The Beginner Photography Podcast

Secrets of the Luxury Wedding Photography Market with Brian Leahy

• Raymond Hatfield

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#450 In today's episode of the podcast, I chat with Brian Leahy, a successful high-end wedding photographer, who emphasizes the importance of building relationships with clients and industry professionals. We discuss the impact of AI, networking, and pivoting to a new photography niche.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Importance of Building Rapport: You'll learn that knowing your clients and industry partners by name can significantly impact your success.
  • Transitioning and Niche Specialization: Discover how pivoting to a new photography niche can be fulfilling and profitable.
  • Networking Impact: We explore how networking can lead to opportunities and provide more value than the quality of your work.
  • Understanding Client Needs: Learn that creativity, while important, may not always be the top priority for clients, especially at high-end events.

Resources:
Visit Brians Wedding Photography Website - https://www.brianleahyphoto.com/
Follow Brian on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/brianleahydestinations/
Brians new Luxury Travel website - https://www.brianleahydestinations.com/home

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Brian Leahy:

You're spending like 20 minutes during the reception, setting up this super creative ring shot with three different lights and a glass, a champagne glass in the front. So you get some crazy foreground and some clients don't care about ring photos at all. We're not crafting them for the clients. We're crafting them for other photographers to impress them. And so you'll see in the photography forums, these photographers are posting like they're behind the scenes of the ring shot that they did. Meanwhile, they've spent 20 minutes not paying attention to what's happening on the dance floor and what's happening over at the bar. And. yes, there are second photographers covering some of that, but like during the reception, that's when all the good stuff happens, that's when all the emotion, that's when all this activity is going on, but you're off in the corner, shooting a ring shot on a table that no one really is going to need..

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hadfield. And today we're chatting with high end luxury wedding photographer, Brian Leahy, who shares the secret of how he went from shooting 400 weddings. To $40,000 weddings. You got that right. This episode is brought to you by Clouds Spot, the all-in-one and way better than Google Drive solution to deliver and sell your photos online and you can grab your free Forever Cloud spot account with 10 gigabytes of photo storage for free over@deliverphotos.com. I had, Brian on the podcast more than six years ago, back in episode 75, which is crazy to think about. And it is one of those episodes that I get feedback from other listeners about just how helpful and open Brian was. So I invited him back on and I mean, he's the exact same person today. You're going to get so much out of this. But Brian shoots high end weddings in one of the most saturated markets for photographers. So if anybody knows about, you know, quote unquote competition, it's him. But as you'll hear, I don't. I think that he would actually call it that. By the end of this interview, you are going to walk away having learned three things. One, how to instantly build rapport with clients, what separates images from high end wedding photographers and weekend warriors, and how to transition specialties to build a business that is a better fit for you. for you while bringing in more money. Now, if you want a masterclass on how to become a high end wedding photographer, this is it. Trust me. And stick around to the end where I'm going to share with you my three biggest takeaways so that you can start to implement what it is that you learn here on the podcast and become a better photographer. photographer. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Brian Leahy. Last time you were on, you shared how you got into photography. so if anybody wants to hear that, they can go back and listen to that episode. but I believe you started with a point and shoot on a trip to Ecuador. And then several years later, you built a name for yourself as a high end wedding photographer in one of the most saturated markets, here in America. But today, Things are obviously changing. So rather than asking you, when did you know photography was going to play an important role in your life? I want to ask you, when did you know that photography was no longer going to play as important of a role in your life as it did?

Brian Leahy:

Yeah, that's a great question. There were two points actually, because after I had built my business in LA to a point that I was very happy, I was shooting more than I wanted to. it kept me very, very busy, but I actually got fairly burnt out in LA because I was working the same venues every weekend. And, you know, years that I shot 30 or 40 weddings, I'd be working at the same venue five, six, seven times a year. And I found it hard to be extra creative and I, I never really considered myself an ultra creative photography. No one's looking at my photos being like, wow, how did he get that photo? My stuff was very classic, very timeless. It wasn't ultra creative. So for me, I didn't go into photography with a super creative brain. And so I really struggled after working at these venues weekend after weekend, trying to find new spots to shoot and new pockets of light. And so I really started to get burnt out in LA. And my ultimate goal was always to combine travel with photography. And I made it a point to really go heavy into destination weddings. And so it took me a good like three, four years to start building my destination wedding business. And that was amazing because. I would never shoot a venue more than once. I was always in a different state or a different country or a different private residence, and I found my photos were better. They were way more creative because these were brand new places that I'd never worked before and walking into. And I was photographing at really amazing places like Banff up in Canada and Jamaica and Italy and all these really, it's hard to take a bad photo when you're going to some of these places. Like I'm not going to the middle of nowhere. So working in locations like that and getting to travel and also getting to spend what was three to seven days with my couples, with my vendor partners, because when you shoot destination, You're not photographing just a single day wedding. You're not working eight hours on a Saturday and you're out. You're shooting rehearsal dinner and welcome party and guys, golf tournament and the brunch on Sunday. So you're shooting for three to six days often. And that was really exciting to me, but about six years of that in seven years of that, I was now at, you know, 14, 15 years of shooting weddings and I just got burnt out, dealing with COVID and two years of what that madness was trying to shoot. And, you know, when you're not allowed to have gatherings was a lot. And coming back into it was amazing because we got to photograph all these really tiny weddings during COVID. So we were shooting weddings with 10, 15, 50 people. And they were almost always incredible weddings. They were intimate. There were a lot more meaningful and more heartfelt. You could see it. And a lot of these clients said, Hey, we're going to throw this, the little wedding now. And as soon as COVID is over, we're going to throw a party. A lot of my clients never threw that party because their wedding itself. Was so good. And so when we started to go back to these big 200, 300, 400 person weddings, all of that kind of magic of the intimacy of a wedding on, in my opinion, kind of got lost again. And it was the same old routine and I just got burnt out on it. And I was like, you know what? My heart's not in it. And I knew because I could tell I was not doing as good of a job for my clients. The photos themselves were still great, but I wasn't giving it a hundred percent. I was that like. 85, 90%. And it was like slowly dropping. And I knew I was like, I got to find something else.

