How Everyday Photos Can Change Your Life with Jenny Stein

#477 In this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast, I chat with Jenny Stein, a heartfelt family documentarian photographer dedicated to capturing real emotions. Jenny reveals the challenges of maintaining a love for photography when it becomes a business and shares powerful insights on how photography can provide closure in times of grief. We dive deep into balancing conflicting emotions and the significance of capturing authentic moments, even during difficult times.

THE BIG IDEAS

• Balancing Emotions: Conflicting emotions can coexist in photography; both joy and sorrow are real and valuable to capture. This duality enriches your work.
• Authenticity in Moments: Authentic photos during difficult times can offer significant comfort and closure, preserving the true essence of the moment.
• Personal Connection: Personal losses and experiences shape your perspective and add depth to your photographs. Let your unique story enhance your creative vision.
• Evolving Perspectives: As you grow, allow your photography interests to evolve. Focus on what you're good at and what genuinely inspires you to keep the passion alive.

PHOTOGRAPHY ACTION PLAN

1. Capture Real Emotions: During your next shoot, create space for authentic moments by engaging with your subjects and encouraging natural interactions. Review your photos with a critical eye, selecting those that genuinely capture raw emotions and telling a compelling story.
2. Diversify Your Portfolio: Set up scenes that depict both joyful and solemn emotions. This practice will help you become more versatile and empathetic in your work. Gather these varying shots into a mixed portfolio to showcase your ability to capture the full spectrum of human experience.
3. Reflect on Personal Losses: Take some time to reflect on moments of personal loss. Consider how these experiences can inform and deepen your photography practice. Write down three ways in which these experiences can shape your approach to photographing others.
4. Engage in Personal Projects: Start a personal project focusing on a theme close to your heart, such as family moments or personal loss, and make it a point to capture these authentically. Share your project with a trusted group or online community to receive feedback and refine your narrative approach.
5. Embrace Daily Practice: Commit to a 365 project where you take a photo every day, focusing on capturing real-life moments. This consistency will improve both technical skills and emotional depth. Maintain accountability by joining a group or setting reminders, and reflect weekly on the emotional journey and learnings from your daily shots.

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Transcript

Jenny Stein: 0:03

With my 360 fives, I send an email out. They're like my mom and my dad and my sisters and my brothers and my neighbors, you know? But it's a small group. So many people thank me for those photos

Raymond Hatfield: 0:11

of your life.

Jenny Stein: 0:12

Yeah. And they're just like me. Seeing you see something nice about your day reminds me to see something nice about my day. One thing about email that's really nice, is I get emails back. It's not like comments on a photo. Mm-hmm. So people can write more personal things. So you just don't always know how it's gonna help people. But I feel like if you're coming from a place that are just like, I just wanna make your day the best it can be, then you'll, it will just help people.

Raymond Hatfield: 0:39

Hey, welcome to the Beginner of Photography podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield, and in today's episode, I chat with family documentary photographer Jenny Stein about why documenting your life matters in photography. But first, this episode of The Beginner Photography Podcast is brought to you by Cloud Spot. Sell your photos through prints, products, and of course digitals. Set up a storefront in minutes and start earning more with every single gallery you send. You can grab your free Forever Cloud spot account over@deliverphotos.com and only upgrade when you are ready. Now, Jenny Stein is one of the most thought provoking photographers who I've ever had the chance to chat with. In fact, there's a review that I remember, from Jenny's family photographer podcast that says, just listening to Jenny feels like talking with an old friend. And I can personally say that that's exactly how I felt actually chatting with her. In this interview, we talk a lot about balancing our own conflicting emotions such as joy and sorrow, and using them to capture authentic photos. We talk about personal connection with your subjects and how your own personal losses and experience shape your view and your perspective on the world and how that adds depth to your images as well. So we go deep. there's a lot in this one. in fact, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a tissue close by as well. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into this interview with Jenny Stein. As always, I'm just gonna give you a quick introduction and then No, you know what? I'm not gonna give you an introduction today. I'm not, we're gonna do it. Jenny Stein style. I'm not gonna give you an introduction, so we'll just start right here. Jenny, I'm gonna take a cue from you and ask you to tell me about a photo that you've taken recently that means a lot to you.

Jenny Stein: 2:25

Oh, oh boy. You're turning that now. I'm like, oh. Oh no, I'm doing, um, it's good because I'm doing a 365 project again. No surprise there. But, I actually didn't finish mine last year. I got three months, I think in still a hundred pictures about, but I stopped, I have a friend that does the 365 project and she says she never worries about one that she didn't finish.

Raymond Hatfield: 2:48

Mm-hmm. Because

Jenny Stein: 2:49

she feels like you still, like, just like I said, I was like, oh, I got a hundred pictures still, you know, in my last year's project. So anyway, so I started it. well, one picture, that's just fun. It doesn't mean a ton. Well, no, it does. It was nice. I took a picture of my daughter. I have a 16-year-old who just went to get her driver's test. Oh. And I didn't take my camera to the test with me. 'cause I didn't wanna, I didn't want jinx it to be honest.

Raymond Hatfield: 3:10

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 3:11

Um, I felt like that's too much. But before we left, knowing that I would need a picture for my project, I took a picture of her in the car, just like sitting out in front of our house and the expression she made, I'll send a picture, uh, for the, for you, but, It was so perfect. 'cause she's kind of smiling, kind of excited, kind of nervous, like all of it was there. It was just really great. And it was just sort of a, that's been a real big milestone, having her drive. And so I think that too, finding a way to, just to capture that moment, especially the moment right before is interesting to me more than the moment after. Like, she didn't know in that moment if she was gonna

Raymond Hatfield: 3:47

get it or not, if she

Jenny Stein: 3:48

was gonna get it or not, it's so nerve wracking. I mean, I took a driving test when I was, I used to drive a school bus. so I had to take a CDL test when, in a bus when after I'd been driving for a while. So even though I was a driver, so nerve wracking, so nervous driving test. And so I feel like that picture I'm really happy about having. And I don't think I would've bothered with it if I wasn't doing my project, which is why I love projects so much. It just pushes you that little bit,

Raymond Hatfield: 4:12

you know? So how did you take that photo? Did you say, Hey, look at the camera, smile for me? Or was it, did she naturally just look up and you snap the frame?

Jenny Stein: 4:20

And she knew I was taking, I think I probably said, I'm need to take a picture right before we go. And so she looked out, but it wasn't exactly, it was pretty natural what she ended up doing, you know? It was pretty much like, like I'm just a little smile, a little nervous. But yeah, I just, I, she knew I was taking the picture. She's looking right at me.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:38

And ultimately she passed.

Jenny Stein: 4:40

She did pass, she did just fine.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:43

Uhhuh. Yeah. Was there an after photo of the relief?

Jenny Stein: 4:45

There was. I took a picture with just my iPhone in the car, but she's holding her license. I realize I can't share that one at all. 'cause it has all of her information.

Raymond Hatfield: 4:54

That's that, yeah. That, that's, that's a good point.

Jenny Stein: 4:57

But anyway, but it was fun. Yeah. And so now, and now it sort of has affected our lives in a nice way. And that she takes the her sister to school and she can, she took my 11-year-old to his swimming. Swim team the other day. I just thought, oh my gosh. People kept telling me that it was nice. And all I could think of is like, it scares me to death. It's not nice to think of my kid being out driving. And now I'm like, oh, it's pretty nice.

Raymond Hatfield: 5:20

Yeah. so when I went to get my driver's test, like we didn't have iPhones and stuff, but like, I had like a razor phone or whatever, so there was still some sort of, there was like that possibility of teens like texting and driving, you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah. But now I. Like, I'm legitimately scared to be on the road because there's just so many more distractions and, I hate to, you know, so I'm like, oh, these darn kids or whatever. But it's like the kids just spend more time on their phones than we did. We, I feel like when I was in high school, we just sang songs in the car and, and like, that was it. And now it's like, kids are, you know, on Snapchat or, updating their Instagram. Like it's scary. And I worry about my kids growing up because they're three and seven, but I'm hoping that we get to the point to where like, Elon Musk's, like version of the world, like, comes to fruition and there's just no more drivers, right. And just everything's all automatic and we don't have to worry about it, and there's no more car accidents. And that's, that's what I get excited for. Yeah. But it's this moment in time, like right now, this 10,

Jenny Stein: 6:22

12 years? No, I think it's actually, I think it's better than it used to be. Mm-hmm. I think there's a lot more awareness about it teens. I mean, I think for my daughter. I'm obviously not in the car when she's driving.

Raymond Hatfield: 6:31

Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 6:32

But I feel like just in general, there was a stage before that people weren't quite as aware about how bad texting and driving was. Yeah. At least now they know

Raymond Hatfield: 6:39

they're still do. Do you know if they do any sort of like education in school and stuff?

Jenny Stein: 6:42

They don't at school, but she had to do. They should. Well, not at her school. They probably do it. Some schools I remember drivers. Oh, it was awful. They just showed you these videos of these accidents and people moaning and it goes terrible. Oh

Raymond Hatfield: 6:53

yeah. Yeah. Just

Jenny Stein: 6:54

makes you feel like, yeah, I know. I don't wanna accidents. I know that already.

