The Beginner Photography Podcast

Photography Ethics 101 with Savannah Dodd

• Raymond Hatfield

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#358 On this episode of The Beginner Photography Podcast, the importance of ethical decision-making in photography is explored. Host Raymond Hatfield and guest Savannah Dodd delve into the personal and contextual factors that contribute to ethical decision making, and the impact of sharing a photograph. They discuss the lack of clear-cut ethical guidelines and provide tips for cultivating ethical decision-making skills. Savannah shares her personal experience navigating ethical challenges working with a charity in Uganda and gives advice on photographing ethical subjects. The episode concludes with a challenge for listeners to create their own photographer's statement of ethics.

Savannah Dodd is a passionate photographer who believes in the immense power of photography for good. With her camera, she strives to shape how others see the world in a responsible and conscious way. Through her work, she hopes to inspire others to be more mindful of their power and use it to create a better world.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Consider Intentions: Before taking a photograph, ask yourself why you want to capture the image and what message you want to convey.
  • Question Assumptions: Challenge stereotypes and avoid using individuals as props in your photographs.
  • Awareness and Responsibility: Understand the power of photography and the impact your images can have on others.
  • Ethical Decision-Making: Recognize that ethical choices in photography are highly personal and context-dependent.

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Savannah Dodd:

I wouldn't be doing what I was, what I do if I didn't like photography and didn't believe that it was a good thing. Photography can have immense power for good in the world. When you see a photograph, it shapes how you see the world. And when we're taking and sharing photographs, we're shaping how others see the world. That's power. But if we're not conscious of our power, if we're not responsible with that power, it can also do a lot of damage. More damage than, you know, potentially other mediums could do because of the indexicality of photography, which is that relationship to the truth.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to episode 358 of the beginner photography podcast brought to you by cloud spot. You're all in one solution to deliver and sell your photos. Online, I'm your host Raymond Hatfield. And today we are chatting with Savannah Dodd about the ethics of taking photographs. Now, shout out to John Kenny for introducing me to Savannah's photo ethics podcast. Even though at first I definitely thought, what are you trying to tell me here, John? But what I learned is that ethics really play a, a big part, a major part in photography, yet oftentimes it goes overlooked quite often, you know, and when I was in film school, I kind of saw this because there was this, mindset that everybody had that you could just kind of get away with anything because you are making a movie, you know, and common sense just goes out the window when you get a bunch of people together. Uh, we needed a scene of, I don't know, a fire in a house, or we needed a scene where an actor runs across the freeway, or, we needed a scene where in a dream an actor wakes up in their bed in the middle of a train track. That is actually a true story that had a very tragic ending. not that I was a part of it, but Again, I think it just reaches further than just myself, this is kind of a very common theme, but we as photographers often go about shooting with a, a similar mindset, and I'm guilty of it, but Savannah's Photoethics podcast, you know, which interviews other working photographers, about just ethical decisions that they've had to make, but being a able to look at them objectively really makes you ask yourself in a nonjudgmental way. How much is a photo really worth? And I encourage everybody to give it a listen. And at the end of the episode, actually, Savannah has a challenge for you all to participate in. So stick around to the end. With that, let's go ahead and get on into this episode with Savannah Dodd. Savannah, I start real easy. I just want to know, when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Savannah Dodd:

I started really getting interested in photography When I sort of turned maybe 11 or 12, there was a community, actually, in a small town that I grew up in, there was a community, competition of, for photography for children, and they gave you, you know, disposable camera and you went and collected photographs around the area and, I will never forget being asked to come to the podium in the, it was like the front room at the Walmart and I won first place and it just blew my mind. I was so excited. And I think that that was really my first sort of real feeling that, Ooh, I like this and maybe I'm okay at it. and maybe it's something that, that I. Yeah, I could do. my grandmother, I lived with my grandmother for the first several years of my life, and she's an artist. And so she was always sort of bringing me to try to teach me how to, she does oil portraiture, and she was trying to teach me how to do that, you know, tried to teach me how to use graphites, and I was kind of useless at all.

Raymond Hatfield:

I get it.

Savannah Dodd:

So I think that photography was something that, Yeah, it worked for me.

Raymond Hatfield:

Did you enter that competition knowing that you had some sort of inkling about photography? That you kind of liked it? Or it was totally, this is one of the first times I'm picking up a camera.

Savannah Dodd:

well, my mom had gotten me a camera. I think I just actually may have taken it off of her when I was younger. and my granddad was really into photography. So I, you know, I was around, I had it in my head, but it wasn't really until, it wasn't like I saw that competition and I was like, that's for me. It was just something that I thought would be fun. so yeah, no, that was kind of, yeah, the first, the first introduction, but then I didn't really do very much with it for, I did, I did things here and there, you know, summer, courses or camp or whatever that included photography for a few years, but, um, I didn't really get back into it until halfway through college and I started, shooting sort of family events to try to cover some bills. Of course, college. That's

Raymond Hatfield:

a, that's an easy thing to do. That's how I got into photography as well. My rent wasn't going to pay itself and I needed a little bit extra. so I want to know more about this photo, though, that when you first placed, do you remember it at all?

Savannah Dodd:

Oh, yeah, no, it was a sunrise photo with, Sort of like a barbed wire fence in the foreground and a tree that was silhouetted against the, the sunrise. Yeah. No, I, I remember it very vividly.

