The Beginner Photography Podcast

Avoid the Overwhelm in Photography by Creating Systems with Annemie Tonken

• Raymond Hatfield

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#470 In today's episode of the podcast, I chat with family photographer and host of the This Cant Be That Hard podcast, Annemie Tonken about developing essential systems in your photography business to ensure efficiency, client satisfaction, and growth. Learn how strategic planning can transform your operational approach for the better.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Embrace Systemization: Treat your photography business like a well-oiled machine. You'll save time and avoid stress.
  • Audit Your Processes: Regularly checking your current processes teaches you where improvements can be made for smoother operations.
  • Focus on Fulfillment: Perfect your fulfillment system first; this ensures your client’s last interaction with you is memorable and professional.
  • Use Tools Wisely: Leveraging tools like CRMs can drastically improve your workflow and client management.


PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  • Audit Your Current Workflow: Review each step in your current process from handling initial client inquiries to final delivery of photos. Identify any bottlenecks or repetitive tasks that slow you down. Document your findings in a simple spreadsheet or flowchart. This will give you a clear visual representation of where you can begin implementing improvements.
  • Set Up Basic Systems for Marketing, Sales, and Fulfillment: Implement a CRM tool to manage client communications and keep track of sales leads. This step is crucial for maintaining organized client interactions. Create a checklist for each project phase. This ensures that nothing is missed and each client receives consistent, high-quality service.
  • Automate Repetitive Tasks: Identify tasks that are repetitive and time-consuming, such as appointment scheduling, email responses, or social media posts. Find tools that can help automate these processes. Start small, perhaps with automating appointment confirmations or thank-you emails, and gradually expand as you become comfortable with the technology.
  • Focus on Client Experience: Map out your ideal client journey from first contact to post-delivery follow-up. Think about how you want your clients to feel at each stage. Solicit feedback from recent clients to understand what they loved about working with you and areas where you might improve the experience.
  • Educate Yourself Continuously: Enroll in online courses or workshops that focus not only on photography techniques but also on business practices specific to photography. Seek out resources that offer practical advice on systematizing your business, such as free video lessons or worksheets that help you develop efficient workflows.


Resources:

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Annemie Tonken:

One of the things that I am very vocal about is that there is no reason to run a photography business unless you are setting yourself up to love the work that you do, because this is never going to be, or almost never going to be like, oh, I make seven figures and I drive a Lamborghini. that's not why we get into this. and that's not to say that you can't make a perfectly great salary, but We do this in large part because we want to do the thing that we love and earn a living doing it. So stick with that thing that you love piece. Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Handfield. And today we are chatting with family and photographer Annemie Tonken. About how simple systems will transform the way you approach photography. But first the beginning photography podcast is brought to you by cloud spot. Simplify your business with studio management, you can organize clients, send professional contracts, automate invoice, payments, and more. Keeping track of everything. Just got a lot easier with cloud spot studio. You can grab your free forever account over at DeliverPhoto.com and only upgrade when your business is ready. Now Annemie is the host of the, this can't be that hard podcast, which helps photographers make business easy. And she's also been on the podcast before talking about her unique pricing strategy back in episode 307. And that was a huge listener favorite. So if that's something that you're struggling with, check it out. But in today's interview, she's back sharing all about systems. So here she's going to share three things. One how to embrace systemization. So to treat your photography, hobby, or business, like a well oiled machine, she's also going to share some of her favorite systems that will help you to stay on top of all of the things. Next, we're going to talk about auditing your processes so regularly checking in on your current processes. Uh, to figure out where improvements can be made and, ensure even smoother operations going forward. And lastly how to use tools wisely. So leveraging tools like CRMs or image editors and how they can dramatically improve your workflow and client management, which is obviously satisfying. Both to you and to your client as well. So there's a lot in this one. You're really going to love it with that. Let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Annemie Tonken.

Raymond Hatfield:

Annemie last time you were on we talked a lot about pricing, right? And pricing is obviously a very big thing for new photographers. it can be difficult at times. But before we get on into our conversation today, Can you tell us kind of how you got started in photography in the first place so that we can figure out where we are today? Okay.

