The Beginner Photography Podcast

Lightning Fast Photo Editing with Imagen AI with Scott Wyden Kivowitz

• Raymond Hatfield

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#460 In today's episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast, I chat with photographer Scott Wyden Kivowitz about harnessing AI to revolutionize your photo editing, freeing up valuable time dive deeper into creativity and business growth.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Embrace Change for Creative Freedom: AI tools like Imagen AI can automate the mundane, leaving you with more time for creativity.
  • Learn from the Past, Leverage the Future: Understanding film's discipline enhances your appreciation, but AI's speed and ease can transform your workflow.
  • The Ethical Use of AI is Empowering: Using AI to edit isn't cheating; it's smart business, letting you focus on shooting and final touches.
  • Personal Development is Key: Stay curious about emerging tech. Tools like Imagine can adapt to personal styles, helping you evolve.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

  • Explore AI Editing Tools: Sign up for Imagen AI's free trial at https://imagen-ai.com/ to familiarize yourself with automated photo editing and experience how it can expedite your workflow. Select a recent batch of photos and use Imagen AI's profile to edit them, observing the time you save and the quality of the output.
  • Enhance Your Photography Skills: Dedicate time each week to practice shooting in different lighting conditions to understand your camera's capabilities and how to adjust settings for the perfect shot. Analyze your photos post-shoot to identify areas for improvement, then apply those insights to refine your technique in your next session.
  • Leverage AI for Business Efficiency: Implement AI note-taking software in your client meetings to ensure you capture all requirements without losing focus on the conversation. Reinvest the time saved by using AI tools into marketing efforts or client engagement to grow your photography business.
  • Educate Yourself on the Evolution of Photography: Delve into the history of photography, including the discipline of film, to deepen your appreciation and understanding of the craft's foundations. Experiment with different styles and techniques from history, then fuse them with modern technology to create a unique aesthetic in your work.
  • Invest in Continuous Learning: Subscribe to photography podcasts and join online photography communities to stay informed about the latest trends, tools, and techniques to continually evolve your craft. Set aside regular intervals to review and practice what you've learned from these resources to integrate this knowledge practically into your photography projects.

Resources:

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Let's say you're, you're just getting into photography. You did a family session. It's even your own family, right? You did set your camera up on a tripod. You shot your own family session. Now you're for the next four or five hours, you're in your office on the computer editing versus setting it off to imagine having it back in two minutes. And that those four to four or six hours, you're now playing with your grandkids. Or your kids, or whatever it might be, rather than being in an office editing photos. What can I do with that time back?

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield, and today we are chatting with photographer Scott Widenkiewicz about AI photo editing and how it can help you to become a better photographer that you want to be. Thanks for tuning in. But first, the beginner photography podcast is brought to you by cloud spot. They have everything that you need to build a thriving photography business for you to impress your clients, deliver a professional experience, and even streamline your workflow all in one platform. So grab your free forever account today at deliverphotos. com and only upgrade when you and your business are ready. Now Scott has been on the podcast, before back in episode 122, and I was even able to meet him down at imaging USA this year, Scott is a, uh, he's a great guy, you know, he's super knowledgeable about all things kind of future and tech. And, uh, today he works for a company called imagine AI, which offers AI photo editing. and as you're going to hear in this interview, It really isn't just for volume shooters or professionals, but also for people like you and me, you know, who just love the process of shooting maybe a little bit more than, editing. You're also going to learn how to understand your own editing style, right? It's not about removing editing. It's about, you know, incorporating it into your workflow. How embracing efficiency is going to allow you to do more of what you love and how to maintain your creativity and control when using external tools. So with that. Let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Scott Wyden Kivowitz. Tell me, when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Um, that's really interesting. I originally was going to college for music, so I didn't think photography was going to play any role in my life. However, while I was going to see bands play and touring myself, I always had a camera with me and I was always photographing bands. and then eventually started photographing their press photos, like their media kit photos. And It wasn't until I realized I hated music theory. That I switched to photography because I always loved photography as well. Um, and my biological father and my grandfather are both hobbyist photographers. And so I inherited their cameras and I'm like, let me try it. And, uh, I switched to photography in college and realized I loved all the theory of photography. Photography, like the shutter speeds, the apertures, what happens when you throw a flash into the mix, all of it. So I feel like that's when I knew like, this is it. photography, whether I'm shooting or whether I'm on the business side of things to educate photographers. I knew that was my future.

