The Beginner Photography Podcast

Conquer the Learning Curve in Photography with Heather Lahtinen

• Raymond Hatfield

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#355 On this episode, I interview photographer and educator Heather Lahtinen about how to tackle the feelings of overwhelm that come with learning photography. Heather explains how she became an unintentional wedding photographer and eventually made the transition to going full-time.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Overwhelm Is a Choice: Feeling overwhelmed is normal, but it’s often a self-imposed barrier. Flip the narrative—view challenges as exciting adventures, not obstacles.
  • Progress Over Perfection: You don’t have to be the best from the start. Commit to improving just a little each week and focus on your journey, not comparison.
  • Action Beats Fear: Waiting until you’re “ready” and free of doubt will only hold you back. Growth comes from shooting, learning, and saying yes before you’re comfortable.
  • Your Value Goes Beyond Gear: Clients value the connection and experience you offer, not just technical perfection. Confidence and authenticity resonate more than perfect images.


Resources:

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Heather Lahtinen:

The definition of imposter syndrome is people who have this internalized fear of being outed as a fraud. So my question to those people is, are you really trying to steal money from people? No, no, of course you're not a fraud and listen, the only time you have to worry about imposter syndrome is if you're a neurosurgeon. If you're a neurosurgeon and you're going into surgery and you haven't studied yet, you have some issues. Yeah. Guys, Relax. We're talking about photography here, not curing cancer. There are no photography police that are going to come after you and say, you know what? You're an imposter.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the beginner photography podcast brought to you by cloud spot. The easiest way to deliver and even sell your photos online. I'm your host, Raymond Hadfield. And each week I interview one of the world's just most interesting photographers to learn what it really takes to capture beautiful images and compelling stories so that you can start to do the same. Now, today we have an episode from the BPP vault. Now, after years of interviewing world class photographers, I've built up a rich library of photo tips and tricks that guests share to help you learn. Be better at capturing those amazing images and with new listeners finding the show every day. These rewind interviews allow for new listeners to discover those gold photo nuggets of the past and allow long time listeners to revisit and hear an interview with some fresh ears and also more hands on experience to draw from. Now, today, we are chatting with long time wedding photographer and now educator at the Flourish Academy, Heather Lahtinen, about how to get rid of the overwhelm when learning photography. Now, I know that, when I had made the decision to pursue photography over cinematography, I thought that it was going to be a relatively easy transition because, well, all of the technical settings between cameras are the same. And while already having that understanding of how a camera works and how to capture a proper exposure was extremely helpful. There was a ton of stuff that is unique to photography that was completely foreign to me. And I had honestly left many shoots wondering if I was cut out to be a photographer. So I understand how overwhelming photography can be. And so does Heather. And that is why I'm so thankful for her to come on the show and share some great tips Pragmatic tips and ideas on how to remove the overwhelm when learning photography. So with that, let's just go ahead and get on into this interview with Heather Latenin. I was talking, I was having a conversation with a listener the other day who was talking about how bad she wanted to go full time, and she was telling me how much she loved photography and she wanted to be able to make an income at home while still raising her kids. Right. Right. So I asked her, well, what is it that you need to be able to get there? And she said, well, I need a real camera. Because currently, she's learning and enjoying photography just with her cell phone, which is great. But it's not very uncommon, is it, for us to kind of see the future and want the end result. When you first got started, were you blissfully unaware of the idea of how hard it was to be a photographer?

Heather Lahtinen:

That's a great question, Raymond. I'm actually an accidental wedding photographer. So I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but have you ever showed up at a wedding and you're like, Hey, congratulations. This is so fun. Who's your photographer? And they say, Oh, we were hoping you would take photos.

Raymond Hatfield:

No, that's never happened. No.

Heather Lahtinen:

Okay. It happened to me. It happened to me. I went to my cousin's wedding. My daughter was about a year old. And so I had a baby and I said, Hey, who's your photographer? And they. They asked me to take photos of their wedding the day of the

Raymond Hatfield:

wedding. Wow.

Heather Lahtinen:

So talk about blissfully unaware. I didn't have a clue. I said, well, that information would have been useful yesterday. I would have maybe charged another battery. Raymond, I had a Canon PowerShot G3 point and shoot camera and I didn't know how to use it. So I was just known in the family as the person who took like all of the snapshot type photos. So it was a low key outdoor wedding and I took photos for them and I had a lot of fun And I put them on you know back in the day I put them on a disc and I gave them to them and they loved them and I had a lot of fun But they were just snapshots. I mean, let me give you an example. I photographed the entire bridal party at F 2. 8, which meant that the bride and groom were in focus and nobody else. But I didn't know any better. And listen, the truth is they got what they paid for. I was free. Okay. So I did the best I could, but I had a lot of fun with that. I didn't. Even know about DSLRs per se. I knew there were better cameras. I knew I didn't have the best camera, but I knew I was having fun. I went to, I was working a corporate job at that time and I went back to work that Monday and I was telling a friend, look, I photographed my cousin's wedding. Look at these photos. They're fun, right? I knew they weren't great. They were snapshots. She said, what are you doing on June 13th? And this was like, three weeks ahead. And I said, I don't know why. And she said, well, I'm getting married and I don't have a photographer.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my goodness. Could you take some

Heather Lahtinen:

photos at our wedding? And I said, I said, you're hilarious. I have no clue what I'm doing. Are you okay if I ruin your wedding? And she said, well, we weren't going to hire a photographer. Oh, okay. So my photos would be better than none. So I agreed to do it. I even bought a little tiny flash because that power shot actually had a hot shoe So I was able to buy a flash and I photographed that wedding And again, these were just snapshot images I knew I needed better gear, but I didn't I didn't know what any of that again I was working a corporate job and I had no aspirations at that point to be a any type of photographer let alone a wedding photographer or an entrepreneur. I was quite happily working in a corporate job. So it was just a strange thing how it came to be and then somebody else saw those photos and asked me to photograph Their wedding and so that next year I photographed three three weddings. Wow Like friends and family, just really, really low key at this point. I did buy a new camera. I bought a Canon 10 D with a kit lens, which was like their low level, you know, entry level, I should say camera. And, the next year I shot 30 weddings. Oh my goodness.

Raymond Hatfield:

I went from three

Heather Lahtinen:

to 30. Yeah. On a Canon 10 D with very, very little knowledge.

Raymond Hatfield:

So let's go ahead and go down that trail right now, which is you had some sort of experience, you had experienced to a degree, right. To be kind of known as the family snapshot photographer, right. But that doesn't mean that you're qualified to, I'd say, be the pro that you would consider yourself today. So where did the education come from for you? Like, where did you learn the technicals of photography to start getting better?

Heather Lahtinen:

Yeah, that's a great question because this was 17 years ago. So it wasn't like there were courses on the internet, you know, you would have to buy books or maybe go to a workshop. but for me, it was just trial by fire. I just practiced, I just shot like crazy. The best thing you can do is shoot as much as you can. Raymond, I knew the photos were terrible. I was not delusional, right? I knew that they didn't look good, but I also knew that in order to get better, I had to be willing to look bad. In other words, you have to be willing to suck and produce bad work so that you can get to the point where you learn and you produce good work. That's the only way to learn is by taking action. So I just shot like crazy. I shot weddings, I shot friends, I shot families, I shot babies, anything, anybody would let me photograph. I photographed just for the practice. And that's, and then over time, you know, you start to learn, like never forget the first time aperture really clicked for me, that I understood. That if I changed my aperture, I could make my background blurry. I didn't know that. I didn't know how people got their backgrounds blurry. I didn't understand that it was their lens and their aperture. And because I had a kit lens, I actually wasn't able to reproduce

Raymond Hatfield:

that.