Raymond Hatfield: 6:59

There was one, oh, what was it called? We had to watch. I remember it 'cause it was so cheesy. Oh, oh, I know. They were terrible. Red asphalt. Does that sound right? Red asphalt. I was just like, what? Like what a terrible name. like these scare tactics are, anyway, we're not talking about photography anymore, so. Let's get back onto the topic of the 365, because last time we chatted, you really pushed the power of the 365, right? this idea of taking your camera with you everywhere, taking a photo every day, and just seeing what it did for your photography. And after our interview, a lot of the listeners of the show were like, why don't we do something like this? And I was like, yeah, but go for it. You know, whatever. But it wasn't until this year that, Kimberly in the group was like, no, like, we're legit. We're making this happen. So this year we've been doing as a podcast community, a 365 project, and it's been fantastic. Yeah. And I have you to thank for that. 'cause, obviously you pushed so heavily like the, the powers of it, but. The whole idea of this interview that we're having right now that I want to learn from you is that season two of your podcast, you ask the question, how do you make the world a better place with your camera? Right? Like, how can you do good in the world with your camera? And I always think about the 365 project because it's how, by doing a daily photo, are you making the world a better place? And I know that you had Summer Kellogg on the show as well. Uhhuh Yeah. Who she was talking about doing the 365 project. So I wanna know from you personally, how has doing a 365 project for you made your life, better? How has it helped? Does that make sense? It does,

Jenny Stein: 8:41

it does. Well, it helps me. I focus at least for that little bit on something that I wanna remember for the day. Because everybody, I'm not saying that makes it sound like all my days are terrible, but most days are such a mix, right? Of, and we just, as humans, we focus on that negative, we have that negativity bias, right? Mm-hmm. That you, the end of the day you remember, uh, that went wrong. And uh, you know, and so instead at the end of the day, it's remembering like I already took my picture for the day today and it was just my daughter's, my 2-year-old was sitting in my 14-year-old slap and they was super cute. Mm-hmm. And I just, it actually, I just took a picture of their hair. 'cause they, one has brown hair and one has blonde hair and their head the way their heads were. And I mean, I feel like. It just lets you focus on those things that are going right, even if it's just one little thing. And I think I've gotten a lot more when I, the very first project I in, that was 2010, I think that's right. That when I, and I really was focused on my photography in that one, I really wanted a good picture and I probably would take a hundred pictures a day.

Raymond Hatfield: 9:44

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 9:45

Now it's maybe 15 at the most. Mm-hmm. I feel like sometimes it's five. And that's just because I've gotten a, I'm a more competent photographer, but I also know I've gotten past wanting to impress anybody. Like I think I wanted to, the first one I had this feeling like, I wanna show these. I wasn't doing it with a lot of people. I think there were about five of us that were doing it together, but we were all really into photography and I really wanted to be like, I'm a good photographer. And, um, it did make me a much better photographer, but it was a lot more effort the first time. So it depends on what you're focusing on. And I think it's great for focusing on photography skills as well. Like I think it was what helped me learn how to use Lightroom, that first one this year. I keep thinking to myself, I don't know, here's a little thing about me. I don't use Photoshop at all, dunno how to use it. And um, but I saw, I see my daughter use it. I'm like, I could do this. Like, I just haven't done it. I feel like anything that you do, just a little at a time and that's what's so nice about a 365 is that you're just doing one photo. If, you know you edit weddings, like how many photos do you shoot with someone else when you do weddings?

Raymond Hatfield: 10:51

Mm-hmm. Typically, no.

Jenny Stein: 10:53

And, I'm not gonna say I made the mistake. It was super fun. I did, I shot a wedding with my sister, I had her be a second shooter and I, it was so fun and so fluid 'cause she's my sister. So we were just passing camera. I'm like, do you have the 85? Can I see 85? Do you have, you know, like we were just so, it was so easy 'cause we know each other so well. Then I got back and I was like, oh, twice as

Raymond Hatfield: 11:12

much. So many photos. Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 11:14

This is not anticipated. Okay, when you put yourself in a situation when you're editing, even if it's your kid's birthday and you're editing a hundred pictures, it's too many.

Raymond Hatfield: 11:23

It is.

Jenny Stein: 11:24

You're gonna get overwhelmed and usually you wait until the last minute where you're like, I need to edit these photos 'cause there's a sale on books and I need to get the book laid out in a week. And so I'm gonna edit these. It's, that's what everybody, I mean, I know that's what everybody does. And then you make editing a terrible nightmare. Mm-hmm. Um, but if you're doing a 365, you're just like, I'm just gonna choose one of these pictures I took. I'm gonna edit this one photo. I mean, I learned so many things about Lightroom, just editing one photo and I wouldn't edit photos like I used to either. But I learned a bunch of stuff. I just, yeah, you're right. I mean, I can't say enough that I like about 3, 6, 5, but I also, it feels like it. The other thing, when you talked about it helped me shoot in all kinds of lighting situations too. 'cause you're, I. Uh, just taking your camera in all these different situations and trying different things. So then when I was put in different situations for, the one I was thinking of, the particular situation was the very first time I was called to do a photo where someone's, it was a bereavement session. So a family was, the baby was still alive, but wasn't going to continue to be. And that's rough. It was, yeah. So it was my friend who's a midwife, called me and said, this is happening. Can you come? And we had talked before about that I might be willing to do that, but what I realized in that moment was that because I was so used to shooting in different situations because of my 365, the lighting where I was, was not a challenge. Like I didn't have to think about that. And that was actually from all the practice. Mm-hmm. In different situations and not from, 'cause if you're doing photos every day, you're gonna have some days that you're out in the bright sun. I mean. I'm in Pittsburgh, so we're not gonna have bright sun all the time. I mean, if you're in Arizona, you just have to figure out how to shoot the bright sun, but you know what I mean? So I feel like it's done so much. it's just is, it's the thing that helped me learn more than anything else.

Raymond Hatfield: 13:11

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well by the time this comes out, we're more than a month in. Yeah. But, one of the things that I've noticed is obviously when you start a 365, so many people are like, yeah, let's do this. Yeah. This is so exciting. And then as time goes on, it slowly starts to drop off. And one of the, not complaints, but it just, the feedback that, you know we're getting is that it's hard. It's hard to take a photo every day, you know? So what is it that, that you find hard about doing a daily photo project as somebody who, last year you said that you made it three months, you know? Yeah. What was it that stopped you? Or, or what happened?

Jenny Stein: 13:44

Oh, I just got things just got, it's funny, I mean, anything can happen. This happened with my, the podcast that happened. Like sometimes it'll just be like a, a little storm kind of throws off your routine of mm-hmm. That's all that happened last year is that I got through March and then there was the girls spring break. So I was very, I had this, this is actually something really to think about, like if you're, how much like give your workflow has, or like the time that you have to give to your project. Mm-hmm.

Raymond Hatfield: 14:09

So

Jenny Stein: 14:10

I was doing it always at the same time. I had this afternoon time when my youngest was napping and I would edit the photos and that's the only time I could figure to give to it. 'cause everything was so busy otherwise

Raymond Hatfield: 14:19

Uhhuh. Okay.

Jenny Stein: 14:20

Then my kids were on, I went, on a trip with my girls for spring break, but then the kids were on spring break and my kids had two different spring breaks. Three different, I feel like. I had kids in three different schools last year, so all of a sudden it was like

Raymond Hatfield: 14:31

a month long spring break. I

Jenny Stein: 14:32

had all this spring break time when somebody was home and I didn't have that nap time anymore. Mm-hmm. And then, so I kind of lost my time for it and then I just kind of just stopped doing it and, but I, I missed it. Like, I felt like I, by the end of the year I was hardly picking up my camera and I was feeling like, oh man, I just don't want that. it was okay in a way. I don't feel like you always need to be taking pictures, but for me, there's something when I'm at least doing a little bit, that makes me, it is a way, it's like if you're a writer and you're not writing and it just feels like, you know, you just miss it or whatever the thing is that you do.

Raymond Hatfield: 15:52

Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 15:52

it just, I missed it and I felt like I'm not gonna get it. Just, I know for me it's a great way to do it. Just say, yep, I'm gonna just do it every day. Even if, and now I'm a little more, I'm trying to be a little more flexible about when I do my photos. So you have to as

Raymond Hatfield: 16:04

far as when you edit them?

Jenny Stein: 16:05

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 16:06

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 16:06

Yeah. When I take them, it's whenever during the day, but, I try to get one in the morning. It's hard with the kids all being in school. There's not much going on during the day sometimes, you know? Yeah. Every week's outta the house, but it's okay. You can always still find something. but it does get hard. That first couple weeks is so exciting.

Raymond Hatfield: 16:22

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And

Jenny Stein: 16:23

everybody's there and they're commenting on each other's pictures are we so excited. That cannot last.

Raymond Hatfield: 16:28

Right.

Jenny Stein: 16:28

It's super fun. Where do people in your, community, where are they sharing their photos

Raymond Hatfield: 16:33

in a separate Facebook group?

Jenny Stein: 16:35

Okay.

Raymond Hatfield: 16:35

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 16:36

And did people comment on each other's photos and

Raymond Hatfield: 16:38

Yeah. for the most part, it's not everybody every day, but, uh, I would say that there's a good, a good interaction. definitely people are commenting. I try to, you know, I try to make it a point to comment on everybody. Are you pictures every day? I am. I, so this is how the whole thing started is because you were talking about it and so many other photographers were talking about it. And I remember doing one a long time ago, and the reason why I stopped doing it was simply because I just tried to outdo myself every day. Yeah. And that, that was like a, this creative trigger that just burned me out Yeah. Every single day. Like, I have to create a masterpiece. It's great

Jenny Stein: 17:10

that you recognize that.

