How to Turn Struggles Into Photographic Strengths with Brooke Shaden

#454 In today's episode of the podcast, I chat with fine art photographer Brooke Shaden about unlocking your creative potential through symbolism, storytelling, and embracing artistic evolution to transform your photography journey.

THE BIG IDEAS

1. Vision Over Technique: Forge images from your vision; technical skills will follow. Empower your creativity to supersede technical constraints.
2. Artistic Iteration: Learn by doing. Trial, error, and experimentation will refine your art. Fear not the imperfections.
3. Emotional Resonance: Craft stories that touch hearts. Your art has the power to echo universal feelings.
4. Letting Go and Growing: Release your work; focus on the next creation. Your artistic identity expands through detachment.

Resources:
Follow Brooke On Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/brookeshaden/

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Transcript

Brooke Shaden: 0:00

One, I know that I am not as important as I think I am, you know, like my brain is telling me you're so important, everybody's gonna care about this, but I'm not really that important, and the second thing is that people have very small memories, like, if I do a dumb thing, nobody's gonna remember it, if I do a great thing, probably still nobody's going to remember it for that long, like, there's freedom in the eraser that happens in life, you know, So when I released something, yeah, it's a part of me and it meant a lot to me in that moment, but tomorrow I'm going to get up and I'm going to make something else and that's going to mean something to me too. So I can't dwell on yesterday's thing when there's tomorrow to think about. I think that there's just so much more joy and connection when you just let something be and then move on from it.

Raymond Hatfield: 0:43

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield. And today. We are chatting with fine art photographer, Brooke Shaden, about how to start with vision. This episode is brought to you by CloudSpot, the all in one and way better than Google drive solution to deliver and sell your photos online. You can grab a free forever CloudSpot account with 10 gigabytes of photo storage for free over at deliverphotos. com. Now, before we get into today's interview, do yourself a favor and check out Brooke's website. Work. Check out her Instagram. That's probably the easiest way. It's linked in the show notes, but you can also just search for Brooke Shaden Instagram in Google and you'll find it. But I think it's important to get an idea of her work before you hear this conversation. because of the type of photographer she is, there's several layers to her work. And. Well, we just talk about a range of topics, but her images are like, they're portraits, but they're not like smile and say cheese. Her images are kind of surreal. They look like they came out of a dream, but one where like, I don't know, you, try to describe what's going on and it makes no sense, but it also totally checks out at the same time. Like it's really interesting to look at. And Brooke is my definition of like the creative. That I want to be. She's curious. She's not afraid to try something new and she's equally confident in what it is that she wants to say in an image and knows how to do it in a way where her message is going to be received by the viewer. I mean, her work is, it's not only visually stunning, but it is emotionally moving. And I think as a, as an artist, as a photographer, like it doesn't get any better than that. So be sure to stick around to the end of the episode. Also, where I'm going to share with you the three step photography action plan so that you can implement the lessons that you hear from these world class photographers. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Brooke Shaden, Brooke. I just want to know, when did you know that photography was going to start to play an important role in your life?

Brooke Shaden: 2:54

it was an odd situation because I knew it, not at all, and then all at once. Like, it was just like, a switch got flipped because it was like, I was a filmmaker in school and graduated and had, like, no indication that I wasn't going to be a filmmaker. I moved to LA and my whole goal was like, be a cinematographer, or be a director, or be a writer, or something. And then in the, one month of downtime that I had when I left college and moved to Los Angeles, I thought, this is the first time in my now adult life that I don't have a thing to do, or like I didn't have a job, or I didn't have school, and so I picked up a still camera thinking I could just tell the stories that I want to tell in a single image in the meantime, like before I get to my real life, and then it was like that day I remember making a picture, I spent all day on it, and all evening, and like trying to learn photoshop, and trying to learn photography all at once, And then that was it and I just like I didn't want to ever do anything else and I haven't Since then and that was like 15 years ago.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:05

So, you and I have a very similar story I too went to film school for cinematography, but uh Very quickly realized that it's very much a group effort and in that you lose some of that Creativity that, uh, that you

Brooke Shaden: 4:18

exactly why I don't like it anymore. Perfect.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:20

Okay. So, then this is very relatable. So when it came to, photography, visual elements were obviously very important to you, that's why you wanted to get into film. Were you taking any photos, like growing up, was there any indication before you picked up that camera to where photography spoke to you at all?