Raymond Hatfield:

I feel that so much. I also stopped shooting weddings and a lot of it was because of COVID as well. I remember I. Was going to a wedding and as I was packing up my car, there was like this hesitation. I almost felt like this, here we go. And then I had to stop myself. Yeah. And be like, wait a second. Why do I feel like, wait?

Brian Leahy:

Yeah. I'm getting paid to be here. This is my job. Like suck it up.

Raymond Hatfield:

Exactly. Well, on top of that, it's like, I built this. I. I did this to myself and why am I feeling this way? And I think that means something. So I too got out of weddings, but let me ask you if it was the intimacy of a small weddings that you truly enjoyed, why not explore just elopements, smaller elopements, destination elopements,

Brian Leahy:

the price point that I had gotten myself into. Wouldn't really allow me to shoot those. So, and I say that in that, you know, after 15 years, I built this really incredible business. My very last wedding was my highest paying wedding. And I'm always open to talk about pricing. So like my very last wedding was almost 40, 000.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow.

Brian Leahy:

And yeah, it was amazing. And I'm like, why am I leaving this? Like, this is ridiculous.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Brian Leahy:

It's yeah. So yeah, this is not an easy thing to leave. but having said that it's when you're in that type of price range, there are very limited clients who are willing to pay that. And I also, I could have dropped my rates to 10, 000 and shot triple the number of weddings, but I also had gotten to a place where I was only shooting, 10 to 12 weddings or 10 to 12 events per year. And so being in that type of price range, there is a very specific type of wedding and client that is hiring you at that level. And so all these weddings, again, were multi day, huge destination, large crowds. And so my price alone kind of kept me from doing those.

Raymond Hatfield:

Then let's go ahead and start there. I know that obviously you transitioned as you just shared out of photography, out of weddings. And I, I really do want to hear more about that. But since this is the beginner photography podcast, I figured, let's go ahead and just start with some questions about your time as a photographer. I'm going to start with a question that everybody has after hearing that right now. Okay. With your last wedding, there being 40, 000, somebody right now is thinking to themselves, I just got paid 400 to shoot a wedding, and it was a thrill. I couldn't believe that I made that much. They can't even fathom getting to 40, 000. So, I'm gonna push ya. I'm gonna push ya real hard right now. Do it. Do it. If you had to write out the five oversimplified steps to go from Weekend Warrior, Two high end wedding photographer in their market. What would those five steps be?

Brian Leahy:

It doesn't even need to be five. It is one step.

Raymond Hatfield:

Let's hear this,

Brian Leahy:

but it's a very long step. The only thing you need to do naturally, your photography is going to get better. and for everyone listening who is charging 400, that's a perfect number you threw out because the very first wedding I ever shot was for 400. I had some family friends call me up. They're like, Hey, we weren't even gonna have a photographer. We'll pay you 400 bucks. Do you wanna come shoot it? I spent like 600 bucks and bought my first flash because I was like, well, I'm shooting inside. I need a flash. I shot weddings for a thousand dollars and $4,000 and $15,000 and 40, so. You can get there. Like it just, it takes time. And so naturally your photography will always continue to improve over the years as you shoot. So I don't need to sit here and tell people go learn how to shoot more. Like you're just going to do that by shooting in order to build your business. You have to network as much as you humanly can. and I say that knowing how well it worked in Los Angeles, which LA has more photographers than literally probably any city in the entire country. Having to compete with that many is really difficult. Your work alone will not make you stand out unless it's something ultra creative But even then it doesn't matter like you're in a sea of Thousands of photographers who knows you matters much more than how well they know your work. And so when I decided to go into weddings full time in L. A., I spent two years and went to every single networking event I could possibly find. And so at the time that was ABC, Association of Bridal Consultants. That was WIPA. That was NACE. That was ILEA. It was all the acronyms, for all of the wedding industry and photography. networking groups. And so not only would I attend all of these, I would volunteer shoot for as many as I possibly could. And within two years, everyone in the LA wedding business knew who I was. I hadn't necessarily worked with any of them, but the funny part is when you go consistently to these things. And people see you constantly, they don't realize what they're saying when they say it, but they're like, Oh my God, you're so busy. We see you everywhere in reality. I'm like, I'm not busy at all. Why do you think I'm at every one of these events? Like if I was busy, I wouldn't be here. and then once you've shot an event for one or two of these people. Especially these networking events, your photos are now getting disseminated to the 50 to a hundred attendees that were there. So your work starts getting around. You eventually pick up small little jobs. I shot for free. I still shoot for free every once in a while. Like, so also don't think that I'm getting paid 40 grand for every gig. I, you will always work for free If it's a good fit, if it's going to be good for the future of your business. and as I started shooting some of these other auxiliary events for some of these planners, because the planners wanted to kind of test me out and they didn't want to test me on a pain client. So they're like, Hey, we've got a little birthday party or we've got, you know, anything. I would show up to these events six months later and planner a would say, Oh my God, Brian just shot this birthday party for me. You should see his work. It's amazing. As she introduces me to her other friends. And so the snowball of that networking works really, really well. It takes a lot of time. there's no quick fix to it. It's not something you can do in a month or six months. This takes years, but having your name out there and people knowing who you are is vastly more important than how good your work is. If your work is good. You're in, but you need to know people and people need to know who you are.