Raymond Hatfield: 17:11

Yeah. Well, it, it wasn't like, till 10 years later that I recognize this, you know? So I had told myself, I'm just going to just take a photo every day and I'm not going to give myself a any sort of limitations. I'm not going to, stick to a formula. I'm not going to stick to a theme. if there's a theme and I decide to follow it, I will do that. But every day what I want to do is I just wanna take a photo. And I wasn't even gonna share these photos. They were just gonna be for myself personally. And then, because the feedback of the group, it was like, no, you know, maybe we should turn this into a, uh, a group thing. And I think that it's, it's been great because it, it's been holding me accountable. Yeah, yeah. You know, with the other people there. Did you find the same thing?

Jenny Stein: 17:51

Oh yeah. Yeah. And you as the, as the leader of the group, you're the most accountable?

Raymond Hatfield: 17:56

No, well, it's not me, which is great. Which is great. It's, it's Kimberly who has taken over. That's right. This whole thing. She started it. And she's been taking it over, which has been fantastic. And I think maybe that's why I don't wanna say that I don't feel resentment towards it, but now it's almost like I know that it's going to be there. This isn't any additional work. Now I'm free to just capture and then share.

Jenny Stein: 18:17

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 18:18

I'm not sure, but I still, I, I do feel that accountability, I do feel that accountability, which I like. Accountability

Jenny Stein: 18:22

is, I think if you have, even in a group, I have a group on Flickr that's I think about 40 people

Raymond Hatfield: 18:28

mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 18:28

This year. And, um, but that's kind of, I feel like even if you have two or three people who you're connected with, that are gonna notice when you don't post a photo for a week, just to check in with you and see are you behind, are you quitting? What are you doing? Mm-hmm. like not with a lot of judgment, just with curiosity. Yeah. Just like, what's going on? I haven't seen any pictures. And you get to know people. I love one thing. Okay. So one thing to realize that it's worth sticking with it, especially if you're doing it with a group of people, is you get to know them. You can see their photo, and before you see their name, you're like, I know whose picture that is.

Raymond Hatfield: 19:01

You

Jenny Stein: 19:02

know, and not because it, it might just be, it's either be. The best is if it's because of their style. Like you can be like, that's their style, but you also just know, oh, that's their kid. Or that's, clearly in, Southern California, that's where they are, those different things. So there just can be this really great thing in a group and that it's just something worth sticking with to make those connections with people.

Raymond Hatfield: 19:23

Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. And it, it reminds me of a quote, which, this wasn't meant to be a segue, but it's a perfect segue. Okay. Recently again, I was listening to your interview that you had with Kristen Kalp, and there's a line that she says when she's talking about taking photos, because I believe that you asked her about taking photos of family and friends, and she's like, well, you know, I'll take selfies with people, but I don't, I will refer them out to like a, I don't know, a better photographer or a more competent photographer. But what she said is, I use a camera as a shortcut to the present. And not as an archival tool. And to me, that really stood out to me in the context of doing a 365. Yeah. So can you tell me what, when she said that, or hearing it again, like what does that mean to you?

Jenny Stein: 20:05

I love that and that's, I mean, I feel like I'm right there with her with that, although, well, I'm noticing that when I write about my photos, I'm using it like a journal. Like I want to remember little details about the kid. Yeah. So I am using, I've been my whole parenting career, I think it's funny to call it a career, but whatever. Um, the whole time I've had kids, I've been bad at being, writing down the funny things I say and do, but there's something about if I write just a few sentences under a picture just to remember something that maybe isn't in the picture, but it's connected to the picture.

Raymond Hatfield: 20:35

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 20:35

Then I am using it a little bit like a journal, like my daughter was playing in an antique car at this place that is near us, and then she was pretending that she went shopping and she's like. And told me what she got and everything. So under the photo I wrote about that I wrote, we went to the store, she got blueberries, she got, you know, and just talked about all the different things that she did. So in that way I use it like an archival tool in that. And I don't know. So the reality is for me that in some way it is a way of looking back at the year.

Raymond Hatfield: 21:06

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 21:06

And sometimes there are things that I'm like, I wanna remember this. Whether it's a milestone I can see coming up or, just so I think I, unlike Kristen, I think I use it both ways. So I think, but it does, as far as the shortcut to the present, I do feel like, it can really help you just look at something that you might otherwise have or just pause a little bit and look at that. You might have just. C seen, but kind of went kind of quickly over. It helps you, your camera can help you pause in that moment and see something like, I probably would not have seen I, okay. So this morning the, picture I talked about with my daughters sitting at the table, I think I would've seen it, but I would've just been like, oh, cute. And then went on and it was nice to take a little bit longer to really look and think, oh, that's really neat. And it's neat to see an older kid with such a young sibling. I feel like there's something that, the baby, she's not really baby anymore, but we call it that. But she, that she brings out in the older ones, that I love. Just seeing that whenever I see it, I wanna, I just take a, like, pause. My oldest daughter who's, she's almost 17 and she was playing last night, this funny game and they were both laughing and laughing and laughing and it was just so fun to watch. I did take a little video of that actually, 'cause of the laughing, I wanted the, I wanted the sounds of them laughing.

Raymond Hatfield: 22:26

Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 22:27

So I took a little video of that. So I don't, I feel like when it's nice, I think the pressure, the biggest problem is the pressure. If you put too much pressure on yourself, like you were saying, that idea to be

Raymond Hatfield: 22:38

in the moment or to take a photo every day.

Jenny Stein: 22:40

No, the kind of photo in my mind what happened is I was thinking of, I do this, this is a bad habit I have when I'm talking is like, my mind's going so fast that like I, I, I understood the connection between what I said. 'cause I was like, oh. So when I, when my daughter was running around and they were laughing, laughing, laughing. I wanted the sound, but also I could see that the photo, it would be really hard to get a good photo of what was going on. And so it wouldn't mean that I wouldn't do it, but I just, then it made me think about that idea of a good photo. Mm-hmm. And if we put too much pressure, I think if people put, you have to decide if you, obviously you wanna try if you wanna make your photos better, you know, it just depends. What do you want from your project? Is it about making your photos better? For some people, that's not what it's about at all. Right. I think that they naturally will get better.

Raymond Hatfield: 23:28

Mm-hmm. ' Jenny Stein: cause you'll, But anyway, so as far as, I don't know where I'm going now, but I just, yeah. I feel like it does help me be more present and especially at the, when I'm looking back at the photos, just even just a week I got behind in posting them. Even though I was taking them, even just three weeks into the project, I got a week behind posting them, which I think, again, once you've done a few, you can see that that's not a big deal. Here's, oh, here's one thing about 360 fives, and this is a problem that's unsolvable about them. You can't get ahead, but you can get behind. Yeah, that's very true. That's very true. Super easy to get by. That's kinda back to that whole point of like using your camera as a shortcut to the present, is that now you have to force yourself to take that breath and to think even, 'cause you can still think ahead, right? Oh yeah, yeah. You can think ahead to what could happen that day, what could be happening tomorrow. And I'm finding that, I think what's hard for me is that when you start in the winter, essentially, you know, yeah. January, it's like you don't get out much. So it's like you go a week and you go a month and you're like, okay, I kind of struggled. But then come February, it's. Okay. Now I feel like I'm taking the same photos again, like they're still inside of the house unless we go out to the store and then like, that's really it. But still thinking ahead to like, well, what might be happening next week, what might be happening in the next few days that I can kind of plan. But you're right, you can't actually get ahead unless you cheat. Right. In which case it's right. I know. I, uh, just, well, at the time that we're recording this yesterday, I got back from imaging USA, which was down in Nashville. And I thought to myself, because the day before I went down there, I just had a lot of work. I wanted to get caught up before I went down to Nashville for, I was there for four days and I was like, I'm probably not gonna do much work. But you know what, I'm not going to do a photo today. No, I'm sorry. I didn't, I didn't consciously think to myself, I'm not gonna do a photo today. But it was the end of the day and I gave myself that permission to say like, oh, that's okay. I didn't get one. That's okay. I was getting prepared for the next few days where I'm definitely gonna have some great photos. Yeah. And while I was in, I didn't take a single photo with my camera. All I did was take selfies with other people who, like I admired. And, yeah. It wasn't until the end that I realized, I was like, oh, wow. I, I pretty much just took a week off of the 365 and it wasn't until, yesterday, January. Yeah. yeah. Already in January. But it, it gets back to that whole routine. Like being thrown off by your routine. Yeah. Which is so, um, I mean, it can get to you, it can really throw a wrench in things.

Jenny Stein: 26:01

One thing I wanna, I do, something I didn't mention, or I don't know if I mentioned it before, is I take a day off every week.

Raymond Hatfield: 26:06

Oh really?

Jenny Stein: 26:07

Yeah. I take two photos Saturday and don't take any Sunday. I.

Raymond Hatfield: 26:10

So this is a conscious decision that you

Jenny Stein: 26:12

Yeah. Well, yes. 'cause I, I remember in my first one, I was thinking about realizing it took until this was July, I remembered this 'cause I was at this camp, and it was, I realized I had this feeling. I'm like, oh, there's a picture every day. Like it will be there. Mm-hmm. If I show up. Like, I kind of just, it took me until July to really trust, and this is my very first one to just be like, oh, just get your camera out. It'll be fine. and then I thought of it like the story in the Old Testament about manna.