Heather Lahtinen:

When I learned it, I bought the Canon 50 1. 2 lens.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, wow. You just went all the way. I

Heather Lahtinen:

did. I went all in. I did. And it was, it was magic. I remember I put an aperture priority. I set it to one, two, but again, I still wasn't quite sure what I was doing. I took a photo and the background was blurry. And I w I mean, I could have, I would have died happy right then. I was so excited that I finally figured out how to make a background blurry. And then it's obviously mastering your craft. And you know, the key is it just takes time and you have to just photograph and you have to understand what you love and what you don't love. So I learned very quickly that I wasn't really cut out for families, but I loved weddings. So I put all of my effort into learning wedding photography. I took a few workshops that I found, like you had to physically, fly to a workshop to watch a well known photographer or shoot a wedding or learn from them. I did several of those and shot a lot of weddings, 30 a year for several years before I got to a point where I felt really confident in my work.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's an impressive growth. I don't think that many people are going to you know discount that at all because obviously I mean the journey that you had to go on there just to be able to get to where you are is It's something that I would say I don't want to say that it's uncommon, because I feel like everybody kind of starts off in a way of like, Oh, well, we have a family or a friend whose wedding I'm gonna shoot, and then that's where it's gonna go. But what was really interesting is that you took that newfound, excitement, that newfound joy or passion, and then you really, really went deep. In like all in on it. Why do you think the photography was so, special to you? What do you think it was about photography that really made your heart sing? I guess for lack of a better term,

Heather Lahtinen:

I don't know that it was even photography per se. I just love people. I love connecting with people in photography happens to be my vehicle to do that. And to be able to produce. a photo that makes someone cry or brings that type of emotion, I found to be very, very rewarding, very affirming and fulfilling. Like my cousin's wedding. I gave them the snapshots. I printed a few out. I even figured out how to do some in black and white with the flowers in color. I don't want to brag. Yep. But I figured it out and they were overcome with gratitude for those photos. And I thought. I think I got hooked on that feeling, that people could connect with their images in such a way. That's like forever. Like the impact was, was so much bigger than just me and photography. And I had also lost my brother tragically at a very young age. And I just thought, everybody should have photos of their family, you know, and everybody should have nice photos and, you know, when someone passes the first thing you do is you look for the photos. And so that was kind of in the back of my mind. I wouldn't say that's what drove me, but it was kind of in the back of my mind to make sure to get photos of the grandparents at a wedding and the family connections. and they love that. And it didn't matter that they were not technically perfect. They didn't actually care. And I think to this day, they don't even notice my cousin in particular. I actually interviewed her recently on one of my episodes. And I was like, Hey, how are you feeling about those wedding photos now that it's been 17 years? I said, it's okay. That was vintage Heather. It's okay. You know, I get it. And she said, Heather, we love our photos and we're so grateful. And I thought, wow, that was on a point and shoot camera. And she, so it wasn't, it wasn't the camera and it wasn't the quality of the photos. Those things are important down the road, for sure. I don't want to say that they're not, but what was more important to me was the connection with people. And I often look back at that scenario and I think, what if I would have said, no, like, what if they would have said, can you take photos at our wedding the day of? And I said, Oh no, I'm not ready.

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm hmm.

Heather Lahtinen:

Where would I be still in corporate? Oh, I mean, I shudder to think. I just wonder if there are people out there that are seeing no to opportunities because they're not ready for them, but it's exactly what they need to do in order to get ready.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Yeah. Because who determines whether or not they're actually ready for that opportunity? it's themselves. It's themselves. And that's kind of one of the things that I really want to talk about today, which is just that, I mean, as you mentioned there, there's a lot of overwhelm that you can face when just getting started in photography. Specifically, I mean, obviously we know that there's the learning aspect. We have to learn how to use these cameras. And then you're going to get to a point to where your gear is holding you back. So then you need to get overwhelmed by the amount of gear, you know, that there is and all the possibilities there. Do you think that it's even possible to not be overwhelmed in photography at some point.

Heather Lahtinen:

Wow, very good question because I think a lot of photographers are overwhelmed and I have a slightly different approach to this. I believe overwhelm is a choice. You are choosing to be overwhelmed so that it gives you an excuse or an out for not pursuing it

Raymond Hatfield:

because

Heather Lahtinen:

if it were easy then you wouldn't have an excuse and you'd have to do it. I like to flip everything on the opposite so when people say it's overwhelming, it's confusing, business is hard, I say well what if it were easy. And what if we just had to do one thing? What could we do today or this week in order to move forward with our photography instead of looking at this huge picture? Of course, it's going to be overwhelming, but it's overwhelming because it's unknown. And there are people out there that actually know people like yourself that provide these resources that actually know how to make this work and provide roadmaps. So you don't have to feel overwhelmed because you have Raymond. You can just go find your, I went through your episode with your roadmap. And I thought that's brilliant. Every photographer should have access to your approach on that roadmap because you just laid it out for them. And actually that was like a mini course in photography that episode was really good. And you went through everything. And so okay, I get it. If you don't know it, it could feel overwhelming, but what if you can just tell yourself a different story? What if you could switch it and say, actually, I'm really excited about this. Maybe instead of overwhelming, could we call it an adventure? And we're just learning. And yeah, it's a bunch of things I've never done before, but I'm excited to learn and I believe in myself when I can, I know that I can figure it out. So just the language we choose is super important here. I actually, side note when I was mentoring photographers for years, I got a certification to become a life breakthrough life coach because I noticed that people were holding themselves back in all kinds of strange ways from pursuing their passion for photography or business. And I wanted to figure out how I could help them. And one thing I learned was the way people talk to themselves about what's possible for them can determine their success or where they struggle. And if you use words like this is so overwhelming. I feel stuck. I don't know how to get there. Then you're going to feel those things. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. So if you could just change your language around it today and say, okay, Heather says I can figure this out. Raymond has the resources. I can make this happen. There's a lot to learn. Sure. But it, it's an adventure.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my goodness. I think a lot of people right now are just going to turn off this episode because they got everything that they could possibly get out of this. We have a lot of work to do after that in reframing just how they see this adventure, like you said, that is photography. So thank you so much for sharing that. That really is a, a unique perspective that can really help out others. But let's be a little bit more practical. Practical here and talk about let's go back to your experience and when you maybe not when you first started weddings. But I want to know about the time when you first decided to yourself. You know what i'm gonna take photography seriously to the point to where one day i'm gonna leave my job what was that like for you?