Raymond Hatfield:

that was great. it was succinct, and easy to follow. And what's great is that, you know, there's that phrase that, the simplest things are the hardest, you know? And I think that in a, you know, some people are, Have a hard time just answering the phone. Cause they're like, I don't want to call anybody. Like, I don't know what's going to happen. and me personally, I don't have a problem with talking on the phone, but I struggle with asking others for help. It almost feels like a weakness to me and networking. Seems fine. I can go and I can make friends and chat with people, but would you ask for gigs or would people ask you to shoot things for them? And then side question after that, how do you go from, yes, I just shot this birthday party, but now I just want to focus on weddings, evolving your business.

Brian Leahy:

So I, and I've done a lot of teaching within the wedding space, specifically on marketing and networking. And so my typical policy is I am not a used car salesman. I try and avoid passing out business cards as much as I can, because I would rather collect a business card from somebody and say, Oh, so great meeting you. I ran out of my cards, but I'll make sure I follow up with you and then do follow up with them. but I rarely will ever ask for work. And so for me. Once I've met somebody, I find that building a relationship with them first will naturally lead to work. And so if I meet a planner at one of these events, you know, my, my second year and her work looks really great and she seems super personable and we hit it off as like on a very friendly basis, then eventually we will probably work together. That could be six months from now. That could be six years. I had planner friends who were really close friends of mine. Who didn't hire me for my first 10 years, but it's because perhaps my style of photography was not a good fit for their clients, or perhaps they had another photographer that they almost used exclusively. There's a thousand reasons that people may not hire you. And a lot of time, it's not because they don't like you. It's just because you're not necessarily a good fit for them yet. And so I would spend my time cultivating those relationships first and nine times out of 10, they would eventually lead to. Paid gigs. And, you know, as far as moving from like the birthday party to a 10, 000 wedding. A lot of the time, if you shoot one small thing for a planner and they really like what you do, what they're looking for is not how you shot the event, a lot of the times they're looking for how you interacted with the client, how you interacted with the other vendors, how you interacted with the planner themselves. Were you a diva? Were you super easy to work with? Were you flexible? Were you on top of things? If the weather changed, that's what they're really looking for. Again, your photography doesn't matter that much. Like if it's good, it's good. It doesn't need to be beyond stellar, but how you work with all of those other people on event day is vastly more important. So if a planner sees that you're really good with kids and you're really good with grandma and grandpa at this birthday party, that's They're going to have no hesitation hiring you for a wedding because they know you can handle all these different personality types. And while a wedding is a beast of a thing to shoot, if they see that you're good with people and they like your photography, it will end up naturally leading to them hiring you for bigger, bigger events.

Raymond Hatfield:

I see. So, let's dive a little bit deeper into that because, as I said earlier, sometimes the simplest things are the hardest, right? It's this networking. If it were that easy, quote unquote, if it were that easy, everybody would be doing it, right? So as somebody who has done it, has successfully networked your way to the business that you built, where do you see other photographers struggling? Like, where do you think that it's a struggle for them?

Brian Leahy:

As you move into a higher price level of weddings, 99 percent of your clients will come from Event planners, when you're shooting, when you're in a 3, 000 photography price range, those clients don't have planners. So your referral source also makes a significant difference in how you build your business at a 3, 000 price range. Most of the time, those clients are not going to have an event planner. So they're being referred to you by their friend, by their sister, by their mom. So those are like direct referrals from other photography clients. But once you start to move out of that price range and you start to work with these planners, Planners have a lot of control over who gets hired for these events. And I've worked with hundreds of planners all across the country. And as far as like things that I've seen planners complain about photographers. That's super easy. they're divas. they think they're at the top of the food chain when they're not. The planner is They take too much control over the timeline and don't build in enough time for the video team or they're combative with the video team. Cause again, we work side by side photo video, like we should be collaborative, not combative. But if you're a diva, any amount of attitude planners, like, nah, we don't have time for that. You could be the most amazing photographer. Your photos could be mind blowing, but if they leave that day and they're like, Oh, that photographer was a pain in my. Photographers whining or complaining about not being fed soon enough. It's the little, little stuff like that that makes a huge deal. Other things planners will be like, Meh, we wish he hadn't have done that. Is just taking too much time of the couple. Like the couple is going to get burnt out. They don't want to shoot photos for two hours. As much as we're like in our art and like we need to go create. No, they have a party they got to get back to. And so, you know, working with the planners to ensure that you're running on time and that you're following the timeline and just being really cognizant of all the other moving parts. Because I think photographers tend to get in their own little world at weddings. And they're like, this is about me. And it's like, no, no, it's not your hired help. Yes, you're creative, but there's this weird shift when you start to move up levels. In the photography space, most photographers start and they are creatives and they take beautiful, creative, amazing photos. And I've had this conversation with photographers for for years. They're like, I don't want to move into the luxury space because I want to create my art and my clients right now appreciate my art and I don't want to be just staff, which I get. But also if you want to move up, here's what's crazy about the photography world in the wedding business. The higher end you get, the less creative you need to be and will be because those types of clientele want classic, traditional, modern. They're not looking for ultra creative photos. They're simply not because that type of price level is also third, fourth generation wealthy, and they want the same type of photos that their parents had. And you look at the most creative photographers in the space. Typically who's hiring those unbelievably creative photographers is other creatives. It's other photographers, it's graphic designers, it's people who truly appreciate that level of artistry. But those are also not necessarily the people that are spending twenty, thirty thousand dollars on their photographer. There's this balancing act that has to happen when you transition from, a 5, 000 to 8, 000 photographer to a 15, 000 your art, while you can still create it for yourself is not as important on wedding day because your clients are not looking for it. Does that make sense?