Raymond Hatfield: 26:41

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 26:41

So that there's every day they went out and could the children of Israel could collect Vanna. And then I reread the story and it said that they collected twice as much. Saturday. It wasn't really Saturday, but you know what I mean, like twice as much the day before the Sabbath. Yeah. And then on the Sabbath, they didn't collect any, but if they tried to

Raymond Hatfield: 26:58

do that every day, like

Jenny Stein: 26:59

extra uhhuh, it would go bad. They were not allowed to do that. I see it would get rotten or something. So that story is when I started to do another one. I thought, oh, I'm gonna try that. I'm gonna try just so I actually, some people take a day off, people have done all kinds of things and you just have to see this is just what works for me. Yeah. But I'm not super strict. 'cause I went to a birthday party on a Sunday. I had a picture, I had two pictures for from Saturday if I needed them. But then on Sunday I went to a friend's, her 2-year-old was turned, was having his birthday. And it, there was this picture I just absolutely loved that I just took, 'cause I wanted to take pictures for their family. Mm-hmm. So I loved it and I used it on, so I'm not, you know, the thing people get so tied up on rules. I mean, it's your project, everybody. Yeah. You have to create your own. It's not like the driver's test where there are strict rules there.

Raymond Hatfield: 27:49

That's a great point.

Jenny Stein: 27:50

You really have to decide what works for you and what works in January might be different in the summer. Mm-hmm. Like, you have to just be, I think there's this tension with a project between flexibility and routine that's really interesting. so I feel like, but that routine for me of having a day that I consciously put my camera down every week has been really nice and I. I really like it and I, I sometimes see things that day that I would take a picture of. Mm-hmm. And I don't, and I like that too,

Raymond Hatfield: 28:20

because you choose not to.

Jenny Stein: 28:22

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:22

You, you give yourself that, that free pass for the day. Yeah. I'm

Jenny Stein: 28:24

just like, I'll just look at it. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:26

Yeah. I'll just enjoy this,

Jenny Stein: 28:27

which is good as well.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:28

Yeah. There's so much there to, to really unpack. I mean, absolutely right. When it comes to coming up with those hard and fast rules, it's really not hard and fast. And I think that's what makes photography so hard is that it's so subjective and it depends so much on yourself and what it is that you feel about a photograph and how you feel and how you take images. Like there are photographers out there who are fantastic photographers, and I look at the way that they take their images and I think to myself, I could never do, like, I don't want to do that. You know what I mean? Okay.

Jenny Stein: 28:59

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 28:59

And then they look at me and think like, oh, I would never wanna do that. But that doesn't mean that it's not right for me. And that doesn't mean that what they do isn't right for them. And it's finding that balance and not giving up right away. Right. I'm going to edit out this clip of the, uh, of our show and post it in our group today to give people that motivation. Oh, good. Because so, I'll say one more thing before we move on. Before, we had decided on doing this 365 project, I asked in the main group, who would be interested in this? And people said, either yes or no. like a ton of people said, yes, absolutely. And then I said, okay, would you rather have themes or no themes? And it was kind of, it was kind of evenly split. Some people said, having a theme would really force me to take better photos and would challenge myself. And then other people like myself said, no, I don't want a theme. I don't wanna be tied down. And then other people were like, yeah, I definitely wanna do this every day. But other people were like, no, I only wanna do this once a week. Like, there's no way that I could take a photo every day and I was racking my brain on how to make this work for everybody. And ultimately it's a free for all. It has to be. Oh, yeah,

Jenny Stein: 30:00

yeah. Absolutely. Because you have

Raymond Hatfield: 30:00

to play by your own rules and it's all, it's all personal and nobody,

Jenny Stein: 30:03

yeah. yeah, I think about that all the time. Like nobody else is counting your pictures. Like noticing if your numbering's off, it's easy in January, but it gets harder later. Um, where you'll feel like your numbers, you're like, you're like, was that, is that the right day? And, um, nobody else is noticing because it really, it is your, yeah. It's your project. Yeah. And to feel like there is just the tension between, if you are so loose, you'll just forget that you're doing a project and you won't, you'll go a week without taking pictures. You'll be like, oh, right. I was doing a project.

Raymond Hatfield: 30:35

Because there's no weight behind it. There's no accountability. Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 30:37

But if you're too hard on yourself, you'll miss a day. And then you'll be like, Ugh, I'm just not, that's point. I may as well give up.

Raymond Hatfield: 30:43

Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 30:43

That's the point. So many people give up after a week. Yes. Of not like, something happens like I did here. I'm saying it, I mean like after that, in March last year where I was just like, Ugh. I just, ugh. And just starting up again, you know? But it, it, I don't know. Yeah. You need to, uh, I didn't not start 'cause I was super hard on myself. I think I just didn't start again, you know? Yeah. But I think So what are you gonna do this year? Come March? Well, oh, good question. I should be thinking about

Raymond Hatfield: 31:08

that. You gotta be prepared.

Jenny Stein: 31:09

I have, um, well, one thing is part of the spring break part of the daughter spring break. I'm going on a trip. Mm-hmm. So that'll be, I won't be posting when I'm on the trip, but I'll actually be taking photos for sure.

Raymond Hatfield: 31:19

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 31:20

Yeah, I haven't thought about it, but I think that I, that's good to think about. Think ahead and think to the summer. Like thinking about not I. It's good to just realize that things change. Like you're in a routine and the routine feels super solid, but it's not. And so to, I remember talking to someone and just saying, oh, she said to me, she's like, seems like you need more margins in your life. like enough space for things to go wrong, you know? And I think, I'm like, yeah, I do. But I mean, it's good to think of it that way. I think the same's true about a project, like you need to figure out how to, have some space where you can. I think the thing that will work better is I'm not entirely depending on time that kids are all like, I'm totally alone to do my editing. Yeah. And posting. That's what I was doing. I had this feeling like I wanted to always do it when I wasn't, didn't wanna be on my computer when the kids were around. I wanted to just, you know, so it's just, I have to be more flexible if I'm gonna have it keep working.

Raymond Hatfield: 32:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm facing this weird thing right now where it's like, I want to, 'cause I'll take photos throughout the day and then at the end of the day I will, I'm actually editing all these photos on my iPad. I'm trying to do That's great. Something that is different so that it doesn't feel like work in the way that I edit weddings, I suppose. Yeah. Anyway, so it's just like that little change up really helps me, I think. But, I'll take photos throughout the day, and then it's not until eight or nine o'clock where I will plug in the memory card to my iPad and then start editing photos. And then by that time, I'll post it on Facebook. And I think to myself, if I posted this earlier, I'd get better engagement and I'd be doing this and I'd be doing that. And then it'd be more impactful. Right. And then it's, and then it's lost. it's power, I suppose. I don't know.

Jenny Stein: 33:01

Wait, what? Where I was going, it's power.

Raymond Hatfield: 33:02

because the point for me to do the 365 was simply for myself. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I wanted to do. So Really? Yeah. You can't go into

Jenny Stein: 33:10

that. You can't. I, as soon as you start saying, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You,

Raymond Hatfield: 33:12

yeah, yeah, exactly. You think

Jenny Stein: 33:13

about when you're posting it and what, I mean, that's your podcast. It does matter for you. Yeah. Yeah. But I think with your photo, it has to just, and realize they're, you're putting them up every day.

Raymond Hatfield: 33:23

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 33:23

some people in my group, and sometimes this helps too, is if you end up posting yesterday's photo, like to get yourself so that you edit your photo. Mm-hmm. But then you post it the next day. Hmm. And that, that can be helpful. I've known people in my group that do it that way.

Raymond Hatfield: 33:39

There are a few people who, uh, yeah. Who do it that way. And

Jenny Stein: 33:41

there's the other thing I wanted say when you were saying that Free for all, because that's true in my group, the group I have on Flicker too, where some people are doing weekly photos. Mm-hmm. People do all kinds of different things and it just doesn't matter. You just have to, I do like it in my group. I like it if people number their photos, just so not, I don't care which number they're on. I like to know, like if they put, this is number 11 of 360 6 or is this three of 52? Mm-hmm. Like, 'cause they're different projects, so it's nice to know what they're doing. And that's kind of my, I like enjoy it when people say that because I'm like, okay, now I know that they're doing a 365 project or 360 6 this year. Yeah. And uh, I know people keep saying it's really 360 6.

Raymond Hatfield: 34:20

Yeah, I know. Yeah. But, you know, one extra day point, I get it. It

Jenny Stein: 34:22

doesn't matter. I know.

Raymond Hatfield: 34:23

Yep. Huh. Yeah, I mean, it's been a lot of fun. It's been a lot of fun. But we've been talking about this far longer than I had anticipated. what I really wanted to talk to you about is, because you've been on the show before and you've shared a bunch, and we always have a great conversation, but I think we, your podcast, the Family Photographer Podcast, season two mm-hmm. Was 11 of my favorite podcast episodes I had ever heard of any podcast. Oh. And I think that it's because you went at it with a specific mindset of, how do you make the world a better place with your camera? What are you doing to leave this planet better when you leave by, you know, before what, whatever the sentiment, like better than how you found it. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And one thing that I found, which was really interesting is that all, every single one of your episodes dealt with. I just read this book called The Question Behind The Question, have you heard of it?

Jenny Stein: 35:20

No, but it sounds great.