Raymond Hatfield:

So, I feel like in talking with a lot of photographers that I have on the podcast and I'm sure that you felt the same way. do you find that like, there seems to be two camps of photographers, like those who get into it. Strictly for like the creative element, like, Oh, I can create something so interesting. And then those who are really interested in the, the technical side and being able to like, kind of put these pieces together. Did you fall into that, that ladder category?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

I would actually say I'm sort of in between, I love the creative part. I can't paint. My grandmother was a painter. I can't paint. Uh, I can't draw. But I felt that I could always create something really beautiful, or exciting, or whatever it might be uh, with photos. So, I enjoy the creative part, but I think I probably lean a little bit more towards I enjoy the technical parts more than anything. Um, so, yeah, I think you're right, but I do think there is that, like, gray area in between somewhere, that there's that little overlap.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Well, it's fun when you, like, when you know how to use the tool and then yeah, you, you see something in your head and then you can go after it and then you actually achieve it. Like that's a really cool, yeah, that's a really cool feeling. Um, so then did you graduate from college with a degree in photography? Is that, is that what you got? Photography, technology, in fact. Ah, there we go. We are going back to the technical side. That is you? Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep, yep. Yeah. So the school I went to, um, they didn't. Have just a photography degree. They had photography technology. I was very fortunate. The school had, a full color and black and white dark room. it had a full, iMac digital lab where, um, at the, at that point it was, Photoshop was the only light room didn't exist at that point. so there was that there was a combination of you have to learn the tech, the technology behind. Film photography and what to do with it, but you also have to learn the world is transitioning to digital So start learning Photoshop. It was a wide range of things Um, a beautiful thing is they had a at least at the time they had a budget where every Student had a Hasselblad to have for the entire year And every other students you had a pair up had a large format camera for the entire year. Really? They had a really good budget for photography, um, and uh, so I got to learn not only how to, you know, use those cameras properly with, in the studio or out in the environment, but also process and print from film to, you know, the actual print output. so I got to do it all and learn it all. It was a lot of fun. What do you think is missing today? Like, obviously most people getting into photography today, strictly digital. Uh, it's the easiest thing to do, right? You just get into it. Yeah. Oftentimes now a lot of photographers get into film photography much later, but like getting into photography today, just in that digital world, do you think that there's anything that photographers are missing or, just don't get by not being in that world of film photography anymore?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Yeah, I think that is exactly it actually. I think a lot of people getting into the digital. Realm. Immediately. Whether they pick up a film camera eventually or not. I feel like they are missing out on truly understanding what it used to be and how difficult it was that you couldn't just take a thousand photos at a wedding or, 300 photos of one fashion client in the studio, whatever it is, you had to take your time, figure out the light ahead of time before you click that shutter button. I feel like that was, something that a lot of people are missing. Yes, there's film labs out there. You can just send off the film and shoot film, but again, you're missing. The experience and the disappointment if you got it wrong, because that will cost you a lot of money at that point, a lot of time at that point. Whereas now if you get it wrong, it's just, okay, well I'll take 500 more, So I feel like that is, a missed opportunity for a lot of people to, to really, learn what their craft truly came from, respect and understand it more now. Um, I'm not saying it like it has to come back, but it is, you know, in some ways you kind of wish it would.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. It's like, um, I don't remember where I heard this from, but somebody said like, if you build a house with just like a handsaw and a hammer, you're going to appreciate, a, uh, a circular saw and like a nail gun so much more.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Yeah. And

Raymond Hatfield:

I think that that's kind of it. Cause I, I too, shot a lot of film, growing up and developed it myself. And it was a, it's a wild experience. And today, a lot of that is missing. Not that I think that it, Takes away from, the photographers and what it is that we create because, again, like it's just another tool and it's, how we use it. Right. At the end of the day, like if you know how to, I feel like in photography, a lot of times the ends justify the means, right? Like if you get a photo that can emotionally connect with somebody, it doesn't matter if like you took that photo on auto, it doesn't matter if you shot it on, you know, large format, it doesn't matter if you set up the lighting or if it was just, you know, naturally just beautiful right then. A compelling photo is a compelling photo. So we need to figure out how to get more compelling photos. And with digital, I think a lot of it is just that like, it's so much easier to just continue shooting and then hope for the best, which, isn't necessarily the, the way that I would suggest most people getting into it. but. That's kind of where we're at today. So it's like, let's figure out how to help photographers who are there and achieving better photos. So, tell me a little bit about the, company that you work for, because y'all are doing something amazing. And, I think that it's helping a lot of photographers as well. Kind of again, achieve more impactful photos quicker.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Yeah. so the quick summary of what Imagine does is we are, a post production company. Um, so we, our app is a standalone app that works on Mac or Windows and at our, at our core, we're an AI software company. So our AI can learn how you edit in Lightroom. at the moment it's Lightroom Classic only, that is changing very soon. and, uh, we can learn how you would edit in Lightroom. And once you've, we've got what we call an AI profile, we can then edit for you. Lightroom. 1500 photos in 10 minutes or less, so you can knock out a wedding in no time. we've got photographers that are doing four, three or four day South Asian weddings and then they send it to Imagine before they go to sleep on the last night and when they wake up. Done. They can, they could, if they want deliver a four day wedding the next day. now that is like the core of what imagine does. We started about four years ago doing editing. And, since then we have, we've also come out with AI calling. So we can, analyze your photos and do selections for you based on your preferences and, and do the calling for you. And also we now have automated cloud backups for your files. And it's a very photographer specific method of backing up. We're backing up while you're sending to us, to Cole, or while you're sending us to edit. And if you do edit with Imagine, then your edit data is stored alongside your raw files. So that way if you, a true disaster scenario, if you lost everything, you could recover your, your raw files with your edits as if you never lost them. So that is a, the gist of what Imagine does.