Raymond Hatfield:

It does. No, it absolutely does. And I can think of, other photographers who I've interviewed on the past, or in the past rather, and seeing their work, I've thought to myself. Something similar. Maybe it's just that mindset thing of like you would assume, the higher price point, the more creative it has to be, the more unique. is that something that you figured out by accident? or did you just Because surely at some point as a photographer you do want to level up your skills, but at what point did you say okay? I'm done like I can I can start shooting all these weddings that I want now I'm good

Brian Leahy:

I can definitely tell you when I realize that And this is still a thing and again like no shade to anybody who does any of these things anything I'm saying I've done at some point in the past so Again, like you're mid range photographer, you're spending like 20 minutes during the reception, setting up this super creative ring shot with three different lights and a glass, a champagne glass in the front. So you get some crazy foreground and some clients don't care about ring photos at all. There's not a single client in the history of my weddings that has been like, Hey, these ring photos aren't very creative. Can you like reshoot these? Not a single client. And so we spend a lot of time like crafting these really cool photos. We're not crafting them for the clients. We're crafting them for other photographers to impress them. And so you'll see in the photography forums, these photographers are posting like they're behind the scenes of the ring shot that they did. Meanwhile, they've spent 20 minutes not paying attention to what's happening on the dance floor and what's happening over at the bar. And. yes, there are second photographers covering some of that, but like during the reception, that's when all the good stuff happens, that's when all the emotion, that's when all this activity is going on, but you're off in the corner, shooting a ring shot on a table that no one really is going to need. So you start to not get recognition for these ultra creative photos. And because I also wasn't creative with my portraits, I always was kind of worried that I'm like, I'm not going to get hired for higher end stuff because I'm not that creative. Then I started looking at the top 10 most expensive photographers in the U. S., many of whom are friends of mine now. None of their photos are creative. They're beautiful. They're classic. They're well lit. The exposures are unbelievable. The editing's beautiful. They are not creative photos. Like, if you took the top 10 photographers in the U. S., The most expensive and you put all their work together. Most of it's pretty similar. So I could probably tell the difference between a few of them, but for the most part, they're very classical bridal portraits. They're the family photos are very, very similar. They're not ultra creative. And as I started looking at that, I'm like, all right, those people are charging. 30. To 80, 000 and I can take those same photos they can. So what are they doing differently that I'm not? And that's when it really started to kick in. Oh, who's hiring them for these weddings? Who are the planners they're working with? What are the venues that they're working at often? cause I really looked at them and I was like, if they're doing that and I can take those photos just as well, what am I not doing that they are?

Raymond Hatfield:

Isn't that kind of like a, bruise to the ego there? You're like, Oh man, for sure. For that, for that creative element. And, uh, and then to get to where, you are shooting these 30, 80, 000 weddings, it's, you don't have to utilize the thing that you got into it, much, but just from a, technical standpoint, right, just looking at two images. You said that you looked at a lot of, you know, high end, some of the highest paid, wedding photographers in the country. If you looked at, a photo from them, and you looked at somebody who is a weekend warrior, just from a technical standpoint, do you think that the gap is? What separates the two photos?

Brian Leahy:

Editing style and, or lack of consistent editing style is an immediate kind of red flag of about a new photographer. Like a prime example, I have a old friend of mine. She's getting married in California. She reached out. She's like, Hey, can you look at this guy's work? We're interested in hiring him. He's like 5, 000 price point. His photos were good, but his editing style, you look at his portfolio and there's like eight different editing styles within these photos. And to me, I'm like, Oh, this guy hasn't figured out his editing style yet. You're editing. As important, if not more important than your actual photos, everybody can take the same photo, but if your editing's not consistent, that's a very red flag for me in referring out somebody who's kind of new to the business. So figure out your editing style first, even if you're going to stick with it for like a full year, like you're going to edit the same way for a year versus putting out a portfolio where like, Oh, Well, I like greens a little more this month. And so now your photos are extra green and like, ah, like I'm a little more cool and blue this month. That to me is a, as a problem. The other thing that stands out. And again, this is going to come with, as you build your business, you will also build your kit. There's a huge difference between a 3. 5 and a 1. 2 lens. And so when I very first started. I bought my cheap body, but then I spent really good money on lenses. So I bought a 51. 2. I bought the 8. That gear does make a difference. You don't need to go out and buy all this stuff, but having at least one really nice lens, because, again, you look at the people at the top, they're only using like three different lenses. The camera bodies these days don't matter at all. It does not matter what camera you buy. They're all the same. They're all amazing compared to five years ago. They're beyond, I mean, camera does not matter. Lenses do.

Raymond Hatfield:

Of course, yeah, it always matters until it doesn't matter, right? When you're at that range, you're really competing only against like two or three other photographers who are also some of the best in the country. When you're in that situation, and you're not being, picked because of how creative your photos are, how would you differentiate yourself?

Brian Leahy:

So that's the relationship with the planner really matters. I mean, some planners, especially at the high end may only refer one photographer. They're like, we know our couple really well. We know what they're looking for. We know what their style is. We're only referring Brian. Some planners say we really want Brian to shoot this, but we're also going to give client two other options because we're doing our due diligence. We want to present them with three photographers, see whose style they like a little bit better. So at that point, some of it does come down to photography style a little bit. And then a lot of it comes down to personality. So there are photographers at the high end that are still a little more introverted, a little more quiet. I'm not that I'm, I'm loud. I'm very like interactive. most of my clients tend to be really big partiers. specialize in drunk adults is what I tell people. So that's my kind of crowd. And so. There's nothing, there's not a lot you can do at that point. So if I know I'm competing against my buddy, Dennis, and I know I'm competing against Allen, Dennis has a very specific editing style. Dennis has a very specific shooting style. And the planner for the most part is doing all of the selling for us because the planner knows us well enough to describe how we work. So what's interesting is at the very high end, rarely do you even have an interview or a consultation with those clients. Rarely, like I couldn't even tell you the last time I had a consult with the clients. It's basically like, maybe we'll get on a phone call and just be like, Hey, let's talk about the flow of the weekend. And I'll tell you guys a little bit about myself, but a lot of the time you're kind of getting booked sight unseen. Because the planner's like, great, you're within their price range. I know they're going to love you. And that's it. And they have so many other decisions that they're making for a wedding like that, that if the planner's like, you guys are paying me and trust me, we're bringing in Brian. And that's, that's how it goes. A lot of times at the top end, you may not even meet. I've had weddings at the high end where I have met the couple for the first time on rehearsal night.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my, wow.