Heather Lahtinen:

Okay, so I had, my daughter was a year. I was working a corporate job in engineering. I liked my job. I was doing well, was climbing the corporate ladder, and I really didn't have any reason to leave, but I did love photography, and when I went from three weddings to 30 weddings, something had to give.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Heather Lahtinen:

Right? Either I was going to sort of slow down with photography and refocus on my corporate job, or I was going to leave corporate and do photography. And I got to tell you, there was a moment and it was very brief where I thought, I'm just going to back off on photography and just, you know, corporate is safe. And I know where I'm headed. And that didn't last very long because I'm, I'm actually very adventurous and I'm an overachiever. So I was like, no, I'm just going to, I'm going to go for it. I can be home with her. I can have a more flexible schedule. So I said to my husband, I said, Hey, looky here. I said, what if I left my corporate job to pursue photography? And now listen, we might be poor for a little bit because I was making good money, but that's okay. Cause. I'll figure it out. You know, would you be okay with that? My husband is incredibly supportive. He said, of course, whatever you need to do. So I left thinking, okay, I'm leaving the salary behind. What am I going to do? This is very scary. This is very unknown. We didn't have the interwebs like we do now. How am I going to learn this? And I just started shooting. I just shoot. Ask for money. Allow people to pay you. And listen, if somebody says to you, like maybe you're photographing for your friends or your family, and they say, can I pay you for this? And you say no, you're an idiot. Let people give you money. So I started just like letting people give me money, and before I knew it had enough money to buy nicer gear. My first big purchase was the 70 to 200 Canon lens. I was so proud of that lens. And then I started making money and a little bit more and I went to 30 weddings and I raised my prices a little bit and before long. I had like blown my corporate salary out of the water.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow.

Heather Lahtinen:

And that's because there's one thing I didn't take into account There's one thing I didn't realize was that by leaving that job I opened up space you have to let go to let in and when I left that job I opened up this space where I could Spend some time learning photography and, learning how to edit. I used capture one before Lightroom was announced and I'll never forget it. Lightroom was announced in 2006. It was life changing prior to that capture one. I was learning Photoshop, learning all of these things about business had no clue. And trust me. If I can do it, anybody could do it. I didn't have any experience with this at all. I was just learning as I went. I just didn't see any downside to trying. So I just did, even if I made mistakes, I thought, well, there, I mean, what's the worst that can happen or just learn again, or I edit again and whatever. And I just kept pressing forward. And then I got. Really serious. Like, no, I, I like this. I like the challenge. I'm going to grow this business and I'm just going to knock it out of the park. And I set my sights really high, really high in terms of. I want to be this high end wedding photographer in my area. I want to be known for this. I'm just going to make it happen. And, I did it in a very short period of time. And I think the key is actually, you know what? It goes back to something you said. You said this, it was episode two 14 on your photography roadmap. I'm paraphrasing, but you said like you have to have a destination in mind. Like, where would you like to go? You can't just say, I'm going to, jump on the interstate because I'm going to go on vacation. And I'm just going to drive till I get somewhere. You have to put a pin on the map. You have to set a destination and ask yourself, like, what is it specifically you would like to achieve? Maybe you are a hobbyist. Who just doesn't want to pay for their own gear. Wouldn't that be amazing if you wanted a 70 to 200 or a new camera body or looking at these mirrorless and you're like, Oh, I want to try that out, but I don't want to pay for it. How can you get someone else to pay for it? I can help you with that. And by the way, you can do it legally. You can legally have what the IRS designates as a hobby business. Please seek advice from an attorney or an accountant, but I'm not one. That's my disclaimer, but you can do that. But the point is you have to decide what your goal is. What are you aiming for? And so I was aiming for a full time legitimate photography business, and I just wasn't going to rest. Until I, I figured it out and I wanted to figure it out like everyone else quickly. Because I didn't, I didn't want to make mistakes. I wanted to make money, but I also wasn't afraid to trip up. I wasn't afraid to make mistakes. So I just kept plowing forward and I made things happen pretty quickly.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm sure that there's somebody listening right now who's thinking to themselves like, Alright, Heather, like, this sounds cool, but I have a four year degree, and who am I to claim, to set my sights on being a high end wedding photographer? I haven't even gone to school for any of this. What would you say to them?

Heather Lahtinen:

Who am I? So that sounds a lot like imposter syndrome to me, right? And the symptoms of imposter syndrome are just what you said, the who am I, or what are people going to think, or maybe you have a lack of confidence, or you just feel inadequate because you're comparing yourself to everyone else. And you're just, you have this fear of like, I don't know what I'm doing, what am I going to do? Okay, I just want you to, whatever you're thinking in those regards, ask yourself, is this thought serving me? Does it make me feel good? Does it feel good to think to yourself, who am I? No, it doesn't feel good, which means it's not the truth. Because the truth will make you feel good and a lie will make you feel badly. So who are you not to do it? why couldn't you do it? I mean, the definition of imposter syndrome is people who have this internalized fear of being outed as a fraud. So that's the definition. So my question to those people is. are you really trying to steal money from people because the definition of fraud is to, deceive someone into paying you for something you don't know how to do. I mean, are you truly stealing from people? No, no, of course you're not a fraud and you're not, listen, the only time you have to worry about imposter syndrome is if you're a neurosurgeon. If you're a neurosurgeon and you're going into surgery and you haven't studied yet, you have some issues guys. Relax, we're talking about photography here, not curing cancer. There are no photography police that are going to come after you and say, you know what? You're an imposter.

Raymond Hatfield:

It's the internet. You don't know what you're

Heather Lahtinen:

doing. Internet is the

Raymond Hatfield:

photography police. Yeah,

Heather Lahtinen:

turn it over, turn it over because you're going to photographer jail. I mean, it just doesn't happen. So, you know, what does that even mean? So the funny thing is, I'm not downplaying this. These thoughts are very real, and they're very serious. The problem is, when they're just in your head, and you don't vocalize them or talk them through, they will absolutely hold you back. But you and I having this conversation, or like, I work directly with a lot of photographers, well, group coaching as well as one on one, and when I have them talk this out, like, Oh, are you trying to steal from people? No, of course not. Okay, then you're fine. You're offering a service. You bought a camera. You offer a service. you're not forcing people to hire you. People make a decision to hire you, and if they want to hire you and pay you, please let them. It's just a service that you're offering. Allow them to pay you, you take their photo. what is inherently negative or wrong about that? Oh, nothing. So you can do it. You could put a post out today and say, Hey, I'm looking for some families. I'd like to practice, take some photos. Um, actually I teach at our local college and every semester I say, Hey, how many people in here are photographers? Raymond, no one raises their hand. Zero people.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Heather Lahtinen:

And then I say, how many of you guys have cameras? Well, they all raise their hand because they're taking a photography class. And I say, okay, because last time I checked, if you photograph and you are a person and you add an ER to the end of it, that makes you a photographer. And they'll laugh and I'll say, how many people are photographers? I'll get them to raise their hands, you know, but they're kind of nervous about it. And they say, but Heather, I'm not a real photographer.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh. You're fake. You know what?

Heather Lahtinen:

How does that

Raymond Hatfield:

mean? Yeah,

Heather Lahtinen:

exactly. What does that mean? And then they get a good laugh out of it. And you start to see that these things that you fear are actually quite silly when they come to light when they're in the dark, which is your mind and they're just bouncing around. They're very real and they're very silly. scary. But when you talk about them, you're like, no, I'm just taking photos. And Heather told me to relax and I can take photos and it's fine. You'll be fine. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, Raymond here. And we will get back to today's interview in just a moment. In today's digital world, knowing how to edit your images is more important than ever. Now, today's top photographers around the world lean into the editing process. More of, uh, as a maker's mark for their images. Now you want a style of your own too, but you don't know where to start. That is precisely why I have created 52 free Lightroom presets for you to download right now. Presets are not a one click solution. You know this, but they are simply the perfect teaching tool To see step by step how a look is created so that you can create a unique editing style, all of your own as well. So download your 52 free Lightroom presets today over at freephotographypresets. com. Now back to today's interview. This reminds me of a conversation that I had a long time ago with somebody who, they were also talking about, everything that they have to worry about when going full time in their photography, right? Like, I don't even know what to do about taxes, you know? Like, what if it changes my tax bracket? And I was like, you're so worried right now about being so successful in the future that you're not even willing to take action today to grow, to potentially get there. like, if you get into a new tax bracket, Cool. Like, you're making a lot more money. Awesome. You made more money. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think that what you said right there kind of reminds me a lot about that. It's that, like, you really just have to take action. You know, and you can't just overwhelm yourself with all of the possibilities. And, well, what are the other established photographers in my area going to think if I come up? Because, who cares? Who cares,

