The Beginner Photography Podcast

Capturing the True Essence of Nature Photography on the Colorado Trail with Matt Payne

• Raymond Hatfield

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#440 In today's episode of the podcast, I chat with landscape photographer and podcast host Matt Payne about his 35 day 520 mile hike on the Colorado Trail. You'll learn how to capture real, authentic moments in nature. Discover how to differentiate yourself, trust your instincts, and find inspiration without copying others. 

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Be Authentic: Learn how to capture real moments and represent the true experience through your photography.
  • Trust Your Instincts: Embrace your unique style and experiment fearlessly to improve your work.
  • Find Inspiration Everywhere: Look beyond your genre and incorporate elements from other photographers' work without copying them.


Resources:
Follow Matt on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/mattpaynephoto
Listen to Matts Landscape Photography Podcast - https://www.instagram.com/fstopcollaborate
Visit Matts Website - https://www.mattpaynephotography.com/

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Matt Payne:

Most photographers, when they're, first starting out, they're approaching it with, this kind of childlike mind, like they're so excited. They're learning how to use the camera for the first time. And most of the time they're photographing stuff that they find interesting. Right. And then for a lot of people, Somewhere along the way, that childlike curiosity gets crushed by the shoulds and the woulds and the have nots and the social media. And so I think what I often find is that people don't trust their instincts. They're looking at what's popular on Instagram and they're saying, if that's what's popular, then that's what I should go photograph. Also, it doesn't really do much to differentiate you as a photographer in this vast field of things.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hadfield, and today we are chatting with landscape photographer Matt Payne about his epic 35 day, 30 mountain hike across the Colorado Trail, and how He captured amazing images along the way. But first, this episode is brought to you by CloudSpot, the all in one and way better than Google Drive solution to deliver and even sell your photos online. You can grab your free forever CloudSpot account with 10 gigabytes of photo storage over at deliverphotos. com. Now, I love chatting with Matt. He has got such a strong can do attitude and, this trip for him was a culmination of many things coming together, over time. So it was great to hear him talk about that in all of his excitement. And Matt, on top of being a landscape photographer, is the host of the F STOP Collaborate and Listen podcast, where he talks to really interesting landscape photographers about their process. He's also one of the co founders of the Nature First Photography Alliance, and he is one of the organizers of the Natural Landscape Photography Awards, which you're going to hear about in this episode as well. He's a busy dude who loves nature, he loves sharing nature with others Well doing things that I find inspiring and I hope that you will. At the end of the interview I'm gonna share my three biggest takeaways with you So stick around for that so that you can start to take these lessons that you hear on the podcast and turn them into action To become a better photographer today. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into this interview with Matt Payne. Matt you've been on the podcast like a number of times already. So normally I ask like, when did you know that photography was going to be, play an important role in your life, but I think we already know that answer. So, I want you to tell me, about this recent trip that you took that, consisted of more than 500 miles in 30 minutes. This sounds bananas to me, but, when you told me about it, you were super excited. tell me about what this trip was and what you were hoping to get out of it.

Matt Payne:

Yeah, so, for people who are familiar with through hiking, there's a trail here in Colorado called the Colorado Trail. It's considered one of the crown jewels of the three big thru hike trails in the United States. You have the Pacific Coast Trail, and then you have the Appalachian Trail, and then you have the Continental Divide Trail. The Colorado Trail is like a little, it's like, I don't know, a third of the CDT, Continental Divide Trail, and it's considered like the best part of it. And so it's about 500 miles. It goes from Denver to Durango. And I quit my job in June, because I was transitioning into full time photography. And I knew that I would have about two months off in between the two in the transition time. And I was like, man, when am I ever going to have the time available to be able to do something as epic as a 500 mile through hike? And so I started making all these plans way back in April, actually to do it. And, you know, there's a lot of logistics involved. you have to figure out where you're going to get your food, how many days of food you need for different parts of the trail, get all of your gear list specific to that, what you're going to need for that hike. and I knew that I was going to do it as a landscape photographer, which is as the word to use your word bananas, because as you know, camera gear is heavy, right? No kidding. And, so I. Went on this quest to like lighten my photography gear and get all of my other gear as light as I could get it And I ended up with a base weight before a photography gear of just about 15 pounds And then my photography gear added another six pounds and then of course then you add in food and water So like I was ranging Anywhere between 30 and 40 pounds a day on my back. And I was averaging about 18 miles a day. So it took me 35 days to finish the trail, uh, which is about average. I would say for most people that do the Colorado trail, and this is actually how I got my trail name. people name you, people meet, meet you on the trail. There's kind of this fun culture and through hiking and you get a trail name like based on a personality quirk or something weird or strange that happened to you, whatever my trail name is extra credit because, in addition to doing, 500 miles and doing, 17 18 miles a day. I also climbed 30 mountains along the way. So that involves a lot of getting up really early to do these side hikes. It involves deviating off the trail and climbing mountains that were connected via ridges. I added a lot of extra elevation gain that most people don't have on the Colorado trail, but basically, as you know, from my first conversation with you, I was a mountain climber before I was a photographer and that's how I got into photography and, as soon as I decided I was going to do the Colorado trail, I looked on Gaia GPS for where the trail went through and I just started identifying mountains that I've. That would I've always wanted to climb or that were kind of in the proximity of the trail. And I just started making routes of climbing mountains on Gaia GPS for things that were going to be close by to where I was hiking. So, I didn't, I probably identified probably 40 mountains in total that I thought would be. Good targets. And then I ended up doing about 30 of them. Well, exactly 30 of them, but okay.