Brian Leahy:

do

Raymond Hatfield:

you build a relationship to be able to get them comfortable enough in front of your camera to get the photos that, that you need?

Brian Leahy:

That's what you're getting paid for. No, that is the key question. It takes years of practice. You have to be really good with people. You have to be able to walk into a room. And while I can be loud and boisterous and super interactive when I'm meeting that couple for the first time, I am. A thousand percent professional. I do not drink at weddings except for maybe the very end of the after party on Saturday night. but you just have to walk in, you pay extra special attention to the groom because a lot of the time the bride is, she's the star of the show. and granted, this is different if you're shooting two men or two women or whatever the situation may be, but make sure you're giving both a chance. People as much attention because a lot of times somebody in that group has gotten forgotten a little bit and they're just there because they're like, well, today's the day I'm excited to be here, but I have no idea what's going on and building rapport with both of them. And I'll give you a quick tip. This is one thing I did for years and it impressed people every time and it immediately builds rapport. The one thing you can do that will impress everybody at a wedding is memorize names of. All of the VIPs, not only the bride and groom, but every single parent, every single sibling and the entire wedding party. And you walk in and as you're meeting them, you say, Oh, Steve, thank you so much, or Mr. Smith. It's so great to meet you. Finally. I'm looking forward to meeting your wife, Linda. Knowing people's names is such a secret sauce thing and it's hard to do. Like it takes years. And so typically for like five to seven days before the wedding, I've already sent out questionnaire to the couple or to the planner. And so I have all these names. I will also go into the social media for the couple, if they have it public and go find who all these people are. Bridesmaids are and groomsmen. So I have that face. So when I walk in, I can immediately know, Oh, that's Sally. That's Stacy. That's Stephanie. And just that little people are insanely flattered. If you know their name, especially if they haven't met you before. And so that is the most, it's the easiest way. I want to say easy. It takes years to do, but just that little thing is it. You're now friends and not some random guy that has no idea who you are.

Raymond Hatfield:

I don't even know, where to go from there. Cause that's one of those things you're absolutely right. And it's so simple. It's free. It takes work. But, I mean, remember situations where. I've shot a couple's engagement session. I showed up to the wedding and the parents were like, Raymond, and they'll be excited for me. And it's like, exactly. You were looking at me like, wow, this feels amazing. So doing it for them would feel, similar. And obviously if they're having, If it's their day, if it's their friend's day, that just adds to it. That is great. That is a great tip right there. I want to go, real quickly back to, your images. Cause we talked about the creativity isn't, it doesn't need to be to 11, but for you as a photographer, you do want to do better. I want to know where did you have the most room for improvement? What was Brian Leahy's Achilles's heel

Brian Leahy:

posing.

Raymond Hatfield:

Really?

Brian Leahy:

Yeah. Oh, without a doubt. I mean, I had like my same three go-to poses, We all do. And part of my conversation with my couples is always, you are not hiring me to pose you because if I make you do some weird thing, it's gonna show in your face, you're not gonna like it. my shtick was always listen. you guys are hiring me for my candid photography and how I can get you guys to act naturally in front of my camera without being posy. And so over the years, I transitioned from doing a lot of posing to just being really good conversationalist with them to get them to be natural. And again, building that rapport with the groom, especially if this is a, you know, straight wedding, building that rapport with the groom was super important because he was always the most uncomfortable. And I hate having my photo taken. Like anytime I take my photo with my girlfriend, I make the same silly, awkward faces because I don't have somebody directing me. And so I understand how weird that is. And so for me, I keep it super light, super fun. We tend to move around a lot. And then I started getting better at shooting those like in between moments, in between poses, and it's the little walk and it's the look of them. As soon as I put the camera down and then bring another one back up. Weddings are not just about the couple. They're mostly about all the guests. They're about grandma, who is now 95 and they're just excited for her to be there. They're about the best friends. They only get to see once a year. And so myself and my team, we got hired for all of our candid photography because also their friends can shoot portraits on an iPhone now, and they still look spectacular, right? But wedding guests cannot compete with really beautiful Stellar, candid photography. Your cell phone simply cannot do it and your cell phone can't anticipate when those moments happen. So that's what we were getting hired for. My couple's portraits were fine. Like all, all of my clients were like, Oh my God, these are great. In my head, I'm like, these are not so awesome. Especially always comparing to my friends who are very, very talented. Some of their portrait work is just beyond beautiful. so yeah, that, that was definitely my weakest.

Raymond Hatfield:

That makes sense. I appreciate you sharing that. 'cause I know that that is also a weakness for a lot of new photographers. and to hear that that's not like the most important thing that you have to be wonderful at before you can Mm-Hmm, make any sort of progress as a wedding photographer. I'm sure it's gonna help out, uh, a lot of listeners. Just kind of a side question, now that you're not shooting high in weddings, obviously, but from that perspective. What are your thoughts on the impact that AI is going to have on high end weddings?