Heather Lahtinen:

right? Who cares what they think? You know what? They don't pay my mortgage. Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right? So, why

Heather Lahtinen:

am I, , why would you worry about what people are going to think? Because if they, if they like you, they don't like you, that's none of your business anyway. You can't control what people think. But, why would you not focus on the people that love you? Why would you not focus on the people that want to hire you, that want your services, and that want to pay you, rather than maybe the couple of people who are rolling their eyes or saying, who does she think she is? And the truth is, no one is thinking about you as much as you're thinking about yourself. And what are the chances that someone else is thinking your thoughts about you? Zero, because they're only thinking of themselves. So there's no, and by the way, side note, I read a book recently I read a lot of books. I'm really into personal growth and development, but this one to me was life changing. It's called 90 seconds to a life that you love. And in that book, she says, it's actually not fear That's holding you back. So people label it as fear, but it's not. It is the potential possibility of what people might think if you do something. So it's not fear. 'cause you will not get mauled by a bear. Like you're not going to die. There's no clear and present danger. So it's not fear, it's what if someone. Thinks I'm a fraud or an imposter. What if somebody, makes fun of me or judges my photos, but it's not the fear of that you're afraid of the feeling that you might get if somebody doesn't like your work. So that feeling might be embarrassment or shame. That's actually what you're avoiding. You're avoiding embarrassment. You're avoiding putting yourself out there because somebody might think something. But that, I mean, I think you'll agree. That's just no way to live your life.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, you're right. It's not any way to live your life in any sort of, meaningful capacity, I suppose. which is one of the reasons why, in the beginner photography podcast Facebook group, like there's a zero rudeness tolerance policy, because as you, I mean, everybody's kind of at a different point in their journey. And I want people to fully understand that. And I want them to know that if they share a photo, well, that's where they're at in photography. And that there's really no reason why anybody should be able to criticize it in a way that is hurtful or anything like that because we all need some sort of feedback. That's how we grow. That's why I started this podcast. That's why, you know, you went to these workshops to learn and grow from others. It's not necessarily about, who can make the best photo today, because we're all, we're all somewhere else. So yeah, 100%.

Heather Lahtinen:

Yeah. I like that, Raymond. And I'll tell you why. Actually, I have this podcast episode where I have 10 tips to overcoming imposter syndrome. And one of those tips is to accept that you're a work in progress and get really comfortable and just accept where you are, you don't need to be. I always said, I don't need to be the best wedding photographer. I just need to be better than I was last week.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh yeah. Yeah. And as

Heather Lahtinen:

long as I'm getting better. mean, there's a difference between comparison and inspiration. If you look at other people's work and it makes you feel badly about yourself, that's comparison. You need to stop. But if you look at somebody else's work and you think to yourself, Oh, I might be able to do that. And you go pick up your camera. That's inspiration. And I learned that from one of my early mentors. Who's Jerry Gohenis. He's like a world famous wedding. He's been on

Raymond Hatfield:

the podcast before. Yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's fantastic. Yeah.

Heather Lahtinen:

Oh my gosh. So I met him at a workshop I took in the early 2000s and Raymond, as luck would have it, I happened to sit next to him at dinner that night and he's so full of wisdom and that's one of the things I learned from him was you don't have to be better than you were. You don't have to be the best. You just have to be better than you were last week. He was such an inspiration to me. When I would look at his work, I would think, I would literally go grab grab my camera and a couple and I would say, I want to try this and I would, try it with my own sort of spin on it because he was so, so inspiring to me. But if you look at another photographer and it makes you feel poorly about yourself, then obviously you need to stop doing that. Look at it for inspiration and where you want to. Where you would like to go, but, I love that you've created this space for people. I think you and I are very much on the same wavelength with this because at the flourish Academy, we don't tolerate condescending talk or negativity wherever you're at. I don't care if you're taking photos with your iPhone. I respect where you're at in your journey. And I also respect wherever you want to go in your journey. Cause again, some people, everybody has a different goal, right? I just, maybe I just want to make some money to buy gear. Maybe I want to be the best in the world. I don't know, but we support all different levels because much like you, we believe there's room for everyone.

Raymond Hatfield:

Absolutely. Absolutely. It all comes down to everybody just has a different eye, you know? I mean, I could spend my whole life watching every Jerry Gionis training. Try to shoot everything just like him. Which I will never. Yeah. And yet, you know, your photos are uniquely you. I don't look at your photos and think like, oh, there's a, there's a Jerry photo right there. Right. These are your photos. And it's just because we all have different experiences. So, that's it's just very cool toe to hear that from somebody else as well and kind of validate that. Right? one thing I kind of want to ask here is that, I can think of, more photographers than I could probably count who are talented, photographers. Who are honestly, I mean, just really, really talented photographers, but they feel stuck, right? They feel stuck at this imaginary 100 price point for, you know, a photo session or something. And they're worried that if they increase their prices, they're going to lose clients. Or they're worried of, once again, who am I to charge more, But obviously, they're struggling because they're only charging 100. Right. Right. What would you suggest they need to do to break past that 100 price point?

Heather Lahtinen:

Okay. I love this question. Probably my favorite one of the day. And I have a couple of things I'd like to say around this, but first, let me say this. you can't have a sustainable business with a hundred dollar. Photography client, right? So you obviously have to do something, but I was working with a client recently. I want to say she was, charging maybe in the like 250 range for a portrait session. And she's just, she's just sweating bullets, Raymond. She's like, Heather, I know I need to increase my prices. And I was thinking of going to like four or 500, but I'm going to lose all my clients. I'm going to lose all my referrals. And she's just like doom and gloom, right? I let her speak for a moment. This was on zoom and I said. You're going to lose 100 percent of your clients. If you raise your rates, you're telling me that not a single person will come back to you. And she kind of like chuckled. And I said, you don't know that you might lose some clients. You might lose some referral, but my guess is they'll probably even start to respect you more and send more people to you. But what will probably happen is actually the opposite of what you think will happen. You will never lose a hundred percent of your clients. Somebody will come along for the ride. You know why? Because they love you. And it doesn't have anything to do with the photos. That's another emphasis you have that I love. It's not all about the gear or the photos, right? Because you could be anywhere in your journey, and you could be making an impact on someone.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Heather Lahtinen:

So, that's the first thing, is, you're not going to lose all your referrals and if you feel comfortable, more comfortable, like just incrementally increasing your prices, that's great. One side note, one strategy I have for that is if you're really nervous, could you increase your prices 50 and say to yourself, okay, I'll be 150 for the next five clients. Once five people book me, whether that takes a week or months. I'm going to increase it again, 50, five more clients at that price. And just keep like taking it up. If that's how you feel comfortable. Like, I don't like the idea of raising prices, like once a year or a certain timeframe. I like the idea of hitting goals. So the goal might be, okay, I booked 10 weddings at a thousand dollars and I shoot those weddings. And then, I'm going to book five more 1500, whatever your increments look like is you're just you're doing it with your own comfort level, but I do encourage you to push yourself a little bit. You know, I'm not suggesting you go from 100 to 4, 000, but maybe 100 to 150 isn't quite enough of a jump. Maybe it needs to be like a little bit more. So push yourself outside of your comfort zone. And I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how people show up. Okay. So that was, Raymond, believe it or not, all of that was a side note.