Brooke Shaden: 4:36

None. I mean, I. I had taken a class in high school that was a film photography class. I only took it because it was supposed to be easy. I was not good at school and I just wanted an easy grade. And I got the worst grade in the class actually. It was a B because they wouldn't even give you lower than a B in that class. And I was just like, I just remember thinking, okay, our assignment is to go take a picture of a tree in the parking lot. And I felt like everybody understood how to do that. And I just. didn't get it. Like I didn't see the vision of it and I was so confused and I did not enjoy it at all. And I remember we did one, sort of like assignment, the whole class, you weren't allowed to take pictures of people. It was all like inanimate objects or landscapes. And so I ended up doing this whole photo shoot where I photographed like people's muscles and then like people were digging their fingers into the people's muscles. It was really weird. And then I printed them and then I photographed the photographs so that it was like a workaround so that I, it was still an object that I photographed. And I just remember my teachers like me, I'm like, what the heck? Like, that's not what we asked you to do. And I, but all I wanted was to take pictures of people. And I felt so discouraged. Like of what photography was supposed to be. And so I just like, that was it for me. And I was like, forget that I'm never doing that again. But at the same time, I took a filmmaking course in high school. It was like a digital imaging, like take your little video camera around type thing. And in that class, they essentially said, do whatever you want. And so I made this really creepy film about my friend who was like going insane in an insane asylum. And she eventually drowns herself in a pool. And that was like the whole one minute movie. And they were like, this is awesome. And then it ended up winning this local film festival for like, just for teenagers, you know, and that was the first time in my life where I thought. Oh, I could be good at something. Like truly, maybe this is for me. So I went to film school and then it was only at the end of college where I was like, this is kind of annoying. Like I, I liked making films when it was just me and my friend and that was it, but not when it's like, like, 50 people on a set and yeah, so then I switched to photography and realized, oh yeah, that could be whatever I want it to be too. Like it doesn't have to be what I thought.

Raymond Hatfield: 6:52

What do you think that disconnect was? Because in, in your photography class, because today, when you say that, you know, the assignment was to go photograph a tree in the parking lot and you felt like everybody knew how to accomplish that assignment, except for you. Why do you think that is? Like today, if you were asked to go photograph a tree, I'm sure that you'd be able to do so with ease. I still couldn't do it. You still couldn't

Brooke Shaden: 7:14

do it? I'm telling you, I really don't think that I could photograph a tree properly right now. Like, and that's the thing is that I don't, this is why I don't really identify as a photographer very much because if you handed me a camera and said, We're gonna go on like a, a photo walk. down the street or something, and you're just gonna photograph what you see. My pictures would be subpar, like, to, to a really extreme degree, I think. And it's not that I don't conceptually understand light and composition and all of that, it's just that I have no interest in taking pictures. Like, that is not my goal. And so when I go out with a camera, it's not like, what do I see? It's what's in my mind, and how can I make that happen in front of my camera? So everything is prearranged in my mind and I know what I want it to look like. So for me, it's like there is photography is not, it's a disconnect for me. It always has been.

Raymond Hatfield: 8:07

Would you say that photography is simply the tool that you use to create?

Brooke Shaden: 8:11

Yes. And I use many tools. I mean, it started out as just a camera and it still is. I mean, I still, largely create with a camera, but I also sculpt and I also, incorporate like painted elements into my work. And, I'm a writer as well. you know, like all of these things, I feel like they're all just tools to serve this larger purpose of these ideas that I've always wanted to make.

Raymond Hatfield: 8:32

Oh, that's so exciting. So, when new photographers start learning how to use their camera, they think, I'm learning photography, but as we know, that's simply learning the tool. It's not until after you know how to use the tool that you can really start to learn photography. So, for you, learning the tool part of it, what was the hardest part for you to grasp to be able to create the images that you wanted to?

Brooke Shaden: 8:56

That's a great question, and I, this is, this really goes back to how I learned photography, because I did not, I had training in, in, you know, like, film cameras, like motion picture film cameras and stuff like that, but not a still camera and not a digital camera per se, and so when I came into it, I knew the basics, like I understood aperture, you know, like I understood ISO, those things I learned in film school, but I didn't know. I didn't understand exactly how to compose for a still photograph, I didn't understand exactly how to light that, and I did not know how to work my camera, so I'll give you a good example of like this, the first day that I started photography, really, was I had this image in my mind of like, okay, if I could make anything in one picture, what would it be? And it was an image where I wanted to I was going to be a self portrait where I was in the picture twice. And so it was like a clone image. And in the picture I was handing a ball of light to my other self. So it was like, I was sort of And the inspiration behind this was that my grandmother used to always say this prayer to me growing up. She would say, if I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take. And I thought, that is terrifying. Like, what a horrifying visual image for me as a child. And so I wanted to turn that into, an image. And so it was me sitting across from myself, handing this ball of light that was my soul to my other self. And so it, when I created that image, I remember thinking like, I don't even know how to. Put this camera on the tripod. I don't know how to trigger it, how to focus it. it was all just guesswork, but because I had this image in my mind, I knew exactly what I wanted it to be. And so I could work backward and deconstruct from there. And I find that that has been the single, Greatest thing that I have had to do in my career is work backward and figure out how to get to that end goal. And I think that a lot of people approach photography from the standpoint of, well, I'm going to learn this camera. Then I'm going to learn how to take some pictures that look decent. Then I'm going to learn how to make those pictures better. And I was working from the standpoint of, I want it to look like this, and I need to do these things in order to get there, and I didn't know what they were, I just had to ask myself, like, okay, I've done this thing, and I think that's going to lead to this next thing, and let's try to learn that next thing, and it took a long time, and, you know, when I say a long time, it actually took almost no time at all, in all honesty, it took a long time for me that day. But, like, I did end up with a picture that day, and I'm proud of it, and it's like, you know, it's the first picture I ever posted to my Flickr site, 15 years ago, you know, and it's still there, and I love that picture, and so I think that, you know, there's, there are definitely two methods of approaching learning photography, and I did it the backwards way, that not, you know, Very many people do, I think.