Raymond Hatfield:

Do you remember taking that photo?

Savannah Dodd:

I

Raymond Hatfield:

do. Okay. So walk me through, like, when you took the photo, did you know, like, this is going to be really good? Or was it, did it feel a lot more, reactionary? Like, oh, this might be nice.

Savannah Dodd:

I didn't know that necessarily. I don't think I had enough experience to know that, you know, what might work and what wouldn't work. but I thought it was pretty, you know, the sunrise was pretty. And, there are other photographs on that roll of film that I remember too. But, my mom, it was one, I don't know, Saturday or Sunday morning. And my mom gotten up early to drive me around, you know, for this photo competition. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. that is awesome. it's always great to hear of, uh, parents, obviously, helping children with their interests and, uh, and hobbies and stuff like that. that's something that I'm always working on with our kids and I got to say it's, it's hard when you have no interest in whatever that thing is. So like my son is really in, it's not that I don't have any interest, but it's like my son is, he had been into coding for a little bit and I was like, I don't know anything about this. So, but you try to be supportive and, I get that. That is fine. Um, so. that point, you win this competition and you just feel great about yourself. You're like, wow, I took something that other people appreciate and that is nice. and then you said that there was kind of a block of time between then and college when you really started shooting. in that time, were you still, whenever you would take photos, I'm assuming that these were mostly just snapshots. No, no intention behind the photos. Is that right?

Savannah Dodd:

Yeah, a mix. I did like a day camp or something that involved photography and you learned Photoshop and things. I think I did that twice. and, you know, I took things that maybe I thought were more artistic or something. But I also, yeah, got my first, point and shoot digital camera. this was what, the, yeah, 2000, the noughties, you know? So, yeah. don't know how to answer that because it was, I didn't, I guess, no. I didn't really have much intention. I was taking sort of odds and ends here and there that I thought were okay. But I didn't do anything with them. And, I didn't really know what I was, what my objective was behind it.

Raymond Hatfield:

So when did that change for you?

Savannah Dodd:

Ooh, that's a tough question. I think it's been a, sort of an evolving process. Over the past 10 odd years, I didn't study photography in university, just despite the support of, parents, for when I was 12, um, when you're looking at, majors, photography is not something that's over or was not for me something that was overly encouraged. which is a bit of a shame. I do sort of look back on that and regret a little bit that, maybe I hadn't pursued that, more, although. that's a whole nother conversation, isn't it? You know, uh, I won't get into it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Savannah Dodd:

Um, but also, you know, the merits of going to a photography course versus being self taught, you know, but, um, so I went and studied anthropology and I was very aware of visual anthropology, but there wasn't really a course for visual anthropology. That wasn't really a track that I could go down, at the university that I was at. So it was sort of, used photography in my undergraduate thesis, actually, but in a very cursory way, I still didn't, I was using it toward this piece of research, but I didn't really have a, my own understanding of how the photographs were working, why I was using photographs, how do they operate. and then I went on and did my master's in anthropology and sociology of development. So this is a very long response to your question, but hopefully I'll, I'll, I'll get at it, get at the response. And then sort of toward the end of that, again, I started to get more involved or more aware of visual anthropology and sort of all the ways in which photography and anthropology can work so beautifully together in ways that I hadn't really, fully understood, before that point. and I think that really it's that background in anthropology that has led me to sort of an understanding of, yeah, what, what are my objectives? Why am I taking these photographs? What is the potential impact of that? And how can I shape, that impact towards something that is meaningful, um, for the world and for myself?

Raymond Hatfield:

So, today, or I guess, in, I believe it was 2017, is when you founded the Photography Ethics Center. I wanna know, was there an event, was there a moment, was there a photograph that, kinda sparked this idea to, to help educate photographers on the ethics of photography?

Savannah Dodd:

Yeah, absolutely. it's funny. I like to tell it sort of as a story of failure.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah,

Savannah Dodd:

I graduated from that master's program. and I went to work for an NGO in Thailand. So I was living in Switzerland at the time. And so I moved to Thailand for this job. And when I got there, It only took a couple months and I realized this is not a good fit. I had a lot of concerns about the ethics of the organization, the way that things were being run. I raised my concerns and they weren't very interested in what I had to say about it. So it was sort of a, you know, It didn't align with my ethics or, or what I want to do. So, I decided that I had to leave. and that was a super hard decision, because I'd moved across the world for this job and quitting it felt like I'd failed, like I had gone out on a limb, and didn't work out. And I think I. It really affected how I felt about myself. I decided, because at that time my Then he was my boyfriend. Now he's my husband. he had moved over to Thailand as well because I'd gotten this job. So I was like, I dragged him over here. but anyway, he ended up getting it and it didn't work out. Yeah, but he ended up getting a job. So we had to stay in Thailand for three or four more months after I quit. And I had to figure out how I wanted to spend that time because I didn't want to. Just feel sorry for myself. So I decided that at that point that, I really had an opportunity to throw myself into photography in a way that I hadn't previously. I think up until that point, photography was also A hobby or a, and I also, do this sometimes for money, sometimes not, you know, it, it was always just, an addendum to my life. You know, it wasn't. And so I feel like at this point, I realized I've got an opportunity here. I've got time. And so I just started decided to start volunteering at photography galleries and photography festivals in the region. and that was a really amazing experience. You know, I I was having conversations with photographers from all over the world about, lots of things and lots of different types of work. But again, I was fresh out of that master's program. So the ideas that were sort of percolating in my head at that point were about, how do you get consent, you know, how do you get access to these communities? Like, why do you do what you do? You know, I was asking sort of all of these sort of quite probing questions. and I, I don't know if it was always very well received. Um, but what I did find in that was that a lot of photographers That I spoke with weren't prepared to answer the questions because they hadn't really taken the time or given space to think about, well, yeah, what does my consent process look like? And does that make sense for me? Is that effective? Does that work for the type of work that I'm doing? Or, I haven't really, you know, how do I build relationships with people? You know, not only had they not maybe had the time or taken the time to invest in thinking about this, but I realized that anthropology provided me with a really specific set of skills to negotiate those conversations and to negotiate those relationships, And I realized that photographers don't have those skills a lot of times. That's something that I have just because I did that anthropology program. And it, as a consequence, really benefited my photography. But it's not something that's necessarily universal. And so I realized that that's really something that maybe That I could contribute, that I could maybe repackage some of these skills, some of these themes that we talk about in anthropology and make it, applicable and useful for photographers to help them think through the ethics of their practice.

