now. I think the more you do it, the more you kind of start seeing the angles. although sometimes you have a really great story and someone else has already thought of it or they've been commissioned to do it and you pitch it to your magazine and they're like, Oh, we've got someone going out. So, you know, all the things that, you know, are coming next year or the festivals that repeat, European capital of culture, those kinds of things. They make good travel pages in the newspapers. people kind of start to think, Oh yeah, I could do that. And so you've got to be quick.

Raymond Hatfield:

I see. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So

Nori Jemil:

that's why being somewhere and being inspired is great because no one else is there when you're there.

Raymond Hatfield:

And if

Nori Jemil:

someone tells you something and you're listening, you've got first dibs on that as a, as a story. And the other thing I'd say is that the more you do it, the more you learn how to curate a story and it's what you send. To the photo editor that is going to get you commissioned if you're working on spec as a beginner. So I tend to lay it out like a photo story. If I don't know the editor and I'll say, look, I've just done this. I've got this really good idea. I've just been to Chile. I've got this idea for this and blah, blah, blah. Here's some sample photos, but I'll make it look like they're magazines. So I'll lay it out. DPS. Vertical with some text, a few little, montage y thing. And that gives them an idea of what I've got, but it also makes them think, Oh yeah, I can see that in our magazine. So that's always, I think that's always worth doing if you've got the time.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. That's another, that's another fantastic idea right there that I think anybody can, can do even with their own photos, just even if they're not commissioned or anything, just be able to. Think to yourself, how can I rearrange these photos to be able to tell some sort of cohesive story, and get more out of them, more out of, because I think oftentimes as, as photographers were taught, like try to tell the whole story in just one photo. And while that's great advice for certain things, some stories require more than just, just one photo. I think each photo does tell a story, but maybe it's, it's. It's a, it's a smaller version of the bigger story, if that makes sense. Yeah. That, I don't know where I was going with that, but, uh, thinking about, photos and thinking about traveling, I know that, just because a photo is, technically a travel photo doesn't inherently make that photo good, right, just because it's photographed somewhere else. what elements do you look for, to know that the photograph that you're going to be able to take is going to stand on its own.

Nori Jemil:

I guess the things that I always think about if they're going to stand alone, they're usually the ones that would open the story or the ones you might enter for a competition or a professional award. So like I just entered something which is only for professional photographers in this country. Um, and you don't pick all your work. You just pick the things that you think stand on their own. As good photographs and so sometimes the ones that photo editors choose to be part of the story and not your favorites, but you can see where they fit the like a little, you know, a little sort of link in the chain. So the ones that for me that, really stand alone, like you say, they can tell a story by themselves. There's enough going on. I guess it captures the place. If it could be a photo that was taken anywhere in the world, then why would it be part of the story on Turkey or, you know, France or something? It has to have some kind of element of the place or the culture of the story of the place that you're telling. So it's difficult. I mean, I see so many different types of photography and I can see why all of it is interesting, but I guess it has to capture your attention and it has to have something in it that draws you in. It's not just. obvious on first sight. and maybe it's the play of, of light and shade or the, you know, the, the sort of the dynamic of the, of the color palette or the gaze of the person, if it's a, if it's a portrait, that kind of thing. And something that's a little bit different to what you've seen before. There's a lot of replication in travel photography. I think once somebody wins an award, you see a lot of people the next year doing the same kind of And I can see because it's, it's flattering. Isn't it? Yeah, and you're kind of learning your craft as well if you're an amateur or an enthusiast you're kind of thinking oh I want to take a picture like that and so you you know you enter it so there's a little bit of originality a little bit of of just I don't know perfect lighting or not necessarily technical perfection but you kind of you're looking for that but sometimes it doesn't you I see things that are not technically perfect, but they work. but I know there's a big thing, people like to sort of get your photo now on the phone and enlarge it and go, Oh, is it sharp enough? And

Raymond Hatfield:

it's,

Nori Jemil:

you never had that with film photography. Um, and in a way, I think something's been lost because people are so caught up with making sure that, and then they lose the sense of what it is they're photographing, I think sometimes. And, It doesn't really feel, it doesn't kind of feed the soul. It's just technically a nice photo, but a little bit average in the power it has on the viewer. I don't know. So it's hard, isn't it? It's like all art. How do, how do you measure if it's good?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. It's in the

Nori Jemil:

beholder, isn't it?

Raymond Hatfield:

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That, that being said, Then let me, let me ask you, because you, you have the eyes of the beholder in this case, when you go on Instagram or Facebook or whatever, and you see maybe a friend or family member post photos from maybe a recent trip of theirs, what are those elements that those photos are missing that a professional photographer would have paid more attention to and captured?

Nori Jemil:

It's all, I think it's always about the light. Um, When I see kind of nice family pictures, although actually people using their mobile phones now, they're getting technically really nice photographs. But if you're talking about somebody kind of with a, a kind of not on mobile phone, but maybe they're trying to take a picture, but they're snapping. Usually it's a composition of the lighting. So they haven't really sort of framed it as well as you might've done if you really thought about it. It's taken quickly, which may be makes it a little bit blurry. Right. They haven't used a tripod, you know, landscape photos, you have to use some kind of neutral density filter if you're going to try and do something interesting with maybe moving water. So something like, I keep showing this because it's in front of me, but you know, if you want to blur the water, you can't just photograph that on a slow shutter without overexposing the sky. And so that's kind of what a beginner photographer won't necessarily know how to do or have the equipment to do. so yeah, it's those three things I think.