Raymond Hatfield: 11:43

I don't think it's backwards. I think starting with the end in mind is just not kind of the concept that most people, go for, because, it seems like when you look at step 10, that that's so far away, that how, like, I don't even know, I need to take step 1 before I get to step 2, and definitely before I get to step 10. but I think that your way is, equally valid, if not more so. Than just trying to learn because ultimately, here's the thing that I realized is that, and I realized this when I became a parent, you're never truly ready until you just do it, right? Definitely. And I think that in photography and in any sort of art form, it can be very similar. And I'd love for you to talk to that as well. But like, if you have these ambitious goals and you just go for them and then just figure it out on the way, you're still going to be able to reach something better than, well, let me spend a week, seeing what different. shutter speeds do and then trying to imagine what you can do with those. You know what I mean?

Brooke Shaden: 12:36

Yeah. I mean, I, like, I do not at all suffer from analysis paralysis where some people do where it's like, I don't overthink things. I'm very quick to take action to a fault sometimes, but I'm very quick to just do the thing that needs to be done. And for me, it feels worse to go slowly and try to figure out. Exactly what has to happen than to just try something and fail and then try it again. Like I, I would rather be in motion than in stillness. And so, for me, it's just normal to just plow forward and see what happens. And I found that through my career, whether it's learning photography or being a photographer or having a career. It's just been so much better to take that mindset of done is better than perfect because most people that I meet are so focused on perfect that nothing gets done and I just can't. I can't live by that.

Raymond Hatfield: 13:31

Yeah, that's uh, that's me. So proclaimed right here. Oh yeah, for sure. well I think it's one of those things and I'd love to hear your take on this which is that like um, and I've gotten better at this obviously over the years but it's like when we create something we feel like that came from us and therefore it's a part of us. So when we put it out into the world people are going to comment on this thing that we believe is part of us, and it's hard to separate. Do you feel that way, or is it easy for you to be like, No, no, no, that's just a thing that I made, that's not me.

Brooke Shaden: 14:01

Yeah, it's really easy for me to feel that way. I think that part of it is that Yes, it's a part of me, but it's one small part, and there will be so many more parts that I put out there. And I think that we, two things happen in my brain, which is, one, I know that I am not as important as I think I am. You know, like, my brain is telling me, you're so important, everybody's gonna care about this. But, I'm not really that important. And the second thing is that people have very, you know, Small memories, like if I do a dumb thing, nobody's going to remember it. If I do a great thing, probably still nobody's going to remember it for that long. you know, there's, freedom in the eraser that happens in life where like people's minds get erased, their memories, their, you know, what they, their opinions, all of this can be overwritten. And so when I release something, yeah, it's a part of me and it meant a lot to me in that moment, but tomorrow I'm going to get up and I'm going to make something else. And that's going to mean something to me too. So I can't dwell on. Yesterday's thing when there's tomorrow to think about, you know, like I think that there's just so much more Joy and connection when you just let something be and then move on from it

Raymond Hatfield: 15:03

Do you uh, I mean your following is is quite large you speak you teach people know who you are as a photographer people speak about your images How much weight do you put on anything that is said? Do you just try to ignore it all and just Keep creating or do you take any? I do

Brooke Shaden: 15:19

the opposite. Like I, I try to internalize everything, whether it's negative or positive or neutral. And I think that that's a little bit surprising because. it can be difficult taking negative comments in and, but I think that they're all really valid. my way of approaching art is that if I have made something and I have deemed it releasable, like I can put this on the internet or put it in a gallery, wherever it's going to go, then I need to, Take that word release and really think about what that means. Like, am I still holding on to something about that image that I feel I can't let go of? And if so, then yeah, my feelings are going to get hurt when somebody says they don't like it. But if I can make it and recognize it as this thing that I have created and I have released into the world and I have truly let it go, then it doesn't really matter what people think of it. You know, it's, just this thing that exists and, it's okay if they like it or don't like it. I promise I've had lots of both happen to me, you know, where people are really mad about things I've done and really excited and, and neutral, you know, which I think is even worse. I would rather somebody be angry than feel nothing at what I've done. And so to me, like, I look back at the images that I think are the most successful and they're often the most controversial images that people have sent me death threats over that people have been mad about. And it's like, yeah, but I made you feel something. And that I think is. a really incredible thing to do as an artist.

Raymond Hatfield: 16:39

Oh my goodness. So, um, the ability to tell a story, ability to, communicate a feeling is obviously very important to you, uh, to get somebody to feel something right. And in filmmaking, we do that through a story, through a narrative. Uh, you said that you do writing. That's where you, you know, you do that through a narrative as well. and, Can you talk to me a little bit about how you approach storytelling in your images, which are still and traditionally one off.