Raymond Hatfield: 35:21

So it's all about, like, it's someone who loves asking questions. I'm like, oh, tell me more. I don't think that it really, helps in terms of like podcasting, it's all about like personal accountability. Mm-hmm. But a lot of the examples were like, if you are in a job, it's very easy to think like, well, why won't marketing do this? why don't we have enough people to help us on this team? Why? And it's not taking that personal accountability, you know? Okay. But then there's always a question behind that question, which is like, what can I do to help out this situation? and figuring out how you can be helpful as a human. So, not that any of that applies to, to season two, but, the question behind the question of how can you make the world a better place, I found was just the overall theme of dealing with the difficult. Hmm. It seemed like everybody who you talked to didn't start doing something with their camera for good until they were put in some sort of difficult situation. Mm-hmm. And this I found extremely interesting. Extremely interesting. And in fact, you yourself had a little quote I wrote this down because it really made a big impact on me. I don't remember exactly who it was that you were talking to. 'cause for some reason I didn't write it down, but you were talking about when I believe your grandmother passed away and you said, when somebody dies, it is such a unique group of people who gather together that you have to capture that. Yeah. And it wouldn't have happened unless something difficult happened, so, right. Yep. Now there's a lot of questions that I have about dealing with the difficult, but now that I've brought that up, the dealing with the difficult, what does that mean to you in terms of your photography?

Jenny Stein: 36:59

Oh wow.

Raymond Hatfield: 37:00

that was a long question. I apologize for that.

Jenny Stein: 37:02

No, don't apologize at all. It was great. well, I really, I remember talking, I think it was Summer Kellogg, I was talking about when we, we ended up being like, yeah, photography's about loss, isn't it? not always, but often that there's a lot. my friend just sent me a picture just, she was going through photos when her daughter turned 11 and it was a birthday, so they were going through an album of mm-hmm. When she was pregnant and having that baby and stuff. And she was just like, really? It was neat to look back on those photos. So it's interesting, all the different kinds of loss. I mean, sometimes it's just, you're a kid that used to look a certain way. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 37:34

Looks different. Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 37:35

As a kind of, I had someone just contact me about making portraits for their family, and one of the reasons was that they are, they're like, I know they're gonna lose their baby teeth soon, so I wanna get a picture before those baby teeth are gone. Wow. 'cause their face totally change Right. When they get those. Big old adult teeth in their little faces. It's different.

Raymond Hatfield: 37:52

So there's also a 7-year-old with no forefront teeth. I totally understand that right now. It is hilarious.

Jenny Stein: 37:57

It's so funny. but I mean, so I've been a little more aware and honest about like my photography started because a dear, dear friend of mine died when I was 17. And I was already into photography. I was working on the yearbook and everything, and he was somebody I spent a ton of time with and I didn't take any pictures. So this is before cell phones though. So like, I, it's so funny when I say that now I feel like the idea of my daughter not having pictures with her friends is ridiculous, right? Because they take pictures together all the time. But that was not, this is 1989. So. It was, it was different. and I just didn't think to take pictures. I didn't think to take pictures of him. And I also didn't think to take, I definitely didn't think to take pictures together. Mm-hmm. And he died suddenly in an accident. And I was totally like, I did not have, I mean, what I wanted partly 'cause it was so, sort of, there was this feeling like, what did I lose? and so I felt like if I had just had a photo of us laughing, which is what we always did, like one of my memory is just like laughing and laughing with this person. And I just spent time this summer with his family and I'm like, oh yeah, they laughed so much. Like that's why I had that memory. And so I remember feeling like that's the photo I wanted was of us laughing like, 'cause it would give me something to hold onto, like this sort of feeling like, yeah, it was real. What I lost was real. 'cause it felt really intangible and I was really young. so I didn't want my story about why I took pictures to be a sad story.

Raymond Hatfield: 39:27

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 39:28

It was interesting. I remember saying that to a friend. I was like, I wish I was one of those people who was like, I had my first kid and they were so beautiful. And I'm like, uh, no. Really good friend of mine died in a backpacking accident when I was 17. So I realized I better take pictures of people that I love. Yeah. You know, like, but that's really why I started to make sure that I had pictures of my friends with me and it started to make me care about photos that people were together into, like, that there was not just that person. And it's still something that's a passion of mine is like when a photo that you can really see a real emotion and real connection. That's still what I care about. And it goes back to that same thing.

Raymond Hatfield: 40:07

What do you think a photograph would give you that, that your memory of this person, which is, in a sense, more real, can't give you.

Jenny Stein: 40:14

It's a good question, and I remember feeling that way. We talked about that wedding

Raymond Hatfield: 40:19

mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 40:20

That they didn't have pictures. And I remember being like, yeah, they didn't have pictures, but they had a real experience.

Raymond Hatfield: 40:24

Exactly.

Jenny Stein: 40:25

But I think in my case, I felt like it was really, I don't, I felt like, and I don't know if this is true. Well, it's definitely true. Okay. So I've done, I don't volunteer with, now I lay me down to sleep anymore, which is an organization that does photos specifically. It's not always stillbirth, but it's often, it's very sad. And those people, I mean, those, that's kind of the only time like that, that's a situation where you can see that, like to other people, this baby that was born isn't gonna be real to them. Yes. Because nobody saw it. But the parents basically, and the people at the hospital. And in a similar way, a friendship with someone. I think there was a, for my 17-year-old self, there was a need to be able to say to someone, I am so sad because look at what I lost. I'm gonna start crying.

Raymond Hatfield: 41:13

Oh wow.

Jenny Stein: 41:13

It's okay. Um, that's

Raymond Hatfield: 41:15

really powerful.

Jenny Stein: 41:16

But I feel like I couldn't, I didn't understand why I was so sad. Mm-hmm. And obviously that kind of tragedy at that age is, very baffling. So there's a lot of reasons that loss was hard. But I think that what I wished for is this way of saying this. he was such a good friend. This is what I lost. Like you can see what a good friend he was. Oh, wow. But it felt like I was the only one that knew how close we were. And I felt like, and I, maybe it wouldn't have, that's kind of like my imagination of what it would've done. But another story that's sad that is connected with this and photography, and this is actually something that goes back to that season of the podcast when I said, my idea was like, how does photography help at that friend's house after, so they had a service for him, and then a bunch of people came back to his house and I was in the kitchen and there was a photo of him in the kitchen and I was just holding it and crying, and someone took it from me and said, that's, I have your

Raymond Hatfield: 42:15

hands.

Jenny Stein: 42:16

she took it and she was like, that's not gonna help. And I was like, there's part of me that that feeling like, yeah, photography does help, goes back to that moment of having someone tell me it's not going to.

Raymond Hatfield: 42:28

Oh, wow. Wow. First of all, thank you for sharing that. that was an incredible explanation of a question that I didn't think was gonna go as deep. And, really appreciate you opening up and Yeah. And sharing that. Yeah. I've never had a, a personal loss like that, I've never experienced anything like that. but as somebody who understands photography and the power, and as somebody who photographs weddings, I've seen my photos being used at Oh, yeah. not that I've been to funerals, but I've seen, some of my past clients post photos of loved ones who they've lost and the best photo

Jenny Stein: 43:02

they have of that person

Raymond Hatfield: 43:03

is one that you took at the wedding. Yeah. And I think that the first time that I saw that, I wasn't ready for that. Yeah. Because I remember all that I remember of that person was that day and how happy they were and what it meant for them to be there for that couple. and having known nothing else of that person, but that, it made me, I don't wanna say it made me feel happy, but it made me feel as if I've helped in some small way. Yeah. to this couple. And it was only because I quote, press the button on my camera, you know what I mean? And like, that's it essentially. And now because of that difficult situation that they had, they're able to maybe not put it to rest but perhaps in some strange way have a little bit of closure,

Jenny Stein: 43:49

you know? Well, or at, at least I think, and not even that much, but I think that at the very least, it's just really nice to have a good picture of someone that's gone. Like, 'cause sometimes, like I was super happy that the picture that I had taken of my grandmother was her obituary picture. 'cause it was a really nice picture. Like, sometimes you look through obituary pictures and you're like, oh man, oh

Raymond Hatfield: 44:06

yeah. Like in, in the bed or something like that. Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 44:09

You know, or No, it's just sort of like, clearly like just this. They tried to find anything they could, you know, it's nice when there's a good picture and I think that if anyone does photos of, for any length of time that focus on people, I mean, after a while, if you're taking photos, even if it's just you're not a professional, you're taking photos of your extended family or your people in your neighborhood, you're gonna be the person who has the photo that they wanna use at a service when someone dies. I mean, it's just gonna happen. Mm-hmm. Because they'll look at the photos, they'll be be like, yeah, this is the best one we have. And I, yeah, I've definitely had that happen too. To be at a service where that's where the picture that's up is

Raymond Hatfield: 44:49

it's powerful. It has to be powerful. Yeah. Especially to see it printed. But I wanna bring up something that, doesn't have to do with death, but still has to do with a difficult loss, which is your conversation that you had with Rin Rose Sealy. Oh yeah. All about her work with dementia patients. Yes. And she said a quote, again, I wrote these down because these are just like really powerful things for me. And what she said is that we can't keep living like we were. And that's what's really difficult for some people, right? Yeah. And it's, it's being this person who you thought maybe you would be, or remembering those days that you had, where you were, everything. You know, the as, as Bruce Springsteen would say, your glory days.

Jenny Stein: 45:28

Right. Right. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 45:29

Having those and now you don't.

Jenny Stein: 45:32

Mm-hmm.