Raymond Hatfield:

I see. Yeah, it's one of those things where, you know, I never think. I'm being unethical with my camera, and I don't know if any photographer, thinks that at the forefront of their mind, but there are a lot of unethical photos taken. So there is kind of that, like, well, what do we do about this? how do we determine what is ethical? What is not? So let's start there. big question, but what, what is ethical photography?

Savannah Dodd:

Well, just want to go back to something that you said there a minute ago about, you know, people don't set out to be unethical, and I think that's such an important point. I think that, sometimes the idea of ethics can be quite scary for people and quite daunting, but I think that's a really important point that, you know, vast majority of sort of unethical photographs that we see, it's not like the photographer set out with bad intentions. It was like, I'm gonna, you know, Do this wrong or I'm going to harm this community. You know, I think it's just a lack of awareness. and that's something that definitely can easily be, you know, worked on and talked about and, through a very vulnerable process, which we can talk about later. But, um, but no, absolutely. So what are photography ethics or what is ethical? first of all, it's really important to say that I absolutely do not sort of, set out to be the arbiter of what is or is not ethical and photography. I think ethics is very personal. I think it's very subjective. And I think it is highly dependent on the context that we're working in. So, I live in Northern Ireland. Now, this is a post conflict society. It is a different cultural, social and political context than where I grew up in St. Louis. So how I approach photographing people. Here will be different from how I photograph or how I approach photographing people in St. Louis. You know, I'll be thinking about my positionality. who am I in this context? in Northern Ireland, I'm, a foreigner, you know, I'm not from here. people I'm viewed differently than, a photographer who is from here. Whereas if I'm photographing in St. Louis, I'm a white woman photographing in a highly segregated city, that's a different positionality, and I have to be thinking about these things as a photographer, so yes, when we're, when we're talking about photography ethics, we're not talking about sort of, a specific set of guidelines or rigid rules or anything like that, because, Rigid. very hard to get a one size fits all answer that when you're in this ethical dilemma, this is the correct response, you know, because we're all individuals were working in different contexts and it's going to change. So, photography ethics is, is something that's, very personal. It's very context specific. and. It really relies on us being able to navigate, I think, or photographers having the skills to make those decisions for themselves.

Raymond Hatfield:

This Is difficult, right? This is what makes this difficult to talk about because if ethics are not a black and white subject and that there's a lot of gray area, and it's, your mission to educate photographers on how to be more ethical, how do you do that? If it's not through, like, direct instructions, shoot here, don't shoot this, don't do that, do this, do you find the best way to, to help educate photographers on, Being more ethical with their camera.

Savannah Dodd:

That's a brilliant question. So I think that there's, 22 components. One is about how we have conversations about ethics and one is about how we cultivate those skills. I guess, maybe 1st to talk about how we cultivate those skills, at our workshops, for example, or in sort of any of the sort of educational courses that we put out. The idea is that the photographer is always going to be the best placed person to make these decisions because they're the ones holding the camera. They're the ones. In the situation, they're the ones who have hopefully developed, such contextual awareness and an understanding of who they're photographing and, and the context that they're working in. So you can't really plan for all of the eventualities, you know, all the variables, but what you can do is you can practice. It's ethical decision making. So we look at a lot of case studies, a lot of examples, and we have really good conversations about, you know, if you were in this position, how might you handle that? And, why would you handle it that way? And what could be the repercussions or the impacts of that decision? And so you, you practice working through all of these things, and we provide a safe space in which you can do that. Because when you're in a situation, you have to make those decisions in a split second. If you don't have practice making those decisions, it's going to be a lot harder. So before you ever get there, we try to help photographers figure out where do I stand on this? How? What feels good for me? What doesn't feel good for me? And I think if you have practice doing that, then when you're actually in the situation, you're much less likely to make a decision that feels antithetical to who you are as a person, you know, because you'll know what your red lines are. you'll have experience of that. And then to talk about these conversations that we have, I think this is a really, really important piece, is that at the Photography Ethics Center, we approach ethics as principles. And the idea behind that is that we can all agree, so you and I could agree that there are certain principles that are important in photography ethics, right? Say we both agree that dignity is important, but what dignity looks like for me when I'm working in Saint Louis or in Northern Ireland might look different from what dignity looks like for you when you're photographing, in Indiana, right?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Savannah Dodd:

or with your, if you're photographing a series with your family, and I'm photographing a series with strangers, how we approach dignity might change slightly, the principle will be there, but how we enact that might look a little bit different, also because we're different people, right? So the idea is that if we start with principles, we can say, right, well, this is what dignity meant for me in that situation. This is how I apply dignity. And then the other person could say, you know, well, for me. I would apply dignity in this way or dignity looks like this because when we when you drill down, I think, to a lot of the sort of unethical photographs, or a lot of just the. Ethical, the contentious ethical issues that we encounter in photography a lot of times, not all the time, but a lot of times it boils down to people are privileging different principles. So, for example, if there is a situation in which, a graphic photograph of someone in a traumatic situation, is shared, right? And some people say that is unethical. That is a violate, that's not okay. Well, a lot of times they're privileging privacy or, yeah, you know, privacy or dignity, whereas maybe the person who shared it, decided that they, you Felt that, accuracy or raising awareness. Um, or things like that were more important in that situation. So a lot of times it isn't that that's ethical and that's unethical. It's that we're privileging different things. And I think that if we can start looking at, you know, Ethics through that lens we can have a lot more productive conversations about ethics because right now I think it can be a very polarizing environment and I don't think that that's constructive or helpful for anybody,

Raymond Hatfield:

right? Does

Savannah Dodd:

that make sense? Did I articulate that? Well,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely And it kind of reminds me of a, um, and this just came off the top of my head. I remember listening to a conversation a while ago, and I believe that it was with, some sort of psychologist, I believe. And they had said that, like, every thought that you may have as a human is totally natural, but acting upon certain thoughts could be harmful. Is where you get into trouble, right? So, as a photographer, or I guess there's that, there's that quote by Ansel Adams, right? Who says, there's two people in every photograph, the photographer and the viewer. Right? And that makes it hard because, as a photographer, we have this desire to, Capture the world in a certain way through our lens that, that we have just through life experience. And now, as we, are, should we be thinking about the viewer? Or are we Is the viewer's opinion on our work, should that be taken into account? Or am I thinking wrong and should we only be focused on the subject of the photo? Does that question make sense?

Savannah Dodd:

Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. Um, ooh, it's just flowing out of my head. Give me two seconds. Of course, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

It's a big question. And that's why this is so difficult. You know, I mean, hard to have these conversations, I think, because there is so much ambiguity involved, and because when it comes to photography, I say this all the time on the podcast is that like, it's so subjective. And what you may like about a photo, others may hate. And, there are some very famous photos that, um, I can't stand. I just think that I don't see the point in them. But others just go crazy for and vice versa. and I think that when it comes to navigating this, is where a lot of people need help because I don't think that it's necessarily, and I guess I just want people to understand and meet up fully understand as well as that. It's not if you do X, Y, and Z, you're good. If you don't do, a, B and C, you're good. Even better or something like that, but it's more, it's more personal and it's not that like we need to be uploading our photos to a spot that says, Oh no, this is ethical. Like you're good to go or not. It's internal. It's not, we're not seeking validation from others on whether or not our photos are ethical. Is that right?

Savannah Dodd:

Totally. And, uh, well, yes. And I think that's probably what makes it so hard is because this whole thing. Is work, it's mental and emotional reflection. There's no easy way out to this. I don't think, you have to invest the time. You have to think about it. You have to, yeah. Consider, you know, what do you want your impact to be? How do you want your photographs to impact the world? this goes to one of the points that I wanted to make. Cause you were talking about, the viewer and do we need to be thinking about the viewer? I do think we need to be thinking about the viewer, but maybe not in the way that you were intending, because I think it all comes back to impact, like, hopefully, if your photographs are seen, not hopefully, definitely, if your photographs are seen by even one person, your photograph is going to have some sort of impact on the world. and I think that if we're not conscious about what kind of impact do I want this photograph to have, I think that we're sort of leaving it to chance, you know, whatever impact it is. Uh, you know, whereas I think if you think much more deliberately about, what kind of impact do I want my photographs to have? I think it's a really important practice, that we could all maybe practice more. Me too, definitely. You know, I think about my Instagram. I don't think that hard about what I share on Instagram. I don't think necessarily about what the impact of those photographs could be. But those photographs on Instagram are just as impactful as the photographs we see in National Geographic. they shape us and they shape the way that we think about the world. and that comes to another point. And then a subsequent point that follows on that, but you know, you're talking about, those judgments that we're making and you said something about, uh, I can't quite remember.

Raymond Hatfield:

Should we focus on their opinion? It

Savannah Dodd:

was, it was about, you know, when, when you have these impulses, you know, you might have an impulse to take a photograph. Right? Yeah. And you might think, oh, that would be a perfect shot. And maybe you take it. But there's a separate decision that's made when you decide to share it. And I think that that's an important point as well. That just because you took a great photograph, doesn't mean it's destined or to be seen, or needs to be seen. And I think that goes back to impact, you know, thinking about if I share this photograph, what kind of impact will that have? will it have any impact? It'll probably, it'll have some impact. It's a bit, you know, thinking very carefully about that. And I guess what I'm talking about impact, I think I should clarify that a little bit. because so when we are looking at photographs, photographs shape, how we see the world. And this, not to get too heavy into theory, but this has a lot to do with the processes through which photographs are made in a traditional sort of analog camera. Right? We understand, you know, if you think about a film camera that there's a chemical reaction between the light bouncing off the subject and hitting the film. Right?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yes.