Raymond Hatfield:

so one, we could, um, go down the psychological, element of doing a trip like this, or we could stay on the photography, aspect of it. And, until I changed the name to the beginner psychological, uh, Psychologist podcast. I think we'll stick with photography. So, 30 mountains. that is awesome. and going on this trip sounds amazing as well. What was your hope from the photography standpoint? Because when I think of going out and shooting landscapes, I think it's very calm. It's relaxing. I can take my time. You know, the mountain's not going anywhere. Just wait for the right light and then take the photo. But when you got 18 miles a day that you have to cover, there's got to be some time pressure on that as well as You know, you don't really have an option to come back a day later if conditions aren't favorable, so let's start with what was it that you were hoping to achieve with your trip?

Matt Payne:

It's an awesome question. So it's funny you said psychological or photography because I found that they're, at least for me, they're inextricably linked together, especially for something like a 500 mile hike where you're trying to take photographs on the way. So I kind of had. Three goals for my, through hike. the first one was just to have an amazing experience in nature with no expectations of what may or may not happen, you know, and have a, you know, put a feather in the cap, so to speak, like something to be proud of when you're 70 year old, 70 years old with your grandkids. And well, I did the Colorado, you know, that kind of thing. You know what I mean? But then the second one was, um, I actually purposely set out with the intent of creating video content while I was on the trail. Oh my gosh,

Raymond Hatfield:

that's just a whole other element, Matt. What are you doing? Oh yeah, man,

Matt Payne:

I'm sorry. But, uh, what I wanted to do was, while I was hiking, because you know you have a lot of downtime and you're, constantly just, you know, thinking and your brain is just, you know, you're, there's no distractions. So your brain is free to be much more creative. Right. And I knew that that was, well, I didn't know, but I had this hope that I was going to have all these great ideas come to me while I was hiking. And so I wanted to do these, I did a video and I ended up doing it. So I did a video every single day and it was basically a recap of what the day was like. And then a philosophical or psychological goal. that I kind of came up with that day, relating to life or relating to photography or relating to relationships or philosophy or exercise, whatever. and so I kind of just strung those together somewhat randomly every day. And then the, extra layer of what I wanted to do with this content and these ideas is that, man, if these are any good, maybe with the photographs I'm taking on the trail and with these concepts that I'm developing, maybe I could write a book, that's full of essays and photographs that are kind of linked with my experience of hiking the Colorado Trail, climbing these mountains along the way. And then these. psychological, revelations, I guess that I, that I had along the way. So, that was my intention. And then I guess I said there was a third thing. And then the third thing was to make some interesting photographs. I did not have specific photographs in mind, like, Oh, I have to be at this place at that time. I was very open to just, you know, while I'm hiking, if I see something that catches my attention, capture it kind of more of a documentary approach to the photography side of things. But, with maybe a fine art twist of, you know, maybe I, for example, I'm hiking through a dark forest. Right at sunrise, and there's wildflowers growing up to the forest floor, just the tips of the wildflowers are getting hit with the first light of day, everything around them and below them is dark. So you have this mysterious kind of ethereal image of a wildflower in a dark forest. So those kind of images I was just kind of keeping my eye out for. And then of course, Especially in the parts of Colorado that I'm more familiar with where in the mountainous areas, I purposely placed myself in those areas for longer periods of time and kind of pre planned out some of my campsites that would be close to some hopefully scenic places that I could Do side trips to take photographs, after I get my campsite set up, let's go to the top of this ridge and photograph this amazing scene. So there was a little bit of pre planning in terms of what I wanted to capture, but mostly I just wanted to have no expectations of and just be reactive as a photographer and see what I could come up with.

Raymond Hatfield:

now that the trip is over and you've put the feather in your hat, tell me about some of the images that you were able to capture. Because if you're not going out and, having this idea in your head, which I think is great because so many times I've gone out with an attempt to shoot and I had expectations for what I wanted. And then I arrived and they were just completely crushed. And that is hard to recover from right away. So going out and just being open and seeing what you could get, looking back at your photos, do you find that there's any sort of. Pattern between them that you found interesting.