Brian Leahy:

Minimal. Minimal. I mean the biggest impact is just on the editing side and the the back end systems for turnaround I mean I started using an AI editing system two years ago I'd never turned back. I was like, why would I ever edit my own photos again? It built a version of me, so it was editing as myself, but when you can turn around an entire wedding in a day, I would do that, but I would never actually deliver it. I would still wait like three to four weeks. So don't deliver your images too soon. Like even if your clients know you're using AI to edit, don't deliver too soon, in my opinion. Send out 40 or 50 teaser images. Great. Keep 'em happy. But wait at least like two, three weeks before you deliver the full gallery. Cause you want them to like kind of marinate, enjoy that wedding. Because if you deliver photos the next day, they're on their honeymoon. Yeah. They're going to look at them, but also like, do you see the beach over there? They're going to go do that instead. it loses the magic. If you deliver too soon, as far as. Other things that AI may impact on the photo side. I honestly don't know. I'd love to hear your opinion on it. I don't think it's going to have any impact at all, because again, we're not getting paid because we know how to use a camera. We're getting paid because we know how to interact with people. And until they have a robot that physically comes in and knows how to interact with grandma and the drunk cousin and a four year old who's. Screaming all over the place until that happens. I don't have any concerns for the luxury photography space

Raymond Hatfield:

or the, the four year old who gets so nervous that everybody's going to look at them before walking down the aisle that they just puke.

Brian Leahy:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I don't, I mean, do you see anything on the horizon

Raymond Hatfield:

that would have an impact? Well, what you said is that your clients are hiring you. For how you interact with them, because you're dealing with people. and I think that that happens at a certain level. And before that, a lot of photographers are being hired because they have a camera, because they know how to use the camera or simply because couples just know that if they're getting married, they need a wedding photographer. And it's just one thing to check off the list. So I will say that having had conversations with people like, um, John Dolan, he talked a lot about how his couples want. That's the most important thing and it's not so much that, you know, cause I had thought about this, as AI was starting to come out and you could take your face and put it on any sort of wedding image, right? And suddenly you can get married in the Bahamas and have never left Indiana. Mm

Brian Leahy:

hmm.

Raymond Hatfield:

But there is an element of this is fake. This is not real. This is and that's fine for some I mean My wife puts on a on a filter on instagram or whatever where she's peeking a rainbow, you know Like that's clearly fake and that's fine for some things. There's always going to be a subset of people who want Well, this is the real thing. This is what really happened. And I have the same feeling as what you had just, said. I don't think that it's going to have much of an impact on a high end market. it's everything in the middle. It's everything in the middle because low end, of course, it's going to be used and it's going to be used often, it's going to have to be relied upon the middle is what's going to be squeezed to one end or the other. And I think as a photographer, you have to choose which side you'd rather be on.

Brian Leahy:

Yeah, and I think, AI will absolutely replace. Not replaced, but have a severe impact on portrait photographers, on newborn photographers, because imagine you're taking a photo of a newborn, you could put it in this beautiful background now that you don't have to spend two hours creating and you can shoot it in a studio instead of shooting outside in the cold or the warm or whatever it is. It's a lot easier for something like that. Whereas I feel like with live events, any events of any sort, but specifically events, it's hard to fake that because. it's movement. It's unpredictable. And even photographers in the middle, I'm trying to think of like how this would impact photographers who are shooting, you know, 40, 000 weddings. I think even for those couples, still, these photos are going to get sent to grandma and grandma's not going to want some photo where she's been AI photoshopped on, on some random background. And so I, I do agree, especially, you know, with Dolan talking about authenticity. Especially with weddings. These are things that are just really hard to fake because everyone will know because everyone was there, you know what I mean? And you've got an audience of a hundred people who are like, wait, what, what is this? They're going to be like, no, where's the photo of me on the dance floor with my boyfriend? You know what I mean? I think. There's opportunity there for certainly like enhancements of what those photos may look like. But yeah, I don't know for for weddings just because it's such a dynamic event that everyone is as a part of and they'll know if like you're delivering all these weird fake. You know, AI images.

Raymond Hatfield:

I remember the first time I was able to swap a sky in one click or do it in batches and think to myself, this really cleans up this boring Indiana sky on this extremely hot day to be more dynamic and interesting. And I think in situations like that, it. You know, nobody's really going to care. But again, if you're getting married in the Bahamas, where, whereas you were just in a, church basement, uh, yeah, it's going to be huge, huge difference that it just, at what point, what are those photos mean, you know? So, well,

Brian Leahy:

yeah. And, to your point, especially about doing sky swaps and background changes and all these things that you can do in Photoshop generative fill. Now, I think those are great. But the issue is going to be, there's not enough education for couples hiring these photographers who are doing a lot of that manipulation, because if you've got this amazing portfolio of 50 stunning images with these beautiful sunsets, and which you don't get 99 percent of the time, I always tell my friends who are starting to look photographers. I said, the best thing you can do is ask for three full galleries. Do not look at their portfolio more than about five minutes. If you're like, these are great. Amazing. Ask to see an entire full wedding and photographers. It is your job and your duty to be sending to these clients a couple full galleries so they know what they're actually hiring. So I think that's where people are going to get themselves in trouble on the low end is because they are building these images, but they're not building enough of them. Or they're only using them for their portfolio without still showing clients what a full gallery really looks like.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Good point. Good point. I always tried to, send a gallery. if I knew that a couple was getting married at a venue that I had shot before, I'd be like, great. I love that place. here's a sample of what it might look like on your wedding day.