Savannah Dodd:

And so we think of photographs as having, uh, being rooted in reality in a way that paintings or drawings are not rooted in reality, right? And so when we see photographs, we interpret them as having some sort of connection to the truth of what's out there in the world.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right.

Savannah Dodd:

And I like to think about it as almost data points. So, for example, have you ever been to Ireland?

Raymond Hatfield:

Never.

Savannah Dodd:

Okay. So if I share a photograph. of, a beach in Ireland. If you've never seen a beach in Ireland, that photograph is gonna, contribute to, play a role in how you think about beaches in Ireland, right? Even if you have seen beaches in Ireland, you haven't seen all the beaches in Ireland, you know? So all of these photographs that we take and share add sort of data points to how the viewer thinks about the beach. The world. And so that's why I think it's really important to think about impact because we think about things like all the photographs we've seen in charity communications of maybe children in Sub Saharan Africa. we have so many data points that we can call up when you say that.

Raymond Hatfield:

I've never been to Sub Saharan Africa. I can already see a photo on my head.

Savannah Dodd:

Exactly. Exactly. But then you say, you know, if I were to share a photograph, Of, children in sub Saharan Africa that fit our expectations. What is the impact of that? It's confirming, confirming, our stereotypes are biases. and it doesn't add anything new. so when I'm talking about impact, I'm talking about big impact. Yeah, you know, impact people's recycling impact, you know, Things like that, but also little impact, or not even little impact, it's very insidious impact, but it's maybe not as obvious, of just representation, how we think about people, how we think about places.

Raymond Hatfield:

So, okay, this is, I'm really excited about this because, I feel like we kind of live in a society where everything that we learn, like education, is very much, a tutorial. Like, here's one, two, and three. Whereas, kind of the education that I had, uh, throughout high school was more like, here's some stuff to think about, what do you think about it? And I feel like that's what you're, what, that's what you're giving to me right now. And I haven't, I haven't had this in a while. So this is, this is very exciting. because again, as new photographers, it can be difficult to know. First of all, you just, you just want to go out and shoot things, right? You just want to tell cool stories. And I remember, back in the day when Flickr was like a really, a much bigger and important platform than it is today. I had seen many photo essays or series of photos of homeless people. And I remember thinking to myself, and it comes to find out like it was an assignment from like many colleges, to go out and try to not necessarily find somebody who's homeless, but find somebody who has, an incredible life experience and showcase their story. And people just naturally gravitated towards, homelessness. And in fact, today I was actually on the phone with somebody and I was excited about this conversation. So I kind of, talked about this a bit and I brought up this, you know, How there was a lot of photos of homeless people. And I said this, uh, study about or not studying rather assignment from universities. And the first thing that he came up with was homeless people. Right. So there's something within us that says these people have a lot of life experience, something that maybe we've never been through or maybe never will go through. And that's just where we go. But there are many ethical challenges within this as well. So, this may be really deep, but can you kind of talk about like, why do we naturally gravitate towards these certain things? And maybe why we should question it before we go out there with a camera. That's a huge question. I

Savannah Dodd:

apologize. No, it's a really good question. I actually have an example that I think will speak to this. So, part of the reason why I brought up the example of Sub Saharan Africa is because, I was photographing for a charity in, rural Southern Uganda, and I encountered, an interesting situation that, was a challenge to navigate, you know, the ethics of it, because I was walking around, uh, very, very small village with a community health worker who, is Ugandan herself. And. I had my camera because I was photographing for, you know, the charities communications and things. And, we come up to house and there were two children. Who were seated, playing on the ground, they weren't wearing shoes, they had dust on their clothes and they were sitting under banana leaves. And the health worker says to me, Oh, there's your photograph. You have to take that photo. You know, that's, that's what you need. Right. and I thought this is not the type of photograph I want to take, but I also didn't want. I wanted to value her role as expert of the community, you know, I didn't want to make her feel bad by saying, no, that's not the photograph I want or by not taking the photograph I want it, you know, she was trying to help me. Um, so I took the photograph. I got consent from the parents, but I've never showed it because we do expect that, we expect that to be the winning photograph. That is the good photograph that we've seen.

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure.

Savannah Dodd:

We've seen all these photographs, dramatic photographs, maybe of people experiencing homelessness, dramatic photographs, and we think. if I'm going to take a good photograph, well, that's the photograph I have to take because that's what a good photograph is, because that's what we've seen when so I think that a lot of times we're replicating these expectations of what we think good photography is what we think is meaningful photography is. and a lot of times those expectations are very wrapped up with stereotyping and assumptions and tropes, and can be very othering as well. it's something other, it's something different. it's different from my lived experience. Therefore it's more visual or more interesting. And I think another element to, focusing on, on the experience of homelessness is that. people in vulnerable positions like that are much easier to access, right? vulnerability and people without power are easier to access than people with power a lot of times, you know? So there's also that element of the hyper visual or what we think of as being hyper visual, experience of homelessness, that I think, Is often gravitated to, but I think that when we're, when we're doing that, when we're looking for, an assignment and we're looking for a, well, what should I focus on? You know, what's my story? I think a really, really good question that you could ask yourself is what do we learn?