Matt Payne:

Yeah. So I just want to touch on one thing you just said, because earlier in my career as a landscape photographer, I was very, planning focused like you're describing, you know, okay, I'm going to get to this location and I know the composition I want to capture and I know exactly what photograph I want to get. And while that approach to photography can yield some really great results, in my experience over the last 15 years is that It can lead to a lot of burnout and failure and, depression. I honestly, because so often it just doesn't happen the way you pre visualize it would happen. And so I've adopted a more of a kind of. put myself in interesting places and be very open minded to discovering and finding images that speak to me and are, catch my attention. And so to answer your question more specifically, I definitely found myself photographing a lot of smaller scenes. for example, hiking on the trail, Oh, look at that fallen tree. That's got this really cool pattern on the wood. That's exposed to the elements. That's a cool photograph. I'll photograph that for a second. Do do do do do. Oh, look, there's a field full of wildflowers and a really beautiful mountain behind it. I'll photograph that. Cool. That's great. Do do do do do. Oh, look at how the light is hitting the sides of that mountain with the trees over there. I can photograph that at a longer focal length. So a lot more kind of intimate, smaller scenes for sure is what I was drawn to. But then I was also, I kind of had a rekindling of my love of the grand scenic images, which I find can be very challenging if you don't have good conditions. A lot of those images are very conditions dependent. And some of the ones that I were. that I got that were really great is because I had fantastic conditions, really amazing light. I put myself in some really interesting places like two, three miles off trail at campsites above tree line where, maybe there's a single 14, 000 foot mountain reflected in this huge lake, scenes like that. I found myself trying to get to and capture. So it kind of ran the full gamut of small scenes, abstracts, details. into my landscapes and grand scenics kind of all together, which was super fun to photograph. So yeah, like basically just whatever I came across that I found

Raymond Hatfield:

interesting, I made a photograph. When it comes to just kind of shooting, like what is right there in front of you, I think what's interesting is that like that to me is the type of photographer I am, like wherever I am. That's where I'm at right and like that's what I'm gonna shoot. You said that there wasn't much pre planning but With your knowledge and skills having shot landscapes for so long like what sorts of things were you? Maybe you wouldn't consider planning But you were still doing whether it be leaving, super early in the day or you not shooting between You know, I don't know, 11 and four or something like that. Like, if somebody else were to go out on a trip like this, like what are kind of some of the basic things that they should just think about to start taking amazing photos?

Matt Payne:

Well, first of all, I think we need to dismiss ourselves of this idea that you can only take good landscape photographs in golden hour. You're right. That was my

Raymond Hatfield:

fault. I apologize. That was just terrible.

Matt Payne:

No, no, it's I mean, to be fair, like, that is are usually when you get some of the most amazing photographs. However, you can also still make some great photographs at any hour of the day. So that'd be my first thing to say to people is, pay attention to the way the light is hitting different subjects. And when you're on a, in a place like the Colorado trail, you know, you're in these valleys, you're in mountainsides, there's lots of different opportunities for, clouds to create interesting light. One of my favorite images that I haven't even processed yet was it was like 11 in the morning, maybe something like that. And I was on this, trail kind of coming down this mountainside in this Valley and across from me was another mountainside with these jagged spires, kind of all in a line. And it just happened to be where the sun was high in the sky behind them, and it was casting a shadow through those, or I guess behind those, pinnacles, and it literally, it looked like a bunch of dragon claws or fangs or, I mean, it had like this very abstract feel to it, and so I was photographing that, 11 in the morning, but I also it Definitely, definitely tried to put myself in some really opportune locations at great times, for example, got up at two in the morning from my campsite one morning to climb to the top of the second highest mountain in Colorado so that I could photograph sunrise at the top, ended up getting to the top, like, 45 minutes before sunrise and it was windy and freezing cold, but got some really incredible images up there, getting, staying up late, going to little vantage points where you might have an interesting composition of a valley and a mountain. a lot of it was just studying the map. understanding where the light was going to be at certain times of the day, having that intimate familiarity with the mountains and how they react to different light, at different times of the day. For me, that was a huge advantage that I went into it with because with that familiarity of subject, I didn't really have to think too much. I just knew like, Oh, if I'm going to be at this part of the, on the map at four o'clock tonight, it's, I'm going to probably want to get myself to this part because it's going to look awesome looking that direction, you know? So a lot of that kind of stuff, just understanding. The topography and how light impacts topography. I think it played a huge role in what influenced where I went.

Raymond Hatfield:

How do you, well, I guess if you're really into landscapes and going out on hikes and shooting, you're probably gonna start learning that stuff on your own. So I'm not going to ask how to read a topography map right here on the podcast. I bet that would be really hard to explain, in an audio, first, platform, but, um, going out. So. when you're out and you're shooting, the first, you have to know that you make it to where you need to go that day. And then, second, or maybe third, second, you probably have to eat. And then third, like, somewhere down that list is photography, even though, like, it's still important to you. How did you know, at the end of your trip, whether or not you captured all the photos that you needed to?

Matt Payne:

So, going back to what I had said earlier, I intentionally did not put that kind of pressure on myself for the trip from a photography perspective. Mostly because I know this about myself that if I go out on a photography trip, whether it be for one day or a week or whatever, if I have preconceived ideas of what I want to capture, I typically will develop a lot of tunnel vision and miss out on a lot of photographs that might end up being some of my favorite photographs of that particular trip. And I made that realization on a photography trip back in 2017, where I had this almost like a shot list for, it was a fall photography trip, which I do every year, but I almost had like a shot list. Like I want to photograph this scene in the morning on that day. And I had all these locations pre planned. And I remember three days into the trip, I was just Literally, I was about to quit photography. I was like, this is so ridiculous. I'm not getting anything. I like, dang it. Mother nature just is not giving me what I expect. Right. And so I was so frustrated that day that I decided to, I just looked at the map and I said, you know, what, Why did I get into photography to begin with? It was because I was hiking and climbing mountains and reacting to scenes that I saw that I thought were beautiful. That's how I got into this to begin with, right? So I'm like, how do I get back to that passion that drove me into photography to begin with? So I found a trail that was like a mile away from where I was at, never hiked it before, didn't know where it goes, started hiking that trail, got to this. Top of this huge plateau and witnessed one of the most ridiculous, Colorado mountain scenes that I've ever seen in my life. I still consider it probably the top three views in Colorado, and I'd never, ever, ever seen anyone else photograph it before. And I studied a lot of scenes in Colorado before, right? It was incredible. And, and it was just a huge reminder to me that some of your best photographs come from just putting yourself in nature. and relying on your intuition to capture photographs that speak to you. and the added benefit of that is that those photographs are more personal to who you are as a person, because that's, you know, you noticed it. It's you were drawn to it for whatever reason, whether it be the light or the color. Or the shapes, or the textures, or the subject matter, whatever it is. And then your job as the photographer is to capture in a way that is interesting for the viewer. So, I went into this whole Colorado Trail thing knowing that I wasn't going to pre plan any of the shot lists. Yeah, I put myself into some really cool spots on purpose, and I intentionally gave myself extra time in the parts of the Colorado Trail that that were more target rich for photography. And I, the areas that I kind of, Didn't think we're going to be as good. I was like, okay, I'm going to hike 24 miles a day,

Raymond Hatfield:

you

Matt Payne:

know, or like my first day I did 20, 28. 7 miles or something like that in my very day one. Yeah. and it wasn't because that part of the state is boring. It's just. Just not as interesting to me as a photographer, although I captured some photographs that I really liked. So for me, it was about understanding who I am as a photographer, what makes me tick, and then just, leaning into it as hard as I could. So I did a lot of that, but it wasn't. super pre calculated or anything like that. It was, again, just reacting and responding to what nature gave me and, and going from there.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. And I mean, you have a lot of experience, like you've been in these situations before. It's not like this was your first time just going out and winging it and hoping for the best. So sometimes I feel like that element gets a little bit lost. so obviously talking about that is, is pretty important, but what I'm really interested in is, as a wedding photographer, I would look at a lot of other wedding photos from other photographers and I could kind of pick out, well, what makes my images different than other photographers as well, right? When you're shooting a lot of the same targets, right, these locations as other photographers, how would you describe your work as being different from other landscape photographers?

Matt Payne:

Well, that's a great question. And, that's part of the, Hopefully the evolution that you go through as a photographer is that you start to pick up on things that differentiate you as a photographer from other photographers. And at the risk of, you know, sounding arrogant or whatever, I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about how to do that. And because early on in my photography career, I spent a lot of time emulating other people. I would look at photographs online and I would say, I want to go photograph that exact same composition. And some people say that can be a good way to learn because you start to understand composition and light and all that kind of stuff. But it also kind of steals the thunder of that original photographer a little bit. If you're just copying that, copying other people ad nauseum. And once I kind of made that connection, I decided, okay, I need my work to be my work. I want it to be a reflection of who I am as a, as an individual. I want it to reflect the things in nature that I'm most interested in, which for me happens to be geology. It happens to be, finding patterns in the chaos of nature. It happens to be, leveraging like really interesting light that isn't necessarily sunrise or sunset. Like maybe it's. But the way that the light's reflecting off of that lake and the subjects that are in the lake makes for an interesting scene. Maybe there's some interesting reflections in the lake. try to, leverage the things that I'm most drawn to in nature. Like if I'm hiking and I say, Whoa, look at that thing. What the heck is that? For me, that's a huge clue that I should make a photograph of that, whatever that thing is. and it might not be a good photograph, right? It might be just planting a seed to a photograph that might be better tomorrow or two days from now that's of a similar subject. But better. So, it's pattern recognition, it's, you plant all these seeds and then you start cultivating them, you start nurse, you know, you start feeding those seeds with water and, and then eventually they grow into better and better versions of what, what was originally, you were originally

Raymond Hatfield:

drawn to. I know that you've, taught workshops before, so like you see other photographers and the things that they shoot. And you see the things that you see. Do you see any sort of like disconnect where other photographers are focusing on the wrong thing? Or is that just a personal preference of what, what you find interesting?

Matt Payne:

Yeah, I know. It's funny because I feel like. Most photographers, when they're first starting out, they're approaching it with, this kind of childlike mind, like they're so excited, they're learning how to use the camera for the first time. And most of the time, they're photographing stuff that they find interesting, right? then for a lot of people, somewhere along the way, that kind of childlike curiosity gets crushed by the shoulds and the woulds and the have nots and the social media. And so I think what I often find is that people, don't trust their instincts. They try to please other people. they're looking at what's popular on Instagram and they're saying, Oh, I should probably do that too. If that's what's popular, then that's what I should go photograph also. And. While that can make you also popular on social media, it doesn't really do much to differentiate you as a photographer in this vast field of things. Now, if you find joy and enjoyment out of that, and it's fun for you to copy what other people are doing, Go for it, right? I don't, you know, knock yourself out. But I offer up that if you go back to what got you into photography to begin with and you photograph the things that you're drawn to without any regard to popularity and fame and fortune and what's popular on social media, I think you're going to find that photography will be a much longer thing that you're engaged in for your life over the course of your life And you're gonna get a lot more long term Enjoyment out of it without experiencing burnout.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's hard That's really hard because a lot of times when you're getting into something you only know what you've seen so almost like switching that part of your brain to say actually Instead of looking for the things that I've seen before, what do I see? And that's really, did you struggle with that as well?