Annemie Tonken:

Sure, yeah, no, I actually went back and re listened to our last episode just because I always find it's helpful to like reorient myself so I'm not telling the same stories over and over again. And it has been, I mentioned my kids at the time and it's been two years, so it's great to be back on the show. Thank you so much. and yeah, my name is Annamie Tonken. I live in central North Carolina. I'm in the Chapel Hill, Durham area, and I have been a family photographer here since 2010. I got into photography like a lot of family photographers do. It was sort of, I was photographing. My own kids when they were very little, they are not little anymore. My 16 year old that I mentioned on our last show is now a bonafide adult. Um, and yeah, so I was, photographing them and kind of obsessed with the process and the learning how to edit and all those different things, and then. Other people started asking me to photograph their kids. And at the same time, I wasn't really loving my career trajectory before. And so, you know, dot, dot, dot, here we are. And it's been almost 15 years, that I've been officially in business and I have been doing a lot of education on the business side of things for the last four years. that time snuck up on me too. so yeah, that's kind of my story in a nutshell.

Raymond Hatfield:

It's so funny. when people send me an email about like, Hey, I just listened to the first episode of the podcast or whatever. And in that first episode of the podcast, my son, Is like a toddler and it's just like the babiest voice you've ever heard in your life and interrupting all the time. And now he's 11, like he's

Annemie Tonken:

Yeah. Oh, wow.

Raymond Hatfield:

about. So, I totally understand. Totally understand. so being focused to kind of more in the, the business world there. I know that a lot of photographers are kind of in that transitional phase, because as you mentioned, you get into photography, somebody asks you for some photos and you're like, yeah, I guess I'll do this. And then like over time. It grows into, an official business, but it's that over time that people seem to get the most stuck. Right. So for you, can you briefly explain like, what was the process between like, when did you first know Oh, I could actually turn this into a business to when you actually, maybe took a full time or actually felt like a bona fide business

Annemie Tonken:

Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that a funny thing? It's like you, you are, you typically are a bona fide business owner long before you feel like,

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Annemie Tonken:

yeah, I mean, and of course, the longer I've been in this, and especially now as an educator, I talk to photographers all the time and almost universally, we get into this sideways, right? Like with, it's almost an accident that we end up running a business because really all we ever wanted to do was monetize the thing that we love doing, and we just kind of say, Oh, well, it doesn't, I mean, my podcast and my education platform is called, this can't be that hard because literally when I was starting out, that was my, I was like, Oh yeah, you know, I'm good at taking photos. I'll charge some money and this can't be that hard. And then, ha ha ha jokes on me. It's a little more complicated than that. yeah, I mean, it was, it was one of those things I was working as a nurse and I I was in a master's program. And, very much enjoying taking photo photos of my kids. My older son was like two at the time. I was pregnant with my younger son. but my master's program was kind of a nightmare. I like couldn't stand it. And I, I had nursing was actually a second degree for me. So I was like, what is happening? I'm 30 years old. I don't, you know, like I can't change careers again. I'm too old for that, which makes me laugh now. But I really just wasn't feeling any satisfaction there or happiness there. and it was in a conversation with someone where I was talking about that. I don't even know what I would do if I were toe. Stop doing what I'm doing. Like, I don't really have an idea. And they said, well, you're, you're great at taking photos. And I almost laughed, or I probably did laugh. It was like, yeah, but that's not a career. Thanks so much for the pro tip there. but that, as soon as that little seed was planted, it took major root. And very quickly, I was, Taking business classes and taking photography classes because I figured if I was going to do it professionally, I needed to make sure that I knew what I was doing, and sort of exploring that as a mental exercise. I took some time like I took a semester's leave, supposedly from my, master's program and never went back. And, uh, yeah, it, was sort of the beginning. I kept my nursing job and nursing is such a great. sort of place to start another career from because you do, I mean, I was working three 12s a week. Um, if I was working night shift, oftentimes I was a labor and delivery nurse and we would, you know, it's like it was either slammed or it's pretty quiet. And sometimes I'd be like babysitting my sleeping patients and, working away on the, you know, on the computer, on my business. I did that for about two years. I kind of moved from full time to part time, to per diem, which anybody in the healthcare field knows what that is. It was just a couple of days a month. and then I finally sort of made that leap once I got to a place where I, my inquiries were consistent. My pricing was such that it was going to, if I was working full time, replace my salary. It's always a leap of faith. I felt really lucky to be able to kind of stage myself out of my quote unquote real job and do that kind of safely because I didn't have an option. It wasn't the my income was very much like part of the family income. I was not able. I was going to say allowed, but it wasn't even allowed thing. It was just a matter of like, if I wasn't making my salary, we weren't going to be able to, pay our mortgage and our bills and all that sort of thing. Um,

Raymond Hatfield:

Could you tell me how approximately how long was that transition from when you thought I'm going to do this to when you actually, left the hospital?