Raymond Hatfield:

Here comes the meat.

Heather Lahtinen:

Okay, so let me, take a slight step back and say, the people that are struggling, if you're struggling, this is a hundred percent for you. About, maybe 12 or 15 years ago. So when I very first started mentoring. Other photographers. I got really curious as to why some photographers would succeed, just like soar just right out of the gate and others would struggle. Why couldn't they get clients, even if they were equally talented. So they're producing, they're competent photographers that are producing good work. Why would some of them do really, really well and others would not. I literally couldn't figure it out. So I, this sounds, this sounds really dramatic, but I honestly dedicated my life to figuring out this puzzle. Like I ultimately built the flourish Academy around what I learned. And one of the programs that I have, it's like all we talk about because, and it's not as simple. I know people are thinking, what is it? Just, tell me and I'll do it, but it's, it's not that straightforward. let me say this. At the same time that I was teaching photographers, starting the mentoring, I started to notice a pattern. And I thought that I was teaching Photography, business, Lightroom, Photoshop, which I was right. Okay. But my clients started to say things to me, like, you know what, you really helped me in my personal life or with my marriage and my family. And you changed my perspective on this issue and now I'm more productive and you helped me reach my goals. Or you introduced me to Dave Ramsey and now I'm debt free. And so what I noticed was that my mentoring clients who are photographers we're showing up for more than just photography. So what if I started serving them differently, which is when I decided to become a life coach, because I wanted to figure out why are some people able to make this happen? And some people are not. And, you know, I think it comes down to, there are people who believe in what's possible and that they can do it. And there are people who don't, I know that sounds. really very how maybe basic, you know, there's just, we've all met people like

Raymond Hatfield:

that,

Heather Lahtinen:

right? There's in the, honestly, I find that they basically fall in one of these two camps. There are people that can assume that assume they can do it. And there are people that assume that they can't. And obviously the people who assume that they can't do it, You know, with anything in life, if they don't see clear rules posted or they don't have all of the information, they worried that they're going to do it wrong, so they, they just don't do it. They don't take action, but then there are people, and I'm one of these people. I just assume I'll figure it out. I 100 percent say yes before I'm ready, because I know that saying yes will help me to take action, to learn. How I mean my entire path in my career was paved because I said yes before I knew how I just did it Anyway, because I assumed that I could learn it And so these two groups of people the people who are stuck are assuming that they either can't do it or that it's too difficult or that it it won't work And one of the things they tell me they say things like heather You don't understand my market because in my market people are just not willing to pay that and I listen And I say really can you tell me more about that degree in micro or macro economics that you have You are making that crap up. You have no clue what your market will or will not support unless you have studied it. I live in a very socially economically depressed area Very I happen to shoot in a bigger city, you know, and I travel a little bit for my weddings But the clients are there the people are there you just have to find them But if you say that your market won't support what you want to do, then your hands are tied, right? There's nothing you can do. You're like, Heather, it's out of my hands. It's, there's nothing I can do. You know, I throw my arms up in despair. I'm stuck. Well, there's no strategy I can give you that will convince you otherwise, because you're assuming you can't. But if you assume that there's a way and you just haven't figured it out yet, which is the truth, then we have something to work with. So that's what it boils down to. Is this like, people, Like sitting around waiting to feel ready. And I just want, I want you to stop waiting for permission or experience. stop assuming that you can't. And instead say yes, before you know how, and it's in doing the thing. That's how you figure out how to do the thing. Does that make sense? It

Raymond Hatfield:

did make sense. It did make sense. And I'm very excited that you brought this up, but I'm gonna put your feet to the fire here. And when you said, obviously, if you believe that, I live in this very socially, economically depressed town, that, like, I have no other options here, right? That there's nothing that we can do, and we have to change our mindset, right? So you have helped me change my mindset. Okay. I looked on Zillow. Guess what? I found a million dollar home in my, in my town. You're right. There has to be. to be some sort of population of people who would be willing to pay for photography. Now what are those strategies that you would recommend to start building a bigger business?

Heather Lahtinen:

You gotta find that person and then you have to photograph them. You have to find someone who is in your ideal target market. Well, okay. First, Raymond, let's back up. If you haven't defined who that person is, we'll never find her. I say her because a lot of times when we're talking about family photography, seniors, portraits, or weddings, it's typically a female that is making the decision, not always, but typically it's the female making the decision. So. If I haven't clearly defined who and where she is, who she is, I'll never find her. But once I do, so if I say, okay, I found these, this groups of people, is there a way I can just make friends or get involved in a community group or something that I can start meeting these people? Types of people. So for instance, if you are in, we have pockets of areas, much like any town or city, right? Where there is more wealth than others. Well, you can tell by like where the mega churches, when there's this big mega church, could you start attending that church? Could you get involved in church activities? Could you become the church photographer? Just by the way, I don't wait for permission. To be hired, I just show up with my camera all the time, like, go to church, show up with your camera all the time, and you'll be known as that guy with the camera, and then people will start asking you if you take photos, then you make friends, and hey, have been known to go up to people and say, your kid is really cute, I wonder if I could take her photo sometime, or, I can spot an engagement ring from a mile away. And I will go up to someone in the mall and I will say your engagement ring is beautiful. Did you just get engaged? Tell me about your wedding. And then obviously who doesn't want to talk about their wedding. And then I say, Hey, I have a website. I'm a wedding photographer, but I have a lot of ideas for your wedding. So you might already have a photographer that's fine, but go check it out for like color ideas. Have you picked your florist? Are you looking for a band? You know, and I'll just start asking questions and I'll point to my own website as a resource for Raymond. These are strangers at the mall. I do this. I call this, okay. I don't call it this one of these like Seth Godin or maybe Malcolm Gladwell calls this gorilla marketing. Have you heard this term? Yeah. Well, you're just like, I call it feet on the pavement where you, you cannot be doing this from behind your computer screen. You have to be in your community meeting people. Is there an organization that you have a heart for, that you could volunteer at, with your services, that happens to have your ideal client at that, at that organization or at that community group? And the answer is yes. It's just going to take some effort to find those people. Now, there are organizations I volunteer for that aren't in my target market just because I have a heart for it. I believe in giving back to the community as much as you possibly can. If you can find a community group that happens to be your target market or a nonprofit that you could serve. Fantastic. But like for instance, I always volunteered to photograph the March of Dimes walk for babies because who doesn't love babies? Okay. Especially the premature babies. So I'm a wedding photographer. These people are not looking for wedding photographers. They're looking for family photographers. And it was kind of funny to see my banner up. Like it was all about weddings at these events, but I did it because I loved the organization and I met a lot of people. And you know what happened? Those people referred me, Oh, my friend, my cousin, or, Hey, there's this photographer that always photographs. The walk for babies and she's super nice and she gives us the photos and she shoots weddings. I got so many referrals that way and they weren't even in my target market. So what i'm saying here is number one get out in your community and volunteer and meet people get involved You have to get involved you have to know people If you can figure out a way to make that in your target market then bonus points

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, huge bonus points man. That made me think of a lot of questions there because having talked to a lot of photographers who are looking to make money with their camera, I've, I made a training about this in the Premium Members group of, how to find your ideal client. But still, there's a lot of questions as far as like, what do I do with that information? just because I come up with an ideal client, you know, does that mean that I, Can't photograph anybody who's not that person. do you have any, any thoughts on that that could help photographers? Oh, that's a great