Matt Payne:

I did. in fact, I remember I was on a trip in, I think it was that 2017 trip and I was out photographing with some friends of mine who I hold in very high regard. Some of my favorite photographers who have a very unique and personal vision and then a unique approach to their photographs. Alex Noriega, Sarah Marino, Ron Coscarosa, David Kingo, Jennifer Renwick. And we were just in a truck driving through the country in Colorado in fall. And I told them, I'm like, I just don't see the stuff you guys see. I just, I don't, I don't know how you do it. And they were like, well, What are the things that you notice and why don't you why aren't you spending more time with those subjects? And it just clicked with me. I'm like, yeah, you're right. I see things all the time I think look cool, but I don't spend enough time photographing them So I think if you want to become really unique and different in this crowded field You need to spend a lot of time Experimenting, failing, failure is good. I say fail fast and fail often and learn from those mistakes because the next time you see that subject, you're going to photograph it maybe slightly better or slightly differently and your work's just going to continue to improve. I also encourage, especially new photographers, I encourage you to look at the work of a lot of photographers and Instagram. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Buy some photography books, right? Like, I know we're going to talk a little bit about this, but I run a competition, and we compile the best photographs of over 15, 000 images that are submitted. And we compile the best of the best images that we like the most in a 220 page book. And, um, The course of doing that competition for me has made me a better photographer because I'm just starting to see things in nature that otherwise I would have previously just not paid any attention to. So having a lot of familiarity with a wide array of techniques and subjects, I think is going to make you better and be inspired, but don't copy. Right? I definitely caution people like don't look at an image and say, okay, I'm going to go make an exact replication of that photograph. It's just, you're not going to grow as a photographer if you do that.

Raymond Hatfield:

Can you give me an example of something that you've been inspired by, but you didn't want to copy? Like what's something that you saw maybe in some of the photos that came into this, through the challenge and you thought to yourself, wow, that's amazing. I can use an aspect of this in my own photography.

Matt Payne:

Yeah, I mean one example that comes to mind. she didn't enter our competition, but she's been on my podcast her name is Rachel Talabar. She's a UK photographer and she does a lot of seascapes and I live in Colorado So I never photograph seascapes Yeah, but I do occasionally get the chance to photograph stuff in the coast on occasion Last year, I did a trip out to Oregon, the Oregon coast, to do a workshop out there. And she has a series of images of seashells and really abstract patterns in the water on the beach, kind of just looking straight down. And I've always been captivated by those images because there's a lot of motion conveyed in the images and they're very simple and minimalistic. And what I challenged myself to do was not copy those images, but then try to figure out. Like reverse engineer, how did she create these images? And so I just went out into the beach and just started experimenting with, different shutter speeds, a little bit of intentional camera movement. I mean, I was just trying everything I could to try to figure out how she got those images. And I finally got a few that I was like, Okay. That's how she did it. And that, and it was a lot of fun, right? a lot of frustration too, because, you know, the waves are coming and then they're going and the shells are moving around, but like, that's the fun of, just trying new techniques and, appreciating other people's work and trying to figure out how they captured those photographs.

Raymond Hatfield:

Beautiful. is there anything within that that you're able to use while you were in the mountains?

Matt Payne:

Oh, man, not in the mountains, but yeah, it's just, it's scaffolding. It's, you know, you learn a technique and then you build upon that technique and then you make some mistakes and then you fix those mistakes and then, The important part of growing as a photographer is looking back, looking at your work and figuring out, okay, what worked and what, what could I have done better? And then next time you're in the field, you're going to remember that stuff, right? Hopefully your work continues to improve over time, right?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. that's the goal. I don't know anybody who says, you know what? I hope I can become a worse photographer by this time next year. And if they are, I'd gladly buy some of their camera gear off them. Let's talk more that now that you touched upon it about the Natural Landscape Photography Awards, because, this to me is fascinating. a few years ago, I, reviewed, I think it was, Luminar, like one of the first AI, uh, editing tools, and their big thing was like sky replacement. And I thought, this is so cool. Like it's now so easy to just replace the sky. And so many times on a wedding day, especially here in Indiana, just like there's nothing in the sky. It's just nothing. So unless you're like six feet tall, looking kind of like seven feet tall, looking down on somebody, you're going to get sky in your image. And if that's boring, I'd rather have a, an interesting sky today. This is everywhere. It's all the time it's nonstop. So kind of the idea behind the natural landscape photography awards, like is really interesting to me. So can you share with me what it's about, what your mission is and what it is that you're accomplishing?

Matt Payne:

Man, hopefully you got like six hours here because I'm really passionate about this particular topic. But, uh, Hopefully you can do

Raymond Hatfield:

it in two and a half minutes.