Annemie Tonken:

Yeah, it was just under two years between when I formed my business as an official, you know, like went and registered my paperwork to when I worked my last shift.

Raymond Hatfield:

That is that is impressive. I would say that's probably I would say that that's probably quicker than most people who are working a full time job transitioning into photography are able to do that. What do you think are some of the reasons why you were able to do it relatively quickly?

Annemie Tonken:

Well, part of it was that, um, fact that I was sort of able to, you know, Ween myself off and had a fair amount of time. I mean, I laugh. I had two little kids at home. It wasn't and I was working 36 hours a week. It wasn't like I was just sitting around working on my business all the time. Yeah, eating bonbons. but it was definitely I anyone who knows me or I get I'm like a terrier of some sort. Like I get my mindset on something and I typically go after it until I've got it. and so, yeah, I mean, it was a ton of work. The beautiful thing, and we talked about this a little bit, again, I, it's fresh in my memory because I just re listened to our conversation. But the thing that is so lovely about the beginning phase of your business is that you're just so excited. Like every Even kind of the tedium or at least that was me even the tedium even the editing whatever it was like I Was just I loved it so much. I would nerd out on like, oh my gosh I can't believe look at the before and after of this photo like it's crazy or you know I went out and I figured out how to Do this particular technique with my camera that I have been trying and I nailed it this time like that excitement really can carry you through and with the Like late nights and all that sort of stuff It still felt like play and the idea that that could be my career was such, like it lit such a fire under me. So I, as soon as like I, that was my goal. I was just after it until I got there.

Raymond Hatfield:

So what were like? Where was your focus though? Right? Because obviously you have to get to a point to where inquiries are more consistent, where more money is coming in. You're raising your prices. So where was your focus outside of the technical side of photography to to be able to start and grow the business?

Annemie Tonken:

Yeah, and I mean, I've said this a million times. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. I very much took to heart some advice that I got early on, which was that if I wanted to make a real go at it, I needed to focus at least as much on the business side as I did on the photography side. The thing was, by the time that I decided that photography was something that I was going to pursue, I was already People were already willing to pay me to do it. you know, obviously my prices adjusted once I decided that this was going to be something that was going to like replace my career. But, but it was, like, I had some photography knowledge. I gained more pretty quickly. And, and so I focused a ton on the business side of things and what has been fun over time is realizing that that is, I love that as much as photography. I find it to be just as much of a creative outlet as photography. So yeah. And so now the reason that as an educator, that's what I focus on is that my photography skills are, Good. Great. Like, I think I'm a good photographer. but I do not by any means think that the reason I've been in business for 15 years and have been successful and have made, a full time living and all those kinds of things consistently for a decade and a half, is not because my photos are knock you off your feet, award winning, blah, blah, however you want to call it. They're great. My clients love them. I'm consistent. I can show up and if it's a Rainy terrible day or somebody decided to wear neon orange like I can still get my job done. It's a That was not a that was not a cut on you

Raymond Hatfield:

see. Yeah, this is my favorite shirt, by the way, on me. If we ever do a shoot, I'll bring in the

Annemie Tonken:

I well and I am prepared for that Don't you worry. anyway, and so, you know, I, I fully do think that the reason that I've done as well as I have has been good business practices, that I have sort of stuck to. And so, I try to share that with as many artists as possible because I see a lot of people out there who fail or suffer, not because they don't have talent and skill and all the things. It's just that they need some help in the business department.

Raymond Hatfield:

So, being an educator, obviously you kind of get like this, uh, this window into, the world of other photographers, right? And you get to see the things that they're struggling with. Yeah. From where you are having been a full time photographer for so long and seeing new photographers getting into business, where do you think is the disconnect and where they need the most help?

Annemie Tonken:

Well, that actually kind of brings me to what I'm excited to talk about today. and that really is just systematizing your business. there are so many little pieces that But, yeah, it's a business. And it really is. The crux of the, the jokes on me about like, Oh, this can't be that hard. You don't realize until you get into it. Like, oh, I have to do that. Oh, now I have to do. Oh, now I see that I also have to do a, b and c. I mean, it's, the list is almost endless. And most of us are in this business alone. Like we certainly start out that way. We're trying to, make the photos, edit the photos, deliver the photos. Sell the photos, market the photos, like all the different pieces. We're trying to teach ourselves how to do that, where we're our own web developers. We do our own SEO. I mean, there's so many pieces and the only way that that is sustainable for any real period of time is to create good systems in your business. And I can't literally don't think that there is a time that is too early to start. It took me years. and I credit the fact that I had that terrier energy, big terrier energy, where it was just like dogged determination. I was kind of white knuckling my way through. But in retrospect, I could have saved myself a ton of time, a ton of stress, and honestly saved myself a ton of mistakes if I had had better systems from the get go. So now that's something that I preach far and wide, as often as anybody will let me talk.