Heather Lahtinen:

question. so, I target for my wedding clientele, I target a very feminine, frilly, high end bride who's gonna have all of the details and all of the fancy things. But I occasionally did get a tomboy bride, you know, who was maybe more athletic. Those are my brides, yeah. Right, okay, right. Okay. So, I loved her and she loved me and it was great, but I would call her an outlier, so of course I would still photograph her. I thought she was fantastic. So I photograph people who aren't my ideal client there. And some of those outliers are great fits and sometimes they're not. Sometimes you're like, Oh, that's why that's not my ideal client. Right. But I focused primarily on getting my ideal client, but not to the neglect of anyone else. I mean, if you want to hire me now, okay. I did get a call once. This is so funny. Somebody called me and said, could you photograph my boat? And I was like, no, I mean, no, that was definitely an outlier. And you are not my ideal client. It was kind of a creepy dude. So I was like, no, I'm not going to photograph your boat. I mean, it has to make sense. So in the case of weddings, I photographed, more athletic brides versus the more like fancy brides. A little bit more glamorous. I love them all, but I was focused on the higher end bride for sure, but not, not to the neglect of anyone else.

Raymond Hatfield:

So the point of the ideal client isn't to, filter out, like not to draw a line in the sand of who you will and who you won't work with, but simply to give you more of a direction when marketing is that, ah,

Heather Lahtinen:

great, great, great question. Yeah. Actually the point of the ideal client is to inform your marketing and how you speak. Because it's how you speak and who you are speaking to. So, we also have ideal client worksheets and exercises at the flourish Academy that we go through, because if you know, for instance, that your ideal client, does yoga five days a week at a particular yoga studio, or she's really into health and fitness, and she shops smoothies. Like this might inform the way you talk about your health on social media. Right? You might pull out more things like that. Versus, if I'm a rodeo photographer, which I know some rodeo photographers. Sure, yeah. And they're, they're gonna talk about very specific things related to rodeos. And it's almost like you have this, this common language. The only the other person can understand and that you speak. So in the case of a rodeo, that's very clear and easy to see because they use words I don't even know, right, about horses. They talk about things they have this like inner circle, this language that they talk. So they get each other. Right. And there's, camaraderie and there's just, there's just a connection. So it's the same thing. It's just at a different level. If I know where she shops, what she likes to do, the boutique she's into, what movie she likes to frequent, or does she do that? Is she a professional? Does she work full time? All of that can inform the way I speak to her in my marketing. So the idea, because. I want her to read my posts or my blog or something on my website and say to herself, wow, it sounds like she's talking to me because when they say that you've made the connection, right? Something you said resonates with them and you have common ground because people hire those that they know, like, and trust. And how are they going to know you unless you are sharing about yourself, of course, But and then to like you is to have common ground and then to trust you is to see it repeatedly So if you are very clear on that target market and you're just it's in all of your marketing It's infused everywhere over time They start seeing you and hearing you and they connect with you the next thing, you know, you're getting a phone call They're hiring you and she's like I just I love you so much I love everything you do and you were doing this and you're like, i'm, sorry Have we met?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Heather Lahtinen:

But to her, we have, because she's so familiar with me, and she's connected.

Raymond Hatfield:

Geez, I really think that a lot of photographers listening right now are going to think to themselves, oh my gosh, this makes a little bit more sense, and then be excited about the whole thing. Uh, that was definitely one of those things that I struggled with a lot in the beginning. Like, what should I be doing with this information? But when you break it down the way that you just did right there, it really does make a lot of sense. It's not, it's not that we're going after. Sarah . Right. You know the the one person, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know, and if she doesn't drink smoothies from this one place, like, well, that, that's all right. Like there is some, uh, overall, overarching commonalities between these people. And, and that's, that's what you need to find. So, I want to know right now, because there's, we were talking a little bit about overwhelm or opportunity, whatever we want to call it here.

Heather Lahtinen:

Adventure, right? Adventure, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Um, when it comes to business, I mean, that's a, that's an entirely different world from the technical side of photography, right? So, where should photographers who are looking to make money, I mean, just right now, be focusing their time and attention for success? Yeah.

Heather Lahtinen:

If I were a new photographer in this particular day and age, I would find a mentor. I would find a group or someone to connect with because part of the thing with imposter syndrome is you don't know what you don't know and you know you don't know it. But you don't know what it is. So if you have a mentor or a group that you trust that you can go to, I mean, there's plenty of them out there. So find one that you connect with, that resonates with you. And then, let them help you. I'm sure you have checklists for photographers, don't you, Raymond?

Raymond Hatfield:

Sure, yeah.

Heather Lahtinen:

Yeah, so you're willing to help people with these things. I wouldn't I okay There are two reasons why I went at it on my own, which by the way, i'm not proud of I think that I was very prideful and like, oh i'll figure this out, and also the resources just weren't available like they are now. So what I recommend to people is drop the pride And don't try to figure it all out. Just get some help and do that from someone who is just a few or several steps ahead of you there. Again, there are plenty of photographers out there that are willing to help you on your journey and give you the steps to do so. So I would find a photographer or a group that I connect with. And I would for, if I were starting a business, I would look for someone who has a focus on photography. Business, you know, the things around insurance and taxes and whether or not you're going to use QuickBooks or how are you going to track everything and how are you going to pay and you're going to get an accountant and what does that all look like? Are you going to be an LLC or sole proprietor? I wouldn't try to like research that to death on my own. I would just get some help. you'll get there so much faster.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, it's funny how much people are willing to hold themselves back without even knowing it because well, it's gonna save 'em $30. You know what I mean? Like I don't need to buy that. Oh, that makes me

Heather Lahtinen:

crazy. $30. You know? My dad used to say, do you have more time or do you have money?

Raymond Hatfield:

Mm-Hmm.. Heather Lahtinen: Because if you have learn, I use Photoshop as an example. 'cause Photoshop's pretty challenging. Yes. For, for people to learn. So Isaiah, if you wanna learn Photoshop, you can scour YouTube for hours, days. months, years. Oh yeah. And you wouldn't even be sure if you were doing it right. And it would be very disconnected and you would spin your wheels and you would waste a ton of time. Or you could spend, you know, 29 and buy a course and learn it in a weekend and get started with it, which ultimately Not only saves you time, but actually saves you a ton of money because spinning your wheels, whether people think it or not, spinning your wheels costs you money, spinning your wheels cost you money. I like that. That's a lot of

Heather Lahtinen:

money, a lot of money. And they're saying, well, I don't want to spend the 30 on the course or the book. So I'll just because it's free on YouTube.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Heather Lahtinen:

yeah. Okay, well, hold on. Let's back up. If you're not willing to invest in your photography, Okay. How can you ask other people to invest in you as a photographer? If you're not willing to spend money, but you you think other people should be willing to spend money on you I have found that the more I invest in myself in my business the more clients I get and the more money I make it Is proportional the more I spend the more I make because I learn I grow I implement better marketing tactics and then I get more clients and I make more money All And all of this is happening at a much faster rate because I'm investing, because the thing is, if you invest in a course. You're more likely to do it because you, you actually like invest in it. Like literally you put in money, right? You're not invested in YouTube. So what's your incentive to learn, except that you kind of want to learn it. I mean, there's nothing to push you, but if you're paying for it, you just, it pushes you a little bit more.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure that you get this as well, it's that like, I've offered several courses that I've created myself, one is called Auto to Amazing, which is to help you get out of auto and start taking, you know, better pictures, and then one that'll be coming out of very soon is called Lightroom 101, which is essentially just like how to create a Get started with Lightroom, like how to set it up, how to create, a workflow within Lightroom. And overwhelmingly, the biggest, objection that I hear is, well, there's so much free information on YouTube, about Lightroom. And it's interesting because I remember when I first started learning Lightroom, and I went to go look for a course. Online and I watched it was an hour and a half long tutorial somebody put in a ton of work into this thing And I was like, okay, I'm ready to go Let's get started and I opened up Lightroom and I had a totally brand new version that Everything that I had just watched was from an old version and was completely Completely different and I thought I should have just been you know The 30 or whatever to and then that's when I went on, you know Lynda. com or whatever it was at the time and I signed up and I got in on it but I'm happy that I did that because now photo organization and editing is not something that I ever have to think about again, and I can just get that done and focus on doing more tasks to either grow my photography and feel good