Brooke Shaden: 17:06

Yeah. Storytelling is, there's so many ways to approach it. And if we had five hours, like we could still be sitting here at the end of five hours talking about storytelling. So I'll make this as relatable as I can to photography. And I think that photography, photography sometimes suffers with storytelling because It's a very personal medium, whereas if you set out to make a film, for example, you know that there are going to be 20 people giving you their opinions and they're going to adjust the story and, you know, it's going to go through beta testing and stuff like that. With a photograph, you largely have the ability to make it by yourself. Maybe not all the time, but largely. And in that process, it becomes extremely personal to you. You have a story, maybe, you have something that, that meant something, even if it was just, I saw a leaf and it reminded me of somebody, or, you know, like, whatever the story is. And I think that the best thing that I've learned to do is to take this personal story that I have, maybe I'm creating from an experience or an emotion that I've, that I've had, And then to make that really universal. So taking the specific and then widening it to say, how will other people be affected by this? And this is like the most controversial art, um, opinion, which is that some people think if you make art, it has to be just for you, you know, like it has to come from within and all that. And I think that's great if it does. And mine does, you know, like I have these things that I want to say, and it means something to me, but I'm extremely curious about the viewer and impacting their life. And When I look back at my life, I don't want to think, I just made a bunch of stuff for me and then I died. Like, I want to think I made a bunch of stuff for me and then I made that stuff relate to somebody else and it impacted their life positively. And then I died. That'll be fine for me. So, you know, so I'm very interested in the viewer and in their experience of my art and not just my experience of my art.

Raymond Hatfield: 19:08

What does that look like? can you give me an example of a time where you had an idea for something, but you had to make tweaks? Thanks.

Brooke Shaden: 19:58

Yeah, all the, oh, all the time. something that I learned very early on was, I remember I had this teddy bear that I wanted to take a picture of, like, representing childhood, whatever, innocence and stuff. and I did. And I just remember that, like, to me, there was so much meaning in this. Picture where like this, I had this teddy bear. It was really, you know, like from my childhood, whatever, all that, and I released it and it was like this moment of like, oh, nobody's gonna know or care that this. Teddy bear is from my childhood, but a teddy bear represents childhood. So it doesn't matter that it was mine or if I bought it from a store or whatever. And I started to realize that whenever I felt disconnected from people's art, it was often because there were symbols in it or objects or wardrobe or something that I couldn't connect with because that specific thing doesn't mean anything to my life. So I became very aware of how objects specifically relate to other people. So using objects that are universal symbols like a butterfly, for example, being a symbol for metamorphosis or You know, a snake being a symbol for evil or like things like that, that a lot of people could understand. I started to rely on symbolism as a mode of storytelling so that my work, yes, it means something to me, but then how do I visually communicate that to an audience in a way that allows them to understand it too? And I think that that's how we break barriers of languages and countries and things like that.

Raymond Hatfield: 21:25

that is extremely interesting. And I appreciate you, you breaking that down a little bit because, you know, there is a lot of. push to create art that comes from you, that is like fully yourself. And I don't know if I've, I mean, I know that I've seen like a snake in person or whatever, but like, I've never really had encounters with snakes. And I don't know if I would have thought to myself, when creating an image, oh, if I need a, an element of evil, let's use a snake, like let's do things like that. But yet when you say it, It makes sense. It makes sense.

Brooke Shaden: 21:55

Yeah, well, there's you know, there's a great book that uh, well, there are many books In fact, there's one called the dictionary of symbols and it's really fascinating because you can look at you can look up I mean google is also fine for this, you know, Like whatever use whatever you want but I have this book that's really great. It's illustrated and it basically will say like, okay, if you want to use this object, here are all the ways that people might interpret this object. And I find that really interesting because you can start to layer your work in deeper and deeper ways, which is important for me. So like, I have these different layers where, okay, Instagram, let's say, and. People will scroll past it very, very quickly, and something has to catch their eye, and so, like, on a base level, something has to connect to them, where they can understand the image fast. But then, that same image might go to a gallery, where people are going to stand there for minutes on end, just staring at it, thinking about what it means. So there has to be more to discover than just that one thing that caught their eye. And this is where symbolism gets really fun, and tricky sometimes, where you don't want to layer a work with so much symbolism that People look right past it because it's too complicated to take in, but then you do want there to be something else there for them to discover. An example of this, I just recently released an image, of a woman covered in wax and she's sort of holding a whole bunch of pomegranates to, like, her midsection. And this was an image where it's really simple to look at. There's like not a lot going on. There's a woman, there are pomegranates, there's like a kind of a hazy sky in the background, not much else. But then when you really start to look at the details, you wonder like why is she covered in wax? What does that mean? Why is there fruit? What does that mean? Why is she holding it in the way that she is? And it all starts to come together to create a more layered story than what you first think when you see it.

Raymond Hatfield: 23:40

One of the things that I was going to ask you today was, I think at first glance a lot of your images can have this, element of maybe a bit disturbing or unsettling or, eerie, but the longer that you look at it, as you were saying there, it kind of becomes more relatable. And I was going to ask you, like, where do you think that comes from? Because I've looked at, maybe a, a woman with her, ribcage replaced with a, with a birdcage, right? Yes. Her, her torso is a ribcage. And I, I look at this image and I think to myself, yeah, same, you know, like I feel that I feel the same way. And I was going to ask you, why do you think people connect with those images? but that's, that's gotta be the answer, right? Symbolism.