Raymond Hatfield: 45:32

And how she uses photography to help help those and bring people back to those days. Can you kind of speak to that a little bit?

Jenny Stein: 45:41

Oh, I thought that was, I loved, that idea of a different way of using photography. Like not, thinking of, and because some of, I don't know if you remember from the interview, sometimes it wasn't even a photo from there, like a quilt or it could just be something that, that just. Just imagery, jogging your memory. Sometimes she'd just be like, it would be a picture of a bird and she'd be able to then talk about experiences that they had, you know, with whatever, you know? Yeah. But then other, other times, just letting them go back into that time. If it was a photo, she told a story of someone who just carried a photo around and would just talk about that photo. Mm-hmm. Um, and then someone else being like, oh, he tells that story all the time, but it's like when he's telling it, he could be right there. So, yeah. I love that idea of photography being so useful in different ways and I just, I thought her, the way she used it was a great example of a lady's photography and it was different than someone who's taking photographs all the time. Although she is someone who takes a lot of photographs. But, just to think about letting them be a doorway into something else for people.

Raymond Hatfield: 46:45

Do you think that's hard to truly grasp the power of, as somebody who takes a lot of photos, do you think that it ever just kind of gets lost in the, well, this is my life. I just take photos. Like, I get it, I understand it, it becomes normal compared to somebody who maybe doesn't have a lot of photos.

Jenny Stein: 47:04

I, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. it's funny now 'cause I feel like there's, who is that? That doesn't have a lot of photos?

Raymond Hatfield: 47:11

Well, I guess no, I mean, that's a good question.

Jenny Stein: 47:13

It, it's a good question. Which changed over time, I feel like, because now, people take photos so much. Mm-hmm. Even people who don't think of themselves in any capacity as a photographer, because people carry cameras around with them all the time.

Raymond Hatfield: 47:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jenny Stein: 47:27

So it's different. But, yeah, I don't, I don't know, I dunno an answer to that.

Raymond Hatfield: 47:31

I'm trying to think of now. I mean, yeah, that's a very valid point. I guess we are all taking different photos and it really doesn't matter the medium in which we're using to capture those photos. It doesn't really matter the medium in which we're using to view those photos. Because I suppose ultimately if you're just, I think of my mom and my mom doesn't really take a lot of photos at all. In fact, I set up her phone to automatically back up to like, we have this little home server thing just to make sure that she doesn't lose any photos that she has or whatever. And, I was looking at them the other day and it's just like a photo of a cactus that she has out in her backyard. She lives in Arizona and it's like a photo of a quilt, that she made. And, she doesn't really use it in the same sense that we do to either in like an artistic light. but it's just to remember something. So even, even though she's not taking photos every single day, the photos that she does take mean a lot to her. Yeah. You know, I don't know where I was going with that, but, uh, no, I

Jenny Stein: 48:27

think it's interesting. Well, it's telling you when people. It tells you a lot about somebody's attention, like what they're paying attention to.

Raymond Hatfield: 48:34

Ah, yeah.

Jenny Stein: 48:34

Whatever they're taking photos of. And, but I, and I do think there, I mean, there's so many different ways to use photography and I think sometimes I use it, like, I think of a parallel with writing. Like if you think about writing, everybody writes, whether it's just writing a grocery list or writing a journal entry or writing a short story. Like there's all these different levels of what you can do with writing. I mean, I had a friend I didn't even realize, like, think about someone who's a technical writer who just like, they say, write a manual about how to use this. And she's like, okay, will do. You know what I mean? Like, it just,

Raymond Hatfield: 49:04

I just wanna pull my hair out thinking about that.

Jenny Stein: 49:06

Well, so, but, but think about that. Like, I had a friend who, was a photographer, she was a fine art photographer this years ago, but her day job was photographing, like for an ophthalmologist, like people's retinas.

Raymond Hatfield: 49:18

Oh wow.

Jenny Stein: 49:19

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, so she had a job in photography, but I mean, it was like, so think about all the different ways. I just, when I came over to where I was, I'm recording this in my neighbor's house 'cause that's where all my recording equipment is. And I, my daughter had her appendix out this summer, and as I was getting ready, I like saw the photographs from her surgery, like laying there, you know, like there's this, like, here's her appendix. And, and so like, think about, I mean, that's a way, like all these different things that people are using photography for, and I think the kind of photography that we're talking about is, more like the, someone who's writing, it's really expressive photography is, you know, like someone who's writing about their experience in some ways or recording it for, so like you're with your wedding photography, you're recording it for somebody else, but it is even with wedding photography, what you are paying attention to, says something about you. Like what you notice at a wedding Absolutely. Is gonna be what. you know, to pause, to take a photo of, so I,

Raymond Hatfield: 50:15

regardless of whatever it is that the couple wants me to shoot, you know what I mean? Right. I mean, I hate to say that in like a negative way, but, I mean, you're absolutely right. Like I'm the one taking the photos.

Jenny Stein: 50:24

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 50:24

I'm the one in charge of what gets captured and what doesn't, you know, barring me and also what gets

Jenny Stein: 50:29

what gets thrown away.

Raymond Hatfield: 50:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's something that I struggled with a lot in the beginning, recently I talked with a, a headshot photographer, and when you think of headshot, to me at least there's always like these micro adjustments, like chin up just a little bit and like head down, eyes down, you know, just make these tiny micro adjustments. Yeah. and I asked the question, which is like, why do you do that? like, is that gonna make the photo like so much better? And what he said was, you don't know how that person sees themself. and it's entirely possible just that, just like the chin down a little bit and the eyes up a little higher doesn't make it a better photo, but to them, they like the way that they look a little bit better. Mm. And I was like, oh, wow. Like now I'm kind of a jerk for like, insinuating like, what are you doing? Right, right. Um, and yeah, like when it comes to calling out images, I'm kind of the same way where it's like, this one's technically a better photo, but this one maybe has a better reaction in it. Yeah. Like in a more expressive shot. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, what do I do here? Right. And I think that over time you figure that out, you figure out that happy medium. But in the beginning that was very hard for me. But, another one of the things, again, we're talking about dealing with the difficult, right? Yeah. Yeah. And you had an interview with Chris Orig, who I. Amazingly got to meet. You talked him too, right? I, I did. And I just got to meet him at imaging. And he is, have you ever had the chance to

Jenny Stein: 51:46

meet? No, no. I've spoken with him a few times and I just love him.

Raymond Hatfield: 51:50

He is, everybody go out and get

Jenny Stein: 51:51

his book.

Raymond Hatfield: 51:52

Oh, I just, in fact, I, uh, you're like, I have one right here. I do. I asked him because the reason why he was there he was kind of promoting the book and look at this thing. It is a book. Oh, wow. I mean, this isn't a pamphlet. Yeah. This isn't something small. It is a book. It is a novel. And, I'm so grateful that I was able to, uh, get it from him and he signed it for me and he was just one of the kindest, most genuine people you'll meet, you know what I mean? Like, you see people online and you hope that they're as nice as they are in person, as they're online. He's like a hundred times nicer in person. Like he tones it down for the internet, which is great. But, part of your interview I found really fascinating because he talks about falling out of love with what it is that he did. And to me, that has to be difficult. If you have spent, you've essentially created your identity around what it is that you do. We all do. Right, right. When you ask, you know, you ask somebody their name, when you get introduced, like, Hey, I am Raymond. Like, oh great, what do you do? You know, that's almost the like natural progression of questions. Mm-hmm. And you have this sort of identity. And when you lose that, that's just gotta be, so disconnecting, I guess, from who it is that you are. Have you ever faced anything remotely similar. Has there ever been a time to where you almost resented the camera?

Jenny Stein: 53:09

Ah, that's a good question. I just need a second to think. 'cause there's different things. Like what I was gonna say right away was, so when I think about, well, I worried a lot that if I started to do a business and get paid to do photography, it really worried me that it would ruin it for me.

Raymond Hatfield: 53:23

A lot of people worry about that. Yeah. Did did you find that to be true?

Jenny Stein: 53:28

Somewhat.

Raymond Hatfield: 53:28

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 53:28

But it, it didn't ruin it entirely. And it's actually gotten better now. But I feel like, what it was, was the. It does change a lot when people are, there's a different expectation if you're just kind of taking a photo for you or for your friends. And then if somebody's asking you for a certain kind of photo and then like, did you do it? Did you not do it? You know?

Raymond Hatfield: 53:48

Yeah. Like

Jenny Stein: 53:48

that sort of thing. There were different things I worked because, but I remember asking photographers that question, so it was well before I did the podcast, just photographers in that I knew, one that I liked in Pittsburgh. I remember I liked her work and then I met her for some reason and I was like, do you still like, she's like, oh, I love it even more. Like, she was all excited. So different people go different ways about it. I think I got really, I'm in a place now that's really good where I wanna do all kinds of different, I did two weddings. So since we talked, I don't remember last time when we talked what I was, if I was paying, I don't think I was doing a lot of, with my photography business was I. I can't

Raymond Hatfield: 54:23

remember. I can't, I, I don't think that we touched on that too much. Maybe

Jenny Stein: 54:26

we didn't talk about it, but because that now I've really, because my youngest is a little older, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna really start devoting time to this.

Raymond Hatfield: 54:33

Yes.