Heather Lahtinen:

about it, confident in it because you know how to do it. And that's because when you take a step by step proven system, you immediately have confidence. If you go scour YouTube. It's complicated. It's confusing and it leaves you feeling less confident than even before. So just investing a small amount will leave you with more confidence. You know what, Raymond? The funny thing is when Lightroom came out, I had Lightroom for free when it was first introduced because Adobe was giving it away at the, at the beta version before they released it full. And I wanted to test it. Well, Lightroom was a new product. There were exactly zero tutorials, zero, zero. So we had to figure it out on our own. This was 2006. I started using it. I just fumbled my way through it. I didn't know if I was using it right, but I didn't. Within six months, I started teaching it. I was actually teaching it physically out of my home and people, photographers were coming from my area to learn this new software, this Lightroom. And they're like, well, how did you learn it? And I'm like, Yeah, I just messed around until I figured it out. But that takes time, and it's frustrating, and it's confusing, and I wouldn't recommend it because you don't have to. It's not new anymore.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Yeah, it's not new anymore. I like that. Not new. Uh, we've been spending a lot of time today talking about imposter syndrome, talking about, this overwhelm that we feel and kind of how to get over it. Essentially, right? build something that we're proud of and start shooting and taking better pictures. But, I want to know, have you ever had a failure that actually set you up for better success as a photographer?

Heather Lahtinen:

Failure. Oh my gosh. I had something happen pretty early on in my career that's suuuper embarrassing, Raymond. I don't know that I've Ever in 17 years talked about this publicly. Oh my gosh. I double booked a wedding.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, no When did you find out tell me that it wasn't a day of?

Heather Lahtinen:

No, gosh, I caught it six months prior. So it was in time to fix. Well, somewhat remedy the situation, and I could make excuses. It was a hundred percent my fault. I actually had a bride that booked and changed her date. And when she changed to her new date, I sent her out a new contract and she never got it back to me. And so I hadn't put it, I had not put the new date on my calendar. I still had her old date, which meant that her new date was showing as open. So I booked it. It was Memorial Day weekend. And it was a very busy weekend for photographers, as you know. And, it was a Saturday. So these are both Saturday weddings and I stumbled across it, truthfully, by the grace of God, I just found it in my notes somehow. And I was like, She never said that contract. I never changed the date. This is a hundred percent my fault. I need to make some phone calls and I need to figure out what to do. By the way, whenever you have a challenge in your business with a client, I highly recommend picking up the phone. People don't do this. I get that you want to have things in email so that you have a record of it. And I think that that's smart to do after the phone call, follow up with the email so that you have it written, but always make it like, I'm not going to email my bride and say, Hey, I double booked your date. That would just

Raymond Hatfield:

be. Yeah.

Heather Lahtinen:

Careless of me. So, I called both of these brides and I was, to be honest, I didn't know the best solution in terms of which one do I shoot and which one do I help find another photographer. And I worked with them through that. I found another photographer, who literally in my mind is like hero status. I said, I'll pay you. Anything, whatever you want, you shoot it, I'll edit, I'll handle everything. I'm just so, so grateful. And my bride was just very gracious. I mean, I could not have been more lucky in terms of that, but that was a faux pas that was like, and I'm pretty tight with my organization. And I thought, Whoa. I better do something because if that happened to me for sure that can happen to anyone and that's when I I used back in the day. I was using tave for studio management So when once I implemented that and just got my systems a little bit a lot of it was on paper before that So I got it off of paper and a little more organized digitally then things like that Well, you know and the thing is I'm glad that that happened so early in my career. Yeah, guess what? It never happened again,

Raymond Hatfield:

right? Right, right. That's a big thing. I hear from photographers who it's like, some sort of studio management software. It's so expensive. You know, like I don't even know how I'm, going to continue to get bookings and I'm expected to pay 40, 50 a month for something like this, but right there, like, there's your proof right there. If you would have not showed up to that wedding and been sued for, say, you know, 2, 000, even just 1, 000. I mean, that is, that's like more than two years worth of studio management fees. So, just get it done. Just get it done. Get it done.

Heather Lahtinen:

Don't be a Heather. That's that's my advice. Don't be a Heather. If you need studio management, you know, get yourself something to help you. They're so robust these days and it makes your life so much easier. You don't have to remember to send contracts or payment information. It's all just taken care of for you and things are so organized. I see a lot of photographers that get busy really quickly. That's when things slip through the cracks and you just don't want that to happen.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, especially and I'll share this and then we'll get moving on. It's like right now, as I was telling you earlier, so many, not only 2020 brides, but 2021 brides are trying to book their wedding date for next year. Right now that there's just like this huge number of inquiries that are coming in, as opposed to the rest of the year, if I didn't have something set up to keep me organized. in fact, just the other day, I got an inquiry. I have two inquiries right now. For the exact same wedding date, and if, I didn't pay attention to that, and if the software didn't tell me, then I would just like, okay, yeah, I'm free, I'd look at the calendar, yeah, I'm free, to the first one, and then because they hadn't booked yet, I would tell the other one, yeah, I'm free, and then they would both book, and then it would be terrible, yeah, then it would be terrible. And five minutes after they paid the deposit, then I have to say, Hey, bad news, you know, and that's, that's never a good thing. You just

Heather Lahtinen:

don't want to deliver that news. You don't. You just don't. Yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

So, as far as I know that we are going super long here on, on how long we've been together. And I cannot believe how gracious you are with your time. And I have to say thank you so much for that. Thank you. But I have one more question for you before we go, and that is, earlier when I was telling you about, the listener, the photographer, the mom, who's right now currently still shooting with her phone, but is so motivated to move forward, right, shoot, what advice would you give her on getting started on a path in photography to help her move forward? Thank you.

Heather Lahtinen:

Wow. Where to even begin with something like that. So I'm going to assume dish, is it like families or children? She likes to photograph.

Raymond Hatfield:

Uh, it's mostly families. Yeah.

Heather Lahtinen:

Yeah. Yeah. So think if she's ready and we're interested, it's probably time to purchase a camera, you know? And at this point I actually, this is side note, I'm the director of education for our local camera store. It's called YM camera and they're amazing. And we just did a live video last. week and I asked Robbie who works there, one of the owners. And I said, when somebody comes in and they're asking for a camera, what are your feelings right now on DSLR versus mirrorless? And he said, I just don't see any downside to mirrorless. So if somebody is brand new and starting, I would recommend them a mirrorless kit. I would recommend either Nikon, Canon, or Sony have incredible mirrorless kits right now at I mean, affordable is different for everyone, but at least at prices that aren't, over the top. So, I would start looking at a camera, and here's the thing, if you don't know, or you can't afford it, could you rent? Because I know, specifically, that YM, and I know there are places online that do this as well, is renting the Nikon, Z 50 kit right now. I want to say it's like 50 for four days. Like it's very inexpensive So could you rent a kit and practice with your children or your friend's children and see what you think? And potentially look at purchasing a camera. I think that's going to be the first I mean, the next logical step for her, do you think?