Brooke Shaden: 24:15

Yeah, I think it's symbolism and, you know, it's about understanding that we are not that unique. Mm hmm. You know, we, our experiences. They can be unique, they feel unique, but they're not actually very unique. I was thinking about this a lot, a year ago I attended a writer's conference, and I was in a big class of maybe 30 people or so, we were in this like four day master class, and Most of the people in this class were writing memoirs, and most of the memoirs were about their health experiences, whether it was cancer or, you know, something else, and I remember the people teaching the class saying, like, I understand that this was a monumental experience for you, but Lots of people have had that same experience. So, what are you trying to say about it that's unique that will teach something to somebody else? And that's how I approach my work, too, where I think, okay, I have had experiences that are unique to me, but other people have felt the same way, even if they haven't endured the same experience. And you're going to find that they're doing the exact same exact thing. They know what that feels like. So for example, I create a lot of work about being a foster parent. Now, lots and lots of people are foster parents but not a great many people. Okay, like not, certainly not enough. And so, so knowing that that, experience is a bit unique to me, I have to think then about what is the emotion that I've experienced within that life experience. And, and that is something that everybody can relate to. The feeling of having to say goodbye to somebody that you love, the fear of not knowing what an experience will be like, the, understanding how to love without attachment, for example, all of these things. I can communicate to other people. And so how I approach that particular work that I'm making is by saying, all right, I've had this experience. Not many people will relate to it, but what's the emotion of it? And what do I want people to learn from it? You know, like I don't want this to be gratuitous where I'm just creating work because I think it's cool and you'll think it's cool and you know, like that for me doesn't satisfy the urge of being an artist. So to me, it's saying, well, what is the experience? Okay. For me, it's foster care. What is the emotion? It's learning how to let go. Now, what do I want to teach people? I want to teach people how to love without ownership. That's what I want to teach people. And so how do you do that then? And I do that through symbolism and I do that through this visual language that I've learned that maybe you'll understand if you look at what I'm making.

Raymond Hatfield: 26:39

Okay, so then people are listening right now and they're like, okay, great. I get how you get to that point, right? How do you love without ownership, right? What is that? How does that translate into an image? What is it that you're putting in the image that makes people feel that way?

Brooke Shaden: 26:53

Yeah, and this is a question that I am trying to answer right now, you know? Like and I think that that's the work of an artist is to say How? How many times do I have to fail before you understand what I'm trying to say? So, I'll give you two examples because I've, this is a series that I've, I've been working on for two years. I've started it like four times. I keep throwing all the images away and I, I think I finally got it this year. So, um, so one of the images that I made, I haven't released this yet, but it's a, it's an image where I took every stuffed animal from our kid's room, because we've officially stopped fostering. Just recently and so I took all the stuffed animals of which there were a ton and I basically built like a big pile of them in the middle of my forest outside and I waited until dusk and I lit the pile from above so it's like the spotlight on these stuffed animals and then in the image is me walking forward holding a torch and the idea here is You'll probably think I'm going to torch these stuffed animals, you know, and, and sort of, you know, it's a bit, it's a bit of a dark image, although there's Kermit the frog in there looking really adorable, actually. Yeah. but you know, the image for me is about questioning, um, how we all think that when you have a biological child or you adopt a child, like they're yours forever, like they belong to you for lack of a better word. And yet that's not a guarantee. You know, like things happen, people die, people go away, people end their relationships for a multitude of reasons. And I think that there's a false security in the innocence of childhood. Like this person is, mine and for me. And I don't think that's true. And I think that our love grows when we realize that there will come a time when that relationship will end, whether it's my death, your death, their death, whatever. or something else. And so this image to me represents sort of, like putting our childhood up in flames and recognizing that it's not permanent. And then after that I did an image where I went out to a frozen lake and I got all these, this is, I love this picture, I got all these pool floaty toys, like inner tubes and inflatable swans and stuff, and I spray painted them all white. And, I got in a bathing suit with a, with a swimming cap on and floaties on my arms and I, and I'm just sitting on the ice with all of these sort of like frozen pool toys. And to me, it's sort of the, the freezing of innocence of childhood, like trying to keep that feeling that we know isn't going to last forever. So those are some sort of, sorry, lengthy examples of, how I've been doing this recently, but I think that there is a real challenge to creating an image that speaks to us. to a very difficult topic, you know, and I think that it takes a lot of tweaking and figuring it out and testing with audiences and seeing what works. But at the end of the day, I think, you know, when it works, you know, like I did the series four times and it finally, like, I just, I've been staring at these images for a month now. And I, and I, I love it. Like, I feel like it's going to resonate.

Raymond Hatfield: 29:58

Now that you've gotten to a point to where you do like the images, looking back at that first series of images that you created the first time, what was it about those that maybe didn't? Hit the mark.