Jenny Stein: 54:33

And then I thought, I just love doing portraits. That's all I wanna do. And then I happened to do two weddings this summer, and I was, I felt like someone else was telling me, oh, she does some, photography education. And she told me how much she made by doing a whole class. And I was like, oh, I'd, I'd rather shoot a wedding. Mm-hmm. Like, you could make the same amount in just a day, not really just a day. You know, it's not just, yeah,

Raymond Hatfield: 54:54

yeah, yeah.

Jenny Stein: 54:55

But do you know what I mean? I felt like it, I realized doing these weddings that I liked, weddings, like they're a long day, but I love the energy and how much, is going on at a wedding. And so I went, so what I'm saying with my, this is, goes back to your question of like, for a while I felt like I only wanna photograph things I really like. And now I'm like, I only want, I just wanna put, I would like to get paid. And so what can I do that I'm good at that I get paid at? And so I'm doing more things.

Raymond Hatfield: 55:22

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 55:22

But I'm liking them. as far as like my personal photography, I think the idea of resenting, I did get to a point when I was, there have been times where I've been feeling like I don't, the worst. I think if I'm going through a hard time for an extended period of time, like more than a day, say a couple bad months. And I had a period of time where I was just like, I don't want to remember this.

Raymond Hatfield: 55:47

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 55:48

And I don't know if I take a picture of my girl laughing at the same time, I'm going through this really hard thing, like the laughing doesn't even seem true. Like that felt just like it was pretty dark. Yeah. So I feel like, but. That said, I feel like taking pictures did help anyway, but there sometimes it would feel like that. Like, I don't wanna remember this, or what's true, like if I'm take, and I don't even mean true to an audience, I just mean true to like taking a photo and saying if this is the photo of the day and it really has been a pretty terrible day and I am posting a photo of my kid laughing in the snow. Like, what is that about? And it's still a question I have. Yeah. You know, like, what, 'cause how do you, like sometimes stuff is really in inward and how do you even take a picture of it anyway, like your experience of something. And I now think more of it as like there's those things are happening simultaneously. Like you are having, like, your heart's breaking in one way and yet your kid is still laughing out in the snow and that's gorgeous. And so it's helped me hold them both at the same time. But there have been times that. I haven't wanted to take a picture. 'cause I'm like too angry, I think, to just be like this, just, I don't even wanna remember this time and I don't wanna pretend like it was fine,

Raymond Hatfield: 57:05

But is it about pretending that it's fine because, no,

Jenny Stein: 57:08

see, that's the thing. I realized it wasn't, that's the story I tell in my head. But then if I actually push through it and take photos and you're going, no, those two things are happening at the same time.

Raymond Hatfield: 57:17

I'm thinking back to your interview with Troy Kolby and the, the whole interview, I believe was called The Fragility of Fatherhood. Yeah. That's his project that he does. Yeah. Oh, that's right. And he talks a lot about not taking positive images. Yeah. and I believe it was you who said like, if I saw an image of yours that was just like, happy and carefree, it would feel very weird. Yeah. So do you think that being in a situation where, you know you're not feeling good, but your kids are having a great time, do you think that those are mutually exclusive?

Jenny Stein: 57:47

Yeah. No, I think that, yeah, both things like it is, it's just happening. that's what's happening,

Raymond Hatfield: 57:52

you know? Okay. So then let me figure out this question. So then do you think that it's your style of photography that doesn't want you to take a photo of something difficult or,

Jenny Stein: 58:03

I think, I don't know how. Okay. There's some things that are just like, it's hard to think how do I take a picture of something that's not vis like, I haven't figured out how to necessarily take a photo of the thing. Mm-hmm. You know, those things. I was also thinking, this was to go back, you, we talked about trend Rose Sealey.

Raymond Hatfield: 58:21

Yes.

Jenny Stein: 58:21

she talks in that, and I loved this about her, something that happened in their family is that her, she had a brother, the middle brother in their family was sick and died and she talked about there being pictures of during that time. Mm-hmm. Like them playing. And that was neat for her to see. Oh, like, 'cause she'll just think back maybe on her childhood and think, oh, that's when Martin was dying. But she's like, and we were biking out in the yard too. Right. You know, and that's an example of, yeah. Like, your brother is sick and these other things are happening too. And so to somehow hold them both, is the trick. Right. And I don't think it's a trick I figured out partly. 'cause I, I'm not great at photographing. I'm good at writing in a journal just for myself. Mm-hmm. And I'm not really good at photographing just for myself. And that actually maybe is what I'm gonna learn from this photo, this interview from you. Interesting. With this, like, I'm realizing, I'm like, oh wait, 'cause it takes for me to, to take photo, it's one thing to take a photo, but to finish a photo and put it somewhere. I'm much better at that when I'm doing it with other people.

Raymond Hatfield: 59:22

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 59:23

So when I'm doing a project or there's some reason to, I'm much better at being organized and putting it somewhere. But if I'm just taking a photo, I did, I have a folder, but I think there was like one photo in it. There was a picture I took of my daughter nursing and it was just a little too, like I looked, I showed it to my older daughter. I'm like, is this too? Like, I can't post this. She's like, yeah, no, you can't post that. That's

Raymond Hatfield: 59:45

no mom. I can't have my friend seeing this. Yeah. She's

Jenny Stein: 59:47

like, no, that's not. But I loved it. Like it was really, so to remember that there's those photos, but that there's has to, I don't have a discipline around making those photos, even though nobody, I guess it's the idea of making photos that nobody's gonna see that are really just for me, I'm not really good at that. and maybe, I'm thinking now as we're talking, that if I explored that, I'd probably get to a point where there were a kind that I could share that were more about the inner experience I was having.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:00:15

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 1:00:16

But I think probably doing them that I didn't have to worry about explaining. Now in my project that I did in 2016, I know when I was having hard days, I would take a macro photo and just post a poem with it. It's really interesting that when I look back I can see I'm like, oh, that was a bad day. Um, you know. Oh

Raymond Hatfield: 1:00:33

yeah, yeah, yeah. And

Jenny Stein: 1:00:34

I did have a way of doing it then, in that way is I would kind of try to, and usually it was a photo of like a plant or something that would be just sort of, 'cause I didn't wanna take a picture of laughing kids that day. Sure. You know, I was feeling bad.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:00:47

Well then I guess, I guess the ultimate question really, because if, you said that you, are really good at expressing yourself through writing Yeah. For personal work. Is do you even want to get better at taking personal photos for yourself?

Jenny Stein: 1:01:01

Yeah, I do.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:01:02

You do?

Jenny Stein: 1:01:03

I do. 'cause it would be nice because I love photography so much. I think that it would be nice to be able to use it in that way. Mm-hmm. I just feel like it's a way that I really. I just really love looking. I, there's something I love about looking at photos. I think there's something so quick about it in a way, which is, it can capture, you just look at it instead of, you know, you have to, I don't know. I just, I do like it.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:01:27

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I do

Jenny Stein: 1:01:28

feel like I would like to, and also to be able to integrate it more into, if I think of my 365 or wherever I'm posting my photos and collecting them and then making them into a book, hopefully, I feel like I would like it to have that depth, of acknowledging that not, on the same day that somebody's. This is happening, this is also happening. Or, that there's a mix of experience that going on.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:01:51

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 1:01:51

And I think that when Troy Colby, I mean, I loved how much he was just like, ah, I cannot stand the idealism of par, like idealizing parenting.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:01:59

Yep. I

Jenny Stein: 1:01:59

loved that because, but then I'm like, but do I, you know what I mean? I mean, I think it's so great, but I'm like, how good am I at

Raymond Hatfield: 1:02:07

say, yeah, this was, well, I think that just goes back to the whole using it as an archival tool, because it's like, what makes you happy is perhaps your kids laughing, you know? Right. And listening to that belly laugh, you know what I mean? Because it's just so infectious. Right. And having something that you can capture will bring you back to that moment, you know? Yeah. And that is, I don't think that that's, making parenting seem as if it's the best thing in the world. It's just as a way that you keep that 2-year-old alive forever, no matter how old they are, you know? Yep.

Jenny Stein: 1:02:40

I think it's too, I mean, it's, it's not just with your family. I think it's really interesting that it's not, and I don't think I realized that when I had little kids. It did feel like it was all my story.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:02:49

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 1:02:49

But as they get older, you're like, it's not just my story.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:02:54

Right.

Jenny Stein: 1:02:54

everybody has their own story going on and everyone's experiencing something different and so it feels like, how do I just tell my part of it? And it's just a question.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:03:03

Yeah. It's tough. It's tough. So this will be in my final question for you. Okay. Actually, I take that back. I got one more after this. Okay. Okay. Actually I got five more after that. Right, right, right, right. so after all of season two, after you've spoke with, so many great photographers talking about making the world a better place, ultimately through dealing with the difficult, what can you share about how to make the world a better place with our photography?

Jenny Stein: 1:03:29

Oh, that's a good question. I think I, it's different for everybody is a thing. It's not just one thing. And my daughter, it's interesting. So my youngest brother is a steady cam operator and does some film work and he does some other stuff and she was really excited and saying, I wanna do that.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:03:46

she wants to be a steady chem operator.

Jenny Stein: 1:03:48

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:03:48

Oh, they have the worst backs. Oh my gosh.