Raymond Hatfield:

So when it comes to systems, can you give us an idea of like, what does that even mean? Because if I think about systems as a photographer, um, like we get an email, we respond to the email, we show up and shoot and then we send them the phone. Like what is that what it comes down to? Or is there more to it than that?

Annemie Tonken:

Yeah, kind of. Actually let me pause there. I want to tell this silly little Story analogy that I made up a couple of years ago because I was getting a ton of questions about systems And I was trying to come up with a way to like explain what I meant So, you know the story about the three little pigs like the house made of straw and house made of twigs and house made of bricks, so Let's say that the three little pigs have you know gotten rid of the big bad wolf Everything is fine. They're living peacefully. And then this drought hits in their village or whatever, wherever they live. Um, and there's just no rain and there's no water. And the three brothers are just struggling. they're really, really thirsty. Um,

Raymond Hatfield:

so they gotta

Annemie Tonken:

exactly. I mean, it's the, now they're dust pigs, which is just pitiful, really. So one day, finally, The, you know, clouds roll in and it starts to rain. And as soon as it starts to rain, the first little pig in the house made of straw runs out the door, throws his head back, opens his mouth, and starts trying to catch raindrops in his mouth, desperately sort of running around doing this. The second little pig is also very excited about the rain, runs out of his house, but As with before, the second little pig is a little more prepared than his brother. and so he comes out with one of those like five gallon buckets from Home Depot or whatever, that he has had sitting by the door waiting for exactly this occasion. So he runs out, he's got his bucket and he's just going from place to place to see if he can get like a little bit more under the tree or a little bit more, you know, over here. and the third little pig is nowhere to be seen. So, the two brothers are doing their thing, trying to get their rain, collect their rain, have something to drink, and about an hour later, the rain starts to let up, and it drips to a stop, and the first little pig, In the house made of straw is passed out on the ground. Just exhausted from all this running around trying to catch all the rain. The second little pig also tired because he's been desperately trying to catch rain, but he has, gotten himself like a gallon of water in this bucket. which is great. Like, he's going to be okay for the next couple of days. And then. The rain finally completely stops and the third little pig comes strolling casually out of his front door with a cup in his hand. And he walks around to the side of his house where he has a rain barrel that's connected to this gutter system that he put together and the, roof that collects the rain. And he goes and he turns the tap and he has the first of a month's worth or more, cups of water that is there waiting for him. And I came up with that story, which is basic, but hopefully it helps it stick in your mind, to kind of illustrate the fact that systems come in all shapes and sizes. Like all three of those brothers had a system, For collecting rainwater. The first one had a really basic reactive system, which was just like, oh, it's raining. Go get some. The second brother had a little bit of planning and foresight, and he had something that was going to make his action, have more sort of leverage, for lack of a better word. But the third brother. it takes time to construct a more complex system where you're like funneling rain and whatever. What it demonstrates though is real foresight. You're saying, okay, what's my problem? My problem is that I'm thirsty. What's going to happen is eventually it's going to rain. What am I going to do when it rains? And then he's figuring out a way to take full advantage of that, to take the most possible advantage of that. And that's really the way that I like to think about systems. We all have systems for everything, for brushing our teeth, for tying our shoes. Systems are just. A thing that our brain puts together because if we try to do everything for the first time every day, like nothing would ever get done right? Like it takes too much time. So we create these systems for ourselves. Many of them are totally subconscious and just sort of like we're just doing them. And when I talk to new photographers, oftentimes, if I ask them to describe Their processes. So I'll use that word instead of systems. They describe them and it's like they're sitting there thinking like, okay, what do I do next? Okay, this. What do I do after that? I do this and, and that's fine. And they probably do. a mediocre job. There are probably days where they do a great job, like they're on it, their mind is clear, they don't have anything going on in their personal lives, and they're like, great, I'm doing this. As soon as you get busy in your business or in your life, and you're trying to recreate that same process, Without the benefit of sort of a more thought out, written down, systematized process, that's when you start to run into trouble where you're forgetting things, you're skipping things. Your clients get a different experience. You know, one to the next or one, if they come back a month or a year later, they're like, Oh, last time we did this and this time we didn't. so you know, systems are great for all kinds of things. They kind of take the burden off of your brain for having to remember everything every single time, but they also help to. Create consistency. And when you get ahead of that reactivity, when you become more proactive with your systems, they also become you are able to accomplish more in the same amount of time because you've thought it through in a more complex way. That was a very long ramble. Sorry.