Brooke Shaden: 30:09

I'll tell you exactly what it was because I've been, this has been a big topic for me lately. I, I created those images. with this intent in mind that I had to make it very serious. And I think that it's tough when you, when your creativity is your career, because you try to balance how am I going to be perceived? How am I going to advance my career while making the art that I want to make? And there's this tendency. So I'm a conceptual sort of surreal artist, and There is not a lot of room in the serious art world for that type of work. it's a very challenging niche. And the type of work that you see winning lots and lots of awards tends to be, even if it's conceptual, tends to be very photographic in nature. Whereas my work is very surreal and illustrative in nature. And I wanted to create work that would win awards. So my goal was like, take this idea that I really want to create, but then also Try to do it in a way that like those curators that I really want their attention that they'll look at it and be like, Oh, that's a serious artwork. And so I created this work and it was, going to be called broken threads. And what I thought was, I thought I'll do it mixed media. I'm going to create these images that look super photographic, like totally realistic images. And then I'll take the paper that they're printed on and rip them and sew through them. And I was going to do all this stuff. And it just fell flat. I mean, and it might not have. That's the thing, like, if I had moved forward, maybe it would have been great and those curators would have loved it. I have no idea, but I hated it. I looked at it and I was like, this isn't how I enjoy creating. Like, I don't like looking at images like this, so why am I going to make images like this? And so it took a lot of, and this happens with every body of work I've ever created. I think, oh, it has to be this because then people will think it's more important. And then it, and it never works out.

Raymond Hatfield: 32:02

So just so that I'm perfectly clear here, uh, and again, thank you for sharing that example, because that is, uh, what I thought was so interesting there was that, you talked earlier about, like, I do care about what people think, but at the same time, like, I want to create it from within me and here you are creating. A series that in, like you want it to win awards, like you want there to be recognition there for these images and, but at the same time, they weren't good enough for you to put out. So there's this really weird balance. It seems like, or maybe, maybe it's tug of war. Like, tell me how you see this in your head about the, creating work for yourself and creating work for your audience, because those images that you created. You weren't happy with for the intended purpose, but were you just not happy with those images? At all? Is that why you didn't dedicate more time to them? That was a huge question. I apologize.

Brooke Shaden: 32:53

Yeah, no, I think that there is, there was a sense that it was wrong for me. And this is a really challenging thing because part of why I create in new ways sometimes is, I'll take you back to an example. So 12 years ago, I was at a conference and they had all of these, like shooting bays set up where there were like lights and backdrops and models and you could just go and like shoot these different people. And I was so put off by this. I was like, why would anybody want to do that? And no offense to people who want to do that. It's just literally a different type of creating that I am not, that I don't do. And I was so confused. And so I went to this conference every year and every year I was like, I still don't get it. I still don't know what we're doing here. And so a friend was like, well, but like, you haven't even tried you're just standing here being like, that sucks. And you don't even know because you've literally never attempted it before. And so I was like, Well, darn, that was a really good point, and so I picked up my camera and I learned how to use a light, which I was very intimidated by, and that was definitely part of my judgment toward the process of like, I don't want to learn that, I'm not interested in that, but really, I'm just scared of learning new things, so I learned it. I didn't like it in the end, but there was something to be gained from it. And so I never want to get stuck in that mindset where I think I know more than somebody else, or I don't think that there's a technique that can help me. And so part of creating that series that didn't work out was, well, what if I've just never given this a chance? Like, what if I make this and I love it? What if I make this and it's like my new thing that I just never would have thought would be my thing. and that's almost never happened before in that way, but I always gain something from it, and I think that what I gained from that, creating that body of work, I made seven images that I ended up sort of tossing out the window, but what I gained from that was an understanding of what I don't want, which I think is just as important as knowing what you do want, like knowing I've done that, I had that idea, I tried it, it wasn't for me, and then being able to step forward and say, but what could I take from that? From that process that was good and then applying it to what I started doing. And for me, actually going back to the example from 10 years ago is lighting. I ended up just in the last year and a half, maybe working with lights. And that was something I never thought that I would do. And I hated it. And I just was like, so against it. And in that series, I started to, I was using lights and it was the first time that I really got it. And so I took that and I, now I'm using it and now I'm, now it's in my new series.

Raymond Hatfield: 35:30

Is that one of those things where. You realized that there was an element missing from your photos, or why did you get in, why did you decide that now was the time to learn light after all those years of

Brooke Shaden: 35:39

being a dancer? Yeah, I did. I felt like something was missing, and, and I never thought that I would say that. And I still use lights maybe 20 percent of the time, you know, and not a ton. But I started to realize that, There was a certain look that I wanted to achieve and that I could not achieve with natural light, or at least not without a lot of Photoshop that I just wasn't invested in doing. And it's the same way that I learned photography. I had an idea and then I worked backward and Did the thing to make the idea happen and it was the same way where I had this image in my mind and I was like Dang it. I've got to use a light like if I want to do that thing That's how it's got to go. And so I did and I learned and it's been fun

Raymond Hatfield: 36:22

And now would you say that like you love light like is now light is an essential tool for your photography Even though it's not all the time.

Brooke Shaden: 36:29

It's a love hate relationship I mean, I still like I still turn this this light on, and I don't understand what's happening. I'm like, I've set the thing, and then I click, and then it doesn't work, or I click, and then suddenly the power's changed. Like, I don't know what's happening, and it drives me crazy. And this is why, like, I will never be a technical artist, you know? Like, I don't know most of the time what's happening in my camera. I don't know what's happening with that light. I just hope it works, you know? And, uh, And that's not a great way of creating, but when you're a self portrait artist, like, who cares? Nobody's waiting on you, so it can go wrong and you can figure it out. But, um, and there are, you know, there are definitely, I want to learn more. I want it to be easier for me. but it just never is. so light is like a love hate thing. I really enjoy how it's making my images look, but we're struggling together.