Raymond Hatfield:

This is, uh, this is super cool. as a, uh, as, you know, somebody who shot weddings for 10 years, I think for me, my biggest pain point, outside of sometimes getting clients was the editing process, because it's like, I loved shooting. I got into photography because I love this, ability to create something. As you said, you know, you're not a painter. I was not a painter. My drawing skills were absolute garbage. Like, if my son and I, or, you know, my daughter and I were to do like a drawing contest, you wouldn't be able to know like, Oh, this one is the adult. This one's the child. Like it's terrible. It's real bad. So being able to create something with my camera has always been, something that I valued. But the editing process has never been fun for me. It's never really been something that I enjoyed. So this is something that I can allow a lot of photographers to, Give them that space to be able to get that done and then continue to shoot. But for new photographers, I'm sorry, go on.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Yeah, no, no. I was going to say like, um, I've always kept my editing simple for a very specific reason, not necessarily because I hate it, but I do hate it, but more because I'm actually colorblind. So in college, my professor would actually, give me the guidance of like, okay, go back to the darkroom. You got to make this adjustment. Um, post college, I would rely on the color checker passport. I would rely on a color monkey for my monitor. I'd rely on my wife who is really good with color to give me some guidance in all my editing and make sure the colors are good. But now I, now I just use, imagine I don't have to worry about the colors spot on every time. So that's a big advantage. Whether you hate editing or you have a physical disability to make editing more difficult, now you have a solution.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. I had never even thought about that. that is awesome. So still, okay, so then technical question then real quick about that. So you have to provide some sort of, a reference for Imagine to be able to edit off of, right?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Great question. We have three methods. one, the bread and butter, what we started with four years ago was, um, send us 3000 or more previous edits that you've done and we will learn from that. And a process to learn from takes less than 24 hours. The other method, which we also started with is called talent AI profiles, which are, we've partnered with some of the fantastic photographers, many of which have been on your show and um, and their editing styles actually built into the app that anybody can use. So whether you. So if you are new to photography, whether you are not comfortable editing, you're not, confident in your editing, whatever it might be, you can use one that's built in right away. It's available to you. and the third, which is our newer method is, it's called a light personal AI profile, which is you can actually train it based on a Lightroom classic preset combined with a survey to personalize that to you. And, just like a regular personal AI profile, it can learn from you over time and just get better and better and better. and that process takes about 10 seconds to build a profile and then you can use it. So we have three methods to get started with Imagine.

Raymond Hatfield:

That okay, that is, that is super cool. So uh, so for you, you had to upload your own photos to create your own profile? Is that right?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

So, I did do that. I have, two profiles that I use on a regular basis and some that I just play around with. I, I've been toying around, did you see Asteroid City? Uh uh. No, okay, so there's a Sanderson

Raymond Hatfield:

movie, right? Yes. Yes.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

I've been playing around trying to create a profile um, again, i'm not great at editing and I Have a color disability, so I'm not not so good at it, but I've been playing around with trying to make a profile that basically does that That look just not for like I would never use it for a client, but just for fun I love that look the super orangey teal pale tones. I love it So I've been trying to work on that but like you can have as many profiles as you want or need So we don't limit it

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, that's cool. I didn't, uh, I didn't even think of that because, I know personally and actually yesterday I was, uh, re listening to my interview with, uh, Ben Chrisman, and he was saying that, like, for weddings, his look is very different than his own personal look for his own, like, family photos. For the family photos, he loves that, like, dark, black and white, uh, contrasty, gritty, uh, you know, type of photo. Whereas, obviously, for weddings, it's a little more, polished, crisp, personal, or professional, so that. That's great. That makes sense. so then let me ask, because this is, the beginner photography podcast, right? A lot of the people listening right now, are having a hard enough time learning how to use their camera. Like some of them haven't even thought about editing yet. And again, for me, I knew right away, I was like the idea of learning Lightroom for me, I was like, Oh, I already know that I don't want to learn editing. This is something that I don't want to do, but now it seems like there's other options. so let me ask because I'm kind of unclear here and I want people to fully understand maybe what is the perfect use case for Imagine. does Imagine work for photographers who shoot like as a hobby and they go out on the weekend, they have fun, they photograph their family, or is this more geared towards the professional, shooter shooting for, you know, paid gigs?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