Raymond Hatfield:

Hmm.

Savannah Dodd:

What do we learn from this photograph? Do we learn anything new? First of all, if the answer is no, that's a red flag because you might be replicating stereotypes or tropes or relying on people's expectations. if there are people in your photograph, what do you learn about the person in your photograph? Do you learn anything about them as an individual? Anything that goes beyond your expectations? If not, again, that could be a red flag that you're using them as a prop, as a stand in for someone of their type. That it could be any person experiencing homelessness and it would be the same photograph. Do you know what I mean?

Raymond Hatfield:

I do, yeah, and there's so much Because you're

Savannah Dodd:

not photographing them as an individual.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. It could be anybody who's homeless just for the sheer fact that, that, of their condition in life.

Savannah Dodd:

Exactly. Whereas photographs, I think, that uphold a person's dignity as an individual, it might be somebody experiencing homelessness, But that's not the only thing you learn about them,

Raymond Hatfield:

right? Right. Yeah. It's like there's this desire to, show the juxtaposition, I suppose, of like, well, we live like this because we live in a home and, you know, we can always walk to the fridge, but this person doesn't have that. So therefore, the photo has to be, finding trash or, pulling a tarp over them to, just for some shelter or something. And we, we naturally look for like, what's the exact opposite of what we would expect for somebody rather than perhaps what is their actual, experience with homelessness, you think?

Savannah Dodd:

Yeah, definitely. this is a little different, but it does bring to mind, another example. Yeah, definitely. of a series that I because you're talking about what's different and that's what reminded me of this. So, a few years ago, I did a series, that I called sacred spaces. and I went to sort of, uh, it's sort of ongoing, although I've not done much on it. Several years. Um, but, the idea was that I would go to, sacred spaces of all different religious traditions in all different countries around the world. Southeast Asia, Europe, the Middle East, St. Louis, you know, like the Basilica in St. Louis is in there. So, all sorts of spaces that people have created and deemed as sacred spaces.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm hmm.

Savannah Dodd:

But instead of photographing, the big facade or in St. Louis, there's a basilica that has amazing mosaics. So I didn't focus on the amazing mosaics or the, grand, I don't know, stained glass or the facade of the Hagia Sophia, you know?

Raymond Hatfield:

I

Savannah Dodd:

focused instead on the little things that show human care in each of these spaces. So things like a broom. In the corner or basic things that it needs to function like electrical sockets, or, what do you call, what do you call it? A water, a water, like a water

Raymond Hatfield:

jug or whatever. Yeah. Water fountain. Yeah. Yeah. Or

Savannah Dodd:

water cooler. Yeah. Or, you know, a ladder that was used for maintenance. You know, I focused on all these little things that, that Are expected and that aren't different and that are, you know, are needed and all of these across all of these sacred spaces in vastly different contexts, vastly different religious traditions. But the connecting element is that human care. And I think that by focusing on something that made them similar instead of different. I think it. My objective was to. Try to, yeah, break down barriers or expectations or prejudices, if that makes any sense.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, does. And, I want to play devil's advocate here real quick because I've heard this question asked many a times on the Photoethics podcast, which is, Am I the right person to take this photograph? So I want to know what was it about this idea that made you think I'm the right person to take this photograph of these varying different religions? Yeah, could you answer that one?

Savannah Dodd:

Yeah, that's a really good question. And, um, not that this gives me some sort of God given right to take these photographs at all. And before

Raymond Hatfield:

you get into it, I'm not trying to get into that or anything. No,

Savannah Dodd:

of course. I

Raymond Hatfield:

think it's just that question that plays in my head.

Savannah Dodd:

No, it's a great question. Because we can go down

Raymond Hatfield:

that rabbit hole of like, if I'm not homeless, who am I to take that photo? That's not my experience. But then, yeah, I feel like we might limit ourselves to what we can actually take photos of So I would just, and I love people who take photos of things that are outside of their, everyday, life, I guess. and I guess I just want to know like, what is the answer to that? how do we justify that without going too far?

Savannah Dodd:

Totally. So I guess for me personally, understanding different religious traditions has always been very important to me. My granddad was Jewish and my grandmother was Southern Baptist. Um, and my mom reverted to Islam. So there's a lot of religious traditions in my own family. I have a lot of experience in a lot of different religious traditions and my double major and university was anthropology and world religions. So it's not saying that I have any more, right to photograph these things, but that there was an underlying drive. That was personal and that was relevant for me. And that was meaningful to me. that sort of spurred me to undertake the series. it's not saying that you have to necessarily have a personal connection to whatever you're photographing. You know, I don't think that you do necessarily need to have a personal connection, but I think that it is helpful if you know why you're doing it. So my objective with that series was. To break down barriers, right? I've seen barriers in my own family, related to religion. And so, the idea of moving past these barriers and, being accepting of all religions, understanding that all religions are aiming toward, a similar goal, it's the similarities between them that has always drawn me, and that was my objective with the series. and so, Even though I'm not Buddhist myself, I photographed, Buddhist sites and yeah, I think maybe an element of that, that for me made me comfortable with doing that, apart from the fact that it, you know, photography was accepted in that site, it's not like I was photographing in a site where that was, you know, Not allowed. but I knew super

Raymond Hatfield:

far away. Yeah.