Raymond Hatfield: 37:18

The

Brooke Shaden: 37:19

light and I.

Raymond Hatfield: 37:20

I can, uh, I, I feel the same way sometimes, and it's just because, like, now there's just extra gear that, like, you have to move around and bring with you, and it's like, I'm, I try to be very, you know, one camera, one lens, very minimal when I go out and shoot, but it's like, not only that I bring a flash, I also gotta bring a trigger, and a stand, and some sort of modifier, and then I gotta place it, and it just brings so true. I

Brooke Shaden: 37:40

mean, I was out the other day in the snow, um, a couple weeks ago, shooting and I had my light and I had like a ladder and like all this stuff and I was carrying it back to my house and I live on this like massive hill it was really slippery and I slipped and fell on the road and like the light was fine the light didn't fall on me but the ladder did but I was still so mad about the light I was like if only I didn't have that light I bet I wouldn't have fallen on the road and I'm like this is an unhealthy relationship with my light like I'm blaming it for slipping in the road even though the ladder is the thing that fell on top of me so ridiculous

Raymond Hatfield: 38:11

But, you know, sometimes the most toxic of relationships create the most, uh, beautiful of art. So That can

Brooke Shaden: 38:19

be true. So, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 38:21

Do what you want with that, I suppose. But, uh, we touched a little bit there upon Photoshop. You had mentioned it. And for you, I know that editing is a large part of your creative process. And I've heard you say in another interview that for you, the editing process is the most fun. Mhm. For new photographers. I know that they struggle a lot with editing because in, you know, when you take a photo, once you know, you release your, your finger, the photo's technically done. Right. But with editing, there's no pop up that says like, great, like you did it. Congratulations. Your edit is done. There's lots of second guessing. Did you struggle with that as well in the beginning?

Brooke Shaden: 38:58

Not too much, actually. And I think that part of that is because I knew what I wanted it to look like already, so it was almost like everything I did in Photoshop was just trying to get it closer to what my imagination told me it should be. And that's really helpful. if you go in and you think about it ahead of time, and you're like, okay, I know I want a warm image, or I know I want to replace the background, or, you know, like, you have these goals in mind, then you can achieve them. and. If I go into an edit, if I take, this is my worst nightmare. If I take a good picture, I don't know what to do. Like I get it in Photoshop and I'm like, Oh shoot, this kind of looks okay. Like, what am I supposed to do now? I have no idea. So I, you know, for me, it's like. The rougher it is, the more paths forward I see to this end goal, and so, yeah, but I think that it's really helpful to have that in mind. Like, I know where this is supposed to be in the end. And I know that some people won't agree with that, and that's fine. Like, sometimes it's just a process of exploration, just like how people don't enjoy conceptualizing their images before they take them, because they're exploring with their camera. So it's a different method, but it does really help to learn Photoshop, first of all, because you've got this end goal, so you can now deconstruct what tools do I need to achieve that, like, what can I, what do I need to research to figure out how to achieve that. but then it also gives you a greater sense of maybe autonomy in the edit where you're, you know, Thinking, okay, I know what I want, and I can achieve that.

Raymond Hatfield: 40:23

Of course. So then, let me ask you, when you look at your photos from, you know, say 15 years ago, when you look at some of those first photos, visually, you knew exactly what you wanted the photo to look like. Today, visually, you know what you want the photo to look like. What's the biggest change? What has evolved the most? Between those two photographers, the photographer who you are today, and the photographer back then, is there a wince? Or is there a, ah, that's where I was back then, I know so much more now?

Brooke Shaden: 40:54

Yeah, I actually don't feel like I know so much more now. To be quite honest, and I don't, I love those, I love all of my images. I mean, even the ones that are, I have a few images that are so cringey that it's, like, Bye. I still love them, even though my face turns beet red when somebody sees one of them, like, um. Wait, wait, wait,

Raymond Hatfield: 41:13

no, we gotta explore that now. We have to explore that now. Oh, yeah.

Brooke Shaden: 41:16

Okay.

Raymond Hatfield: 41:16

Cringy because it didn't match your vision, or cringy because of the subject matter? Tell me more.

Brooke Shaden: 41:22

No, it totally matched my vision, but yeah, it's just, you know. Like, okay, so there's one picture that, I lovingly call head on stick. It's literally just like a branch where I photoshopped my head onto the end of the branch. Oh, wow. I don't, it's not a good picture. Okay. At the time I was like, I'm doing it. And then I did. and so it exists for that reason. Cause I thought it was good at that time. And so that's why I think that like, for the second part of your question, specifically relating to Photoshop, I've definitely learned certain things that have. made the process slightly easier. But I would argue that I could do almost 95 percent of my process, even today with like three tools in Photoshop. And I've been doing it that way since I started. So even though certain things aren't as polished as I would like back then, like, for example, I use layer masks now where before I use the eraser tool.