So we have the whole gamut using Imagine, it, obviously like it's made for, the high volume shooters who are doing weddings or they're doing corporate events or they're doing, full family sessions or anything that's like, I have to edit a lot of photos and I don't want to edit a lot of photos. Um, or, I'd rather work on other things than the editing, right? I'd rather do the fine retouching maybe than the editing, whatever it is. so that's what it was originally made for. But we have landscape photographers that are using Imagine. We have real estate photographers that are using Imagine. you name it, we have pet, a lot of pet photographers, uh, what's it called? Uh, I can't think of the name off the top of my head, like, people just go to horse shows and just photograph horses, um. Equestrian. Equestrian, yes. We have a lot of equestrian photographers that are using it. Everybody, any type of photography you can think of, that are using it, imagine. Newborn photography, which, they might be delivering ten photos, like, A lot of newborn photographers, you can imagine. So, it really could be anybody. and for the beginner, if you're not editing yet, if you're not comfortable editing yet, you don't know what to do, I think the talent AI profiles is definitely the way to go. Because you don't have to think about creating a style or learning from you when you can't, because you don't have anything yet. It's more just, let me open the app, drop in the photos, and have one of these talent profiles. Do the work for me. and you can then do adjustments there if you want to learn, you can then have it do the adjustments for you. I mean, uh, you can have it, you can then do your final adjustments afterwards, back in your editor. but, uh, but yeah, and just, uh, Foreshadow a little bit. I'm not exactly sure when this feature is going to be released versus when the episode airs. But I, so I'm going to preface this with this is coming. the ability to edit without the need of Lightroom classic. So any app in the Adobe ecosystem, just from a folder, if you want to just use bridge and use Adobe camera on side of bridge or Photoshop and Adobe camera or Lightroom CC on the local side, you can still use imagine, folder support is. around the corner from the day we're recording this. So, um, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. again, like that's one of those things that a lot of photographers, they, have a hard time with the subscription model of paying for editing when they don't even like editing, you know? So, being able to send off your photos and have photos that, that you like, that you enjoy, that, you've built kind of a profile for yourself, and still, you know, still get those great photos. Um, I think that that's gonna be a hit for a lot of photographers. Um, those photographers who, uh, again, do understand that, like, maybe their strong suit is shooting, uh, rather than editing. And they'd rather, you know, get those photos back as fast as possible, still be able to share, uh, and still be able to get out and shoot more. So, let's kind of explore, like, when is the right time to get into something like this? Because there is a cost associated with it. There is, um, you know, you have to have some knowledge of photography to just to know what it is that you want to get out of it. when is the right time to get into something like this? Is it the day that you get your camera or is it, you know, a few months? Is it a few years down the road? when do you suggest?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

so I wouldn't suggest day one. I would say once you've. Experimented with how you might want to edit or what apps you might like, or, maybe for some, like, it becomes more of like a paid hobby in some ways, where it's not just purely, you know, Purely for fun, but then at the same time like there are people who are using it just for fun So it's very hard to say. I don't think it's a one size fits all type of thing. I think it's unique for everybody's situation Because we like I said we do have the people who are doing it for themselves And we do have the people who are making a lot of money in their business For it. So it, the full, full spectrum of abuse cases. I wouldn't put one size fits all, unfortunately in that,

Raymond Hatfield:

uh, I appreciate your honesty there. That was kind of a loaded question, wasn't it? Yeah, tell me, tell me where is the start line. but like you said, it is kind of different for everybody and that, that makes sense. Yeah. Um, a lot of people do like the editing. Uh, it was not me, and I'll tell ya, it took me a month to edit my first wedding, and I would've, I would've paid anything to be done with that, like, any sooner, cause it was just, it was horrendous, and I still look at those photos and think, what did I spend a month on? Like, these are, these are terrible edits, so. Um, well, let's, then talk about a little bit what it is that this is all about. No, I take that back. There's going to be a stigma. I know that a lot of photographers right now are thinking to themselves, Okay, well if we're just outsourcing our editing, like what is it that we're doing, right? any raw form of a product, is not the finished product. So what are we doing kind of outsourcing this? Like, have you heard any like ethical concerns or, um, just, you know, Oh, of course. Personal things, uh, and what are they?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Yeah, we don't hear it as much as we used to when we first started almost four years ago or four years ago. we heard it a lot more because we created this whole genre that didn't exist yet. but these days we don't hear it as much, but basically there was, there was a hesitation of, yeah, I'm outsourcing to AI to do this work for me. am I giving my clients everything I can? And you have to look at it like this way. One. Photographers have been outsourcing generations, right? They've, um, even film days, people were outsourcing to labs, film labs to do all that work for them. So that they didn't have to be in a darkroom slaving away, doing all the processing and printing. So people have been doing it for generations. when it came time for digital, they're outsourcing to digital editing labs that are humans. and now you have, these, these, yeah, you have AI that you can do it yourself. And then do final touches on so like you're, um, just to bring it back to let's say portrait photographers or a headshot photographer, right? Headshot, I find headshot photographers is a place a lot of photographers, beginners start because it's very systematic, right? and You don't have to be great to just get into it. Obviously, there's a big difference between like a professional headshot photographer and somebody who's just starting out. But, I feel like the gap to get started is small. But let's say it's a headshot, right? You're setting it off to, to imagine to have your headshot done. You get it back. Now you open up your editor, whichever Adobe product it might be, and, uh, you can now do your fine retouching, remove blemishes that, that were there, or like, Oh, there was a spot on my paper background, let's remove that, or whatever it might be, like the fine details that you may have enjoyed doing. or maybe stuff that just imagine doesn't do for you. So you're taking care of flyaway hairs and stuff that the AI can't do or doesn't do at the moment. there's a lot of these human editors now are starting to use, AI to do that, tedious mundane stuff. And now even the human editors are, the money you would pay for a human editor, they're spending that time doing the retouching rather than the core, more boring stuff. So, it's uh, I wouldn't think, I would recommend to not look at it like an ethics thing of, but more of like, what can I do with that time back of the stuff that I just all that time slaving away behind a computer editing. I mean, for the new, new photographers, you're not used to it at this point, I guess, but you could be doing so much more. let's say you're, you're just getting into photography. you did a family, family session. It's even your own family, right? You did set, set your camera up on a tripod. You shot your own family session. And now you're, for the next four or five hours, you're in your office on the computer editing versus setting it off to imagine having it back in two minutes. And that those four to four or six hours, you're now playing with your grandkids or your kids or whatever it might be, rather than being in an office editing photos. Yeah. Like, so there's, again, like there's no one size fits all, but there is a way for it to impact everybody and still be ethical.