Matt Payne:

Right. Okay. So back in 2020, I partnered up with three other photographers who shared a similar vision that I have in terms of kind of appreciating the more eyewitness tradition of landscape photography and nature photography being, I wouldn't say Documentary, I think documentary gets kind of a bad, you know, leaves people with a bad taste in their mouth because it is after all artwork, right? We're creating art. But I think over the years because of social media, Instagram, and, sites like 500 PX, things like that, people have, gotten this approach of landscape photography where they're constantly just pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing the envelope, right? And what that's turned into is, um, instead of taking the requisite time to actually get a photograph right in the field with amazing light, people are creating it using software and that's all fine and good. You can get some amazing results. However, if you're like me and you I don't know, this is going to sound elitist and I don't mean it to, but if you hold yourself to a standard where you don't want to manipulate your work in that way, because maybe you take pride in the photographs you're capturing actually representing the experience that you witnessed as a photographer, then That type of work, especially as it relates to photography competitions, can become a little bit problematic because it becomes much, much more difficult for someone like me to have any of my photography compete against somebody who is adept at not only replacing skies, but also adding in different foreground elements, stretching and warping mountains to make them look bigger and more magnificent than they actually are in real life. doing perspective blends where you've got a 14 millimeter foreground and you've got a 75 millimeter mountain behind it and you're taking the best of both worlds. You know, all of those different techniques that have kind of come through in the last 10 years to perfect the landscape photograph, people like me in a competition setting. Good luck. You know, you're, you just, there's not as much wow factor, you know, my mountains haven't been stretched, you know, my colors and the light that I photographed are actually real, the photograph you see behind me, which is also the cover of my, book that was real, that I had to get up at, actually, I didn't go to bed that night, but I climbed to the top of that mountain at four in the morning and photographed that sunrise, 14, 000 feet, right? And I've climbed over 250 mountains in Colorado, and I've never seen light like that since, and I'll probably never see it again in my life. And that makes me excited. When I see that photograph, it takes me right back to that experience, right? And that's what I want to convey through my work. I don't want to convey a fantastical kind of make believe fairytale land through my work. I want my work to represent something that me, the photographer, actually witnessed and photographed. And maybe I'm hard headed, whatever, but that's my approach to photography. So anyway, relating to the competition, we found by, analyzing Facebook comments and Facebook posts, how frustrated they were by the fact that those types of images continually win. And we're like, okay, so it sounds like there's a lot of people out there that are like us who wish there was a different platform on a more even playing field where they could get their images showcased to the world. And when you look at the image. You know that that was actually something that that photographer witnessed and captured and it wasn't created in software. And for me, other people, maybe not, but for me, when I look at a landscape photograph and I know that it is actually something that that photographer witnessed, it just makes it that much more special because there was more work that went into creating it. The amount of effort and energy that went into it is probably greater. It required a lot more field craft to get it correct. You know, there's a lot more variables that go into capturing that image. And so we were like, well, let's create this competition and see what happens. So we created the competition and we had over, 15, 000 images submitted in our first year from like 60 countries and yeah, it was huge. And then one of our goals, you know, our goal isn't to make money. in fact, I don't recommend creating a competition if you want to make money, especially the way we're doing it. But, um, then the reason I say that is because we're creating these, books and these aren't just like, Slap together books on like, you know, Bay photo or something like that. These are linen covers with embossed titles and texts and very high quality paper and high production value.

Raymond Hatfield:

Look at that moon right there. Holy cow.

Matt Payne:

I mean, the quality of the photography that's been submitted to our competition is. Ridiculous. If you win any award in the competition, or if one of your photographs is featured in the book, we give you a copy of the book for free. That's just our way of saying, man, we want to celebrate your accomplishments. Congratulations. and what we found through the competition is that these photographers who have kind of they're not noticed on social media as much. They're now starting to get attention. They're now starting to get fans. People are starting to find them as, artists. And, and it's been exciting to be able to elevate the work of these photographers. So it's been an awesome project. You know, our goal is to push photography, landscape photography, push it back in that direction that, was so celebrated by, the founding members of. Group F64, which is like Ansel Adams and, Brett Weston and, all of those photographers who kind of came out of that pictorial movement and they wanted photographs to actually represent scenes that they captured. Right. So that's what we're trying to do with it.

Raymond Hatfield:

What a cool idea to see. a need and a desire for something and then go after it and then see the response being so amazing. I am so happy for you, for doing this because this is something that is needed with all of this new software and with AI like this becomes a big question of what is a photograph when something looks Like a photograph and I've had Shane Bulkowich on the show before talking about, obviously AI's role in photography and how we need to, or we need to come up with a very clear classification on what is a photograph and what is, just digital art. If capturing a photo that is like genuine and pure and like this really happened is so important, this may be just a personal question. Why not? Shoot film.

Matt Payne:

It's funny because I, I'm always telling film photographers, why not shoot digital? Uh, cause to me, film has a lot of limitations, not in terms of what you can and can't do with it in post, but just, you know, the mechanical limitations in terms of cost. When I do a fall color trip for 14 days, I come home with, I don't know, two, three, 4, 000 raw files, right? I mean, there's no, no way I could afford that as a film photographer. That's a lot of film.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. That's a lot of film.