Raymond Hatfield: 42:15

Yeah.

Brooke Shaden: 42:16

And I see errors in my previous. It's photos where like I was erasing something and there's no undoing the eraser tool, like you've done it, it's, it's done, and where now I could tweak that and it would be better because of it, but would it be largely different? No, it wouldn't be. I have the same sensibilities that I had then and I feel really lucky, actually, that I, I, Part of it is, like, maybe I should be embarrassed because I haven't evolved as much as maybe I should in Photoshop, but part of me is proud that when I began photography, I had a vision, and I was able to get the images to that point enough that it matched my vision. And so I can say that then and now my images match my vision, you know, which is a good thing.

Raymond Hatfield: 43:00

Yeah, it's good to have that feeling of consistency, for sure. But then, this will be my last question for you. This one's gonna stretch you, hopefully. How do you see your photography evolving then over the next two to three years?

Brooke Shaden: 43:12

I love that question because I think that what I see is, and it's not even just photography, it's, Everything that I do, I feel like an artist's job is to just harness more courage in their life in every capacity. And what I want is Almost to go back to how I created at the beginning of my career, which was that I had nobody to please or nobody looking at it, you know, it was just like the weirdest darkest stuff that I was doing and It just so happened that people did take notice of that and that some people were really positive about it and some were not And I want that feeling back of like I'm going to make something that is going to rock your world. Like, it's gonna be so weird and so out of the box and make you feel so many things. And so I don't have, like, a specific style that I want to embody or a specific concept, necessarily. I just want to make something that surprises me and that might surprise somebody else.

Raymond Hatfield: 44:17

that was beautiful. I think, uh, we all search for that, but, as you said, kind of, it's the artist's mission to, do that in whatever way we see, best. to do so, I suppose. I don't know if that came out right. Brooke, thank you so much for coming on today, answering all these questions, being as open as you have been. I wish that we had more time to talk about all things story. you know, all things light, um, and all these things. Uh, but unfortunately today we don't. So, before I let you leave, can you let listeners know where they can find out more about you and see some of your images online?

Brooke Shaden: 44:51

Yeah, my website is brooke shaden.com. Instagram is at Brooke Shaden. I'm just all over the place, just out there talking to everybody every day.

Raymond Hatfield: 45:02

a big thank you again to Brooke for coming onto the podcast. Before I get into the photography action plan, if you like these larger idea conversations about art, then I encourage you to check out my interview with. Professor of photography and art director Chris Grunder in episode 337, where we explore what is art in photography and how can you get started creating art with your camera? So again, check out that episode. It is episode 337 with Chris Grunder. Now, here is today's photography action plan so that you can start to make progress in your photography from what you hear. Step number one, start with vision. You know, Brooke's approach to photography begins with the end in mind, which, seems so smart, but so hard to, to do. Like, we just don't do it naturally, I think. but, uh, That really emphasizes this power of a clear vision of what it is that you want to create. For her, it meant that, her creativity did not need to be limited by, her technical expertise from the beginning. Because sometimes when you think forward, from zero to finished, you only think about the things that you know, That you can achieve, and then how to work within that. But starting with the end in mind, you have an idea of what this great photo would be, and then you figure out the tools that can be used, what you can learn to get there. You know, you're crafting a story, you're not just snapping a photo. So your exercise here is to write down a story or an emotion that you want to convey in a series of images before even taking your camera out. So just try to sketch out some simple scenes that depict your vision, and really see it. You know, what does the camera see? Where's the light coming from? What is the height of the camera? And then use your camera to replicate that sketch as closely as you can. Focusing on things like emotion and story rather than Step number two is the value of experimentation. I loved Brooke's proactive attitude towards learning through doing, even if she had not done it before. Because, I think as we know, growth comes from trial and error. It's not just, from theory or following rules. So, don't be afraid to mess up. Because, At least in my experience, each mistake truly is a step towards improvement. So the exercise here is to pick a photography technique that you're unfamiliar with, but maybe you've wanted to learn for a long time, like, I don't know, long exposure or macro photography, just spend, you know, a weekend experimenting with it. Don't judge the results. Just focus on, you know, what each attempt teaches you about the process. And number three is the detachment of outcomes. Whoa, this one was hard Brooks philosophy of releasing her work into the world and then just letting go I think is pivotal for new photographers who, you know, mean, I've been there too, as I said, become too attached to their work, you know, and we fear that criticism, because it seems like a failure of ourselves, but by embracing that feedback and moving on to the next project, growth and joy in the process. is found. So your exercise here is to just share a set of photos with the beginner photography podcast community and ask for honest feedback. And then whatever the feedback is. Take it constructively. Let me say that again. Whatever the feedback is, take it constructively. And then immediately start planning your next project using whatever you had learned to improve. So that is your photography action plan for the week. I hope that you can start to take those steps and put them into action so that you can become a better photographer. That is it for this week. Thank you again for tuning into this episode of the beginner photography podcast brought to you by cloud spot, the easiest way to deliver and sell your photos online. You can learn more about cloud spot by heading over to deliver photos. com and remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.

Brooke Shaden: 49:05

Thank you for listening to the beginner photography podcast, keep shooting and we'll see you next week.