Raymond Hatfield:

I would imagine that this would also help those. Who are transitioning from maybe like a full time or like a W 2 job into going full time to get there quicker, um, or at least alleviate the stress because, you know, if you're a wedding photographer, you go out on weekend, like half of your weekend is already gone because, because you're shooting a wedding. And now how many either additional wedding or weekend days or just evenings are you spending? Editing it seems like this would be able to get that time back so that you can continue to market more weddings I love that.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Yeah, here's a story for you. There's a Unfortunately, I've heard this story from multiple imaginers, but This one really struck a nerve or struck a chord. Whatever you want to call it when she told me the story One one person was got divorced And at the time she was not shooting too much. She was not taking on many paid jobs. It was like more, I'm at the dance school or gymnastic school, for my kid and I'm taking pictures. And every so often that school would hire her to just do the photos for the school, um, because she was there already. And she got divorced and she knew she couldn't live, you know, with one, whatever money she was making on her own, her own salary, whatever it was. So she almost lost her house. And then she discovered Imagine, and she realized, Oh, I can go to other dance schools and other gymnastics schools, and like, I can take on a lot of, schools and a lot of, a lot of the, you know, the photos for the kids, and just use Imagine to knock out the editing and the culling real fast. And we, we saved her house. She's now making money to pay her mortgage, um, on one salary, and she took on a lot of schools and she's just able to manage it as a solo photographer and now a single mom. and yeah, I'm sure she's still stressed, but far less than what it could have been otherwise. And she could have lost her house. Wow,

Raymond Hatfield:

that is uh, that is incredible. That is incredible.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

And I'm not quite sure she was a beginner when this all went down originally, but she was shooting for a while for sure. I don't think she was taking on many jobs. paid jobs at that

Raymond Hatfield:

point, but probably because she didn't have the time, right to edit and she had the family, she had all these things going on. That is, uh, that is a great story. So yeah, I mean, there you go. It can help you to achieve full time if that's what you want quicker or allow you to be that weekend warrior, uh, without, uh, having to spend all of your additional time editing. That is super cool. That is super cool.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

when it comes to, Getting your photos back. can you kind of talk to me about like, what does the process look like? Like when we send off our photos, say that they're in, you know, as you said, they could be Adobe products, but let's just say that it's in Lightroom, uh, classic, you send it off. There's no edits done to it. You send them off to imagine when you get them back. are these like. Uh, you know, for those listening and they're wondering, are they JPEGs that are fully edited or are they still the RAWs with a sidecar that have all the edited information? Like, what does it look like when you get it back?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Yeah. So, uh, long and short of it is, it is still your RAW files or JPEGs, depending on what you shoot. Non destructive, just as if you edited it yourself. Um, so to get a little more technical for those who are interested in the technical parts of it, um, Lightroom Catalog is basically a database. So, Lightroom also has a feature where you can turn on XMP support if you want Lightroom to read and write XMP files. It's off by default on new installs. when you send it to Imagine, we are then editing it, sending it back, and we are writing all of the edit data directly back into the database of your catalog. So, we're not actually writing the XMP file, but once you open Lightroom, if you have XMPs turned on, then it is, Lightroom is then writing the XMP of all the edits. so yes and no XMPs, but it is ejected right into Lightroom as if you did it yourself. You would never know Imagine did it, unless you look at the history and you will see Imagine and then the name of the profile that was used to edit shows up in the history. otherwise it would look like you did it. Um, when it comes to the folders, editing from a folder, we are writing the XMP files back to that folder for you.