Raymond Hatfield:

Buying a camera is probably the first logical step into becoming a photographer. Yeah. So once let's say that she decides to rent a camera, I kind of want to know, I guess I'll step a little back. I should have. Claire, I should have made the question a little bit better. Sometimes I ask very vague questions. as far as kind of the growth path goes, right, she's very excited in becoming a full time photographer. So let's assume that buying a camera and then learning photography is kind of that first step. What's the step after that?

Heather Lahtinen:

You know what? Photographers get really hung up right here and overwhelmed because they don't know what to do. Right. And you know what I tell them to do? Get your feet out there and get shooting. You need to photograph. I don't care if people are paying you or you're doing it for free. I think there's a time for each. And if you need to get out there and build your portfolio by photographing your, your family or your friends, kids for free, then get out there and do it because the only way you are going to learn and grow is by taking photos. You are a photographer. Photographer, get out there and take photos. You have to do that so that you can improve and get better. And also so that you have something to show people so that they can see what you're doing. And the truth is, I don't think that you need a bigger following. I think you need one client. I think that if I were to break this down and you know, I'm really. One of my approaches with the Flourish Academy is to like, I want to reduce overwhelm. I think, I feel like you're like this too. Like, you just want to, you want to take the intimidation factor out of it, right? So, why couldn't you start by just taking some photos, and literally creating a Facebook post, take some photos of your neighbor's kid, that camera comes in the mail, you take photos of your neighbor's kids, and you post a photo on Facebook, and you say, Hey, does anyone need family photos for their Christmas cards? I just want you to get one client. If you can get somebody to pay you, that's fantastic bonus points, but if not, and you do it for free, that's okay too. I did a couple of weddings for free before I was paid and that's fine. You know, I wouldn't, some people take that a little bit far and they continue to do it for free for too long, you know what I mean, but that's another discussion around money. But if you take, get one client, take one photo, post it, and just ask people and repeatedly post it and share it with everyone, that's fantastic. You'll find you just need one. You just, if you can get one or even a handful of clients that will produce more clients because word of mouth marketing is everything and people will talk. There is a book by Bob Bodine. And it's called the power of who, and the subtitle is why you already know everyone you need to know. I loved that book. So I think he would agree with me. I don't know, Bob, but I think he would agree with me. You don't need more followers. You, you already know everyone you need to know. You just need to photograph because they know people, you know, the whole six degrees of separation thing. Like so many, like the fact that you interviewed Jerry, like is amazing to me that I'm talking to you. You talked to Jerry is like, He's like my idol. Like, he's just amazing. You know? So everybody knows somebody and there's a connection somewhere. Just like me photographing for the March of Dimes walk of babies. There weren't brides there, but people know people getting married and that's how you get more. So think people focus on like, Oh, I need to post a photo. I need to get more likes or more people sharing it. I think you just need to get one client. I think you need to produce an amazing experience. I don't even care what your photos look like. Honestly, mine were terrible. It's just the experience and that you're trying and you have belief and conviction and passion and you're going to, which it sounds like this person does. Like they're going to make it happen. Then Pete, listen, people are looking, they are hungry for someone or something to believe in. if I left you with one thing today, just believe in yourself because nobody wants to hire an insecure photographer, just believe in yourself. It was about, I mean, Raymond, it makes no sense. How could I go from three weddings to 30? When my photos were terrible. I'm not trying to be like humble they I could show you they were awful And I honestly couldn't understand why people kept booking me and I thought maybe it's because I'm cheap, you know Maybe they just know that wasn't it It was it was conviction and conviction is what sells clients on you because every person you meet is a part of an audience that's observing you evaluating you and hoping that you're not To believe in you. So if you decide right now just to simply believe in yourself because you can't ask them to believe in you If you don't, but if you have that passion and conviction and belief, which by the way, I had more belief in myself at that point in time than I honestly should have, let's be honest, the photos were terrible, but I just, I believe that I could get better. I believe that I could learn if you just believe that people will be attracted to it and people will want to be around you. I think I did so well because I believed in myself and I had conviction and passion and I think people, it's. just magnetic. I think people it's contagious. People believed it because I believed it but I was very forthright about my my lack of ability with my brides early on. I told them i'm not I'm, not the best i'm just learning but I would love to shoot your wedding and I know that I can do my best and they liked being around me. So they told more people word of mouth marketing was how I built my business. I didn't have social media and I'm actually proud of that. And I'm glad I didn't. I think it makes it easier and more complicated at the same time.

Raymond Hatfield:

That right there is a whole nother episode all about social media, but there was, there was that tough love, Heather, that I, uh, that I was looking for this whole time, man, just get out and go shoot, shoot. That's right. That's right. Well, Heather, I really can't think of a better way to end this interview than that right there. I truly appreciate your time and everything that you have shared today. But before I let you go, can you please let the listeners know where they can find out more about you online?

Heather Lahtinen:

Oh, I would love that. So you can find me at flourish. academy. So listen, there's no. com there because it's the future. Okay. I didn't need a. com. Okay. It wasn't available. All right. Whatever flourish. academy. You can go there, but specifically if I had one request, I would really love for everyone to listen to my podcast, episode number 73 on imposter syndrome. So the whole episode is on imposter syndrome and how to overcome it. And I actually recorded that as an interview with our mutual friend, Nicole,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah, yeah, yeah. So

Heather Lahtinen:

she interviewed me for that. And I gave 10 tips for overcoming imposter syndrome. That's episode 73. Also, I have a, a quick free win for your audience. If they go to flourish. academy slash pricing, I have a free pricing one on one course, is just a quick video that they can watch. So if they're like, but I don't, I, but Heather, I really don't know where to start. Start. I just got my camera and I'm not sure what to do. This video is absolutely for them because what I encourage them to do is just get out there and shoot and you don't have to have everything perfectly figured out. I think that people want to know, like with pricing, for instance, they'll say, what's the right way to price or how should I price? But that assumes that there's a correct way. And with everything in photography and in life, Raymond, I don't believe that there's a right or wrong way to price. Decision There are just different choices that lead to different consequences. So you pick one. Maybe it doesn't work. Maybe you pivot. I don't know. But I think photographers hold themselves back with this fear of doing it wrong. And I'm here to tell you or encourage you You are not doing it wrong. You are doing it perfectly right based on where you're at at this time. And you're always in the right place at the right time under the right circumstances for your greater good.

Raymond Hatfield:

I hope that you enjoyed today's interview with Heather Lottman. I would love to hear your biggest takeaway, maybe a light bulb moment or something that you were going to start implementing into your photography. You can share it with me by heading over to the contact page over at beginner photography podcast. com and there you can either send me an email or better yet you can send me a voicemail. Voicemails allow me to share your thoughts or questions in your own words right here on an upcoming episode of the podcast. There's nothing to download and of course you can preview what you say before you hit send. So again, head over to beginner photography podcast. com to send in your voicemail now until next week. Remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.

Outro:

Thank you for listening to the Beginner Photography Podcast. If you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review in iTunes. Keep shooting and we'll see you next week.