Jenny Stein: 1:03:50

I know he does have to do a lot of, yeah, yeah. I know. He does a lot to keep in in anyway, so, but then she was like, well, but I really wanna do something that helps people. It's interesting that she said that. So she and I said, well, think about all of the, my brother's done work, but also just all of the ways that you see people, like you see things that you wouldn't have seen otherwise because of some really great filmmaking, so filmmaking can really help people. So that's sort of, but I think that, I mean, it just. it depends on what you are doing with your photography. And it, I think also if it can help, like how does it help you, how does it help other people? How does it help you? And just to realize that photography can be a helping tool. But I think, so for, for me, I'm actually really surprised and I, oh, here's another thing you might not know. It might be really surprising to you how your photography helps people. I do, with my 360 fives starting last year, and now I'm doing it again this year, I send an email out to a group of, I just have a list of, they're like my mom and my dad and my sisters and my brothers and my neighbors. And then people that listen to the po There's a different, you know, but it's a small group of people that I send a daily, almost daily photo out to. And I, so many people thank me for those photos

Raymond Hatfield: 1:05:07

of your life. Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 1:05:10

And they're just like me. Seeing you see something nice about your day reminds me to see something nice about my day.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:05:16

Wow.

Jenny Stein: 1:05:17

Or just whatever it is. and they're all people that I know. I mean, it's what they, and one thing about email that's really nice, is I get emails back. It's not like comments on a photo. Mm-hmm. So people can write more personal things when they're writing back to me for. Right. It's really nice.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:05:32

I like that idea.

Jenny Stein: 1:05:33

Oh, it's so good. It just kind of happened and it's great. I mean, it's nice too. You just feel connected. That's something that you missed. Like I sent out, I hadn't sent an email for a week, and then I sent one out yesterday and I got like five or six emails back. You know, my brother just being like, great to see your photos again. Or, you know, it's just really, really, really nice. And, um, so you just don't always know how it's gonna help people. But I feel like if you're coming from a place that's, if you're coming from a good place and wanting to. express something that's good and, loving and I don't only good, it doesn't have to be not difficult. Do you know what I mean? Yes. But just if you're coming from a, a good place, like if you think about different wedding photographers, for instance, you can see the photographer who you kind of imagine is a lot about themselves and a lot about making photos that are gonna be great for their portfolio. Mm-hmm. They wanna make sure the bride and groom do X, Y, and Z. You know what I mean? Like, they're just, I might be making that up. I don't know if people really like that, but then you, they are so much,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:06:27

you're, you're right on the money. Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 1:06:29

And then there's some that are just like, I just wanna make your day the best it can be. And I want you to have great photos to remember. I want you to have pictures of your family. I want you to have pictures of your guests. I just want this to be great for you. Right. So they're both doing the same thing, but they're coming from a different place. Mm-hmm. So I think if you come from a place where you're starting in a place of really caring with your, you know, with your camera and you're thinking about, for whatever reason, there's some kind of caring behind it, then you'll, it will just help people.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:07:00

I can't really think of a better way to end this podcast than that. Right there. Just trying to be helpful. Trying to be kind, coming from it, coming at it from the right place is, like you said, it's so important and it really does change all of it. It really changes all of it. gotta say publicly here that once again, season two of your podcast Family Photographer podcast is, is some of my favorite listening of all time. And I have to thank you. You thank so much. That means a lot to me for that. And I have to tell you that I'm also very excited for season three. And so my last question here is can you give us any sort of information as far as to what's coming out in season three? And if so, please share how we can find it.

Jenny Stein: 1:07:42

Okay. Well, it's not gonna be until September.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:07:44

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 1:07:44

I'm actually getting a little smarter finally about planning ahead because I was season two. I was so, so I still have two episodes to release from season two. Mm-hmm. So when my daughter had her appendix talk about like things getting all like

Raymond Hatfield: 1:07:57

in the way.

Jenny Stein: 1:07:58

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:07:58

Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 1:07:59

And then it's hard if you think about like space just closing in. Do you know what I mean? Like I, so I was, I foolishly started putting out the podcast and was gonna continue putting it out through the summer.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:08:08

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 1:08:09

And what was I thinking? I mean, the summer's the worst time you to try to do something when you have a family. So I was struggling to get it out over the summer and then my daughter had her appendix out and it just totally, she was totally fine, by the way, when I say that, it's like, but we were in the hospital for five nights, so that's exhausting stuff. even though she was, she actually on a side note thinks back on having her appendix out other than having an IV and because she doesn't remember the surgery. So she's just like, other than the IV and the pain of her appendix, she like thinks back on it fondly.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:08:42

I know, it's great. Well, how, because it was just like downtime.

Jenny Stein: 1:08:46

Okay. Fourth child of five gets mother to herself. Oh, I see. There you go.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:08:53

That answers it right there.

Jenny Stein: 1:08:54

I wanted her to watch TV and play on the Xbox. 'cause there's this one day she, the day after the surgery, she was so miserable and she'll even talk to me, she'll be like, remember that day you wanted me to play on the Xbox? So I was like, look,

Raymond Hatfield: 1:09:05

I just wanted you to be quiet. You were crying. So I just

Jenny Stein: 1:09:07

wanted her to feel like I wanted her to seem like herself. Uhhuh. I'm like, too, do you wanna do this? Like she was so that one day was bad. Anyway, So I actually still have two more episodes from that, that I've recorded, that I haven't put out, that I haven't put out that I'm making. I have to finish up and get out, and then I'm gonna just get everything ready instead of trying. I've always, when I've done the podcast, I've always been recording and putting out shows at the same time.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:09:30

Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stein: 1:09:30

I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, that's

Raymond Hatfield: 1:09:31

difficult. That's very difficult to do. Yeah.

Jenny Stein: 1:09:33

So I'm gonna record them all before I start putting things out. So just, and it actually, I'm doing coaching with Kristin Kalp and it actually was, which is fantastic. I mean, I cannot tell you how great it is. I'm working on my website and I'll send her a page and she'll send stuff back. I mean, it's fabulous. So she talked in one of her group calls that we did with the coaching is that she talked about starting where you at the end and working back. So I actually started, I was like, okay, so I want to do a fall season of the show. 'cause that's when things like the routine starts, it's a good time to put out shows. So if I wanna, like I kind of worked all the way back mm-hmm. To figure out when I'd have to start doing interviews, which is soon. Um, which is funny to think that I'll be doing. But, and, um, as far as the focus of the podcast, I'm not really sure. I think that, it will be as always not focused on gear and focused on personal photography more than anything else. I mean, I feel like I love talking about gear just as much as the other person, but I, that's just not the major focus. And then also it's really usually the, what does photography mean to you? How do you use it in your life? And in some ways it's people who, you know, whatever people do with it. But I, uh, the people who I'm drawn to, to talk to or people who, I think I see photographs that are, just, I feel like they're really expressing something mm-hmm. In their photos. And I love, that's one of the things I love about doing the podcast is just like finding people to interview. It's so fun, you know? Yeah. it's fun to go to think of, like, see somebody's work and be like, oh, I have a reason to contact them. I'll, yeah. You know what I mean? It's really so fun. So that, I love doing the interviews so much that, that's sort of one thing I did with the, when I was doing the second season, is I actually wrote a checklist of how much goes into a podcast episode, getting one out, timewise, timewise, and also just a list. Mm-hmm. Number wise. And I realized that I wasn't very realistic. Like I thought to myself, you schedule an interview, record an interview, yay, done that. I'm like, oh, there are a lot more steps to have a good, so that was a really good exercise for me just to realize that season two was, it also about the realisticness of like, how much time does this take? And, but I also, I told Kristen in coaching with her at one point, she was like, what about the podcast in 2020? And I was like, yeah, no, it doesn't make money. Forget it. I'm not gonna do it. Let's move on. what are we gonna do? And you know what, I, it was this real short

Raymond Hatfield: 1:11:52

mm-hmm

Jenny Stein: 1:11:52

thing. I talked to her and then we were on a group call and she's like, does anybody have any questions? Jen, you have any questions? I'm like, no, I'm good. Well, actually no. I said I had to be here

Raymond Hatfield: 1:12:03

for another hour.

Jenny Stein: 1:12:03

I know. I said I didn't wanna do the podcast anymore because of this, but it really is something I love. Yeah. She's like, yeah, she's like, you and podcasting go really well together. Let's work out what to do. So anyway, so I'm working on, on doing that. And so I'm, I'm actually really, so September, so there'll be 12 episodes in the fall.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:12:21

Mm-hmm. Well, I'm excited. I cannot wait to see what it is that you produce and what you put out because, as you said, talking about gear is fun, but that doesn't really get to the heart of what it is that goes into a good or a meaningful photo. And when there's so much that goes into photography, I really think that you're having the conversations that need to be had in the world of photography that are actually important. So, once again, I have to say thank you so much for, your show and, thank you so much for coming on. And before I let you go, do you wanna share where everybody can find you online.

Jenny Stein: 1:12:55

Sure. the podcast you can find@thefamilyphotographer.net. and then you can find it on iTunes and other places like that. I'm not sure. I. I don't think it's not in Spotify for some reason I couldn't get it there, but, um, or I didn't, whatever. So anyway, you can find it on iTunes and other places that you find podcasts. And then on Instagram, which I don't post super often, but there's information about the podcast there. And that's Jenny, J-E-N-N-Y two underscores. Stein, S-T-E-I-N. And then, uh, there's a page on Facebook for it. And, uh, that's that.

Raymond Hatfield: 1:13:27

Thank you for tuning into this week's episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with a friend. Start a conversation, grow together. That is it for this week. Remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you'll be tomorrow. Talk soon.

Jenny Stein: 1:13:43

Thank you for listening to The Beginner Photography Podcast. Keep shooting and we'll see you next week.