Raymond Hatfield:

So when you get images back, if there is something that you want to tweak, maybe it's a little warmer than you wanted cooler than you expected, you can still make those tweaks. You can see what imagine did, and then you can still adjust those tweaks as if it was your. Yeah. Yeah. You can

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

adjust everything. you can do those final edits. And then if you use the personal AI profile, uh, profile, which learns from either your preset or from your edits. Then you can actually fine tune that profile and send that those final edits back to us and over time Your profile can be triggered to retrain based on all that new data So it just gets smarter and smarter and smarter as time goes by

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay, this this may be a wild question here, but I'm gonna go ahead and ask I'm gonna push a Scott Okay, this is where we're going. Okay. What do you think? Do you think that it's still? How important do you think it is for new photographers still to learn a tool like, like Lightroom and learn to edit? Do you think that Imagen is going to remove the need for editing completely in the future like, like digital did for, uh, learning how to, how to learn different film stocks and when you need those for different situations, what do you think about that?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

So our goal is not to remove the, the creativity from the photographer. yes, we're going to be adding things that are to remove the tedious parts of everything, right? So we have skin smoothing available and we have subject, subject mask and crop and straighten and more to come, but We're not adding things that are going to be completely removing the photographer from the equation because we want you to still be in control over everything. We want you to be able to be creative with your work. we just want to remove that boring stuff from your plate so you can focus on the creative stuff or focus on family time or focus on the, you know, expanding the business or, going on a trip or watching Netflix or whatever it is you want to do. I see us ever removing editing from the equation completely. just aiding into giving you more time to focus on the more important stuff. of it all.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I think that's that's really important. Because, you know, again, I think photographers already are kind of scared of AI. They're scared that it's going to take away their jobs because people can just take a selfie on their phone and then upload it somewhere. And now magically they have some sort of wild boobie. Professional looking headshot. Um, so it's like AI has this weird connotation to it, to where it's so helpful when it comes to coming up with ideas and, you know, creating marketing material. But then also it's kind of taking our jobs and like, it's scary. So, for you, I'd love to know, just kind of like, what are your thoughts on AI? Because. There's been, there's no denying it, it's both. It's both scary and really exciting.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Oh yeah. What do you think the

Raymond Hatfield:

future of AI holds for photographers?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

That's so funny. on my show, because imagine it's a podcast called Workflows, and that is actually one of the questions I asked every guest, what is the future of AI photography look like to you? Um, so nice for the coin to be flipped. Um, um, Of course, I'm living in the AI world, and I'm living in the photography world on a daily basis. yes, there are some scary things. I look at what ChatGP what ChatPT ChatGPT is doing with What do they call it, Sora? The new video, AI generation? Like, that is freaky. you know, like, yes, creating images is, um, also kind of wild, but when it's a moving image, it, you know, when it's a video, it becomes more realistic. but there's so many things that are just, Really, really cool that are not scary, don't have any ethical concerns for me, I look at all of this first of all, one, AI has been in our lives way longer than we, what most people realize, right? It's in your car and it's been there for a long time, um, it's in your camera and it's been there for a long time, it's just getting better and better, in a way, it's kind of been in your flashes. You know, in your little speedlights, uh, with TTL, like it's not true AI, but it is machine learning and they're getting better and better. It's been there for longer than the word AI has been around. Um, So, I think, one, for me at least, people need to realize, like, there's good AI, and there's scary AI, and, I think, we as photographers just need to embrace and understand how the good AI's work, whether it's Imagen or whether it's what Photoshop can do with its AI, you know, cause like, generative, f fill of like, putting a random bird into a photo, Yes, that could have some, scary, outputs to it, depending on the person who's doing it. But at the same time, if you did a horrible crop in camera and you need to do a generative expand, like, that's a beautiful thing to be able to fix a Mistake you made in camera, right? Yeah. so beautiful. And then there's like, there's a gallery solutions, like that are adding AI right into their galleries that make it easier for clients to find their photos. that's not scary. Yeah, I mean, facial recognition, some people are leery about it, but that's a nice use that helps people in the end. I mean, your phone, your Apple phone or your Google phone, right? They both have the same thing. Facial recognition to find a person. Not scary to most people, but to some people, facial recognition again, scary. I mean, the list can go on of, good AI that's just beneficial to us. Thanks. At the end, there's emails, right? So majority of the world using Gmail, right? Further emails. Gmail has AI, right? whether you're using it in your photography business or just your personal email, Gmail has AI now, um, that can start emails for you. But then there's third party apps like Superhuman, Canary, Spark, that all have AI that you can literally open up the AI and say, find my email that talked about this. And summarize the entire thread.