Raymond Hatfield:

I thought that that was a great analogy because, like you said, I mean, it really lays out, I think, perfectly the stages of business when we first get into it. I mean, I was very much that way. Like, Oh, I got an email. Uh, what do I say here? Uh, what, what can I, like, what kind of pricing am I going to tell them? Like even that basic, right? What, like, what is my pricing going to be for these people? But you know, different from the day before. and then I know that in my businesses, I started to figure out like the amount of mental energy it takes to figure those things out. Stinks. So let me go ahead and at least maybe just put in a piece of paper what my pricing should be, and then it grows from there. So I thought that that was a wonderful analogy. so help me figure out then how do we, what are kind of the most important areas of systems that we should be building here?

Annemie Tonken:

the way that I just described it, it's like, okay, so before I was like, I don't have any systems. And now I'm like, oh, I have a million systems and we all do. and that's actually the piece of systems or talking about systems that I find the most overwhelming. I can make systems feel really approachable by just saying oh, it's just a series of steps that you create in order or that you perform in order to produce a predictable outcome. That's like my basic definition of a system. The flip side of that, it's like it makes it more approachable, but it also kind of makes it overwhelming because it's like, Okay, well, where on earth do I start? Like, how am I going to get everything that's in my head out on paper? And so I always encourage people to think about their systems in three kind of buckets. And there are systems that don't fall neatly into any of these three, but because we are a service industry, our businesses are kind of broken down into three important components. You've got your marketing, where you are finding new people to connect with, people to be interested in your business, people to potentially reach out to inquire with you. So you want to have a system for your marketing. And then once those people do inquire, you need a sales system to convert them from inquiry into a booked client. So that is everything from your pricing, like you were talking about how you're going to present that. Do you go back and forth via email? Do you have a phone call? Do you have a meeting? What comes next? Do you send them a, you know, do you send them a package in the mail? Do you send them an email with a link to a contract? Do you do that through a CRM? Like, what are the steps? and then as soon as they book, as soon as they pay whatever your fee is and sign your contract, then they move into the third system that everybody needs, which is your fulfillment system. How do you fulfill the promise that you made to them the reason that they booked with you? So that's everything from, sending them your prep guide or you have a meeting or whatever to this, the session itself or the wedding or whatever it is that you're shooting, you're editing, you're like upload to a gallery software or however you're delivering those things. If there's a sales process in there, it falls within your fulfillment system. and then the delivery of any products or, whatever. That kind of takes you all the way to the end of that one client interaction relationship. But what I like about those three systems is that any photographer who's ever done any work for pay has at minimum the first little pig's version of a system for that. Like you have something. So start with what you have, like sit down and think through how do I do this? And I love that process, that sort of audit of what your current system is because as soon as you get it out of your head and onto paper, you start to see where the holes are, right? You start to think like, Oh, you know, I keep getting complaints about this one thing. If I just sent one more email here, I could kind of head that off at the pass or, you know, I'm always late. With my delivery of my photos. And it's because oftentimes I don't realize until it's been three weeks that like I haven't edited these photos yet. whatever the case may be, it's when it's in your head, for whatever reason, or at least this is true for me when it's in my head, I have a much harder time seeing things. Um, I mean, this can literally be as simple as just writing it all out in a on a sheet of notebook paper. That's when you start to really have insights about, what's working well and what's not working well in your business

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, there's that, uh, there's that David Allen quote of, your brain isn't made for, remembering information. It's made for creating the information, right?

Annemie Tonken:

who I love that. That validates me to a tee.

Raymond Hatfield:

So it's like that paper right there. Just getting those ideas out is a, is perfect. so one thing that I struggle with, I don't know if other struggle with this as well, but it's like, when I get interested in something, say systems like this, I'm going to try to brainstorm every possible system that I could create. And sometimes that means Maybe I'm not even at that level yet. Maybe I don't even implement this thing yet. So just candidly right now in the podcast, it is trying like setting up, getting an editor essentially for the podcast. So trying to figure out what do you do in this situation? What do you do in that? What happens? You know, how do you download the stuff? How do you get it back to me? Does it go to these places when I've never actually done any of that stuff, for the other person yet? So, How do you recommend that we get started in our businesses? It's literally just the things that we're currently doing right now. And then we grow, or are we trying to future cast the photography business that we want to have and build those systems?