Brian Leahy:

Yeah. And listen, I faked a photo, one of my best photos ever. I faked it like. 10 years ago in Photoshop before like AI was even a thing, I had these clients do a dove release and only like four doves came out at a time. So it was like four here. And then like 10 seconds later, another three came out. And so I didn't have one single frame with all these birds. And so I ended up baking it. Like I pulled from like eight different frames and then it looked absolutely beautiful. But again, it was only one frame that I could deliver from what was still like a 10 second first kiss. And I, I told him, I was like, Hey, This is obviously fake when you guys see this. It looked amazing. No one ever knew. But then the 10 images following it had two birds in it. So it's like you're either going to fake them all or you fake none of them.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. I want to talk now about obviously this is a show called The Beginner Photography Podcast. A lot of the photographers listening right now are still new in their journey. They're still fresh. They're excited, to keep learning. Um, but. There is a subset of people who maybe they are at the tail end of their journey. So I want to talk a little bit about the knowing when to move on versus the need to go deeper, because, at one point you said that you got burnt out of shooting all the same locations. So instead of moving on, you went deeper and started doing destinations, but then at the end of that. You decided to move on. where do we start to figure those things out for ourself?

Brian Leahy:

I think you kind of nailed it earlier. When you have that feeling in your gut, always, you always got to trust the gut. Like you, you know, if you're in it, you know, if there's something in the back of your head, that's like, I don't know if I really want to do this anymore. You know, when you show up to a wedding and you're not excited, like. this was an amazing, amazing career. it treated me so well. I had so much fun. I got to work with the most incredible people in the country. I got to travel to amazing places. And so I know some people will be like, I can't believe this guy bailed out after charging, you know, 40, 000, but you also owe your clients like you're being hired as a professional and if you're not giving it a hundred percent, then. You need to, that needs to be a trigger in your brain. Like, why am I not giving this a hundred percent? And if I'm not, is now the time that I need to start looking at other things. Cause like there were a couple of weddings where I know I just phoned it in. we did a great job. Clients were super pumped with the photos, but I knew I was like, Hmm, could have done a little better, could have paid a little more attention, could have been a little more interactive with that family. I didn't memorize all the names. Yeah. for that wedding party. Those things, you have to listen to those things. And so I know there's plenty of photographers that still phone it in because they've been shooting for 20 years. I don't think that's fair if you're charging significant amounts of money.

Raymond Hatfield:

So then, what about the whole, you know, you, you had built such a business. You had made so many connections. You had got into destinations because you like travel. So it's not like you just completely imploded everything and started fresh. You kind of did. But tell me how, I guess how the transition

Brian Leahy:

from, from local to destination.

Raymond Hatfield:

no, not so much more of like what you're doing now with doing a destination and travel coordination is, would that be the right term to use?

Brian Leahy:

yeah, I'm a, I'm a travel agent. Yeah. There's, there's fancier words, but I'm a, I'm a travel agent. Um, it's more

Raymond Hatfield:

than that. Like you're, you're selling yourself real short here.

Brian Leahy:

Yeah, no, we can dive into that for sure. I actually had some friends suggest it. So I had a group during COVID that we did a zoom every Tuesday. It was a core group of really amazing wedding industry. Friends are about seven or eight of us on there. And we were all talking about exits because everyone who's been in the business long enough. Is always talking about how to get out. And I had two of my friends, they're like, well, you've been giving out free travel advice for a decade. Why are you not getting paid for it? And it had never even occurred to me that travel agents were still, in industry or a career that existed. So I started chatting with some friends, found out I've got some friends who are in the business. And kind of just added it as a companion business onto my photography. My plan was, Hey, you I know all these amazing places. I've traveled so many countries in the world. I have clients who are like, Hey, where should we go on our honeymoon? And I was like, I can just add this as an auxiliary business to my photography. So two and a half years ago, my plan was not to retire out of weddings. I was like, maybe this'll be a slow transition and maybe this travel thing will take off. What quickly happened for the first, like seven, eight months. I didn't tell anybody. I just told like three friends and started doing some of their little family vacations. And then they told some of their friends and they told some of their friends. And so started doing this on the side. I only announced to my network 13 months ago that I was adding travel. So November of 2022, I put a video on my Instagram before a big wedding conference that I was attending. I was like, Hey, by the way, I've added travel. I'm still shooting a full season. I'm not retiring. And, uh, pretty much since that video went out, my wedding business Tanked and my travel business took off mostly because I started putting all of my energy into the travel business because to me it was more exciting. It was new. it was a passion of mine for the last 20 years. I love, I live and breathe travel. And so It took two years to finally get out of weddings. But once I started seeing the potential in the travel business, and once I started seeing my photography start to drop off, I was like, now I'm in, I got to commit, this is it. Like, this is now, this is the moment, but it was like, it was a good two year transition to make that happen because my planner saw that I was transitioning or pivoting or whatever you want to call it. And. You have to specialize most photographers when they start out, shoot everything. I shoot nightclubs. I shoot babies, dogs, like bar mitzvahs, weddings, you name it. Birthday parties, everything. And that's great for your first few years. And you absolutely should. It gives you an opportunity to figure out what you're good at, what you enjoy. But by the end of year three or four, you got to figure out what your niche is. And so, because people don't want to hire somebody that doesn't specialize in anything, but It dabbles in all the things. And so I feel like when I started putting out much more travel content, my photography inquiries really just. tanked, which was the plan. I mean, I was very okay with it. I knew that was going to be the case. Whatever you're putting your energy into is what you're going to get. And you can't split your energy between two careers. And it changed from, hey, this is a side hustle thing to, oh, no, this is going to be a career. And that's when it really started to kind of blossom.

Raymond Hatfield:

Do you think that, originally having it as an auxiliary business for your wedding photography and then transitioning just into doing this, Helped you like with clients because it's not like you went from I shoot wedding photography to now I'm a nuclear physicist and these are such different worlds But do you think that you were able to take some of that clientele or networking that you did and help build your business?