Savannah Dodd:

No, but I knew exactly why I was doing it. What my objective was. And I think that that can be something that can be really helpful for us when we're navigating ethics is understanding, what is my objective, which relates to that question about impact? yeah, I think that can be a really useful way. way of approaching some of these conversations, but absolutely. I mean, I think that that's it's such a huge question in photography about, you know, am I the right person to photograph it? And I think that's something everybody has to answer for themselves. I think sometimes it has a lot to do with motivation, figuring out what is my motivation, is my motivation because I want to, you know, Take the winning shot, you know, or is my motivation, that I want to tell a story about something that I care about, or I met this person and they've really inspired me, I think another element, though, to answer your question about, if we're going to have that conversation about, am I the right person? Also has to do with, your access. Do you have access to the community, that you want to photograph? And do they want to be photographed? You know, um,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah. So if they

Savannah Dodd:

don't want to be photographed, then you're probably not the right person to do it, because you don't have the contact with the people who want to be photographed, you know what I mean? Of course, of course. So,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah. So it really seems like, um, okay, so, I may be oversimplifying this a ton, and please tell me if I am, and correct me, but it seems like, perhaps, Ethical photographs are, images taken with a bigger context of sharing, right? sharing information about, a certain subject or, or what somebody's doing that is also somewhat ethical. personal to yourself. And then something more unethical would be purely, uh, extractive, extractive. Yeah. for, for personal gain, right whereas this photo isn't going to help or benefit literally anybody but myself. Am I kind of on the right track there?

Savannah Dodd:

I would always, I always hesitate from labeling anything as the ethical or the unethical, but I definitely, like, I definitely think that what you're saying, makes sense. Okay. Um, and I think that that's, yeah, potentially a really useful framing for people. I think the other thing that's really important in when we're talking about photography ethics is power. I really think that all of these conversations boil down to power because we have immense power when we take photographs. You know, we were talking earlier about, when you see a photograph, it shapes how you see the world. And when we're taking and sharing photographs, we're shaping how others see the world. That's power. We have power to mediate people's access to things that they might not otherwise see. We also have power to determine how the things that we photograph are going to be represented to others, and I think being really conscious and really aware that we, we hold a lot of power as image makers and I think photography, like I wouldn't be doing what I was, what I do if I didn't like photography and didn't believe that it was a good thing. You know what I mean? Photography can have immense good, power for good in the world, but if we're not conscious of our power, if we're not responsible with that power, it can also do a lot of damage, and I think, more damage than potentially other mediums could do because of the indexicality of photography, which is that relationship to the truth.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, wow. Oh, that's interesting. I don't know if I've ever thought of it that way, but, It makes sense. It's like when you watch a video of something, you almost see it as its own thing. You're like, I see it. I'm getting more information perhaps just because there's motion or sound. But when you see a photo, you kind of almost always lump it together with other like photos that you've seen before. I'm going to have to explore that. That is a, that is a really interesting idea. I know that we're coming to the end of our time here. So, This is like as, as practical as it gets, right? Are there, three, four, five questions, one question that we as photographers who are brand new to this idea, be asking ourselves before we press the shutter button?

Savannah Dodd:

Yeah, I have three questions that I would recommend and the things that I've already covered so I apologize if it's a little bit redundant, but, maybe it's worth it's a good recap anyway. Yes. the first question is, what am I representing? and that goes back to that power that we have to choose what we photograph. so it's really important. As I've already said, to maybe think quite carefully about what topics are we choosing? Why are we choosing those topics? what's my intention behind, that choice? the second question is, what are my assumptions about the people, community, or topic that I'm photographing? So, this is something that maybe we didn't cover so much explicitly, but, we all have assumptions about people and places in the world, right? Sub Saharan

Raymond Hatfield:

children, yeah, absolutely. Exactly.

Savannah Dodd:

We've got assumptions that are all tied up in ideas of gender and race and class, and these are really hard to unpack. But I think that, I talk a lot about vulnerability. I haven't talked that much about vulnerability today, but I think part of that process is being really vulnerable and really honest with yourself about what are my assumptions? What assumptions do I carry? because if you don't take that moment to take stock, you risk replicating those assumptions in your photographs,

Raymond Hatfield:

and

Savannah Dodd:

that can be detrimental. for the communities that you're photographing. So if you don't identify your assumptions, then you can't challenge them. Whereas if you identify your assumptions, you can actively consider that when you're taking photographs or when you're editing a group of photographs, you know, to say which photographs you want to share with the world. You can use those assumptions to invert them, to challenge them, to help the viewers learn something new that challenges their assumptions.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow.

Savannah Dodd:

Um, does that make sense?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. That is, uh, so powerful. Yes. Good.