Annemie Tonken:

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I am always. You know, it's kind of one of those do as I say, not as I do. I'm right there with you. One of the most common misconceptions that I think people have about systems is that they require some sort of like tech solution or whatever, hopefully what we were just talking about, about like putting together a checklist, putting together a Google sheet that has each step in your process and like each client is a line and you just go in and put a little checkmark or an X in each. You know, where they intersect as soon as you have done that step, that's it can be super, super basic. However, there are certainly tech solutions out there that can make systems easier and send you reminders when it's time to do stuff and all of those different things. I think that the first thing that you need to do if you are in the very beginning stages of this, if you've never done some sort of audit of your systems. just start with where, where you are right now and take that extra step of looking at your system, or even just the next time you go through that system, this time with a checklist in hand, be mindful, pay attention, like, okay, I'm checking this next thing off. Did that go well? Could it have gone better? I'm going to share a resource at the, in a little bit that I put together. For this conversation, that has to do with auditing your, like the way that I encourage people to audit their systems. so hopefully that'll go into a little bit more detail, but spoiler alert. It's not that it's complicated. It's the whole, you just have to do it. Then, once you have a basic understanding of that workflow, and we'll just call it a workflow instead of a system if that makes it easier. Like, use whatever language you want. From that, how do you get people to find you all the way to when you're done working with them once you've got all those steps written out and you start to see where the issues are, that's when you can start thinking, Okay, what do I want my business to look like? How do I want my business to feel? What do I want my client experience to be like? And. The intersection of what you sort of future cast for your business and, what is right now, like that's, those are your marching orders. I think that when you are moving from the catching rain in your mouth style of system, pure reactivity to You know, you're probably going to need a bucket before you have gotten a chance to build your entire rain collection system, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like, a bucket is better than running yourself ragged, trying to do it over and over again. But one of the things that you kind of touched on a little bit, That I love bringing up, even if you are in the brand new stages of your business, if you have a vision of being in this business for any period of time, and getting to a place where you are successful, however you determine, you know, define success at some point, you're going to want help on one or more parts of your business. And if you do, If you've never hired anyone before, my experience is that that is its own special kind of learning curve. Like, it is It's hard to go from just working independently to then telling somebody else what to do. But the best way to go into that process is to be like, here is my process and have that as explicitly written out as possible. There are so many pieces of our businesses that can be automated and or outsourced very effectively. Absolutely. Everything from basic data entry. I mean, certainly there's not tons of that in photography, but like client communication, inquiry, response, updating your website, certainly doing anything like SEO management, that sort of thing. social media, but right down to editing, which, a lot of times when I talk to photographers, they're like, I could never get that up. I could never get that up. And the fact of the matter is it is a repeatable, you're doing the same things over and over again. They have to do with aesthetic choices, which that can be trickier than, just like step one, click here. However, editors, professional editors are trained to understand the nuances of your, process. But if you just look at every single photo and you say, wow, what does this one need? And you just start over blank every time. First of all, bless you. You are wasting a ton of your time. but secondly, that is very difficult to hand over to somebody else versus saying like, I shift everything a little bit warm and I like to make my contrast, hit my contrast up and things like that. That makes that a doable thing to hand off. Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield:

I appreciate you explaining that. And, uh, more importantly, I appreciate you saying that, you know what, if you just show up with a bucket, Hey, that's better than just going out there and just open it up your mouth and hoping for the best. So, that's going to give a lot of people, uh, I think some, some hope that they can keep going with this. uh, we talked about the three different, uh, buckets of systems that we should be having being marketing, sales, and then fulfillment. Where do we start? is one more important than the other? Because in my head, I think let's start with marketing so that we can get the clients and then let's work on that and then keep going from there. but also in my head, I think, well, if I know what the system is from the end and then work myself backwards, then if I get, you know, a flood of rain, right, let's use the same analogy from my marketing, I'll be more prepared. So where do you suggest we start?