Matt Payne:

Yeah. So for me, it's more of a practical thing. And then also, overcoming some of the limitations of film for a lot of the subjects that I like to capture would be very difficult. You know, like I photograph a lot of trees. If you're using F64 or F32 on a large format, 8 by 10 film camera, good luck getting any of those, leaves in focus, right? Like they're, they're going to be blown in the wind.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, exactly. I know.

Matt Payne:

So, but to your point, I mean, I think film is kind of an interesting medium and actually we have several people enter the competition with just film images. In our first year, the photograph of the year was a film photograph. Um, it is. Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield:

This has been something that I've been exploring lately is that it's interesting cause I had started in photography by shooting on film, not a lot, but I was very familiar with the process. And then once digital came along, it's so enticing, you're able to shoot more as much as you want, you know, all those things. You don't have to carry a hundred rolls of film, but now I've been giving it a lot of thought as far as with AI and with all these software tools. Yeah. I think that there's going to be, there's, at least for me, there's a feeling of knowing that something is real, um, I don't do a lot of manipulations in my photos, and my style of photography could 100 percent lend itself, like, it could work on film, and I have to ask myself that question, how important is real? Me and what, I guess what is real, you know, is real. Something that you can hold. Because if that's the case, no digital image is real. So that can't be the case. So it's, it's coming up with those definitions.

Matt Payne:

I mean, it's funny because I think it's a misconception to say that photographs. are real. We don't see the world at F2, right? Or shutter speed, like we don't see the world in 30 second exposures and, you know, things like that, that, it detracts from reality. And then what we decide to put inside of those four frames, and maybe what's outside of that frame, you know, that completely changes What's real, you could photograph a beautiful scene right next to it as a trash dump, you know I mean, yeah, so I think it's it's not useful to say that a photograph is real I think what's more useful from my perspective is to say that a photograph is reasonably represent an experience or a moment, that actually existed. I think that's a little bit more, I mean, maybe that sounds nuanced. I don't know, but it's funny because back in 2013, 2014, 2015, I did a lot of composites. I created tons and tons and tons of really bad night photography composites and I got really well known for, making those images and what I found for myself, looking back, but also at the time, I never really felt much pride in those photographs, you know, I like, okay, yes, they became popular and actually got into magazines and newspapers and all kinds of stuff with those images. But I look back at those photos and I'm just like, that, It's kind of fake, it's kind of manufactured. It's like, I didn't actually experience any of those moments. And so like, for me, it, it just rings hollow at that point for me. And so what I realized is having those authentic moments or experiences be. represented through my images was important to me, is important not only for the way I felt about my own photographs, but also important for the, how I talk about my photographs with other people and how other people experience them. I get into arguments all the time. with people about this particular subject, and I just recently got into a discussion with someone on discord about it. He's a commercial photographer, does a lot of product shoots for fast food companies, things like that. And he's like, yeah, like I manipulate photographs of burgers and tacos and stuff like that all the time. And I'm like, doesn't that make you feel a little bit disingenuous? Like you're purposely making the photograph, making the, that subject look better than it actually was for the purpose of monetization. And I think that's where I keep coming back to this problem in landscape photography is that I think motive. Matters in terms of what you do with your photographs, I think if you're doing photo montage or creating elaborate composites to convey an artistic idea, and that artistic idea is conveyed through an artist statement, or maybe it's part of a project and that project has a description and, you know, maybe you've got like really huge moons and like funky color landscapes that don't exist, but your project, you mean you're telling the viewer Why you did that, right? it was for a specific artistic purpose, whereas I think 95 percent of the images we see nowadays that have had significant manipulation done to them. It's done purely out of an aesthetic, desire to be seen and to become popular. And that's it. And maybe I'm wrong, but I. I think that's why people do it. or, or there are people like you, like you said, okay, it's a boring sky. I'm photographing a wedding. Maybe someone's on an assignment for a company to photograph a hotel. They want to make that photo look better for the magazine or the hotel company. Okay. I could see that, use case, but if you're saying I'm creating art and you're creating a landscape photograph, And you're presenting it to the world as a landscape photograph. I think we can all agree that everyone kind of assumes when you look at a landscape photograph that it is something that photographer actually saw and witnessed. Yes. And so they're, kind of playing on that, that naive viewpoint of the viewer that that experience actually happened. and they're playing into that and they're, you know, gaining momentum and popularity based on people believing in something that isn't actually something that photographer witnessed. And the way I try to tackle that is trying to encourage people to be more honest in their captioning. So, so many times I see photographs on Instagram or on people's websites that I know have been manipulated. And they use really flowery language about how incredible the experience was and, they're playing into this idea that the viewer is going to be connect to that image because it's something that photographer actually witnessed. They're intentionally playing into that vulnerability that we all have. Yeah. When it's not. When it's not. And I find that to be incredibly disingenuous and unethical is probably the word I would use. And it's, it's rampant. It's. Everywhere. Sure. And people are, people are doing it with AI now, too, you know? People are using AI, they're using Midjourney, they're creating these images, and They don't exist. They don't exist, and then they're putting them out there into the world without any caption whatsoever. And what's ironic is a lot of these people are, before AI, they were known as nature and landscape photographers, and so their audience that they've developed over the years assumes that it's a photograph, and it's not, but they don't say it's not, and again, I just, I personally find that approach to just be You know, it's deceitful.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. I'm right there with ya. I'm right there with ya. Because it's, I think we're just in a very tough spot right now, with the world of imagery. I think, um, because, you know, painters discredited photography for a long time. But it's not that it doesn't have any value, it's just a different thing. And I think that we need to figure out, like, what is that different thing? And we all have to be okay with it. And that's just going to take a lot of time. Because there's plenty of photos that I've seen that are composites that are like, Whoa, that is super cool. I know that that's not cool. You know, and like when you watch, I don't know, Avatar, you know, that, we never went to this, Pandora planet or whatever. But you still say to yourself, like, that was cool. And you allow yourself to be in that for a moment, knowing that it's not cool. But then you watch a, like a documentary And you're like, that was amazing on an entirely different level. And I think once we figure out how we're going to classify these two things, it's going to be easier, but I'm right there with you. The deceitfulness is bad.