Savannah Dodd:

And then the third point is, something that I already said, which is, to encourage people to maybe think about what will the viewer learn about the people, communities, or topic from my photographs? So, again, does the viewer learn anything new, or does your photograph just reflect their expectations? Does the viewer learn anything about the individual, or does your photograph reproduce stereotypes? Are they just a stand in for anybody? why is it that person who's pictured? What's the value of that? And that all really, yeah, yeah, goes back to thinking about impact, of photographs as well. So hopefully that, that was a useful summary.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my gosh, Savannah, yeah, absolutely. Those are three questions that I'm going to keep in the back of my head while, you know, I keep the camera to my face and take photos going forward because, I think as I've had, you know, as I continue In this path of photography. And now that I've transitioned out of weddings and I'm shooting a lot more personal work than I was before, I do get, feel like I, I sometimes walk into a scene and I'm just, I still have that same mindset of when I'm at a wedding, right? Like I'm paid to be here. I can kind of shoot whatever I want and whatever it's whatever, but, Going into the real world and thinking about what I want to share with the world, that's definitely going to help. So again, Savannah, I really, really appreciate, you coming on today and sharing everything that you have, with all of our listeners. And for those who are interested, first of all, I got to give a shout out to, uh, John Kenny, who was the one who, recommended the Photoethics podcast to me. And he's like, you got to check this out. And at first I was like, again. I don't feel like I take unethical photos. So why are you sending this to me? But, after listening to it, truly, it is an eye opener. And I think that there's a lot of conversations that can be had about photography that aren't necessarily, gear or settings related. And I am so glad that you are one of those people in the world who are doing that as well. So for those who are listening and are also interested in learning more about photo ethics, can you share with us how we can find you online?

Savannah Dodd:

Yeah, absolutely. So we have a website, it's www.photo ethics.org. We're also on social media. We're on Twitter at photo ethics and on Instagram at Photo Ethics Center. I should note that center is spelled in the British way. C-E-N-T-R-E. yeah, so those are probably, we're also on YouTube. but you know, you'll, you'll find all that on the website.

Raymond Hatfield:

Perfect. Perfect. Savannah, again, thank you so much for coming on and sharing everything that you did today.

Savannah Dodd:

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

Raymond Hatfield:

I love when things that I know I don't know are brought to my attention because, I, I like to be prepared somewhat, and I like to be well informed and, hearing more about how photographers make these decisions, these ethical decisions is, super cool. And again, I encourage you to check out Savannah's podcast. But I want to share with you three big takeaways from this episode, with Savannah. The first one is that, you need to ask yourself, what is my objective with this photograph to know what is the point of the photograph? This is the question that you ask yourself after you ask yourself, what is the story I'm trying to tell, right? So that's, that's always the first question that you ask, what is the story I'm trying to tell? And then what is the objective of this photograph? Because when you can get clear on what you want and what you're willing to do or not do, then you're going to have a clear vision on how to capture. Second takeaway was, just having a larger view of what you want your legacy to be. when you think of the world's great photographers, we often think of the images that they produce and not themselves as people. But imagine just for a second, you know, if, Adams was, Well, he is this amazing, nature photographer, but what if he just, like, recklessly cut down trees to put his camera in the, in the right spot, or would, I don't know, set campfires right next to dry bush, but then never put them out the next day, or would scare animals just to get them moving through his frame? Not that any of that is, is true, but, knowing that would really change your perception of the artist past their art. So think large, view of what you want your legacy to be. And then the third takeaway is that there are no ethics police, except for, of course, collectively the entire internet, but you have to be the one to decide what you believe is ethical. and believe it or not. this sounds crazy to say, but right and wrong is fluid and it changes over time and depending on different conditions, when you were a kid, you could just run around naked and people would laugh and say, oh, that's so cute and there was nothing wrong with that when you're an adult. You're going to go to jail because that is wrong, you know? And maybe that's a weak example, but you know, again, only you can decide what is ethical for yourself and you can still shoot and share street photography in ethical ways. Now, at the beginning of this episode, I mentioned that Savannah had a challenge for you. Now, if you go to her website, photoethics. org, she has info and questions to ask yourself that will help you build your own photographer's statement of ethics. ethics that you can then post on your website or just print it up and, put it in your camera bag, remind yourself, every time you go out and shoot, the statement of ethics can, set an example for others. It can encourage transparency and fosters accountability in your own work. All of those are good things to have. Now there's a link, in the show notes of this episode to learn more about the statement of ethics, and I encourage you to check it out. Before we wrap up today's podcast, I really want to take a moment to showcase Taylor, who is our listener of the week for leaving me podcast a five star iTunes review in Apple podcast. I don't think iTunes is a thing anymore. And yet. I still anyway, okay, in Apple podcast. So Taylor says, I love the podcast. I'm learning so much. I just bought my first camera and started listening to the podcast right from the start and listening all the way to the end. Thank you so much for spreading your knowledge and passion for photography. Taylor, I am. So happy that you are enjoying the show and that you are finding it helpful to you on your photo journey. So cool. If you are listening and you are enjoying the show, I cannot tell you how helpful reviews truly are. If you are listening on Spotify, you can leave the podcast a star rating right on the show's main page. Or if you want to leave me feedback directly, feel free to shoot me an email or even better yet, send me a voicemail via the contact form at beginnerphotographypodcast. com. Com. I really hope to hear from you. So that is it for this week. Again, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast brought to you by Clouds Spot. It truly is the easiest way to deliver and sell your photos online. You can learn more about Cloud Spot and grab a free account by heading over to deliver photos.com. And remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.

Outro:

If you enjoyed today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player. And continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the Beginner Photography Podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.