Raymond Hatfield:

And having some sort of, like, it sounds like what you're saying is having some sort of intention for how the photo is going to turn out, right? Yeah. The technical aspects of it, the light, the composition. Okay.

Nori Jemil:

I guess if you're a professional, you've thought about that, haven't you? And if you take it and you check it and it's not quite right, you'll take another one.

Raymond Hatfield:

Whereas

Nori Jemil:

when you're on the hoof and you're just having fun, you don't really bother. You're just snapping. And maybe then you go back and look and go, Oh, it's out of focus. Oh, we're too late now. We've moved on.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Yeah. You know, and when, uh, when you're on a trip, when you are traveling, sometimes that happens because you're just wrapped up in, you know, whatever's going.

Nori Jemil:

And experience. Get the amazing photo. I would say it was always a balance between, traveling and being, you know, having a human experience. Although obviously if you're being paid to work and you don't get the shot, then it's different, the human experience will be back when you get home.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Yeah. You always want to think about that being a human experience, whether it's going to be good or bad. Yeah, I get that. Nora, I think. You know, we're coming to the end of our time here, uh, I think it's just impossible to cover everything that is related to travel photography in one, one hour long podcast. Um, so I know that listeners will be able to check out your book, but before, you know, we, we get into that and let them know where they can find that, is there anything maybe that I didn't ask you today that you think is really important for new photographers to understand about travel photography and travel? Taking photos that really mean something.

Nori Jemil:

Yeah. I mean, I think find a story that means something to you. So a place that, culturally is your background or an activity. You know, if you're into horses and you go to rodeos and stuff, if you know about animals and you hang around them and they're, you know, they're comfortable with you, find the thing that you love. Most people have got this one type of photography. So you know, people in my book, there's a, there's a, a photographer called Polly, who's a street photographer, and she does so much stuff in London. I like street photography, but it's not filling me with passion. So for me, being on my own in low light by the ocean, it's kind of my, or on the top of a mountain. Not in any danger, obviously, but somewhere really sort of dramatic or really beautiful. And then follow that, sort of, and perfect it. So find out how to be a kind of really, adept portrait photographer. Learn about that style, if that's what you love, people and taking portraits. And then move on to the next one. If you're trying to do everything, especially on one trip, if you try to cover everything, you'll be chasing your tail and you'll never really. get probably anything that's really amazing. You'll get lots of quite nice things. So don't be kind of tempted to do everything. And in your shot list, maybe you're going to enter a portrait photography competition. And you know, some guys that I don't know, mending fishing nets down on the coast, and they know you hang around with them and follow them and keep going back. That's why I would say that's how you start and you can enter some kind of portfolio and people will sort of take notice You don't have to be good at everything to start with just take it one genre at a time

Raymond Hatfield:

You don't have to be perfect at everything to start with that is that's gonna be a memorable quote from this one for sure It is yeah It was good. There's many of them that I've written down but that one is fantastic I know that, uh, it can be difficult for, for new photographers who, you know, they see the camera as a way to capture all of these different things, and it can, but it's great to, hear from you say, you know, if you really follow what you love and you do that, you're, you're going to get the best results because you're going to be interested in that. So, thank you so much for sharing that. I know that again, a lot of photographers are going to want to know more about you and more about travel photography. So can you share with them where they can learn more about you and obviously your book as well? so much.

Nori Jemil:

Yes, so, um, the book is published by Brat Guides, and so, on their website, so, Brat. it can be purchased from there, but also it's on Amazon. If you google me, I'm noraigemiltravel on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook, and my website is also in just in my name as well. So you can find me in all those iterations, and you can contact me as well if you've got questions. I'm doing quite a few talks in the UK at the moment, I haven't made it over to the States, but, that'll be the next thing, I hope, um, and yeah, so message me if you've got questions about it, but hopefully, I think for beginning photographers, this book is kind of ideal, that's how I wrote it, with those kind of really, passionate, early photographers in mind, and a few of my friends have told me that I'll see you Their children love it. So it's kind of, I've been a teacher for a long time and sort of, it really sort of works with teenagers as well that are kind of just coming into, I want to do something with my camera and it's hopefully written quite, kind of, it's quite an immersive read. I think it isn't technical and it's, there's lots of poetry in it. So, hopefully if you have a look at that, everything I've said is kind of in there, it's distilled, it's sort of 10 years of working and, you know, it's Probably over 20 years of doing it, um, and all the things people have said to me over the years, it's kind of fed into. So there's kind of a lot there. Somebody read it and said to me, oh, it's got a lot of content. And I was like, yeah, that was the, that was the intention.

Raymond Hatfield:

Uh, that is too funny. As if, uh, as if you were just going to write a book with, uh, with just, With

Nori Jemil:

just a few, just a few photos and

Raymond Hatfield:

some big

words. Exactly.