Brian Leahy:

A thousand percent. So every part of my travel business is now somehow related to my wedding business. Yeah. So in, in a few ways, like early on, I started booking honeymoons for a few of my photography clients cause they found out I was doing travel and most people don't know a travel agent. There's not that many of us. And so started doing that and then booked some family travels from there. And so because I was already running in a high end. Net worth type of client. Those are also the same clients that are spending a lot of money on travel. So the transition for me was surprisingly smooth because I wasn't starting from scratch within the travel business. There was still a thousand and there still is a thousand things I have to learn, but my client base pretty much just kind of moved over. was lucky enough that travel high end travel and events and weddings are still so closely tied that that transition was really easy. Like you, you're right. If I was like, I'm going to go be. A physicist, or I'm going to go be a psychiatrist. There's not a lot of pull through from one industry to the other, but I just happened to know travel really well. And I'd been doing destination for so many years that that transition was fairly smooth, which I don't know if that's just by luck or it's because I had great friends who were like, Hey, you should do this. Cause you're already doing it. but I, I did luck out that there, was pretty smooth.

Raymond Hatfield:

Well, I think that from having talked to you today, and obviously a few years ago when you were on the podcast, it sounds like one thing that you do well is you listen to yourself and follow your gut, and if, travel is that thing, like, obviously it's been in your life for a long time, you said that your high school graduation gift was a trip, like, and then that's how you got into, uh, Photography. So, um, I think it's, just listening to yourself. So I don't think that it's wild. It's not anything crazy, but, obviously it's set you up for success. And as we were talking about, I think before we recorded, it's easy to see looking back, how you got to where you are, but it's impossible to be somewhere and see what exactly is going to happen in the future. So

Brian Leahy:

I think you also have to listen to the people closest around you. If you're hearing something more than two or three times from people who don't know each other. And I'll kind of tie this all the way back to how I even got into photography. It wasn't my idea. It was a bunch of friends ideas because when I started traveling, came back and I had like three friends who didn't know each other, saw my travel photos from Ecuador and they're like, wow, these are really good. You should get into photography. Had never occurred to me, it was never even a thought. I'd never even picked up a camera before, but I was like, by the third person, I was like, all right, they're not saying this just because they're trying Pump me up. They're like, they, they really like these. So this is what I'm going to at least explore now. And I think being open to those types of possibilities, when you hear things from other people, and that's how I ended up in travel, wasn't my idea. It was a couple of friends were like, Hey, you're already doing this thing really well. It could be a career for you. So whether you're getting into photography or trying to get out, just listen to those people, because if they're saying those things, unprompted, And you're hearing it multiple times. It's at least worth exploring what those possibilities might be.

Raymond Hatfield:

I couldn't have, thought of any better way to wrap up this episode than that, that was, that was motivational and, very exciting. So, Brian, before I let you go. I know that listeners are thinking to themselves, I want to see some of Brian's work. I want to know what he's up to now. Can we see any of your work anywhere now that I think about it? That's a

Brian Leahy:

great question. Uh, yeah. So I've not taken down my photo website so they can find me at Brian Leahy photo and that's L E A H Y Brian Leahy photo. com. I'll probably take it down in like a year. I'm still keeping it up. it's now it's more nostalgic than anything else. otherwise my travel site is Brian Leahy destinations. com and, Brian Leahy destinations on Instagram. I pretty much have no photos left on there either. But if you're looking for travel inspiration, that will absolutely be the best place. I've got some insane travels plan this year. and I love sharing. Everybody always wants to talk about travel. So it's a common denominator that almost all humans share. So if you're looking for some travel inspiration, you can, you can find me on the gram.

Raymond Hatfield:

Huge thank you to Brian for coming on. And like I said earlier, I mean, just being so open and honest with everything that he shared, wonderful conversation. Now, if you liked this conversation about high end wedding photography, then do not miss my interview with John Dolan on how to discover the true essence of telling a story with your camera. That is episode number four hundred and fourteen. Now, I have three big takeaways from this interview with Brian Leahy. The first one. Is how important it is to expand your network, you know? So for you try actively engaging in local wedding industry events. like Brian did, you can volunteer your services as a photographer, you know, work for free, attend workshops and try to build relationships with the people who are there, as you are there more. People will see you more and you start talking to you. You're going to build those relationships. But the first step is that you have to show up. And what a pro tip from Brian on you taking their business card so that you can follow up with them because that put you in control as far as, you know, when you're going to contact them. And it's honestly one less thing for them to have to follow up with. So, that is greatly appreciated for sure. Takeaway number two is to understand your clients. Expectations, clients want to know that you have them covered. So you can be proactive on that and show your potential clients a full gallery of your work to show, consistency and quality of your photography, that you don't just have one or two portfolio where the images, uh, but that you can deliver a full gallery that tells a story and is high quality photography. And obviously remembering names, holy cow. I mean, I can't, overstate this enough, remembering names. Now, know that even though Brian memorizes everybody's name, right away, you don't have to start with that. I know that can be very overwhelming. As he said, it's hard for him as well. but I can tell you that if you just start with, again, if it's a straight wedding, just the maid of honor, and the best man's name, if you get them on your side, I'm telling you, they will do. anything for you. Whatever you need help with, they will absolutely be able to help you with that. Takeaway number three is to embrace authenticity and candid moments. As Brian said, keep in mind that a wedding is all about the guests and that those guests have been invited by the couple. Those guests, the couple want to hang out with their guests on their wedding day, you know? So that is why having candid photos, are so great because they're A candid photo is essentially just a version of our authentic self, and we are our true and authentic self with our friends. And if your friends invite you to their wedding, and then you capture that candid element in a photo, the couple is really going to feel connected to that photo because that is their friend, that is their family member, that is their guest, who, they love, and who they invited, and who they remembered. So, what a great tip on that. That is it for this week. I wanna, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast, which is brought to you by Clouds Spot. It truly is the easiest way to deliver and sell your photos online so you can learn more about Cloud Spot by heading over to deliver photos.com and sign up for a free account. And remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.

Brian Leahy:

Thank you for listening to The Beginner Photography podcast. Keep shooting and we'll see you next week.