Matt Payne:

Have you ever heard of the term splitters and lumpers? No, I

Raymond Hatfield:

haven't. Tell me about it.

Matt Payne:

Yeah. So I think where you stand on this particular subject. greatly depends on whether or not you are a splitter or a lumper. And this actually dates back to like the scientific classification days, like Charles Darwin and stuff where, you know, they're like, okay, this is a bird. Okay, no, it's a subspecies of bird and like in that scientific community, you had people are like, Oh no, it's just, they're all, they're all kind of the same, you know, they're lumping everything together. And I think there's a lot of people who do photo montage and composites and digital art who, present their work as landscape images. They see, they, they all, it's, it's a photo, it's all a photograph. it's artwork. It's an image who cares if you differentiate it. And then there's people like me. I'm very much a splitter because I don't necessarily associate myself with that particular approach to creating artwork. and I don't see what we're doing as being remotely the same,

Raymond Hatfield:

right.

Matt Payne:

And I'm not saying I'm better. I'm just saying it's different, and I think having a way of recognizing that those differences is important to me. Of course, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm gonna have to look more into that. That is a very interesting, concept, but it absolutely makes sense. But before we start an entirely Different podcast on the ethics of AI and manipulation and things like that. we are at the end of our time here, Matt. So I'm going to have to have a back on and we're going to chat about this again, because this is obviously a very, very important topic, but for today. listeners are thinking to themselves, I want to see more of Matt's photos, knowing that it's real stuff. So where can we find you online? And also, don't forget to mention your podcast.

Matt Payne:

Yeah, cool. So, Instagram, Facebook, all those fun places, Matt Payne photo, it's P A Y N E. My podcast, if you like the kind of conversations that we just had, I have similar conversations with photographers relating more specifically to nature and landscape photography, but we know we cover other things like business and marketing and website design and you know, all things photography, but it is more niche to landscape and nature, but it's called F stop, collaborate and listen.

Raymond Hatfield:

One last big thank you to Matt for coming on the podcast and sharing everything that he did. I have three big takeaways. The first one. Is to trust your instincts. here's a quote for you about how, quotes are the worst. It's from, Roman philosopher Seneca, who said it's easier to quote, to rely on the wise words of others, especially when the people you are deferring to are such towering figures. It's harder. and more intimidating to venture out on your own and express your own thoughts. To be the best photographer you can be, the answer is not to copy the works of others, meaning the, you know, quote unquote, towering figures that you see on YouTube. Learn the tools, learn how to use them, then use the information to express yourself. And the message that you want to share. Takeaway number two is to pre plan, but be open. You can't accomplish anything meaningful without a plan. but sometimes a plan does not go according to plan. So, you have to be open. You have to learn to adjust. You wanted a photograph of some amazing animals on your family vacation, but when you showed up, you found that, I don't know, their migration had passed, or, Whatever, you won't be seeing any of those animals, but like, what do you do rather than just wallow in sadness and self pity? readjust, photograph the landscape, photograph the journey that you've taken to get there. maybe just photograph the family. I don't know, but have a plan for sure, but then just be open to change when it happens. And my last big takeaway here is to experiment and learn from the mistakes to develop your own style. We will inevitably miss the mark from time to time, but keep a beginner's mindset. When you try something for the first time, do you expect it to go perfectly? No, you expect to have some room for improvement. You know, otherwise every, first birdhouse would be the best birdhouse you've ever seen. But you adjust and you do it again to get better. Photography is no different. Take the photo, you adjust. You get better. You can't take a photo and not get better without adjusting. This is what I mean when I say at the end of every episode, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Adjust. That is it for this week. Thank you again for tuning into this episode of the beginner photography podcast brought to you by CloudSpot. You can learn more about CloudSpot and sign up for your free account over at DeliverPhotos. com. And remember, the more that you shoot today, I promise you, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Tomorrow. Talk soon. Thank you for listening to the Beginner Photography Podcast. Keep shooting, and we'll see you next week.