Annemie Tonken:

like ding, ding, ding. You totally hit the nail on the head there. I often use the, example of if you've ever been to a new restaurant that has gotten a lot of hype and then you get there and the service is terrible, it's the worst. It's almost universal. And I find that that is a good analogy because what happens is there's like a hip new place that looks really cool and the local media is like having a field day talking about, Oh, this celebrity chef, whatever. And they open their doors almost inevitably before they have their fulfillment system dialed in. So like they've overbooked the restaurant, they've under ordered the food. So nothing is available on the menu. And your waiter's like, this is my second day and I don't know what your table number is. So I forgot to come here for 30 minutes or whatever. if you've ever been on the receiving end of that, you know that you wish that they had delayed opening for two weeks to make sure that that piece of it is set up. Because what you do is you kind of shoot yourself in the foot. So if you are really starting in a, from scratch, but I get people all the time talking to me. I mean, and I'm sure this is true for you too. It's like the number one complaint that I hear from photographers, or not complaint, but like, when I say, what's your biggest problem, they say, I need to get more clients. And I think it makes sense to start with marketing in your mind, because it is that sort of chronological progression. You get the client, you sell to them, and then you fulfill. Time and time and time again, I have found that although it requires a little bit of like, delayed gratification and patience and trust that like, This is the right way to do it. If you start with fulfillment and you really dial in your fulfillment system, and then you move backward from that, your fulfillment system actually informs your sales system and your sales process and your sales pitch, because now, you know, like here's all the special little bells and whistles that I put into my fulfillment system. And here's what I'm, really promising to my. And you can build that into your sales system and you sound more confident, you sound more knowledgeable and all that sort of thing when you're selling. And then once you have your sales and your fulfillment systems all dialed in, it's like you're ready for that. Deluge of, uh, of rain at that point. That's when you start really going all in on your marketing and marketing is the system. The other two. Once you get them set up and they're running well, and you've started to automate them, or you've started to outsource things or whatever. Then it's like the spinning plates that you only periodically have to go push something and keep it going that'll operate on its own. Marketing is going to be for the duration of your career. It's something that you're going to have to actively work on. Again, everybody wants to jump into like, I need to post more on Instagram. I need to, whatever. My question is, how prepared are you to handle, if 30 people booked you tomorrow, would you panic? Or would you be like, yes, I am ready to go. And if you're not ready to go with that, then focus first on the other two. and trust that the better you get at those, The higher quality of inquiries that you're going to connect with and the more frequently they're going to actually convert into paid clients.

Raymond Hatfield:

And that's, that's the goal, right? More paid clients. Uh, have you heard the, uh, the phrase, uh, uh, the hug of death, from Oprah?

Annemie Tonken:

No.

Raymond Hatfield:

No. So a number of years ago, Oprah did this thing called like her favorite things or whatever. I think she still does it, but, she finds like these small businesses that make things that she loves. Well, Oprah has such a large audience that when she like tell

Annemie Tonken:

Oh, right.

Raymond Hatfield:

everybody goes and buy it, goes and buys it. And if it's a small business and they're not ready for the fulfillment side of it. It's a terrible experience for them. And oftentimes businesses have gone out of business, uh, because of that. So, it's, it's kind of similar to the like, man, if you, if you would have got that part ready, then you could have been, in a better situation to build your career off of that. And, it's kind of like winning the lottery, right.

Annemie Tonken:

Sure. Totally.

Raymond Hatfield:

My wife thinks that I'm crazy for saying this, but I really hope that we never win the lottery. Cause it's like, that sounds so horrible. but anyway, can you give us some examples of what are some systems that we should be starting? Cause when you say like marketing system, when you say, sales and fulfillment, that's not one, two, three systems were done. There's multiple things within that.

Annemie Tonken:

Within that.

Raymond Hatfield:

new photographers, like what's, what's just a good place to get started today.

Annemie Tonken:

Yeah, so, let's start with fulfillment since I'm here preaching that you should start at the, with the end in mind. my favorite way to do this and sort of in a pie in the sky kind of a way when you have all that like creative juice flowing and you've got 30 minutes to yourself and you can just sort of sit with a journal or with your laptop and, and sort of just think out. What the perfect experience client experience would be so if You had all the time in the world and the budget that you wanted and all this other stuff to put together like this amazing Client experience. What does that look like for you? One of the things that I am very vocal about is that Your business, like there is no reason to run a photography business unless you are setting yourself up to love the work that you do, because this is never going to be, or like almost never going to be like, oh, I make seven figures and I whatever, drive a Lamborghini. Like, that's not why we get into this. if that's why you're in it, you might want to think about something else. But, and that's not to say that you can't make a perfectly great salary, but it is, We do this in large part because we want to do the thing that we love and earn a living doing it. So stick with that thing that you love piece. And the client fulfillment side is really often a piece that we all kind of have these thoughts or fantasies about as we start our businesses. Like, Oh, maybe you want to have a beautiful studio with this like amazing, experience where people come in and get their hair and makeup done and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or maybe you want to meet people out in the park or however that looks to you. I want you to think that through step by step by step by step and really think about what would make this enjoyable for me and what would make it enjoyable and maybe even like a little special for my clients. This is the other piece about really, you know, Auditing your systems. spelling them out, whatever. It's not just that you can see the problems. It's also that you can see the opportunities to like, put in that little special touch that you become known for, or if you already have a thing that you're kind of known for, you know, you send homemade cookies to somebody as soon as they book or whatever, then knowing that and knowing that that step is there, and like exactly where it happens just kind of gives you the ability to plan for it and potentially, if you do get to a place where you're super busy, like you can continue to manage that without losing it. yeah, it, I guess, I don't know if you were looking for something more specific than that, but that really is the way that I like to Think about systems, and I do this regularly in my business because the thing about our businesses is that they're always growing and evolving. We're always taking on new pieces of tech or like adding a new marketing thing that we're trying or whatever. And, And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with it kind of growing, but you without revisiting it on a regular basis. And that's why I feel like this, like systems audit process is not just something that you do once, is that our systems tend to, take on. bulk and weight and like they, they become sort of awkward or not streamlined. And so it's just always a matter of going back and being like, Oh, this isn't working anymore. I'm going to get rid of that. And I'm going to replace it with this thing, or I'm not using this piece of tech anymore, or I, I'm paying too much for that. So I'm going to, I'm going to substitute this other thing. It's just, it's honestly, it's paying attention to your business as opposed to just running around trying to catch the rain.

Raymond Hatfield:

Absolutely. I found the exact same thing in my business. and I think probably the hardest part for me, and maybe it's just the way that my brain works, was trying to figure out how to keep all of these documents

Annemie Tonken:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

they do change, they do update. But at the same time, sometimes, as you said, you introduce a new piece of tech, you, you know, you do something else, and then those systems. Change in a way that like they morph So figuring out like wait, am I still doing this? Where does this go? That was always hard for me and just to share Here real quick. One thing that I did that I found really helpful was that I started with mapping out a client journey, right? so like here's how they find me and then here's how our Process ends, right? Here's how our journey together ends and then from there. It was like a timeline and essentially everything that I would mark off would be the system that I would need to create. So, that kind of helped me visually see like, okay, I'm at this stage now, I'm at this stage, and now this is what I do at this stage. Uh, rather than just having a folder full of Google Docs. So if anybody's listening and maybe they're more visual in that way, that's, that's what I found. but how, how do you keep yours? Is it, is it just a Google Doc full, uh, or what do you do?

Annemie Tonken:

Yeah, well, it depends. I mean, at this point I have, um, enough of these sort of built out that there's, they're in, a handful of places depending on what they're for. But the first place that I would recommend that, a photographer who's looking to really get serious about this, would be to look into a CRM for your business. So a client relationship management. Tool and there are a bunch of them. Honeybook, Dubsado, 17 hats, Tave, like I could, the list goes on. There's a bunch, they, are made and several of them are specifically for photographers. They are made to help you organize your workflows. And again, we can potato potato this all day long, but a workflow is just a, a mini system specifically for that. And I love the way that you talk about the timeline with its little offshoots. That's actually, it is pretty close to the way that I think about it, but I've never said that out loud. So that's great. anyway, and it will hold all of those things in one place. And then let's say that you have a particular workflow for your wedding clients. Then when you book a wedding client, you're going to apply that workflow to them. And that's going to help You know, that, that piece of software is then going to say, like, Oh, it's now four weeks before the wedding. So you need to send email X, Y, Z, that you have service, stored right here. If a CRM feels overwhelming is not in the budget, whatever, you know, yourself. As well as anybody. Some people like things in a binder. Some people like things in a Google, folder or a Dropbox folder. I think that just starting to create those things is really the first step. done is better than perfect. You will never get this process perfect. And so, just getting started is really the way to go.

Raymond Hatfield:

Perfect. we talked a lot about systems today. Some people are thinking, wow, this is kind of a new concept to me. There's a lot going on here. I don't know what the next step is. Where do we go? where can we find one more about you online? Obviously find your podcast as well. But also, uh, once you share with us your resource on on creating systems for ourselves.

Annemie Tonken:

Yeah, yeah. So the resources, this systems audit, I have a little video lesson about it. And then there's, um, a worksheet workbook thing that you can, go and use and, it's totally free and that I'm just going to put it at this can't be that hard. com slash audit. BPP for beginner photography podcast. and so you can go grab that. but everything that I do is under this can't be that hard. So that's the name of the podcast. That's my website. That's my Instagram. the next time you're saying like, why is this so difficult? This can't be that hard. Come think of me.