Raymond Hatfield:

Really?

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

And, yeah! That's cool. Like, so I, I um, go back and forth between different email apps. I used to use Spark until they went to subscription. Um, Superhuman is a, it's a subscription. Canary is, you can buy a one time lifetime purchase. That's what I did. And now i'm playing with Canary more. But I can literally just load the AI tab and just tell it what I need from all of my entire lifetime email archive from Gmail and And it summarizes whatever I need for me. so like there's things like that, that not necessarily is actually with a camera, but can still help your photography, in ethical, useful ways that I love, I mean, but again, I'm a technology guy, so,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah, yeah. You know, I think it, comes down to like, uh, all of these things. at the end of the day are tools, right? my daughter for Christmas, she wants to be very handy. she likes building things. So it's like, we bought her this little toolbox from Lowe's and inside there's like a little hammer and a little tape measure and stuff like that. And she wanted to build a little birdhouse. So like, we started building this, tiny little birdhouse. And it's like, for her, This nail and this hammer, the perfect tool to keep all of this thing, together, I wouldn't give her a nail gun, but I think we can all agree that like a nail gun is a better tool than a hammer and a nail, but it all depends on like what, how you're using it. and well, like your use case. So I understand being scared of it, but like I too, I'm so excited about all these things that are, that are coming out because they're allowing me, more time to be, To do the things that I love to be more creative in the ways that I like to be creative. And I think that's what gets lost a lot is that, I think that the people who are going to take a selfie of themselves and get like a professional headshot, they're not the people who would have hired like a professional photographer anyway. So it's like, that's fine. They can go ahead and do that. You know, if an entire office is going to need headshots. They're going to hire a photographer to do that if, you know, as, a one man band here on this podcast and as a photographer, it's like, if I need help to do something, I'm not going to go to AI to, to just have clients email me photos of themselves like that. They took with their phone and then generate wedding photos for them. I'm going to want to be there to take those photos. And I'm going to use AI to do all the other things like the email management and the editing and stuff like that.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

You know, it's interesting. Um, so two things I want to mention. One, is like right now, you know, we're, we're recording this in zoom, right? And you've got a, an AI bot taking meeting notes for us right now. Yeah, I do. Yeah. I use, I, I use a different company than what you're using. They do the same exact thing. Right. and, uh, that in itself, right. Such a simple thing that photographers can do for their client meetings. Thanks. Have an AI join your meeting, because most of these meetings are now virtual, and take notes for you so you're not staring at your notepad taking notes while you should be face to face with your client. Like, brilliant, right? It's a simple thing. what I also wanted to mention, based on what you just said, about like you wouldn't generate AI for like your artwork, for example, of your, of your podcast guests and stuff. Shudderfest. Are you aware of Shudderfest? Yeah. That happens in, so it's coming up in like two weeks or something like that. So every year in St. Louis, the same venue, they have the same event. This is their 10th year. and last year, 2023. So, you know, you go to, you go to a trade show, these large trade shows. They have banners of all the speakers hanging from, um, The ceilings, right? So last year at Shutterfest, every banner, every speaker banner was AI. They took everybody's photos, ran them through AI and every single person, not one was the real photo, every single one was an AI generated thing. And the purpose was AI is a hot topic. Let's get people talking about how crazy these banners look. And it did a job. The whole ShudderFest Facebook group was talking about it wherever you went on the trade show floor people were talking about it People were walking around trying to find their own banners It was just you're talking about like this person looks like a supermodel like this person Looks like a supermodel in real life, but the AI destroyed them Like you know, like it's just uh, it's just so crazy that you know In a good way that that conversation happened at that show and it's just interesting that somebody went through the effort to actually do that and to cause that dialogue to happen. So, I think no matter, you know, whether it's us talking about it, whether it's something like at those events, these are important conversations people have to, so that everybody's thoughts about it are known and discussed. Because, you know, ethics, of course, come into play and, um, there's legal issues that come into play. There's so many different things, so, yeah, I just had to bring that up. I thought it was so interesting last year.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, that's interesting. I had not heard of that because it's like on one hand, it's a conference for photographers, but on by photographers, why would they use AI to do that? But at the same time, I see how that is interesting to start asking those questions and having those conversations because there's no avoiding it. You know, it's going to have to happen, uh, or it's going to happen in so many places. Um, and yeah, I mean, I can tell you from, just personal experience, like having these meeting notes, being taken by AI, like after this is done, it tells me how engaged I was with you. Uh, it tells me like all this information, it gives me like action steps. If. If I were to be like, Oh yeah, I'm going to get you this, or I'm going to, you know, send you this thing. it'll list those things down rather than me having to write them down. And as somebody, doing a podcast, I typically write a lot of notes and I don't know if you've noticed, I've written down zero notes during our podcast today. Um, but normally, if you would have asked me, you know, six months ago, I would have to, I'd have to show you my Facebook or my, my, uh, final cut timelines. I'd have to remove like, Five, 10 seconds at a time where somebody would end what they were saying, just cause I was finishing writing down what I was writing. And then that just is like a weird, break in that conversation again, now to have this tool where we can, focus on doing the things that, that we're good at and what, is our, you know, what we're most creative at is so cool and so exciting. And, um, the idea that imagine can come in and, and do that for us. for photographers, right? Because to me, you're not going to call yourself a photographer. If all you do is edit photos, you're not going to call yourself a photographer. If you are really good at the marketing and the business side, like at that point, photography is what you do. But if you identify as a photographer, everything that helps you do more of that, Should be, you know, praised. We should be like saying, thank you so much for these different types of tools. But at the end of the day, it comes down to realizing the type of, photographer you are. If you enjoy this over that, um, and if these tools are gonna be right for you. Because, they're not right for everybody. As, I could see definitely using this definitely using imagine in my weddings because it's like, I just want to get those out of there. But I do find some personal fulfillment in editing, like my own personal photos of our family. So it's like, I probably wouldn't send those out. so again, it's recognizing the tools and when they're good for you and when they're not good for you. And, the fact that it's available is so exciting, I think, uh, cause it just opens up so many doors for, uh, for photographers. So

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

yeah. And available for anybody in any. Part of their photography journey like right any it's a it is a beautiful thing.

Raymond Hatfield:

I can't think of Many other tools like in photography that are like that like I would say Lightroom probably because like it's good to just get a Jump on it, but like you wouldn't give somebody day one a uh, flagship, you know I don't even know what the latest flagship like mirrorless cameras are but like a 1d X Mark 4 or whatever You know, you wouldn't give them that camera. You would want them to grow into it. But this is a tool that Can grow with you and would only get better with time. So that's super exciting. Scott, we are just at the end of our time today, but I want you to share with me. I think you had mentioned earlier that there might be some more things around the corner. I don't know if you want to share those, but, tell me more about, where we can find out about imagine, but also the workflows podcast.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Sure. yeah. So, um, some of the things coming to imagine, I mentioned one is the support for folders. so that is, by the time this episode airs, it could already be out. Um, and, let's see, we got, culling right now. The way our culling works is that once you, we, once our AI analyzes your culling, your, your photos, And then, um, again, injects everything back into Lightroom. So you all your, all of your ratings would be there, but we have Culling Studio coming, which is an in app culling, um, review feature, which you can fly through super fast. All of the photos that we select, we group them. so you can look at the groupings and swap out what is the keeper, and painlessly move right into editing, right from your selections without having to go between Imagine and Lightroom, just do it all in this one seamless flow. And we also have now the ability to duplicate profiles is out. So that actually came out two days ago. So this, that is definitely out by the time this episode airs. Um, so that feature, basically, if you, have a profile that you love for, for your weddings and you do something that's slightly different for your family photos, for example, you can now duplicate your photos. I mean, sorry, duplicate your profile. rename it then the duplicate to something else to family, for example, and then use our profile adjustments feature to adjust, the profile to, be, you know, different or whatever you need for your family. So you again, you can have as many profiles as you want, and now you can easily duplicate a profile without having to make one from another batch of 3000 or more photos. it's not just some of what is either new or coming and just very, very, very exciting. where you can find Imagine is imagineai. com and we're all over the place as Imagine AI. and we've got a Facebook community is of course that I run. and we have our own podcast, workflows, photography podcast, which. if you're listening to one podcast and you want to hear another, it's a, it's a fun show where we talk about, um, all sorts of photography workflows from a variety of different genres of photographers and, and a bunch of other interesting things. So

Raymond Hatfield:

I gotta say, Scott, you, um, You're one of the people who it's like when, when I see workflows pop up on my podcast player, I'm like, even though today I'm not a professional photographer, like I gave up weddings. I love listening to it because I love hearing the different, one of the things is that like, you don't know what you don't know. Right. And it's like, I feel like I got out of weddings right before I kind of started to take over. And not that everything that people talk about is AI related, but there's been so many conversations of things that like I didn't even know existed. And it's just so interesting to kind of expand your world in that way. And I think for new photographers getting into photography, having exposure to the different things that are available and how other photographers are working and what works for them and what doesn't work for them is so crucial to be able to figure out how to build the right, either hobby or business. For you. And I can't think of literally any other podcast that, that does it the way that you do it. So, I can't, I can't praise it enough and I encourage everybody to go give a listen. So Scott, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate you sharing everything that you did and we're going to have to do this again.

Scott Wyden Kivowitz:

Definitely. It's always fun to chat with you, whether about this or talking shop. I love it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Thank you for tuning into this week's episode of the beginner photography podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with a friend. Start a conversation, grow together. That is it for this week. Remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. for listening to the beginner photography podcast. Keep shooting and we'll see you next week.